PinoyDVD: The Pinoy Digital Video & Devices Community
Home Theater => Sources => Audio Only Sources => Topic started by: shrek7 on Jul 03, 2015 at 12:25 PM
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Is laptop better than PC or the other way around when playing music via USB? May difference ba? How to maximize your laptop or pc as audio source? Any brand recommendation?
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Is laptop better than PC or the other way around when playing music via USB? May difference ba? How to maximize your laptop or pc as audio source? Any brand recommendation?
I have both as source, Dell SFF PC with i5 8 gig ram and Dell Laptop i5 8 gig ram. Both running on windows 7 only and no other apps installed. I see no difference with regards to SQ..
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PC for me, fanless if possible. Masyadong cramped ang loob ng laptop and most parts are spaced too tight from each other. Aside from heat, jammed switching parts will create electrical noise & jitter.
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Thank you for your replies mga sir's, Iam just very curious, I have an HP notebook that I use for foobar 2k and spotify to play music via USB going thru my DAC. I am pretty satisfied already by the sound it produces. But curiosity kicked in, I tried a newer HP laptop with I7 processor which I use for office duties and there is a significant difference on SQ, giving a clearer presentation onf music, blacker backgrounds, better separation of instruments etc. so I was thinking if a better PC with separate fanless power supply would give a better SQ compared to a laptop. Is there someone here who have tried a PC with ultra linear power supply? I have read that it gives a better SQ than PC's with ATx smps power supply.
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Mini PC (ex. Intel NUC) and/or Mac Mini
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Power supply is one part you shouldn't scrimp on, a fanless linear PSU will definitely improve its performance. But when I say fanless what I mean is not just the PSU but also the cooling fans for the CPU.
Fans are the main source of noise in the PC, although there are silent fans available in the market those will still produce noise and will only worsen in time due to wear & tear. Plus I read somewhere that the air coming from the end of the fan blades creates electrical ripples due to turbulence inside the case, I'm not sure it if there's scientific basis behind it but I read it on the internet so it must be true ;D >:D
There are passive cooled cases specifically designed for HTPCs & audio PCs, google Streacom & HDPlex for starters. If you want a built unit google "CAPS PC". My advice; if you are serious in wanting to use a PC as your main audio transport, those off the shelf consumer PCs won't cut it.
Thank you for your replies mga sir's, Iam just very curious, I have an HP notebook that I use for foobar 2k and spotify to play music via USB going thru my DAC. I am pretty satisfied already by the sound it produces. But curiosity kicked in, I tried a newer HP laptop with I7 processor which I use for office duties and there is a significant difference on SQ, giving a clearer presentation onf music, blacker backgrounds, better separation of instruments etc. so I was thinking if a better PC with separate fanless power supply would give a better SQ compared to a laptop. Is there someone here who have tried a PC with ultra linear power supply? I have read that it gives a better SQ than PC's with ATx smps power supply.
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BTW, JoeyGS is using CAPS PC for audio pc and it sounds really good, he said it is available locally thru Victor Sow. Sonically, it is simply miles ahead of my MBP which we used in head to head test and I'm pretty sure it sounds better than my DIY built i7 PC.
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BTW, JoeyGS is using CAPS ZUMA for audio pc and it sounds really good, he said it is available locally thru Victor Sow. Sonically, it is simply miles ahead of my MBP which we used in head to head test and I'm pretty sure it sounds better than my DIY built i7 PC.
Agree!
As what deist mentioned here, the power supply plays a key role...I recommend a linear power supply for make it "quieter"...
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Power supply is one part you shouldn't scrimp on, a fanless linear PSU will definitely improve its performance. But when I say fanless what I mean is not just the PSU but also the cooling fans for the CPU.
Fans are the main source of noise in the PC, although there are silent fans available in the market those will still produce noise and will only worsen in time due to wear & tear. Plus I read somewhere that the air coming from the end of the fan blades creates electrical ripples due to turbulence inside the case, I'm not sure it if there's scientific basis behind it but I read it on the internet so it must be true ;D >:D
There are passive cooled cases specifically designed for HTPCs & audio PCs, google Streacom & HDPlex for starters. If you want a built unit google "CAPS PC". My advice; if you are serious in wanting to use a PC as your main audio transport, those off the shelf consumer PCs won't cut it.
