The Criterion Collection

[lazy_maze]

Respect the opinion of others.Yes.

May I add:
Movie viewing should be an educational one, Education in what sense? Let the movie lover learn from what he's been watching. Let him watch all the "The Rock", "Con Air" type of flicks. Maybe he'll get tired of it , or maybe he won't. But if he does, then he might try watching other "meaningful" flicks. Maybe he'll watch "Seven Samurai" and might say "Hey, this is what I like now, I'll watch more of this type of flicks". Or he might say "I think I'll stick to my The Rock type of flicks." And possibly, he might like them both. Either way, he pleases only himself.

It's about pleasing yourself,man. If it pleases you, go for it.

And for all of us, let us respect the pleasures of others.  

[dongkhoi]

Respect the opinion of others.Yes.

May I add:
Movie viewing should be an educational one, Education in what sense? Let the movie lover learn from what he's been watching. Let him watch all the "The Rock", "Con Air" type of flicks. Maybe he'll get tired of it , or maybe he won't. But if he does, then he might try watching other "meaningful" flicks. Maybe he'll watch "Seven Samurai" and might say "Hey, this is what I like now, I'll watch more of this type of flicks". Or he might say "I think I'll stick to my The Rock type of flicks." And possibly, he might like them both. Either way, he pleases only himself.

It's about pleasing yourself,man. If it pleases you, go for it.

And for all of us, let us respect the pleasures of others.  

I agree, we are not here to judge other people's opinion or preference on movies. The main reason we watch movies is for entertainment. Others may have a different reason and I respect them hoping they respect mine.

If I want to be educated, I 'll study or go to school or learn from others. If I want a great story, there are books to read and people to talk to. But if I want to be entertained, there are videogames, sports, bars, concerts, discos, etc. and there are movies too. Some movies that I like may not be appealing to others and vise versa but at the end we are both happy with our choices.

[flyderman]

Let me just voice out my opinion about this issue:

THE ROCK ROCKS!!!  


(but that didn't stop me from enjoying Seven Samurai)

PS Where can I buy Stanley Godspeed action figures?  Me want one...

[weddingsingr]

Just check out the thread on rare and expensive DVDs. You'll see how Criterion Collection DVDs may eventaully pay off.

OK rin pa lang investment ang mga CC na DVDs.

[danzig]

I agree with that, except that it costs too much time and money to go through that process. There are many more works in the Criterion collection worth buying, and you can always buy a cheaper version of _The Rock_.

Respect the opinion of others.Yes.

May I add:
Movie viewing should be an educational one, Education in what sense? Let the movie lover learn from what he's been watching. Let him watch all the "The Rock", "Con Air" type of flicks. Maybe he'll get tired of it , or maybe he won't. But if he does, then he might try watching other "meaningful" flicks. Maybe he'll watch "Seven Samurai" and might say "Hey, this is what I like now, I'll watch more of this type of flicks". Or he might say "I think I'll stick to my The Rock type of flicks." And possibly, he might like them both. Either way, he pleases only himself.

It's about pleasing yourself,man. If it pleases you, go for it.

And for all of us, let us respect the pleasures of others.  

[danzig]

But can't you find great stories in films as well?

I agree, we are not here to judge other people's opinion or preference on movies. The main reason we watch movies is for entertainment. Others may have a different reason and I respect them hoping they respect mine.

If I want to be educated, I 'll study or go to school or learn from others. If I want a great story, there are books to read and people to talk to. But if I want to be entertained, there are videogames, sports, bars, concerts, discos, etc. and there are movies too. Some movies that I like may not be appealing to others and vise versa but at the end we are both happy with our choices.

[danzig]

Indeed! Some of my favorite films include _Army of Darkness_, _The Road Warrior_, _Highlander 1_, and even apocalyptic fare such as _The Omega Man_, _Soylent Green_, and _Logan's Run_.

However, because of chronic economic crisis in our country, I try to select wisely, so for my next order, I hope I can get _The Passion of Joan of Arc_, _M_, and the 1926 version of _Faust_. I know it sounds silly, getting films that are technically not worth getting in DVD form, but I'm looking for works that are entertaining, reflective or philosophical, not available locally, can be seen over and over again, that are aesthetically pleasing, and that come in a durable format for repeated viewing (hence, DVD and Criterion). My fear is that the peso might devalue further, petrol prices might increase, and my final purchase might end up as a foolhardy attempt, when I should have saved the money for basic needs. It's just that I have this unusual addiction to show what I believe are the finest films to others (especially to my students!) before things hit the fan.

As for my other addiction, that's fast disappearing. There was a time when I would have had no second thoughts about buying, say, "Porky's" I and II, Cheech and Chong movies (which, by the way, are now available locally), and a Superman box set, but as I now have a tendency to choose works like _Five Easy Pieces_ or the _The Last Detail_ over any of these, I guess exposure to finer films does warp the mind somewhat.

yEP!Absolutely right!Live and let live!I agree with DANZIG about the fine points of collecting!But I see no reason why we can't indulge in some guilty pleasures! I have the HIGHLANDER 1& 2 and some other cheesy flicks!But no mistake I don't think that their high art or anything! I see them for what they're really worth!Just for a laugh and few snickers!And i dont go around the posts bandying around that this chessy flicks are the greatset invention since slice bread!          

[danzig]

Well, perhaps it's not to show off, but to remember that we live in a very poor country where anything that the rich does the poor tend to emulate. I am sure that you aware of this, as you note our political crisis and the growing antagonism between rich and poor.

I'd like to add that I do not fashion myself as a crusader for the poor or an elitist. I'm just a teacher who sincerely believes that all Filipinos are movie buffs, but rich movie buffs can become more than buffs, and better, influence others to do the same.

Finally, I'd like to repeat that I'm not forcing anyone to believe in what I support. But I do appeal to your intelligence and aesthetic sensibility.

"When I watch a movie, I want to be entertained, not study it; I patronize art, not critique it."

