Author Topic: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?  (Read 26622 times)

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Offline meateater

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Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« on: Jan 17, 2011 at 07:53 AM »
Hi pinoydvders, just wanted to ask for your opinion regarding trumotion / motionflow technology,
whether or not I should consider this factor when purchasing a tv.

So far, I am looking at the samsung series 6 40", toshiba 40av700, or maybe a toshiba led or lg led tv.

Primary use is for cable tv watching 1/3, hd movies viewing 1/3 and gaming 1/3.

Mga masters, I'm looking forward to your valuable input!

Salamats!
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Offline jackryan

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Re: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« Reply #1 on: Jan 17, 2011 at 08:37 AM »
for movies and gaming, I want to have the trumotion / motionflow technology feature enabled...

Offline Clondalkin

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Re: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« Reply #2 on: Jan 17, 2011 at 09:20 AM »
Star Wars HDTV on a 240Hz motionflow Sony HX is the coolest version of SW Ive ever watched.    It was quite a novelty but I dont know if I (or my eyes) would not tire of that kind of look.  But yeah, it looks quite nice.

Offline rickmor

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Re: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« Reply #3 on: Jan 17, 2011 at 09:36 AM »
Same question here. I dont like the camcorder effect when watching downloaded tv shows. The picure seems to speed up a bit also. Would a NMT help? Is the video processing from a NMT better than the TV? (I have a Samsung 40c6900) I either use the clear setting or turn it off completely. I normally download US sd tv shows with the occasional MKV shows.

I just want shows as judders and blur free as possible without the camcorder effect.

Thanks.

Offline newwaveboy

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Re: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« Reply #4 on: Jan 17, 2011 at 10:34 AM »
Watching movies in Trumotion does give out the "wow" factor ...... it looks very nice, especially for animation movies.

However, IMO if it comes with the judder & halo-effects, then I'd rather stick to the normal 60Hz.


Offline Tempter

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Re: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« Reply #5 on: Jan 17, 2011 at 11:02 AM »
For me, no need. Not that noticeable, unless you nitpick.
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Offline meateater

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Re: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« Reply #6 on: Jan 17, 2011 at 11:22 AM »
to those who own tv's with trumotion, in what scenarios is the trumotion beneficial? and when do we turn it off?
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Offline andre

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Re: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« Reply #7 on: Jan 17, 2011 at 11:30 AM »
I like it on.

Offline pchin

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Re: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« Reply #8 on: Jan 17, 2011 at 03:05 PM »
Watching movies in Trumotion does give out the "wow" factor ...... it looks very nice, especially for animation movies.

However, IMO if it comes with the judder & halo-effects, then I'd rather stick to the normal 60Hz.

It will give you the "video-like" look instead of film-like. Some folks like it but many dislike it. If I watch it too long with this effect, I'll feel drowsy... ;D It will look great on animation & gaming.

It suppose to eliminate judder but some displays may actually make it worse.     

Offline newwaveboy

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Re: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« Reply #9 on: Jan 17, 2011 at 03:37 PM »
^ Correct, most trumotion LCD/LED's I have seen, does not seem to totally eliminate the judder & halo-effects .... hence, it does make movie viewing worse, in a way.

Like I said, it does look great in animation movies .... gives it a slightly 3D-feel to it.

I say, as long as there's no judder/halo, then leave it ON .... otherwise, gimme the reliable 60Hz.



 

Offline HDMI

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Re: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« Reply #10 on: Jan 17, 2011 at 05:50 PM »
I like having the motion flow turned on all the time, especially when watching HD sources (bluray/NMT). It gives the images a more realistic "feel". Unfortunately for SD sources, the tv over-compensates, making images look even more blurry, soft and not pleasing to watch. In this case, I just either minimize or turn it off completely. For us, its a totally different experience watching with the motion flow activated (we have a standard 1080p in the bedroom as basis for our comparison).