Lol!
I don't think it's the air but the motor since it's an inductive device. Plus, electromagnets are either electric generator or electric consumer.
Having said this, I would assume those smart coolers that change speed depending on temperature generate some electrical noise when slowing down, similar to regenerative braking in hybrid cars.
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Great! we now have someone with technical background to enlighten us....
And your suggestion sir?
Lol!
I don't think it's the air but the motor since it's an inductive device. Plus, electromagnets are either electric generator or electric consumer.
Having said this, I would assume those smart coolers that change speed depending on temperature generate some electrical noise when slowing down, similar to regenerative braking in hybrid cars.
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fans are noisy no matter what....
the best solution is water cooling,
the system can be put out of the way....
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Water cooling is another option but there are 2 types:
1. With fan/s.
(http://www.corsair.com/en-us/~/media/C0B0B29A7EE94476A399215347537FCD.ashx)
2. Without fan/s or radiator type
(http://www.corsair.com/Media/catalog/product/h/1/h100_rad_v2.png)
My only apprehension in this is reliability. Somewhere in your head there's the thought that there will come a time when the liquid seeps through the cpu.
Another option is passive cooling radiator, the best around is the Nofan CR-95c
(http://images.esellerpro.com/2272/I/490/5/nof-cr95c-01.jpg)
The downside is it will require a big casing with very good convection cooling, look at how massive CR-95c is:
(http://cdn.eteknix.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Mounted_1.jpg)
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While this is the Streacom fanless FC5 case:
(http://www.streacom.com/wp-content/uploads/fc5-featured.jpg)
Inside the FC5
(https://www.lifefx.com.au/Content/UserImages/FC5-OD-B-INTERNAL.jpg)
(http://www.pretaktovanie.sk/obr/skrinky/fc5evo/fc5evo_31_large.jpg)
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How Streacom's passive cooling works(from Anandtech):
The cooling solution consists of two components, the fins on the chassis and the heat pipes to take the heat away from the processor surface:
(http://images.anandtech.com/doci/6523/fc10_external_cool_575px.gif)
The chassis fins contribute to the cooling through convection by natural airflow. The heat pipes contribute through cooling by phase change, i.e, liquid water in the heat pipes close to the processor evaporates and moves towards the chassis fins where it condenses and gets transported back closer to the processor.
(http://images.anandtech.com/doci/6523/heatpipe_work_575px.gif)
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Great! we now have someone with technical background to enlighten us....
And your suggestion sir?
Nothing really.
Although OT, can we somehow utilize the tech being used in smartphones or tablets?
I mean... those devices can be as powerful as a PC or laptop but can survive without the need of a mechanical cooling mechanism.
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Fanless notebook would make a quiet dedicated music source. Example: MSI S120 to be released this July 2015.
11.6 inch, 1366 x 768 pixel TN display
Intel Atom Z3735F Bay Trail processor
2GB of RAM
32GB or 64GB of NAND flash storage
2MP front-facing camera
802.11b/g/n WiFi
Bluetooth 4.0
2 USB 2.0 ports
microSDHC card slot
mini HDMI port and headset jack
5200 mAh battery
http://liliputing.com/2015/06/msi-s120-is-a-small-fanless-notebook.html (http://liliputing.com/2015/06/msi-s120-is-a-small-fanless-notebook.html)
There are other fanless notebooks but are more expensive. Example: Acer TravelMate B115P and Samsung ATIV Book 9.
Expect more devices to be fanless with recent release of Intel Core M processors with 4.5W Max TDP.
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Biggest problem with PC and Laptop is JITTER. Better invest on Asynchronous USB DAC with very low Clock Jitter and Regen Amber or SOTM tX-USBexp or JCAT USB Card. Much better too, if you use OS Windows Server 2012 R2 with Audiophile Optimizer.
http://www.highend-audiopc.com/audiophile-optimizer
http://www.sotm-audio.com/sotmwp/english/portfolio-item/tx-usbexp/
http://jplay.eu/jcat/
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How Streacom's passive cooling works(from Anandtech):
The cooling solution consists of two components, the fins on the chassis and the heat pipes to take the heat away from the processor surface:
(http://images.anandtech.com/doci/6523/fc10_external_cool_575px.gif)
The chassis fins contribute to the cooling through convection by natural airflow. The heat pipes contribute through cooling by phase change, i.e, liquid water in the heat pipes close to the processor evaporates and moves towards the chassis fins where it condenses and gets transported back closer to the processor.
