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Home Theater => Sources => Audio Only Sources => Topic started by: gutierrez on May 04, 2015 at 06:32 PM

Title: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: gutierrez on May 04, 2015 at 06:32 PM
I need your expert advise and help.  I'd like to get your recommendation for PC audio use, is it more appropriate to get a high-end sound card like to one below or a low end DAC (the likes of super pro, smsl, etc.)?

The Asus Essence STX is at 6500, I think I can get a decent low end DAC at the same price or even lower.

Asus Essence STX
(http://www.asus.com/media/global/products/zCDHPnfR1jymHK2f/P_500.jpg)

http://www.asus.com/Essence_HiFi_Audio/Xonar_Essence_STX/ (http://www.asus.com/Essence_HiFi_Audio/Xonar_Essence_STX/)


Thanks!
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: xbase on May 04, 2015 at 07:32 PM
I need your expert advise and help.  I'd like to get your recommendation for PC audio use, is it more appropriate to get a high-end sound card like to one below or a low end DAC (the likes of super pro, smsl, etc.)?


what kind of setup are you trying to accomplish? for headphone? for amp/stereo? it will be easier if you can elaborate...
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: rascal101 on May 04, 2015 at 07:39 PM
For me I would go with an external DAC using a linear power supply. This way the Digital to Analog conversion is external to the PC. And with the linear power supply you will have a rather "clean" DC signal (output ripple voltage is very low).

Using a sound card/DAC will mean input power to this device will be coming from the PC power supply which is switching type. Switching type power supplies excel with regulation and efficiency but output ripple voltage is a bit high. This is not as clean as the output voltage from a linear power supply even with a steep filter. This output ripple voltage from switching power supply has 2 components - output ripple from (1) AC line frequency and (2) switching frequency. Comparing to the linear power supply, it only has output ripple voltage from AC line frequency.

From the perspective of tweaking as it is not always easy to get what you are looking for, there are also more options with an external DAC eg external power supply, low jitter clock etc.
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: jcfernandez on May 04, 2015 at 08:18 PM
Im using the asus essence stx for three years now, been using it as a bridge to the rega dac (spdif)  and very pleased with the sound. i have other external dac but i prefer the essence stx: clean, detailed, more musical
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: RXV on May 04, 2015 at 08:26 PM
Im using the asus essence stx for three years now, been using it as a bridge to the rega dac (spdif)  and very pleased with the sound. i have other external dac but i prefer the essence stx: clean, detailed, more musical

Sir, can you elaborate more? You have the Essence STX, but it is still connected to an external DAC (Rega DAC). So in other words, it is just bypassing the DAC of the internal soundcard (Essence)?
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: jcfernandez on May 04, 2015 at 08:47 PM
Yes.  using it as a bridge -- to  use the spdif of rega dac. Bought it three years ago for P7300, including shipping cost.Back then , i was using powered speaker and maganda na siyang tumunog. Honestly, i would always go for asus stx if digital setup, but thats just me
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: gutierrez on May 04, 2015 at 10:38 PM
what kind of setup are you trying to accomplish? for headphone? for amp/stereo? it will be easier if you can elaborate...

Amp to rca out of soundcard
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: gutierrez on May 04, 2015 at 10:42 PM
Yes.  using it as a bridge -- to  use the spdif of rega dac. Bought it three years ago for P7300, including shipping cost.Back then , i was using powered speaker and maganda na siyang tumunog. Honestly, i would always go for asus stx if digital setup, but thats just me

Sir so bale optical out of rega to optical in of soundcard?  So parang ma dosoble ang conversion, tama po ba?
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: rascal101 on May 04, 2015 at 11:21 PM
I think he is referring to the SPDIF out from the sound card going into the external Rega DAC.

I do not think it is possible to perform double conversion unless you have an A/D converter or ADC. Normally DAC or sound cards do not have this. Test measurement equipment have this to be able to process analog signal and convert it to signal for use as readout in an LED or LCD display.
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: gutierrez on May 04, 2015 at 11:23 PM
I think he is referring to the SPDIF out from the sound card going into the external Rega DAC.