Right on ekime! Watching movies is all about being entertained for a few hours. This is true whether you're watching Seven Samurai or The Rock. Purchasing DVDs should be an extension of this rationale.

Limiting one's purchases to critically acclaimed movies is laudable, but I hope the justification is to maxmize one's limited resources and not because one just wants to impress his friends of his "cultured" tastes in movies.

IMHO, a true movie buff loves all types of movies, from the critically-acclaimed, award winning, AFI top 100 gold-plated classics, to generic, D-movie grade stuff.

(If you were offended by this post ... pikon ka!)

[danzig]

I assure you, I don't want to start a fight. The moderator can always kick me out, and I don't want to antagonize him.

I do want to add, though, that although I am not a Michael Bey fan, I am a Jackie Chan fan. It just so happens that because I watch too many so-called "artistic" films (works by Brocka, Bergman, de Sica, Truffaut, Pekinpah) I am beginning to spend less and less time watching contemporary Hollywood blockbusters.

Boy Oh Boy! Can't wait for that Dvd viewing thing! It's going to be a vicous rumble between the SEVENTH SEALERS  and the ROCK! (( Sounds like a wrestling match straight out of WESTSIDE STORY!)Who's gonna bring the ice picks? Bet its the MICHAEL BAY BOYS!And the Bergman team...uhm swedish cupcakes anyone? Come on people no hostilities here!Im sure Danzig is just talking in a rhetorical sense. He doesn't mean anything degrading over it!There's no room for crapING PROFANITIES ! OK! WE ARE ALL CIVILIZED GENTLEMEN!      

[danzig]

I know I shouldn't be saying this, and I hope you don't get mad, but don't you sometimes feel that you live in a Third World country and that you sense that you need to give something back to the fatherland, no matter how small?

Again, I understand that it's your money, and like me, you're probably even paying taxes, and I have no right to order you around, but don't you think that there might be a close connection between, say, the decline of high culture (whether in the form of southern Filipino epics, our failure to restore Filipino films from the past, and probably even reading), the rise of Americanized culture (Hollywood movies, malls, professional basketball, computer games), the decline of Philippine education (we're ranked last place in science and math in Asia, and we can't even pass our own national elementary and secondary exams, let alone licensure exams), and increased spending on entertainment by Filipinos, if not political decisions and even role models built on showbiz and pro sports stereotypes?

It's more likely a far-fetched idea, but if we encourage ourselves not to be too obsessed with American Hollywood blockbusters and seek the best that other countries might offer, might this influence others to do the same, and thus lessen the problems above?

I want to jump on the bandwagon and say this : It's MY money .. and that said, I can do whatever I want to do with it, buy whatever garbage there is that I want to buy. Did my choice of dvds make me seem shallow or dumb or stupid in the eyes of others ? Maybe, maybe not. Does it matter ? It SHOULD only matter to me. If that will make me happy, even for a moment, then it has served its purpose. Those other scrutinizing eyes will not make me happy. I cannot take the dvds (dumb selections or not) when I die anyway, with so short time, I'm just gonna have fun whatever way I can.  I don't care what other people do with theirs so I hope those other people wouldn't care either what I do with mine. Tata !  

[danzig]

You know, our hero Rizal used to think the same thing. He often valued perfection in anything he did.

Germans and Japanese also possess similar characteristics in terms of precision in the work place. The Japanese, for example, will spend seventy percent of the time for planning and will not execute a project unless they are sure it has the least number of flaws. Even some companies follow "zero defects" as a goal.

Perhaps Kurosawa is not in bad company. From what I remember, Kubrick and probably Sam Pekinpah followed similar principles.

Easy now, can't we all just get along?    

Anyway, I think Danzig is only expressing an opinion, which some of us hoped he should have kept to himself.    

When I watch a movie, I want to be entertained, not study it;  I patronize art, not critique it.   I remember one story about the filming of the Seven Samurais.  It seems that the scene where a Samurai was walking nonchalantly was shot numerous times because Kurosawa wants to capture the exact walk of a Samurai.  Heck, for one friggin walk!!! This is why I bought the Rock instead.  

[danzig]

I am sorry if I insulted anyone. It was never my intention; rather, I was hoping that we could engage in an intelligent conversation. I understand that middle- and upper-class Filipinos have every right to do what they want with their money, but I also believe that they are intelligent, deeply thoughtful, and are very capable of moving beyond the boundaries of Americanized entertainment. That is, there is a possibility that they can actually use their hobby to encourage other people to enjoy the finer points of film.

You see, I'm a teacher (I profession I chose deliberately, as I left business to teach the humanities), and that means I belong to an occupation that is often insulted and ridiculed in our country. Not that I want to move elsewhere, but I try to make do with what I have to educate others, even if it might mean receiving a lot of flak.

Because I don't make a lot of money from my work, and because I always feel I have an obligation to offer others the best that I've seen, I am often inclined to select only the finest works of art, which is just as well, as I cannot afford to buy everything in the catalog. What I did notice is that as I watched more films like _The Seventh Seal_ and _Seven Samurai_, I began to feel less tolerant of Hollywood movies. For example, I only saw the first ten minutes of _Tomb Raider_ before leaving the theater; I agonized over _Pearl Harbor_, and fell asleep after the first half-hour of _The Matrix_. I'd probably still enjoy a few action films, notably (don't laugh!) _Face-Off_ and Jackie Chan flicks, but only because they offered such action sequences first Michael Bey came along, but I'm not excited about _Terminator 3_ or _Die Hard 4_.

Last summer, I asked 17- and 18-year-old college students who just came out of Intro to English classes to read _Inferno_, _King Lear_, _Paradise Lost_, and _Faust_, and showed four films in line with these works: _The Seventh Seal_, _The Bicycle Thief_, _The 400 Blows_, and _Dr. Strangelove_. I had purchased them in DVD format hoping that the durability would assure me of long-term use for future classes, but I worried that my investment would misfire if students disliked the works.