(http://images.anandtech.com/doci/6523/heatpipe_work_575px.gif)
wow!! Ang ganda naman nito!!! Very sleek looking!!
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Biggest problem with PC and Laptop is JITTER. Better invest on Asynchronous USB DAC with very low Clock Jitter and Regen Amber or SOTM tX-USBexp or JCAT USB Card. Much better too, if you use OS Windows Server 2012 R2 with Audiophile Optimizer.
http://www.highend-audiopc.com/audiophile-optimizer
http://www.sotm-audio.com/sotmwp/english/portfolio-item/tx-usbexp/
http://jplay.eu/jcat/
I am already planning to buy the uptone regen amber, thanks for the links sir! So if PC's and laptop's problem is the jitter, would a regular laptop with regen amber and audiophile optimizer be enough/ better Compared to a thousand $$$ PC's with separate power supplies?
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Anong DAC mo sir? Asynchronous USB na ba? that's where you should start first.
I am already planning to buy the uptone regen amber, thanks for the links sir! So if PC's and laptop's problem is the jitter, would a regular laptop with regen amber and audiophile optimizer be enough/ better Compared to a thousand $$$ PC's with separate power supplies?
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Yes, i'm planning to DIY build one ;)
wow!! Ang ganda naman nito!!! Very sleek looking!!
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Naku, di pa asynchronous usb DAC yung sa akin? What are the benefits po ba ng asynchronous dac?
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Best in jitter reduction when using USB. Look for a DAC with XMOS chip, karamihan sa naglalabasang DAC ngayon yan na ang gamit na data transfer chip. Arguably the best in the market today.
Naku, di pa asynchronous usb DAC yung sa akin? What are the benefits po ba ng asynchronous dac?
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I use an old HP Mini 210 netbook. It has no fan. Expectedly, it runs hot. I've put cork legs in front. Along with the battery bump at the back, this lifts the netbook.
It is mainly used for Foobar 2000. It is my most revealing source right now. However my experience is limited by my modest equipment (ODAC). No claims here. It is just fan-less.
When it comes to processing music, the beefier the pc specs, the better. All resources should be dedicated to processing music. That said, my netbook is not ideal. But for simple cd rips, it does a very good job. Very clean sound heard from my iems and headphones.
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I am already planning to buy the uptone regen amber, thanks for the links sir! So if PC's and laptop's problem is the jitter, would a regular laptop with regen amber and audiophile optimizer be enough/ better Compared to a thousand $$$ PC's with separate power supplies?
Most audiophiles considered everything in the chain as weakest link. I cannot say that regular laptop with amber regen/optimizer will be the end. Currently i'm using CAPS Zuma V3 with Paul Hynes LPSU, my Exasound DAC has LPSU too. Every part of the chain is really important.
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Most audiophiles considered everything in the chain as weakest link. I cannot say that regular laptop with amber regen/optimizer will be the end. Currently i'm using CAPS Zuma V3 with Paul Hynes LPSU, my Exasound DAC has LPSU too. Every part of the chain is really important.
wow!!! Ganda!
I might go for regen amber, audiophile optimizer then will slowly upgrade computer/laptop hardware!
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Fanless notebook would make a quiet dedicated music source. Example: MSI S120 to be released this July 2015.
11.6 inch, 1366 x 768 pixel TN display
Intel Atom Z3735F Bay Trail processor
2GB of RAM
32GB or 64GB of NAND flash storage
2MP front-facing camera
802.11b/g/n WiFi
Bluetooth 4.0
2 USB 2.0 ports
microSDHC card slot
mini HDMI port and headset jack
5200 mAh battery
http://liliputing.com/2015/06/msi-s120-is-a-small-fanless-notebook.html (http://liliputing.com/2015/06/msi-s120-is-a-small-fanless-notebook.html)
There are other fanless notebooks but are more expensive. Example: Acer TravelMate B115P and Samsung ATIV Book 9.