Ok so if that's the case double conversion nga
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: rascal101 on May 04, 2015 at 11:27 PM
No SIr.

Multiple conversion will mean

D/A -> A/D -> D/A

Digital to digital processing is not conversion. It is just a form of encoding.
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: rascal101 on May 04, 2015 at 11:41 PM
Yes.  using it as a bridge -- to  use the spdif of rega dac. Bought it three years ago for P7300, including shipping cost.Back then , i was using powered speaker and maganda na siyang tumunog. Honestly, i would always go for asus stx if digital setup, but thats just me

My set-up here is

PC USB -> Musiland Monitor 01 -> Heavily modified SMSL SD-1955 (DAC)
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: gutierrez on May 04, 2015 at 11:44 PM
So what kind of processing happens in the external dac if conversion occurs on the soundcard?
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: gutierrez on May 04, 2015 at 11:47 PM
My set-up here is

PC USB -> Musiland Monitor 01 -> Heavily modified SMSL SD-1955 (DAC)

Diba musiland 01 is a dac as well? What made you decide to use another dac? Why not just the smsl directly to the pc via usb?
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: rascal101 on May 04, 2015 at 11:52 PM
Conversion is not happening in the sound card because he is just using the sound card as a bridge. He is using the SPDIF out of the sound card going into the Rega DAC which accepts the SPDIF signal.

This is similar with using USB signal then using the Musiland Monitor for processing then going into a DAC. The Musiland Monitor is used to process digital signal that the DAC can process.
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: gutierrez on May 04, 2015 at 11:59 PM
How do you configure a soundcard to act as a bridge? Is it automatic when you use the optical out of the soundcard? 

I have a similar setup before and there's a difference on sq when i connect an amp with built in dac directly to the pc via usb versus optical connection via sound card
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: gutierrez on May 05, 2015 at 12:02 AM
I apologize but i think im kind of confused.  Since there are 2 dacs in the system (may it be both external or a combination of internal and external) how will you identify and control which of the dacs process the digital to anlog conversion?
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: rascal101 on May 05, 2015 at 12:29 AM
Sent you PM.
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: jjohnc on May 05, 2015 at 01:57 AM
DAC.. :)
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: Nelson de Leon on May 05, 2015 at 01:59 AM
Disadvantage of using an internal soundcard is that you have to run a long rca wire to your amp unless magkatabi lang siya. Shorter analog wires are preferred. If you plan to use an external DAC like Musiland  ;) , you can run a long USB wire from your PC para shorter ang rca wire mo.

Plus it would also depend din on your preference kung ano ang better sounding for you.
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: jcfernandez on May 05, 2015 at 10:13 AM
Sorry for late response: marami na pala nagpost, sorry sa confusion.
My setup is:  PC (asus stx soundcard) > Rega Dac > amp.  I use the digtal out (spdif) of the stx soundcard to connect to the Rega Dac.
 Comparing it with asus vivo pc (without the stx soundcard but with spdif out) connected to Rega Dac. And to my ears, the desktop pc with stx soundcard convincingly wins, the sound was fuller, more detailed, immediately noticeable is mas malakas tumunog stx soundcard. I compared it again to same Desktop PC (with  stx soundcard) this time using a USB Dac and my verdict stays.
Again, my main DAC is Rega, its just a question of which PC has the cleaner, refined source.  All I know is that the stx soundcard really complements my system.  Pasensya na, hindi ko talaga alam yong mga conversion terms
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: jambam on May 05, 2015 at 12:52 PM
I see that your using the STX as a bridge from the PC to a dac..