Believe it or not, the unexpected took place. Not only did they enjoy the films, they enjoyed the deeply-felt philosophical discussions we had in class even more. Not only that, but they enjoyed the literary works, too. I even got this feeling that they wanted more films and works, and I'm guessing that at the very least they will no look at current Hollywood fare the same way ever again.

That's probably one way of messing other people's minds, but none of my students felt sorry for viewing such films. I suppose that they were more sorry about the fact that the term had ended abruptly, but I did leave them a list of more recommended works, and an offer to tape some films if they requested for such.

All I'm saying is that I think Filipino DVD collectors are not only rich and intelligent but can also be very influential. I can only imagine what it would be like if more collectors import stuff like _The Passion of Joan of Arc_ and show them many times to friends and relatives (which is more than possible as DVDs are very durable, and the restoration of the Criterion version of _Joan_ is excellent), if not to office mates, students, and even teenagers. Who knows? maybe some good might come out of it.

Anyway, I apologize once more if I had sounded arrogant or pushy.

Danzig, I don't know WHY you insist on messing with what other people want to enjoy. Watch what movies YOU want to watch and whatever you get a kick out of watching, and we'll do the same. It's my time, it's my money, it's my DVD. Give your opinion as to why you like or don't like certain movies, give your opinion as to why you would spend money on this or that DVD, but dude, stay the hell out of what I want. Watch your Passion of Joan of Arcs and your Seventh Seals if you like, that's your opinion and your right, but don't craping step on my feet when I want to watch my ROCK. It's none of your business.

[danzig]

I apologize for this misunderstanding. When I wrote "quasi-intellectual," I was actually referring to myself.

I believe that you are intelligent and mature, that's why I think that you'll understand my motives (as I explained in a note to Komikero).

As for Gilles Deleuze, please ignore that. Once again, my apologies.

Gee, and I'd intended my last reply to be conciliatory.  Look what that got me.

Call me quasi-intellectual, but I choose to take offense at the above.  I guess it's because my quasi-intellectual little brain couldn't understand all the other long, poly-syllabic and ostensibly beautiful words in your lengthy, albeit repetitive, diatribe.

And I guess my failure to understand is my loss, because I can only assume that your meaning is as edifying as the films of which you speak, which of course I could not have seen since I'm the type who wastes his time listening to the commentary track on fluff like The Rock.

I guess if I were smarter, I would have been able to convey the very simple message I have been sending for three replies now, which is:  I respect your opinion (which you have made exceedingly clear. Really.  There's no need to repeat your point as if we are children, or quasi-intellectuals), and your right to watch whatever you want to watch.  Please accord me the same courtesy.

Of course, if I were smarter, I'd also have said what I really wanted to say, which is that I think you're an intolerant snob.  But I guess I shouldn't because that would mark me as a quasi-intellectual.

P.S. What does "Deleuzian" mean? Isn't that the bald fat guy with the mustache who was in all those Burt Reynolds movies, Dom DeLeuz? I learned about that from the commentary track on my Criterion Copy of Cannonball Run.

[benny]

So, the fun's here eh? let me first read the previous posts   Nothing like a healthy debate...

[gonz]

I am sorry if I insulted anyone. It was never my intention; rather, I was hoping that we could engage in an intelligent conversation.

Yes, we can. We do that here all the time.  You as a teacher must know as well as anyone that the manner in which you communicate matters as much (or more) than the content.

Anyway, I apologize once more if I had sounded arrogant or pushy.

That you did.  You pissed me and Komikero off pretty well it seems, and we're usually the slowest to anger around here.  Ask anybody.

I'm inclined to accept your apology, but since I'm still hot under the collar about the arrogant and condescending tenor of your previous posts, let me be blunt.

Don't try to ram your personal beliefs and attitudes toward film down other people's throats -- because that's exactly what you sounded like you were doing, even if such was not your intention.  You're not the only PinoyDVD subscriber committed to art films, and uplifting the general standard of Filipino taste in movies.  In fact, such a perspective is part of what caused DVDgurl and Firewired to form this site in the first place.

PinoyDVD embraces all DVD lovers -- from those like you who believe that we should focus on the great films and veer away from Hollywood fare, to those at the opposite extreme, who get their ultimate thrill from the latest Jerry Bruckheimer or Dino De Laurentiis epic.  PinoyDVD counts among its subscribers film critics such as Noel Vera, but you don't find him trying to proselytyze us toward his point of view.  It's enough for him to post his reviews here and give his often trenchant comments, but he takes care to respect the views of others.

It makes me hopeful to find a glimmer of that same kind of respect in your latest batch of postings.  Please do continue along such lines.

Finally: since you bring it up, yes, I am a co-moderator of this forum, but I won't kick you or anyone out without good reason.  The fact that you pissed me off is not a good reason.  Although my being a co-mod doesn't make me immune to having my feelings hurt; neither does it stop me from expressing my anger.

So, apology accepted, and let's start over again.

[kakabanas]

I know I shouldn't be saying this, and I hope you don't get mad, but don't you sometimes feel that you live in a Third World country and that you sense that you need to give something back to the fatherland, no matter how small?

Again, I understand that it's your money, and like me, you're probably even paying taxes, and I have no right to order you around, but don't you think that there might be a close connection between, say, the decline of high culture (whether in the form of southern Filipino epics, our failure to restore Filipino films from the past, and probably even reading), the rise of Americanized culture (Hollywood movies, malls, professional basketball, computer games), the decline of Philippine education (we're ranked last place in science and math in Asia, and we can't even pass our own national elementary and secondary exams, let alone licensure exams), and increased spending on entertainment by Filipinos, if not political decisions and even role models built on showbiz and pro sports stereotypes?

It's more likely a far-fetched idea, but if we encourage ourselves not to be too obsessed with American Hollywood blockbusters and seek the best that other countries might offer, might this influence others to do the same, and thus lessen the problems above?

Well, don't worry about the mad part .. I wasn't and it will take more than that to offend me. Debate is healthy and fun ... gave me a headache ...  made me think and very educational. However, I do understand and agree with a lot of PinoyDVD members that you did rub some of them the wrong way in conveying your message. But you apologized already, and I'm sure they are very forgiving.