Expect more devices to be fanless with recent release of Intel Core M processors with 4.5W Max TDP.
thank you for the list of fanless laptops, this is a huge help for those planning to build their Audio Pc set up
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i still keep my Creative Sound Blaster sound card.......:D
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I use an old HP Mini 210 netbook. It has no fan. Expectedly, it runs hot. I've put cork legs in front. Along with the battery bump at the back, this lifts the netbook.
It is mainly used for Foobar 2000. It is my most revealing source right now. However my experience is limited by my modest equipment (ODAC). No claims here. It is just fan-less.
When it comes to processing music, the beefier the pc specs, the better. All resources should be dedicated to processing music. That said, my netbook is not ideal. But for simple cd rips, it does a very good job. Very clean sound heard from my iems and headphones.
mukha ngang this is the simplest way to go for people who are not techie enough to build their own server, specially for me!!!
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fans are noisy no matter what....
the best solution is water cooling,
the system can be put out of the way....
mukhang fanless talaga ang kailangan sa system ko...
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My PC is connected to my Marantz receiver via HDMI cable. Will there be improvement in SQ if I use USB DAC?
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mukhang fanless talaga ang kailangan sa system ko...
try mo din tablet o smartphone.
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My PC is connected to my Marantz receiver via HDMI cable. Will there be improvement in SQ if I use USB DAC?
It actually will be dependent on the synergy between the amp section of your reciever and DAC.
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This is a very interesting topic. I have listened from both sources (laptop and desktop) but could not find any differences in sound when my DAC/AMP is connected to either source :)
What I can say is the laptop can offer lower levels of EMI since it is using a battery as a power source instead of a switching PSU common to desktop PC's. Plus the low clock speeds of the processor and the use of only 1-2 fans help reduce EMI significantly. I think a tablet or laptop or Intel NUC style desktop that is cooled passively will even have less EMI emissions. Take a look at ASUS Transformer Book T100TA or the Zotac ZBOX Nano to get an idea. Both are powered by Intel quad-core Celeron / Atom processors and are passively cooled. Plus they can be equipped with SSD's so there are absolutely no motors or moving parts that can cause EMI.
For desktops you can lessen EMI by using few fans as possible and connecting them directly to the PSU and not the motherboard fan headers. Also if you enable spread spectrum control in the BIOS it will further reduce EMI and noise. Running the processor at a lower speed also helps as modern processors running in Turbo mode produces EMI due to the higher clock frequency.
Hope this information helps! :)
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To effectively use a PC for hi-end audio application, IMO the following must be met:
1. The PC shall be solely be used to audio playback
2. Processor is fanless. Use passive cooling similar to the Streacom CPU cases. Newer and more efficient processors consumes less power which generates less heat.
3. PSU is fanless. Pico power supply and batteries can be used.
4. OS needs to be configured for audio playback only. All resources not needed for audio playback needs to be shut down or disabled. Windows Server 2012 or Linux/Fedora are good candidates. Audiophile Oprimizer or Fidelizer are some softwares that further tweak the OS to minimally operate for audio function only.
5. Headless operation with remote controllers are preferred since video operation can induce noise into the system.
6. Audio grade cables for SATA/HDD, power and USB help a lot to provide blacker background
7. SSD for OS and if possible for music playback is desired as HDD are noisier
8. Audio grade USB cards also provide big improvement in SQ output. Paul Pang Audio Grade USB cards is an example which had provided my system with major improvement versus the ones on the motherboard.
9. Intel i3 is the minimum processor needed in case you will also use DSD music files. DSD files require some amount of complex processing.
10. 16gb RAM memory is recommended as a minimum to ensure smooth playback
Not all of the above can be implemented in a laptop.
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If you can't hear a difference between a laptop & desktop then it is good for you, no need for upgrades so easy on the wallet. But my experience is otherwise hence the quest for a "noiseless" pc source ;)
This is a very interesting topic. I have listened from both sources (laptop and desktop) but could not find any differences in sound when my DAC/AMP is connected to either source :)
What I can say is the laptop can offer lower levels of EMI since it is using a battery as a power source instead of a switching PSU common to desktop PC's. Plus the low clock speeds of the processor and the use of only 1-2 fans help reduce EMI significantly. I think a tablet or laptop or Intel NUC style desktop that is cooled passively will even have less EMI emissions. Take a look at ASUS Transformer Book T100TA or the Zotac ZBOX Nano to get an idea. Both are powered by Intel quad-core Celeron / Atom processors and are passively cooled. Plus they can be equipped with SSD's so there are absolutely no motors or moving parts that can cause EMI.