There are other options should you wish to try, e.g.  a usb async converter to spdif or to make it simpler as renderer where you can use a  Arm based micro PC to act as your source w/ digital music to drive the Rega
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: JoeyGS on May 05, 2015 at 04:22 PM
The soundcard is just a means to direct the digital stream from the PC into the SPDIF output jack of the soundcard.  It's still digital to digital.  And the external dac who recieves the digital stream from the soundcard via SPDIF (coaxial connection) is the one that makes the digital to analogue conversion.
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: gutierrez on May 05, 2015 at 07:12 PM
The soundcard is just a means to direct the digital stream from the PC into the SPDIF output jack of the soundcard.  It's still digital to digital.  And the external dac who recieves the digital stream from the soundcard via SPDIF (coaxial connection) is the one that makes the digital to analogue conversion.

So even if the soundcard has a DAC, there's no conversion from digital to analogue signal?  What's the purpose of its DAC?  So for the type of connection below the soundcard  just passes through the digital signal to the external DAC?

PC (soundcard) -> Toslink connection -> External DAC - > Amp



Thanks!
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: Bemermeister on May 06, 2015 at 11:35 AM
I am also using an xonar essence stx soundcard as my dac.

Since you are using toslink, you are bypassing the dac function of the xonar and using the rega as dac.

You may want to compare the stx dac vs rega dac as to which one sounds better to you. I have compared the stx vs the fiio x5 as DAC and found the stx better with a wider soundstage and a warmer sound.

Please post results of better DAC  8) 8)
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: xbase on May 06, 2015 at 12:12 PM
Im using the asus essence stx for three years now, been using it as a bridge to the rega dac (spdif)  and very pleased with the sound. i have other external dac but i prefer the essence stx: clean, detailed, more musical

Sir, did u try between the coaxial and the toslink as output of stx to your rega? How does sound?
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: jcfernandez on May 06, 2015 at 01:52 PM
No. haven't tried yet the coaxial, only the spdif. I suppose all of the four dgital inputs of Rega have better sq than the usb as what the manual says. So , I want to know, based on the the resources at hand, what would be the best transport using the spdif in of Rega. The three subjects of comparison are 1) Asus Vivo PC which has spdif out but doesnt have stx  2) a desktop pc which has asus stx soundcard  and 3) same desktop pc with (2) but the spdif out now is a USB dac (costlier than stx).
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: jcfernandez on May 06, 2015 at 01:59 PM
@Bemermeister
of course, the rega wins, iba na yon pricepoint ng Rega..
The three PC I have used have i5 and 4gb
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: jh@meeh on May 06, 2015 at 02:34 PM
http://www.sotm.sonore.us/SOtM3.html

Kung may USB DAC ka, eto magandang gamiting PC audio card.
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: Bemermeister on May 07, 2015 at 08:17 AM
How much of a difference can you hear between the tstx and the rega? :)

Is it easily discernable when you switch betweem DACs?
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: gutierrez on May 07, 2015 at 09:07 AM
How much of a difference can you hear between the tstx and the rega? :)

Is it easily discernable when you switch betweem DACs?

Im interested to know this as well.  Price difference is miles away, about 30k.
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: Nelson de Leon on May 07, 2015 at 10:03 AM
Correct!

How much of a difference can you hear between the tstx and the rega? :)

Is it easily discernable when you switch betweem DACs?

@Gutierrez: Sir, ultimately you have to find out muna kung swak sa preference ninyo ang sonic signature ng soundcard. Ang problem lang is paano ninyo audition. Suggestion sir, sa mga Gilmore stores, pwede sa kanila ang return within 7 days. Try to get one muna, then return after 5 days kung hindi ninyo gusto ang sound. Palit ibang item na lang. Dapat sir, you should prioritize and sound quality before anything else.
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: gutierrez on May 07, 2015 at 10:15 AM
Correct!

@Gutierrez: Sir, ultimately you have to find out muna kung swak sa preference ninyo ang sonic signature ng soundcard. Ang problem lang is paano ninyo audition. Suggestion sir, sa mga Gilmore stores, pwede sa kanila ang return within 7 days. Try to get one muna, then return after 5 days kung hindi ninyo gusto ang sound. Palit ibang item na lang. Dapat sir, you should prioritize and sound quality before anything else.