The decline of high culture and/or education can not and should not be blamed or "connected" to Hollywood movies or even local movies. It's like saying Pedro killed Juan because he watched "Natural Born Killer" ... showbiz is not an escape goat! I'd like to think Filipino moviegoers (and dvd collectors) are smart and know the difference. Given the chance to see an intelligent movie (like the Rizal flm), they would go see it. People living below the poverty line constitute much of the Filipino population, and most of the time, they would rather see simple, fun entertainment over, say, Traffic or Wonder Boys. And I'm 100% sure that if their stature in life get a little better, they would opt for a better movie to view as well ... maybe not all the time. (If you have read other thread, you would know that some of us here are longing for those old quality Filipino films to be released on dvd. )


While the rest of the world are progressing and Third World countries get poorer and poorer, the reasons behind this can be attributed to a lot of things. I am no economist but the financial state of the country plays a big part in this. Government allocation of a small piece of pie to further education is simply not enough ... resulting to underpaid educators who doesn't give out their best (obviously you excluded) and probably haven't updated their lesson plans in decades to go with the changing times. Not all educators are as dedicated as you are even when they are hungry. Why do you think some of them are selling tocino inside the class room?

The rise of Americanized culture, IMHO, is simply caused by poverty. Does it contribute to the decline of whatever ? YES, it does. Although the proliferation of cell phone does not really mean people are starving, text messaging is a turn off for me. Sure it's fun, but it's teaching people to be lazy (not learning the proper way to spell words, form a complete sentence, etc. ). NO, it doesn't. Film distributors attempting to release quality films (that we lack in our country currently) should be a very good motivation for our filmmakers to come up with something even better. Instead, our entertainment industry thrives on copying what has been done already by foreigners, musicians recycling great old songs making a sub-par versions rather writing new good ones, controversy and tsismis (enough of Kris Aquino on tv already). If only some producers would give some young blood a chance to show their artistic side...


A big factor in this decline I THINK (no offense meant here) should be attributed to what's planted in us at home when we were young. The foundation that our parents built inside our brain (no matter how small) helped define what kind of individuals we are going to be (look how screw up I am !). Discipline, education habit, respect and other important values that we NEED to learn first at home are of great importance and the first things we need as we journey through this called LIFE !

Anyone crying yet? hehehe.

[FLIM]

HMMMMMm Cmon DANZIG Don't apologize too much!your opinions kicked butt! Now if there were people who got ticked then let them!Your opion is YOUR OPINION!And us QUASI-intellectuals should be man enough to take it!If you think the rock's crap then THE ROCK'S CRAP!PLAIN AND SIMPLE.I admire your enthusiastic crusade of freeing people from the brainwashing of HOLLYWOOD.I scanned several books on the subject of the destruction of Hollywood by the invasion of people like KATZENBURG ,EISNER and the swarm of accountants and executives who started telling directors and scriptwriters what the public wanted to see. With the aid of directors like SPEILBERG,TONY SCOT and the likes( Then BAY and those SIMON WEIST,etc)They started streamlining movies!( Remember that line which speilberg said? " if you can't tell the plot in one sentence then its a bad movie".)Now you yahoos before you start cutting me up. I want to remind you that i am a staunch SPEILBERG FAN .But it does not mean that I am a BLIND FOLLOWER! I am not a fanatic ! I can still weed out his bad flicks from the good ones!Now back to streamlining!Its the exclusion of all the details and small things that DO NOT CONTRIBUTE to the excitement of the story.Which dehumanizes the film!That's why the likes of the ROCK is popular! There is no required thinking involved! You sit down and go on automatic pilot! It doesnt make you think! You are drugged and bamboozled by the SOUND AND THE FURY!There will always be a market for that kind of junk, make no mistake! We are living in the real world not a perfect one. If this was perfect then KUBRICK would still be alive and Bay would be serving you in the local STARBUCK coffee shop! George Miller would be making great action films with wit and Lucas would have delegated the writing of the STAR WARS SAGA to better hands ( with him still supervising of course!)And yes I agree with you that the intellectual growth of people can be partly blamed on the movies that they watch! Its one thing to watch a film like the ROCK and say that they enjoy it but it's also one thing to claim that it is a piece of art!( anyone wants to dispute my view my WOO handguns are cocked and ready!)Bash the films you want and don't be afraid of what those injured parties would throw in your way! You are on a crusade,man! Heads are likely to get choopped off! Its a dangerous job so dont go thinking that you wont"Get your hair mussed! "Post your views and those that disagree with you will post theirs and let the readers judge who is right!The reason why this CRITERION CLLECTION is such a hot site is because of the different views that clashed here constantly!We are living with millions of people with different viewpoints! There's bound to be a few clashes! Hell if everyone agreed with each other then Murtaugh and Riggs would have been boring to watch!    

[kakabanas]

FLIM, I don't think the moderators or anybody else in Pinoydvd is prohibiting danzig to post his opinions. We are all for exchange of ideas and opinions. Maybe we'll learn something from the exchanges, maybe not ... who knows ? But the forum is primarily for .. exchange of ideas ... forwarding information ... for fun, education, make friends or whatever. However, all the posts should be in a manner that's not offensive to anyone .. and respectful to everyone. Peace !  

[gonz]

HMMMMMm Cmon DANZIG Don't apologize too much!your opinions kicked butt! Now if there were people who got ticked then let them!Your opion is YOUR OPINION!And us QUASI-intellectuals should be man enough to take it!If you think the rock's crap then THE ROCK'S CRAP!PLAIN AND SIMPLE.I admire your enthusiastic crusade of freeing people from the brainwashing of HOLLYWOOD. 

Hi FLIM -- I'm all for everyone expressing and exchanging views on their opinions around here.  Let me clarify that I got pissed not because danzig expressed his opinion.  I got pissed because he sounded like he was dissing the opinions of others.  It's one thing to express one's own opinion while still respecting that of others, which is obviously what we want to happen.  That's healthy debate.