For desktops you can lessen EMI by using few fans as possible and connecting them directly to the PSU and not the motherboard fan headers. Also if you enable spread spectrum control in the BIOS it will further reduce EMI and noise. Running the processor at a lower speed also helps as modern processors running in Turbo mode produces EMI due to the higher clock frequency.
Hope this information helps! :)
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I totally agree with this, same reasons why I'm not recommending tablets or mobile phones for hi-fi audio playback
To effectively use a PC for hi-end audio application, IMO the following must be met:
1. The PC shall be solely be used to audio playback
2. Processor is fanless. Use passive cooling similar to the Streacom CPU cases. Newer and more efficient processors consumes less power which generates less heat.
3. PSU is fanless. Pico power supply and batteries can be used.
4. OS needs to be configured for audio playback only. All resources not needed for audio playback needs to be shut down or disabled. Windows Server 2012 or Linux/Fedora are good candidates. Audiophile Oprimizer or Fidelizer are some softwares that further tweak the OS to minimally operate for audio function only.
5. Headless operation with remote controllers are preferred since video operation can induce noise into the system.
6. Audio grade cables for SATA/HDD, power and USB help a lot to provide blacker background
7. SSD for OS and if possible for music playback is desired as HDD are noisier
8. Audio grade USB cards also provide big improvement in SQ output. Paul Pang Audio Grade USB cards is an example which had provided my system with major improvement versus the ones on the motherboard.
9. Intel i3 is the minimum processor needed in case you will also use DSD music files. DSD files require some amount of complex processing.
10. 16gb RAM memory is recommended as a minimum to ensure smooth playback
Not all of the above can be implemented in a laptop.
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To effectively use a PC for hi-end audio application, IMO the following must be met:
1. The PC shall be solely be used to audio playback
2. Processor is fanless. Use passive cooling similar to the Streacom CPU cases. Newer and more efficient processors consumes less power which generates less heat.
3. PSU is fanless. Pico power supply and batteries can be used.
4. OS needs to be configured for audio playback only. All resources not needed for audio playback needs to be shut down or disabled. Windows Server 2012 or Linux/Fedora are good candidates. Audiophile Oprimizer or Fidelizer are some softwares that further tweak the OS to minimally operate for audio function only.
5. Headless operation with remote controllers are preferred since video operation can induce noise into the system.
6. Audio grade cables for SATA/HDD, power and USB help a lot to provide blacker background
7. SSD for OS and if possible for music playback is desired as HDD are noisier
8. Audio grade USB cards also provide big improvement in SQ output. Paul Pang Audio Grade USB cards is an example which had provided my system with major improvement versus the ones on the motherboard.
9. Intel i3 is the minimum processor needed in case you will also use DSD music files. DSD files require some amount of complex processing.
10. 16gb RAM memory is recommended as a minimum to ensure smooth playback
Not all of the above can be implemented in a laptop.
+1 on this. I just want to emphasize above setup is for "high-end" audio. Going high-end burns cash so it's a good thing that my ears are fine with "mid-range" audio. :)
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Sana may clinic for upgradeitist...hahaha...
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To effectively use a PC for hi-end audio application, IMO the following must be met:
1. The PC shall be solely be used to audio playback
2. Processor is fanless. Use passive cooling similar to the Streacom CPU cases. Newer and more efficient processors consumes less power which generates less heat.
3. PSU is fanless. Pico power supply and batteries can be used.
4. OS needs to be configured for audio playback only. All resources not needed for audio playback needs to be shut down or disabled. Windows Server 2012 or Linux/Fedora are good candidates. Audiophile Oprimizer or Fidelizer are some softwares that further tweak the OS to minimally operate for audio function only.
5. Headless operation with remote controllers are preferred since video operation can induce noise into the system.
6. Audio grade cables for SATA/HDD, power and USB help a lot to provide blacker background
7. SSD for OS and if possible for music playback is desired as HDD are noisier
8. Audio grade USB cards also provide big improvement in SQ output. Paul Pang Audio Grade USB cards is an example which had provided my system with major improvement versus the ones on the motherboard.