Offline streetsmart

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Re: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« Reply #11 on: Jan 17, 2011 at 06:03 PM »
I enjoy this feature with sports, particularly ... Pacquiao. Somehow, mas klaro mga suntok niya. Less of a blur.  ;D ;D ;D
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Offline ayosbathere

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Re: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« Reply #12 on: Jan 17, 2011 at 07:08 PM »
ilang #hz ba ang trumotion or motionflow?

for me.. ok na ok ang motionflow sa sports, animation and gaming. Lalo na sa laban ni MannyP and NBA Premium.. panalo :)


Offline b u l l e t

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Re: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« Reply #13 on: Jan 17, 2011 at 07:22 PM »
it's good for gaming and animation movies...just for me ;)

Offline frequenzy

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Re: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« Reply #14 on: Jan 17, 2011 at 08:51 PM »
sa akin laging na ka off. di ko sya trip :-)

Offline HDMI

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Re: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« Reply #15 on: Jan 17, 2011 at 09:08 PM »
ilang #hz ba ang trumotion or motionflow?

for me.. ok na ok ang motionflow sa sports, animation and gaming. Lalo na sa laban ni MannyP and NBA Premium.. panalo :)

Based on what I've seen in the market, its either 100Hz or 200Hz for LCDs. Plasmas I think have higher ratings.

sa akin laging na ka off. di ko sya trip :-)

I'm just curious, why get a tv with this feature when most of the time its turned off?

Offline frequenzy

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Re: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« Reply #16 on: Jan 17, 2011 at 10:51 PM »
I'm just curious, why get a tv with this feature when most of the time its turned off?
it's not really the reason why we bought the tv :-)

Offline Courage

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Re: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« Reply #17 on: Jan 17, 2011 at 11:10 PM »
Sadya bang ang effect nito eh malinaw na malinaw na Tele novela ang dating?

I saw Dark Knight being played in SnS and it's kinda weird na para syang hindi film..
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Offline Carlo777

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Re: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« Reply #18 on: Jan 17, 2011 at 11:51 PM »
Sadya bang ang effect nito eh malinaw na malinaw na Tele novela ang dating?

I saw Dark Knight being played in SnS and it's kinda weird na para syang hindi film..

Yes, with this feature on, it induces visual artifacts. I'll try to take a video of it, so people could see why I prefer to keep them off.

I get a lot of PMs asking why I don't favor them for most of my reviews done in the past.

Offline iAMhitek

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Re: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« Reply #19 on: Jan 18, 2011 at 08:01 AM »
Display Myths Shattered: How Monitor & HDTV Companies Cook Their Specs

Posted 05/18/10 at 04:03:33 PM  by Dr. Raymond Soneira Response Times: How Fast Is Fast Enough?

All displays show artifacts of one sort or another when their screen images change rapidly. It’s most easily detected with moving objects, or when the entire screen moves due to camera panning. In many cases, it’s not the fault of the display. Rather, it arises somewhere in the signal path from the source, which can be caused by camera blur, interlaced scanning, MPEG compression artifacts, poor video processing, insufficient bandwidth, or insufficient CPU speed in the case of games. Further confusing matters, artifacts can occur for different reasons with CRT, LCD, LCoS, plasma, and DLP technologies. It can even occur with OLEDs, if switching speeds aren’t sufficiently high.

But when people discuss motion artifacts, they are generally talking about LCD response time. And not surprisingly, the manufacturers’ published specs for response time have become one of the major deciding issues for many consumers. As a result, in the last five years or so, manufacturers have somehow pushed response time numbers from 25ms (milliseconds) to an essentially untenable 1ms.

So what, if anything, do these specs really mean?
Behind the Basics of Blur

Motion blur arises when the liquid crystal—the active element within an LCD—is unable to change its orientation and transmission rapidly enough when the picture changes from one frame to the next. Because the standard video rate is 60 frames per second, a pixel is expected to fully update its light-transmission opacity within 16.7 milliseconds (that is, in one 60th of a second). If it takes any longer than that, the image will show some degree of lag, which appears as a trailing smear or blur whenever there is motion.

LCD motion blur is generally evaluated with an industry-standard spec called response time that (supposedly) measures the time that it takes for a pixel to go from black to peak-intensity white, and then back to black again. However, most picture transitions involve much smaller and more subtle shades of gray-to-gray transitions, which can take longer to complete.

But it gets even more complicated than that because every pixel is actually made up of independent red, green, and blue sub-pixels that have their own separate intensities, frame-to-frame transitions, and times. The upshot is that visual blur within a detailed, moving picture is a fairly complex and nebulous phenomenon.
Motion Blur: Visual Proof

Motion blur is one of the most visually tangible display problems—the evidence speaks for itself in screenshots and photography, both of which can illustrate the relationship between response time and motion blur. In this article, I’ve included high-speed screenshots of moving DisplayMate test patterns, as well as moving test photos taken of a top-of-the-line, 120Hz Sony HDTV (shot with a Nikon DSLR using a fast shutter speed of 1/160 of a second). These images were taken in 2008, but the results wouldn’t be much different today.