It's quite another to express one's opinion while bashing others' opinions.  That's arrogance.

I too admire danzig's laudable perspective (this is the fifth time I've said that in this thread).  I too think The Rock is crap.  But I support and fight for the rights of anyone here to buy it if they want, to listen to its commentary track if they want, and to watch it every day if they want.  If the time comes that they begin to hunger for meatier fare after reading the opinions of danzig, yourself, Noel Vera, and others around here who tirelessly crusade for upliftment of our cinematic taste, well and good.  If that time never comes, that's their lookout.  We are responsible adults, after all.

I just wanted to make it very clear that while I may disagree with danzig's or anyone else's opinion, I strongly support your right to express that.  What ticked me off was that the opinion was expressed in a manner that disrespected the opinion of others.

I hope we can all put this incident behind us and move forward.

[lazy_maze]

I hope I can get _The Passion of Joan of Arc_, _M_, and the 1926 version of _Faust_. I know it sounds silly, getting films that are technically not worth getting in DVD form,

No, it's not silly. If the films are important to me, I don't mind if it's not in DTS or Dolby Digital(such as those you mentioned). I will get them on DVD because like you said, DVD is very durable and I feel that the film is "preserved" in it's best viewing format.

Like others who started loving big Hollywood flicks, I set up my A/V system years ago and got so engulfed with feeding my system with T2, Aliens, etc. Until one day, I rented The Battleship Potemkin, saw the stairs sequence and said to myself "It's true! De Palma copied this!" Thus my "education" began. Meaning: I learned that I have to look back and learn...see other films, the classics, foreign art films, the works of the Masters (Kurosawa, Eisenstein etc.) and so on. And I'm glad I did because my film preference became diverse, I would sometimes rent films like Alexander Nevsky together with G.I. Jane  ... or Raise The Red Lantern with The Toxic Avenger

[FLIM]

ALEXANDER NEVSKY ROCKS! GLADIATOR fans should see this film
cause of its effective and cool battle scenes!

[Komikero]

"It's more likely a far-fetched idea, but if we encourage ourselves not to be too obsessed with American Hollywood blockbusters and seek the best that other countries might offer, might this influence others to do the same, and thus lessen the problems above?"

Hey Danzig!

I think your attributing faults to film watching that it doesn't really deserve.  The decline of culture because I want to watch the ROCK? Dude, I just want to be entertained, that's all. I wanna watch my Mummy, my Titanic, my Pearl Harbor. I want to be left alone to watch these kinds of movies if I want to without someone telling me I'm contributing to the destruction of culture and civilization as we know it!  Syet, ang bigat nun!  

Sometimes I like to flatter myself and consider myself a multi-faceted person.  Yes, I want to watch those movies, but that doesn't mean that I DON'T watch anything else. Just to let you know, Carl Th. Dryer's Passion of Joan of Arc is one of the very first DVDs that I owned. Damned expensive, but worth every pixel. I like to experiment at times. I bought Aguirre: Wrath of God from someone at eAuctions recently. I don't know squat about that movie, but seeing how it's gotten good reviews in many places I decided to try it out. And I wasn't disappointed. It's a terrific, harrowing movie.  I also bought Fellini's Amarcord for the same reasons but I'm still deciding if I liked it or not. I haven't finished it yet.  I'm planning on getting Citizen Kane in September. I owned a VHS for a long time and I wanted to get it on DVD real bad.  

I enjoy those movies of course! But I also like to watch my REANIMATOR, my Vertical Limit, and my Rock Criterion and be entertained in that way as well. Will you allow me that, without putting the burden of the destruction of human culture on my shoulders as we know it?

A suggestion, if you would allow it.

You won't be able to get people to watch films you recommend when at the same time you denigrate those films that these people like to watch. Magiging defensive sila e. Tulad ko. Naging mainit ako before kasi para bang pinapapakialaman ang buhay ko. Ganun lang naman.

Post your favorite movies! Tell us why you like them! You'll get more people to check those films out that way.

[Komikero]

FLIM:

"Now if there were people who got ticked then let them!Your opion is YOUR OPINION!And us QUASI-intellectuals should be man enough to take it!If you think the rock's crap then THE ROCK'S CRAP!PLAIN AND SIMPLE.I admire your enthusiastic crusade of freeing people from the brainwashing of HOLLYWOOD."

Come on, FLIM, don't hold back. Tell us how you REALLY feel.

My last post on this thread goes to you too, man. If a film is good, I believe it will endure. And if it's bad, it will disappear faster (and appear in bargain bins) than you can read this post!!  Why do you think Citizen Kane survives to this day? And why it consistently appears on the top of Greatest Movies of All Time lists, inspite of the sabotage this film has endured when it first came out? Hollywood may flood us with all these blockbuster movies. SOme may have substance, some may have not. But you can be sure that those really good will endure. And if it as all bad as you say, you've got nothing to worry about because they won't last. Nobody will be even talking about them 20 years from now.

Sige na pare. Gusto kong panoorin ang The Rock e. Pabayaan mo na ako. Sigeee naaaaaaaa......

[danzig]

You hit it right on the dot, Kakabanas.

If DVD collectors are by default not impoverished, then why are they still strongly influenced by contemporary Hollywood movies, if not things like special features in DVDs? Isn't it bad enough that we don't have sufficient access to films from other parts of the world, let alone our own from past decades, that we should spend large amounts of money just to get these features?

Second, aren't most rich people provided with resources to challenge the way they were raised or encouraged to think? For example, I'm sure that for money saved from buying a Criterion Collection of _The Rock_, a DVD collector can buy other Criterion disks containing films that aren't even available locally.

Does my argument make sense? Or am I looking it the wrong way?

Well, don't worry about the mad part .. I wasn't and it will take more than that to offend me. Debate is healthy and fun ... gave me a headache ...  made me think and very educational. However, I do understand and agree with a lot of PinoyDVD members that you did rub some of them the wrong way in conveying your message. But you apologized already, and I'm sure they are very forgiving.