9. Intel i3 is the minimum processor needed in case you will also use DSD music files. DSD files require some amount of complex processing.
10. 16gb RAM memory is recommended as a minimum to ensure smooth playback
Not all of the above can be implemented in a laptop.
I beg to differ brader...
I do use a laptop with an i7 processor solely dedicated as a music source only. Compared it with a fanless and headless i3 and besides the convinience, I find the laptop to sound better. Of course the processor is better. Though both had 4gb of ram and had the same os (mine heavily configured at the root to use nothing else but what is needed to play music). The pico power supply is a bit of a hit and miss still while the laptop can use its battery which has the proper juice. And then the wireless or wired connection. A laptop can be controlled via its own keyboard and keeping the wifi turn off, latency is affected when this is On which in the case of the headless one is a requirement.
The nice thing about a fanless unit is that you can tweak it to your heart's delight. Get a server board with two processors (use two i7's) install 32gb ram plus use only ssd hhds, then add the special wires but do use a power source that has more power than the machine needs. Then the difference might even be small that I think it isn't really worth the cost and trouble.
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If you can't hear a difference between a laptop & desktop then it is good for you, no need for upgrades so easy on the wallet. But my experience is otherwise hence the quest for a "noiseless" pc source
Sadly my audio components are not resolving enough so I can't tell the difference. I even tried playing back a DSD audio file on an SMSL M8 DAC connected to either laptop or PC and I could not differentiate between the two using HD600 or HE-400i headphones. I'm limited to my budget-fi setup unfortunately :)
But having said that, I think the new "Intel NUC" style PC's can help in building a noiseless PC source that won't break your bank account. They do meet some of the requirements that JoeyGS mentioned:
- Processor is fanless and cooled passively (especially for Baytrail quad-core CPUs)
- PSU is fanless and uses a Pico PSU with separate adapter.
- Can use an SSD
- Can be upgraded to 16GB of memory
- Headless operation is possible (I think?) as they are designed to be used as HTPC with remote.
The only requirements they don't meet are the audio grade SATA/HDD cables and the Paul Pang audio grade USB card. Very specialized components that have to ordered from abroad I guess. The passive cases like Streacom are also very expensive. A good alternative to Streacom are the Akasa passive cases.
But having mentioned the above...
Wouldn't an HD Audio media player be more practical like the Dune HD Smart D1 or Popcorn Hour C300? They can use SSD's for storage, can be controlled remotely, and you can connect them to an external DAC or audiophile grade receiver. The only drawback I see is they don't have support for DSD audio files ^-^
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Saw this guide in building a CAPS PC on your own, very informative:
C.A.P.S. v2.0
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/405-computer-audiophile-pocket-server-caps-v20/ (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/405-computer-audiophile-pocket-server-caps-v20/)
(http://images.computeraudiophile.com/graphics/2010/0208/M10_main.jpg)
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I totally agree brader. It's highly possible to use a laptop as a music server. Performance wise, I really have not compared my music server with a tweaked laptop solely for audio playback. But I am sure your laptop is very good.
But in your case, the OS has been manually tweaked to allow minimum operations, at least for audio use only. You have made the processor work to a minimum which probably made the fan to work less or none at all during playback. This has an impact in better sound quality which you are achieving.
The approach I suggested is from a point of view that one would start to either purchase or assemble a music server. Starting from zero, assembling a CAPS server similar to what I have suggested would give one a hi-fi music server. Purchasing a loptop would require one to either change the OS and purchase softwares that would manage the OS operations to be efficient for audio application; or, go to the path you have taken which is to tweak the OS, shut down all processes not needed for audio playback. I guess majority of the users are not capable of manually tweaking the OS ....... but it is possible if one can dedicate time to study and implement.
Sana I can also learn your skills in tweaking OS ..... ;D >:D .... mas matipid yan eh ;D
I beg to differ brader...
I do use a laptop with an i7 processor solely dedicated as a music source only. Compared it with a fanless and headless i3 and besides the convinience, I find the laptop to sound better. Of course the processor is better. Though both had 4gb of ram and had the same os (mine heavily configured at the root to use nothing else but what is needed to play music). The pico power supply is a bit of a hit and miss still while the laptop can use its battery which has the proper juice. And then the wireless or wired connection. A laptop can be controlled via its own keyboard and keeping the wifi turn off, latency is affected when this is On which in the case of the headless one is a requirement.