Sony’s published response time for this XBR model is 8ms. Since this corresponds to a double transition (from black to peak white, and then back to black again), the single transition time (from black to white, or from white to black) should therefore be about 4ms.

But is the pixel response time really that fast? To find out, I ran DisplayMate tests in which black and white squares move across the screen at measured speeds. In the examples here, one photo shows the squares racing across at 1,093 pixels in a single second. The second photo shows the squares moving about 50 percent faster, covering 1,609 pixels in a single second. The white tips seen on the edges of the ghost images are artifacts resulting from electronic overdrive processing that’s being used to try to improve the response time by exaggerating transitions.

The screen on top was grabbed from a motion speed test of 1,093 pixels per second, with the black and white squares indicating real-world pixel response times of 60ms and 40ms, respectively. The screen on the bottom shows the same lengthy response times during a faster test of 1,609 pixels per second.

As you can see from my screenshots—each a brief snapshot in time with a shutter speed of 1/160 of a second, which is less than the refresh rate—it’s possible to make out at least eight individual screen refresh cycles on this 120Hz display. Indeed, in the screenshots, each square is shifted from the other by 1/120 of a second, which is 8ms, and those ghosted squares indicate that the older images haven’t yet dissipated. The upshot is that you’re looking at a true response time of about 65ms. In fact, a response time of much less than the 8ms refresh rate would be needed for there to be no visible blur. Obviously, 65ms blur in the screen shots doesn’t jibe with the manufacturer’s single-transition response time spec of 4ms.

The DisplayMate tests clearly demonstrate that the Sony’s real LCD response time is considerably longer than its published spec would indicate. And by no means are we picking on Sony, as it actually had the best performance of all of the LCDs in our tests.
But What about Moving Photos?

It must be stated that DisplayMate test patterns are very sensitive to imaging effects—this is by design. Photographic images, on the other hand, typically consist of a very complex and varied admixture of blended picture elements. With so much going on in an image, motion blur is easily obscured and lost within the complex, variegated imagery of a typical photograph. In particular, photographs of real-world content lack uniform backgrounds, and uniform backgrounds—like those in my DisplayMate tests—make it easier to see the motion blur trails. For this reason, we would expect moving photographs to show much less visible blur than what’s demonstrated with test patterns.

To wit: If you look carefully at the magnified marching band images below, you can see a total of at least six refresh cycles in the second photograph. This corresponds to a real-world pixel response time of 50ms. But the motion blur is still much less noticeable than what we see in DisplayMate’s punishing test patterns.

Witness two photos shot by Lauren Soneira. On top, a static image—thus no motion blur. On the bottom, the image is moving at 1,018 pixels per second, and you can see six refresh cycles indicating a 50ms response time.

Photographs are static images and moving them across a screen is quite different from live video, where images are a complex and varied mixture of continually blending picture components that are themselves constantly changing in both time and position. With all this screen activity going on, we would expect to detect much less motion blur in live video than with either of the moving static photographs or test patterns.
And Now for the Tests You've All Been Waiting For

To evaluate motion blur and artifacts in live video with lots of high-motion picture content, we set up a side-by-side comparison shoot-out with 11 HDTVs, and had both consumers and experts evaluate them. The top-of-the-line LCDs from Sony and Sharp had 120Hz screen refresh rates, the top-of-the-line Samsung LCD had strobed LED backlighting, and the other units had standard 60Hz screen refresh rates. Two of the units were plasma displays, and one was a pro-grade CRT studio monitor. The goal was to determine the degree to which this varied technology affected visible motion blur.

All of the HDTVs were fed identical, simultaneous digital video using an all-digital High Definition Tivo and a Blu-ray player. They were all compared side-by-side in the configuration as shown in the photo. The content included both daytime and nighttime sporting events, TV shows, and movies, all with lots of action. If any viewer thought he or she detected motion blur on any HDTV, we would repeatedly press the eight-second Tivo backup button and watch the sequence over and over again on all of the units until we fully understood exactly what was happening on each display. We did the same thing with the Blu-ray player and its content.

Behold our 11-display shootout—with the lights on. Photo by Dieter Michel.

The conclusions from all participants were consistent across the board, and will likely surprise most consumers: There was essentially no visually detectable motion blur on any of the LCD HDTVs in any of the video content we assembled.