Actually sir, I already bought one pero yun Asus na Xonar Phoebus, I think specs wise almost the same lang (in terms of DAC used).  Medyo hindi pa ako satisfied in terms of SQ, there's still harshness on highs and manipis konti tumunog, given that Im already using a tube amp.  im considering an external DAC as remedy and Im leaning towards yhe Rotel RDD0 (not a low end DAC thou).
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: Nelson de Leon on May 07, 2015 at 10:19 AM
Actually sir, I already bought one pero yun Asus na Xonar Phoebus, I think specs wise almost the same lang (in terms of DAC used).  Medyo hindi pa ako satisfied in terms of SQ, there's still harshness on highs and manipis konti tumunog, given that Im already using a tube amp.  im considering an external DAC as remedy and Im leaning towards yhe Rotel RDD0 (not a low end DAC thou).

What about your Rega sir. Medjo laid back ang highs niya and makapal ng unti tumunog. Hindi niyo type yun sound?
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: gutierrez on May 07, 2015 at 10:21 AM
What about your Rega sir. Medjo laid back ang highs niya and makapal ng unti tumunog. Hindi niyo type yun sound?

Ay hindi po ako yun may Rega
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: jcfernandez on May 07, 2015 at 10:22 AM
As far as I can recall, sir, the difference is considerable but its not highly significant. Its not what you might call night and day difference. Medyo manipis ng konti yong stx, but soundstage is quite decent.
Sir, what Im really after is the combination of the two: stx soundcard as transport (bridge) and Rega as DAC. I would presume na kaya maganda yong result para sa akin, kasi Rega is known to have full bodied sound tapos it is receiving signal from manipis ng konti = sakto lang siya.   
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: Nelson de Leon on May 07, 2015 at 10:24 AM
Ay hindi po ako yun may Rega

Try the digital EQ ng PC niyo.
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: xbase on May 07, 2015 at 10:43 AM
Try the digital EQ ng PC niyo.

Thats the beauty of pc/digital setup, pwede i eq until lumabas ang sq pref.

May setup is simple, 1). pc-mb -> tube amp (using foobar) very satisfied na ko sa sq. 2). Pc-soundcard-toslink -> HT-ss (using foobar) mas satisfied kesa sa setup 1.

I guess mababaw lang ang pandinig ko, pero gusto ko din makadinig ng setup na may stx. Baka makulam ako at magulo ang mundo ko...hehehe...

Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: rascal101 on May 07, 2015 at 01:31 PM
Actually sir, I already bought one pero yun Asus na Xonar Phoebus, I think specs wise almost the same lang (in terms of DAC used).  Medyo hindi pa ako satisfied in terms of SQ, there's still harshness on highs and manipis konti tumunog, given that Im already using a tube amp.  im considering an external DAC as remedy and Im leaning towards yhe Rotel RDD0 (not a low end DAC thou).

Ano po bang tubes gamit ng tube amp niyo? Baka puwede kayo mag tube roll para makuha niyo iyung tunog na habol niyo.
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: gutierrez on May 07, 2015 at 05:09 PM
Thats the beauty of pc/digital setup, pwede i eq until lumabas ang sq pref.

May setup is simple, 1). pc-mb -> tube amp (using foobar) very satisfied na ko sa sq. 2). Pc-soundcard-toslink -> HT-ss (using foobar) mas satisfied kesa sa setup 1.

I guess mababaw lang ang pandinig ko, pero gusto ko din makadinig ng setup na may stx. Baka makulam ako at magulo ang mundo ko...hehehe...



Bilhin mo na lang Asus Xonar Phoebus ko, hehehe
Title: Re: High end Sound Card or Low end DAC
Post by: xbase on May 07, 2015 at 06:09 PM
Bilhin mo na lang Asus Xonar Phoebus ko, hehehe

Naku sir di ako gamer...hehehe...