The decline of high culture and/or education can not and should not be blamed or "connected" to Hollywood movies or even local movies. It's like saying Pedro killed Juan because he watched "Natural Born Killer" ... showbiz is not an escape goat! I'd like to think Filipino moviegoers (and dvd collectors) are smart and know the difference. Given the chance to see an intelligent movie (like the Rizal flm), they would go see it. People living below the poverty line constitute much of the Filipino population, and most of the time, they would rather see simple, fun entertainment over, say, Traffic or Wonder Boys. And I'm 100% sure that if their stature in life get a little better, they would opt for a better movie to view as well ... maybe not all the time. (If you have read other thread, you would know that some of us here are longing for those old quality Filipino films to be released on dvd. )


While the rest of the world are progressing and Third World countries get poorer and poorer, the reasons behind this can be attributed to a lot of things. I am no economist but the financial state of the country plays a big part in this. Government allocation of a small piece of pie to further education is simply not enough ... resulting to underpaid educators who doesn't give out their best (obviously you excluded) and probably haven't updated their lesson plans in decades to go with the changing times. Not all educators are as dedicated as you are even when they are hungry. Why do you think some of them are selling tocino inside the class room?

The rise of Americanized culture, IMHO, is simply caused by poverty. Does it contribute to the decline of whatever ? YES, it does. Although the proliferation of cell phone does not really mean people are starving, text messaging is a turn off for me. Sure it's fun, but it's teaching people to be lazy (not learning the proper way to spell words, form a complete sentence, etc. ). NO, it doesn't. Film distributors attempting to release quality films (that we lack in our country currently) should be a very good motivation for our filmmakers to come up with something even better. Instead, our entertainment industry thrives on copying what has been done already by foreigners, musicians recycling great old songs making a sub-par versions rather writing new good ones, controversy and tsismis (enough of Kris Aquino on tv already). If only some producers would give some young blood a chance to show their artistic side...


A big factor in this decline I THINK (no offense meant here) should be attributed to what's planted in us at home when we were young. The foundation that our parents built inside our brain (no matter how small) helped define what kind of individuals we are going to be (look how screw up I am !). Discipline, education habit, respect and other important values that we NEED to learn first at home are of great importance and the first things we need as we journey through this called LIFE !

Anyone crying yet? hehehe.

[danzig]

Komikero,

Think of Joseph Estrada, Ramon Revilla, Noli de Castro, Tito Sotto, and Robert Jaworksi, if not others.

Do you think that mass media had much to do with their success in politics?

Or think of surveys from UP and PDI that ask young people about their role models? Does is still shock us to note that Robin Padilla, Sharon Cuneta, and other showbiz and sports personalities rule the roost, with Ninoy Aquino and Jose Rizal barely making it to the list?

"It's more likely a far-fetched idea, but if we encourage ourselves not to be too obsessed with American Hollywood blockbusters and seek the best that other countries might offer, might this influence others to do the same, and thus lessen the problems above?"

Hey Danzig!

I think your attributing faults to film watching that it doesn't really deserve.  The decline of culture because I want to watch the ROCK? Dude, I just want to be entertained, that's all. I wanna watch my Mummy, my Titanic, my Pearl Harbor. I want to be left alone to watch these kinds of movies if I want to without someone telling me I'm contributing to the destruction of culture and civilization as we know it!  Syet, ang bigat nun!  

Sometimes I like to flatter myself and consider myself a multi-faceted person.  Yes, I want to watch those movies, but that doesn't mean that I DON'T watch anything else. Just to let you know, Carl Th. Dryer's Passion of Joan of Arc is one of the very first DVDs that I owned. Damned expensive, but worth every pixel. I like to experiment at times. I bought Aguirre: Wrath of God from someone at eAuctions recently. I don't know squat about that movie, but seeing how it's gotten good reviews in many places I decided to try it out. And I wasn't disappointed. It's a terrific, harrowing movie.  I also bought Fellini's Amarcord for the same reasons but I'm still deciding if I liked it or not. I haven't finished it yet.  I'm planning on getting Citizen Kane in September. I owned a VHS for a long time and I wanted to get it on DVD real bad.  

I enjoy those movies of course! But I also like to watch my REANIMATOR, my Vertical Limit, and my Rock Criterion and be entertained in that way as well. Will you allow me that, without putting the burden of the destruction of human culture on my shoulders as we know it?

A suggestion, if you would allow it.

You won't be able to get people to watch films you recommend when at the same time you denigrate those films that these people like to watch. Magiging defensive sila e. Tulad ko. Naging mainit ako before kasi para bang pinapapakialaman ang buhay ko. Ganun lang naman.

Post your favorite movies! Tell us why you like them! You'll get more people to check those films out that way.

[danzig]

I'm sorry, but no one called anyone a quasi-intellectual, except Danzig who assured others that he wasn't one.

You're post is re-assuring. Based on your argument, there is reason to note that those of us who are spending money to get special editions of Hollywood blockbusters that won't stand the test of time are eventually wasting our money. Unfortunately, that was one of my arguments; see how much flak I got. (By the way, there are no personal attacks or sarcastic remarks in my original posts, and yet some writers have been gracious enough to use profanities in their replies.)

FLIM:

"Now if there were people who got ticked then let them!Your opion is YOUR OPINION!And us QUASI-intellectuals should be man enough to take it!If you think the rock's crap then THE ROCK'S CRAP!PLAIN AND SIMPLE.I admire your enthusiastic crusade of freeing people from the brainwashing of HOLLYWOOD."

Come on, FLIM, don't hold back. Tell us how you REALLY feel.

My last post on this thread goes to you too, man. If a film is good, I believe it will endure. And if it's bad, it will disappear faster (and appear in bargain bins) than you can read this post!!  Why do you think Citizen Kane survives to this day? And why it consistently appears on the top of Greatest Movies of All Time lists, inspite of the sabotage this film has endured when it first came out? Hollywood may flood us with all these blockbuster movies. SOme may have substance, some may have not. But you can be sure that those really good will endure. And if it as all bad as you say, you've got nothing to worry about because they won't last. Nobody will be even talking about them 20 years from now.