When people thought they saw motion blur, with only a handful of minor exceptions, the blur was either in the source video or a temporary visual illusion that disappeared when the segments in question were reviewed. Unlike what we empirically identified in moving test patterns and moving photographs, the eye is unable to detect the blur in live video because the images are much more dynamic and complex—and undoubtedly because of the way the brain processes and extracts essential information from visual images.
So, Is Blurring Even an Issue for Videos, Movies, and Games?

For all of the tests—the DisplayMate test patterns, the moving photos, and the live video—we found that there was no visually detectable difference in motion blur for the mid- to top-of-the-line LCD HDTVs. This regardless of their claimed pixel response times, 60Hz or 120Hz refresh rates, strobed LED backlighting, or motion-enhancement processing. If you find this surprising then just re-read the classic tale of The Emperor’s New Clothes.
 
The underlying reason why higher refresh rates don’t mitigate blurring is that the true pixel response times of displays are considerably longer than the 60Hz video frame rate, so it doesn’t matter whether the screen refresh rate is 60Hz or 120Hz, or whether the LED backlights are strobed off during the frame updating. Similarly, adjusting the electronic processing enhancements that some models offer—controls that are supposed to reduce motion blur—only served to introduce objectionable contours, edges, and other artifacts onto moving objects without reducing the overall motion blur.

So that’s the story on video. What significance do these results have for PC gamers?

First, while motion blur isn’t generally noticeable with live video, it’s more likely to be seen by gamers who intently focus on particular moving objects. For this reason, the blur illustrated above with test patterns and test photos applies.

Second, don’t pay much attention to a manufacturer’s response time specs because they are so different from the real response time and motion blur that we have demonstrated here.

Third, while 120Hz refresh rate monitors and HDTVs don’t inherently improve on motion blur over the 60Hz models, they are generally equipped with better performing panels and electronics, so they may still produce superior image and picture quality. And if you’re a movie buff, the 120Hz units should offer better motion interpolation from the 24 frames per second used in all movies shot on film. The 60Hz models need 3:2 pull-down, which produces judder, but most people seldom notice it.

Fourth, be aware that the latest 240Hz displays don’t offer any real picture-quality performance improvements, and are just a marketing gimmick taken to an absurd level.

For more information and details, see my article on LCD response time and motion blur here: www.displaymate.com/LCD_Response_Time_ShootOut.htm.

Personally, I just prefer the native 60 hertz since I am on movies, PC, and/or HTPC only and not a real gamer (almost everyday lang sa Plants vs. Zombies nilalaro ko) kasi cheaper pa ang TV.
« Last Edit: Jan 18, 2011 at 08:13 AM by iAMhitek »

Offline Clondalkin

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Re: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« Reply #20 on: Jan 18, 2011 at 08:50 AM »
Based on what I've seen in the market, its either 100Hz or 200Hz for LCDs. Plasmas I think have higher ratings.

I'm just curious, why get a tv with this feature when most of the time its turned off?

240Hz ang highest ng Sony, Sharp, Toshiba.  I saw an LG with 480Hz Trumotion (divisible ng 60Hz - 50Hz where applicable)

This specific feature is the BIGGEST feature the LCD makers are trying to sell nowadays. Note that their highest-end models also have the highest-end Trumotion implementation - maganda ang dating kung sa maganda lalo na yung mga bagong bagong model - liking the look or not is another matter hence the option to disable is there.  In other words, kung walang Trumotion yung LCD or hindi maganda ang implementation, either entry level or luma nang model - no disrespect to anyone but that's the reality of the LCD business. 

Im actually hoping they can do a similar thing to Plasmas, but probably not possible.  The feature is pretty cool.  Yeah, live sports telecasts in high def would benefit a lot.


Offline shauntot

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Re: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« Reply #21 on: Jan 18, 2011 at 01:38 PM »
on the subject, which is the best value for money deal for a 32" LCD with 120hz nowadays? Doesn't need to be full HD, kahit 720p is fine for me. TIA :)

Offline meateater

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Re: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« Reply #22 on: Jan 18, 2011 at 02:19 PM »
thanks for the replies!
From what I have read so far, I learned that it is something nice to have, but not a necessary feature.
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Offline ayosbathere

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Re: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« Reply #23 on: Jan 18, 2011 at 03:25 PM »
it's not really the reason why we bought the tv :-)
^+1 pag sa movie using.. I bought it only for sport viewing :)

For movies, You may find the good PQ review if the motionflow turn off.