The nice thing about a fanless unit is that you can tweak it to your heart's delight. Get a server board with two processors (use two i7's) install 32gb ram plus use only ssd hhds, then add the special wires but do use a power source that has more power than the machine needs. Then the difference might even be small that I think it isn't really worth the cost and trouble.
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In my experience, the entire audio component, from source to speakers should be transparent enough so that you can hear the subtle differences in the music playback whether it be different types or version of music files or material; or maybe different types of cables; or tubes or whatever you insert or change in the music component chain.
A carefully made music server or music source may not necessarily output the natural presentation of a music material if any of the components is not able to process or convey the music signal in a transparent or natural way by how the music material was recorded (good or bad). In simple words, if a music file or material is good, the output should be good; and if it is bad then the output should be bad. That's what I meant by transparency.
If you think your music server has been properly built to a certain level, maybe check out the other components in your audio chain which may be the link that does not provide the transparency.
In my case, when I started to use Magnepan (planar) speakers and Mark Audio fullrange diy speakers, I was able to tune my audio components better and also found which of my music materials were recorded good or bad. The aforementioned speakers, for me, are regarded as transparent and resolving. It will output what you feed them (good or bad) and will sound good or bad as originally intended. So I realized that all the while, my previous speakers were 'forgiving' and did not provide me the actual sound that my components were producing.
But please do take note that YMMV and I hope my experience can provide some insight in your audio journey.
Oh, and BTW, the Paul Pang cables can be sourced locally too thru a local distributor. (Victor Sow - 0917-855-0668; PDVD handle rotciv64)
Sadly my audio components are not resolving enough so I can't tell the difference. I even tried playing back a DSD audio file on an SMSL M8 DAC connected to either laptop or PC and I could not differentiate between the two using HD600 or HE-400i headphones. I'm limited to my budget-fi setup unfortunately :)
But having said that, I think the new "Intel NUC" style PC's can help in building a noiseless PC source that won't break your bank account. They do meet some of the requirements that JoeyGS mentioned:
- Processor is fanless and cooled passively (especially for Baytrail quad-core CPUs)
- PSU is fanless and uses a Pico PSU with separate adapter.
- Can use an SSD
- Can be upgraded to 16GB of memory
- Headless operation is possible (I think?) as they are designed to be used as HTPC with remote.
The only requirements they don't meet are the audio grade SATA/HDD cables and the Paul Pang audio grade USB card. Very specialized components that have to ordered from abroad I guess. The passive cases like Streacom are also very expensive. A good alternative to Streacom are the Akasa passive cases.
But having mentioned the above...
Wouldn't an HD Audio media player be more practical like the Dune HD Smart D1 or Popcorn Hour C300? They can use SSD's for storage, can be controlled remotely, and you can connect them to an external DAC or audiophile grade receiver. The only drawback I see is they don't have support for DSD audio files ^-^
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I'm also using sa budget-fi system of mostly DIY components but I can hear the difference that even changing usb cable has a very noticeable alteration in sound. Like what JoeyGS said, it's the resolution of the entire system.
The Intel NUC is not fanless, the fan is located underneath the board, below is an internal pic of an i5 Intel NUC:
(http://www.legitreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/haswell-fan-645x545.jpg)
To make it fanless, you need to buy a whole new case like the one from Akasa.
The restriction with HD audio media players aside from the limited hardware capability is the player software, it is not tweakable unlike the ones made for PC like Foobar, JRiver, HQPlayer etc. These software are capable of maximizing the PC resources for exclusive playback especially if you are into upsampling. And can even handle third party EQ, Convolution, Mid-side processing etc...
But, let me also put here the usual caveat; YMMV (your mileage may vary) ;)
Sadly my audio components are not resolving enough so I can't tell the difference. I even tried playing back a DSD audio file on an SMSL M8 DAC connected to either laptop or PC and I could not differentiate between the two using HD600 or HE-400i headphones. I'm limited to my budget-fi setup unfortunately :)
But having said that, I think the new "Intel NUC" style PC's can help in building a noiseless PC source that won't break your bank account. They do meet some of the requirements that JoeyGS mentioned:
- Processor is fanless and cooled passively (especially for Baytrail quad-core CPUs)
- PSU is fanless and uses a Pico PSU with separate adapter.