Sige na pare. Gusto kong panoorin ang The Rock e. Pabayaan mo na ako. Sigeee naaaaaaaa......

[FLIM]

Well in my view,if someone likes to spend the extra buck for a criterion collection of the rock then its his business and his choice and more importantly ...HIS MONEY!
The type of films that we love do not necessarily mean that its a technically brilliant film or a stunning mind craper of a plot! We love it for personal reasons and if you want to get it on criterion then go ahead!I loved the IRON EAGLE movie becuase thats where i was able to first neck in a theater and even tho I dont like the plot much ,watching it again brings an aural resonance! HEheheheh! And if they offer this in criterion HELL IM GONNA GET ME ONE! wouldnt it be something, CRITERION PRESENTS IRON EAGLE, the original modern aerial warfare movie that TOPGUN IMITATED!      

[danzig]

I'd like to clarify my apology.

I'm not apologizing for what I said or how I said it, but for any problems due to misunderstanding on your part.

As I said in an earlier post, when I mentioned "quasi-intellectual," I was not referring to you but to myself. I was reassuring writers that I am not arguing from the point of someone who just came from film school and begins to use all sorts of jargon. If I ever did, it was only once, and that was about Deleuze.

I find no personal attacks, no sarcasm, and no sentences where I forced anyone to believe in what I said in my first messages. Rather, I raised points and questions that people should consider. In return, someone asks me, politely, to "crap" off.

I suppose I will not be told that I was asking for it. But wouldn't that go against your claim that this site is for all "DVD lovers"?

Of course, "insulting" might be seen as a relative term. Given that, may I offer you some advice? Try not to be overly sensitive, and consider other sides of the issue. And don't always think that any remark (like "quasi-intellectual") refers to you. That way, you won't get angry most of the time. Finally, bear in mind that this is one of several forums in the site. If you want a place where someone will disagree on little things like who said what in which movie, then I hope that there are other message areas where you can do that. In any case, I'd like to repeat that there is nothing insulting in any of my messages: no profanities or personal attacks. If you still insist otherwise, then your over-sensitive nature is something that you will have to learn to control. As for me, as long as I am not violating any rules and still remain within the topic, then I suppose I am free to state my case in the way I see fit.

Next, I find it unusual that most replies are from people who accept my apology and who offer advice on how to write without hurting others, but no insightful arguments to counter my claims. So far, I've received only the following reasons:

1. It's my money, and I can do what I want with it.

2. I want to have fun, so buzz off.

3. One can seek entertainment, besides other things, from collecting DVDs.

My counter-arguments, following questions from Komikero and statements from Flim, are:

1. We are affluent members of a Third World country, and no matter what we do and where we go, we cannot get rid of that fact. Somewhere along the line, we will have to acknowledge not only this but a personal need to help those in need.

2. Noel Vera and others have shown that Filipinos are bereft not only of their own films but also highly recommended works from other parts of the world. We are doing almost nothing to preserve or restore such works, or to learn more about films outside contemporary Hollywood blockbusters.

I'm sure that some spend as much on _Alexander Nevsky_ as on _Gladiator_, but would extra cash saved from not buying some special edition of _Gladiator_ and other Hollywood blockbusters be used to buy, say, _Ivan the Terrible_ Parts 1 and 2?

3. It is easy to cite personal rights to spend one's wealth, but what about the rights of our own countrymen? After Joseph Estrada and a host of other personalities, let alone the fact that almost nothing is shown nationwide except Hollywood blockbusters and Filipino clones, would our insensitivity backfire on us? As it is, some of us are already leaving the country because we see very little hope or hardly any future in it? Don't we have an obligation, as members of the wealthy, to help those in need?

I am not asking DVD collectors to stop buying disks. I am not asking them to donate funds or service to the poor (although that would be nice). What I am asking them is to take a luxury like DVD collecting and turn it into something that is not only personally entertaining, but also fulfilling to the self and to others.

That will mean collecting titles as diverse as possible, mostly works that are not available locally but from which we, our relatives, friends, and maybe even strangers might find insightful.

Put simply, I repeat my advice: If we become aware, as Komikero says, that films like _The Rock_ will one day fade away, perhaps we can just buy or rent a VHS and watch the film again and again. There's a chance, as Krazy put it, that we will get bored with it anyway.

On the other hand, films like _The Seventh Seal_ are works which, in my opinion, we will find perplexing today, beguiling when we reach middle age, and insightful when we reach old age. This is guaranteed especially for those of us who have college degrees, who have taken classes in philosophy and theology, and have experienced personal tragedies such as the death of loved ones or being fired from a job.

I believe that escapist fare in the form of Hollywood blockbusters will take us only so far. Ultimately, we will have to face these crises, not to mention the crises affecting our fellow Filipinos, and see it in light of our personal lifestyle. Ultimately, that will mean seeing DVD collecting in a new light, not simply a drive to collect what's "cool" or what's "hot" in the market, but a need to collect the best that other cultures can offer, and share them with fellow Filipinos before the peso devalues even more, before DVD importation is curtailed, or before we die and realize that all our teenage fantasies came to naught, and all the time we spent "amusing ourselves to death" could have been better spent cultivating ourselves and others.

I have to apologize again, but I'm sorry for sounding "romantic." I believe that most readers of this forum are college graduates or students from the best schools, very insightful, have experienced and perhaps even suffered much, and live in a poor and depressed country. I am hoping that they will see my side of the issue and see what they can offer without feeling that I'm "ramming" things down their throats.

I know that most of you are tired after all that traffic and hard work, but there has to be something that we can do that improve the state of film viewing in the Philippines. And I can't help but see Criterion DVDs as crucial, for the following reasons:

1. Barring DVD rot, DVDs are very durable. That means we can show films to others again and again. Let movie houses handle the Hollywood blockbusters.