Well other people enjoy watching movies while motionflow is ON. Kaya bilib ako sa kanila nakakatagal sila mag watch at hindi sumasakit ang mata. ... 20/20 kasi vision ko kaya hindi talaga pwede sa mata ko watching movies na naka ON motionflow.

Offline HDMI

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Re: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« Reply #24 on: Jan 18, 2011 at 03:59 PM »
^+1 pag sa movie using.. I bought it only for sport viewing :)

For movies, You may find the good PQ review if the motionflow turn off.

Well other people enjoy watching movies while motionflow is ON. Kaya bilib ako sa kanila nakakatagal sila mag watch at hindi sumasakit ang mata. ... 20/20 kasi vision ko kaya hindi talaga pwede sa mata ko watching movies na naka ON motionflow.

I remember getting a head-ache after watching our tv for the 1st time with the motionflow on turned on. But I didn't experience further headaches afterwards, could it be my eyes have adjusted to the tv? I guess not turning the motionflow to its maximum setting works fine with our viewing.

Offline Darth Fader

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Re: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« Reply #25 on: Jan 21, 2011 at 12:01 PM »
Sadya bang ang effect nito eh malinaw na malinaw na Tele novela ang dating?

I saw Dark Knight being played in SnS and it's kinda weird na para syang hindi film..

sakto! parang tele-novela! hehe.. it's weird because it's not the usual way we see movies.

It's really weird and I love it! :)

I saw a CRT-TV so many years ago (Philips Pixel Plus) that displayed a similar effect (parang tele-novela).. I even remember The Fast and the Furious being played as demo.  I didn't know how/why it appeared that way.. was it just a higher resolution?  didn't even know about refresh rates and response times..  basta sabi ko gusto ko nun!  but I didn't have money to buy at that time (70k ata yun).  di pa ata uso yung LCD noon.  then after some time, it disappeared.  I saw Pixel Plus 2 pero hindi na ganun yung effect..

Different LCD/LEDs came and went.. yeah, the movies are clearer but I did not see that same effect.. until I saw an LG LCD (32" LH50 series ata).  Tinanong ko agad yung rep kung paano nagmukhang "live" yung movie kasi di ko naman nakita yun sa ibang brands/models... sabi nya, it's the low response time (2.4ms) matched with refresh rate 120Hz TruMotion.. na LG lang "daw" ang nakagawa.  It seemed true cuz all the other brands I saw didn't have that "effect."  when I checked others, 120Hz pero 5ms.. if I remember right, yung iba naman 2ms pero 60Hz.

then I made up my mind.. in buying my next TV, higher resolution is not enough reason to buy.. it has to be something more special than that.

20k for a 32" Full HD?  nah...

30k for 32" Full HD with Tru Motion?  a resounding YES!  :D

And so I bought LG 32LE5500 at SnS!  8)

on the subject, which is the best value for money deal for a 32" LCD with 120hz nowadays? Doesn't need to be full HD, kahit 720p is fine for me. TIA :)

Best value for money: LG's 32LE5500 at SnS!  ;)

Offline buhakee

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Re: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« Reply #26 on: Jan 21, 2011 at 01:07 PM »

I saw a CRT-TV so many years ago (Philips Pixel Plus) that displayed a similar effect (parang tele-novela)..

naalala ko din yan dati...eto yung combo dati: pixel plus tv + dvd player with progressive scan ON = movies looked like they were shot using a camcorder

Offline Tempter

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Re: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« Reply #27 on: Jan 21, 2011 at 01:45 PM »
naalala ko din yan dati...eto yung combo dati: pixel plus tv + dvd player with progressive scan ON = movies looked like they were shot using a camcorder

I dont like that effect  ;D

I love the grainy looks of films...
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Re: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« Reply #28 on: Jan 21, 2011 at 01:54 PM »
I dont like that effect  ;D

I love the grainy looks of films...

same here...see the movie the way the director wants it to be seen hehe

Offline thenorthface

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Re: Trumotion / motionflow technology, do we need it?
« Reply #29 on: Jan 23, 2011 at 07:06 PM »
Best value for money: LG's 32LE5500 at SnS!  ;)

agree on this.  a bit OT, but what if we put PIP in the equation - what's the best choice? 

how come LG took out PIP from their feature list?