- Can use an SSD
- Can be upgraded to 16GB of memory
- Headless operation is possible (I think?) as they are designed to be used as HTPC with remote.
The only requirements they don't meet are the audio grade SATA/HDD cables and the Paul Pang audio grade USB card. Very specialized components that have to ordered from abroad I guess. The passive cases like Streacom are also very expensive. A good alternative to Streacom are the Akasa passive cases.
But having mentioned the above...
Wouldn't an HD Audio media player be more practical like the Dune HD Smart D1 or Popcorn Hour C300? They can use SSD's for storage, can be controlled remotely, and you can connect them to an external DAC or audiophile grade receiver. The only drawback I see is they don't have support for DSD audio files ^-^
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Wow!!! Haba na ng discussion ah!!! Thank you for all your insights, I do have a very cheap system with just full range speakers, a miniscule class d amp and a near obsolete NOS dac, but this combination gives me joy, though its a very resolving system that is vsensitive to changes, and my weak link is my digital source, the discussion here would really be helpful to guys like me who is searching for a better digital source may it be a laptop or a PC.
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my latest setup.. completely silent.. no moving parts:D
(http://i59.tinypic.com/smzh9i.jpg)
asrock itx j1900
aluminum case with psu (hubey yata ang brand)
8gbram
120gb ssd
cdrking wifi
so happy with this setup.. im upgrading all our core2 last decade office PCs to j1900... :D
not powerful but... sabi ng programmer... namin... akala niya daw i5 or i7... dahil mabilis daw.. i think its the ssd.. hehe kaya mabilis lahat
(http://i41.tinypic.com/w6xzjk.jpg)
my old htpc kayalang parted out na..
Server Torrent Rig HTPC (passive cooling) (around 21watts idle 45watts loaded)
intel i3-2100T
gigabyte h67 itx mobo
4gb ddr3 OCZ
3X samsung 2TB HD
pico psu
Thermalright HR-02 cpu cooler
custom copper chipset cooler
custom acrylic case
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v241/phoebeee/2011-08-12221918.jpg)
my friend's htpc (same specs as mine.. sabay namin binili parts)
intel i3-2100T (same)
gigabyte h67 itx mobo (same)
4gb ddr3 OCZ (same)
4X samsung 2TB HD (same)
pico psu (same)
Noctua NH-C12 cpu cooler
custom copper chipset cooler (same) actually.. donate niya din yung akin.. hehe.. malaking block yun na copper na hinati namin..
custom acrylic/aluminum case
both also fanless.. but may moving parts... yung terabyte hard disks.. since these were intended to be htpcs media players
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It actually will be dependent on the synergy between the amp section of your reciever and DAC.
very well said! :D
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Actually, the sound quality will be dependent on the synergy of ALL the parts used in the system. Hence a weak link no matter if it is a wire or a hdd or a process in the OS will affect the bottomline. IMHO....
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Hi Joey,
AO already installed on your system?
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Hi brader, lighter workload na ako pwede na mag drop by next week. :)
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Hi brader, lighter workload na ako pwede na mag drop by next week. :)
Ako ba yan brad? Text mo lang ako...
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Still finding time ..... quite busy (or intense) at work. Too tired to do it at night time. AO needs some reading before actual installation.
But am excited to hear what AO offers. Been running my CAPS for so many months with just JRiver and its time to see what AO does to SQ.
Hi Joey,
AO already installed on your system?
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Still finding time ..... quite busy (or intense) at work. Too tired to do it at night time. AO needs some reading before actual installation.
But am excited to hear what AO offers. Been running my CAPS for so many months with just JRiver and its time to see what AO does to SQ.
I would highly recommend you try Hqplayer brader... unfortunately you will need a keyboard and a monitor. headless just won't cut it.
It has a terrible interface imo but the sq... those using AO seem to like the hq enough to downgrade in cost, so to say....
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Will definitely do that brader ..... Thanks for the advise
I would highly recommend you try Hqplayer brader... unfortunately you will need a keyboard and a monitor. headless just won't cut it.
It has a terrible interface imo but the sq... those using AO seem to like the hq enough to downgrade in cost, so to say....