2. Criterion DVDs are well-crafted, and some films are not readily available locally in most formats. For example, consider _A Taste of Cherry_, _Black Orpheus_, _Pixote_, and _Nights of Cabiria_. Filipinos can relate to many of these works, they come from countries like Iran and Brazil, and for college graduates who have taken courses in philosophy, theology, and even art appreciation classes in film, very enjoyable. Thus, we kill several birds with one stone: we find both enjoyment and insight in what we watch (and not just enjoyment all of the time; besides, we have lots of movie houses to go to that feature all sorts of Hollywood blockbusters), we get to improve the state of film viewing in our country no matter how small the effort, and we become less addicted to Hollywood fare.

In the end, I hope readers don't see my advice as pushy or arrogant. If they see my comments as hostile, then there is nothing I can do except advice them to criticize the points raised above instead of attacking me, feeling hurt, and offering ways of saying this nicely. (As I see, there is no other way I can offer these points in a "nicer" fashion.) But if they insist that my advice is merely "laudable" but impossible to follow, then at least they considered it, and I thank them. But if they see some sense in it or see my points as worth considering (and I have yet to see such remarks in this forum), then what do you think we should do?

Yes, we can. We do that here all the time.  You as a teacher must know as well as anyone that the manner in which you communicate matters as much (or more) than the content.
That you did.  You pissed me and Komikero off pretty well it seems, and we're usually the slowest to anger around here.  Ask anybody.

I'm inclined to accept your apology, but since I'm still hot under the collar about the arrogant and condescending tenor of your previous posts, let me be blunt.

Don't try to ram your personal beliefs and attitudes toward film down other people's throats -- because that's exactly what you sounded like you were doing, even if such was not your intention.  You're not the only PinoyDVD subscriber committed to art films, and uplifting the general standard of Filipino taste in movies.  In fact, such a perspective is part of what caused DVDgurl and Firewired to form this site in the first place.

PinoyDVD embraces all DVD lovers -- from those like you who believe that we should focus on the great films and veer away from Hollywood fare, to those at the opposite extreme, who get their ultimate thrill from the latest Jerry Bruckheimer or Dino De Laurentiis epic.  PinoyDVD counts among its subscribers film critics such as Noel Vera, but you don't find him trying to proselytyze us toward his point of view.  It's enough for him to post his reviews here and give his often trenchant comments, but he takes care to respect the views of others.

It makes me hopeful to find a glimmer of that same kind of respect in your latest batch of postings.  Please do continue along such lines.

Finally: since you bring it up, yes, I am a co-moderator of this forum, but I won't kick you or anyone out without good reason.  The fact that you pissed me off is not a good reason.  Although my being a co-mod doesn't make me immune to having my feelings hurt; neither does it stop me from expressing my anger.

So, apology accepted, and let's start over again.

[FLIM]

well i didnt tell you to politely fuuuuccckkk off! I agree with your side too. By the way are you a doctor?

[gonz]

danzig -- you're obviously not getting what I mean when I characterize your posts as "arrogant" or "pushy", so let me be specific.

1.  When you say, "If you want a place where someone will disagree on little things like who said what in which movie, then I hope that there are other message areas where you can do that," that is insulting.  Why?  Because what you consider "trivial little things" actually do bring pleasure and enjoyment to a lot of people here.  And such people woujld, but naturally, take offense at having their pleasures so cavalierly branded as "trivial little things."  Even if that is what you truly believe they are.

2.  When you characterize audio commentaries as "trivial" and say that we would be "better off spending our money on film books," you commit two errors -- first, you deliver a backhanded blow to anyone who has ever derived enjoyment from listening to those so-called "trivial" commentaries, and second, you presume that everyone, like yourself, is interested in audio commentaries as an insight into the film-making process, and that therefore we are better of buying books as these are cheaper and more effective means to that end.  Can you not allow that some people just enjoy audio commentaries for their olwn sake, and are not thereby wasting their precious time and money on (what you consider) trivialities?

3.  Stop apologizing for our misunderstanding of your presumably perfectly-expressed posts.  Where I come from, the burden of making oneself understood is on the writer, not the audience.

You complain that I criticize your form, but not your content.  Very well, let me comment on your content.  I contend that escapist entertainment serves a very noble purpose in society, and that the desire to let one's hair down and not think for a spell is a common and perfectly human yearning.  I also don't believe that every one of my actions must necessarily have a social dimension -- to wit, that by not patronizing the so-called "important" films that you mention, I am in truth contributing to the intellectual and moral degradation of my country, and of generations to come.  I think that view is extreme and unrealistic.

Also, what works for you -- your unique view of what constitutes a worthwhile film -- is not necessarily what works for others.  Yet you continue to push your view as if it is the only valid one.  That's why I say that you are ramming your opinion down our throats.  You don't think you've said anything arrogant or pushy?  Just think -- would you have gotten the same kind of flak here if you'd shown some basic respect for our views first?

And yet you wonder why no one responds to the substance of your arguments.  Professor, teach thyself:  the manner of your message matters as much as the content.  Maybe if you learn that lesson, you'll have better luck getting people to respond postively to your message.

Instead of blaming me for being over-sensitive, why don't you blame yourself for being too pushy, not respectful enough of the views of your audience? Again, ask anyone around here if I'm the type who flares up at the slightest provocation.  I'm not.  I just flared up at your provocation.

I have been a moderator a very long time, buddy, in a lot of different fora.  I think I know when someone's crossed the line.

Of course, "insulting" might be seen as a relative term. Given that, may I offer you some advice? Try not to be overly sensitive, and consider other sides of the issue. And don't always think that any remark (like "quasi-intellectual") refers to you. That way, you won't get angry most of the time. Finally, bear in mind that this is one of several forums in the site. If you want a place where someone will disagree on little things like who said what in which movie, then I hope that there are other message areas where you can do that. In any case, I'd like to repeat that there is nothing insulting in any of my messages: no profanities or personal attacks. If you still insist otherwise, then your over-sensitive nature is something that you will have to learn to control. As for me, as long as I am not violating any rules and still remain within the topic, then I suppose I am free to state my case in the way I see fit.