Topic: The Religion Thread

[Klaus Weasley]

God knows what he said and probably so does Abraham. But still, to show obedience, Abraham was willing to sacrifice Isaac.

What you said doesn't really disprove my point. At best, it's a phony dog-and-pony show and at worst, it's God being an emotionally abusive bastard.

But that's not the only Bible story with horrific implications. The lesson of the Adam and Eve story is: REMAIN STUPID AND BLINDLY OBEY. If you really deconstruct all the nuts and bolts of it, that's the takeaway.

It's the reason why religious institutions love poor people. Poor people can't afford proper education. The more educated you are, the more intelligent you are, the more you're likely to develop critical thinking skills, the more you develop critical thinking skills, the less religious you are likely to be and the less religious you're likely to be, the less money you are likely to give your churches.

[dodie]

What about the story of Abraham and Isaac? God came down from Heaven and tells Abraham to sacrifice his son as offering to him.....and he was going to do it! I don't care if he was crying and was hesitant to do it.....BUT HE WAS GOING TO DO IT! When I was a kid, I was told that this is God's way of testing Abraham's love for him. As a kid, I thought it made sense but as an adult, I realized how f-ed up it is for a supposedly loving God to do that and how f-ed up Abraham is for not telling God to f**k off.

If you try doing that to your child. Give your child a puppy. Make him love that puppy. Then out of the blue, you tell your child, "If you love me, kill your puppy!" That's emotional abuse.

If you follow and believe each and everything your church says without criticizing it, studying it and seeing if it makes sense (which is what many religious people do anyway because they don't like to think), then yes.

All of the above.

una sa lahat, ang diyos ko ay si kristo. mRaming patotoo sa bibliya ang kristo ko ay hindi tulad ng diyos na sinasabi mo. kung ipipilit mo na ang kristo ko ay hindi makatarungang dyos, wala na akong magagawa sa paniniwala mo. believing in christ is the foundation of my faith. if your calling other gods as f..ng a-hole, then its up for their believers to defend it against you. but if you call my jesus christ an a-hole then i should do something to protect the foundation of my faith, the god that i believe in. and this will be so personal, and i promise you that!

[Nelson de Leon]

Sorry. Life is too short to worry about such things. My only motto in life what the quote you see above. No more, no less. Live a good life, do good things. Don't worry about dogma. If there's a God as He's really good and loving, He'll understand. But if He's the God of religious conservatives, I would rather go to hell than spend eternity with that a-hole.

I use explicit, provocative language because I want more believers to think about what they believe more critically, to think for themselves, to try and look at where other people are coming from and to not just blindly follow things that their priest, pastor, imam, rabbi, etc. tells them.

I'm not sure if the words you used fall under explicit and provocative.

Do you think you are going good things by using those languages? I don't know if anyone will agree here that it is good. IMHO, you don't need to use those languages because the readers are well educated. Educated enough to know what good and bad is.

What you said doesn't really disprove my point. At best, it's a phony dog-and-pony show and at worst, it's God being an emotionally abusive bastard.

But that's not the only Bible story with horrific implications. The lesson of the Adam and Eve story is: REMAIN STUPID AND BLINDLY OBEY. If you really deconstruct all the nuts and bolts of it, that's the takeaway.

It's the reason why religious institutions love poor people. Poor people can't afford proper education. The more educated you are, the more intelligent you are, the more you're likely to develop critical thinking skills, the more you develop critical thinking skills, the less religious you are likely to be and the less religious you're likely to be, the less money you are likely to give your churches.

I'm not again sure if everyone will agree here. Are you trying to say that people who believe in God (like you said you are) are not educated or intelligent?

[Klaus Weasley]

una sa lahat, ang diyos ko ay si kristo. mRaming patotoo sa bibliya ang kristo ko ay hindi tulad ng diyos na sinasabi mo. kung ipipilit mo na ang kristo ko ay hindi makatarungang dyos, wala na akong magagawa sa paniniwala mo. believing in christ is the foundation of my faith. if your calling other gods as f..ng a-hole, then its up for their believers to defend it against you. but if you call my jesus christ an a-hole then i should do something to protect the foundation of my faith, the god that i believe in. and this will be so personal, and i promise you that!

If you read everything I say, I never called Jesus an a-hole. I called the God of religious conservatives and religious fundamentalists an a-hole. Never Jesus. Believe it or not, I believe and agree with His teachings.

However, I find many so-called Christians to be self-righteous hypocrites. I also don't find any spiritual or religious fulfillment in any church or any organized religious settings.

In fact, I'm more likely to be moved by a great film, an excellent piece of music, a good book, a beautiful play, a painting or going out and looking at the wonders of nature than any sermon, Bible study or church group could ever give me. I've had my share of those growing up in a Catholic school and being raised Catholic and it does nothing for me except maybe make me feel occasionally unnecessarily guilty. I also find reading up on other points of view apart from what I've been taught in Church (including atheistic points of view) to be more comforting and enlightening than just any PRAISE THE LORD type of Bible study.

[Klaus Weasley]

Are you trying to say that people who believe in God (like you said you are) are not educated or intelligent?

There's a difference between being religious and believing in God. I believe in God but I'm not religious.

There IS however a scientific study that say that religious people are generally less intelligent.

[Nelson de Leon]

There's a difference between being religious and believing in God. I believe in God but I'm not religious.

There IS however a scientific study that say that religious people are generally less intelligent.

Believing in God is the first step. Knowing Him is the next.

[Klaus Weasley]

Believing in God is the first step. Knowing Him is the next.

I don't believe you can ever "know" God because if you can, there wouldn't be so many religions. If you tell me that you can actually KNOW God, you're a scam artist.

[Nelson de Leon]

I don't believe you can ever "know" God because if you can, there wouldn't be so many religions. If you tell me that you can actually KNOW God, you're a scam artist.

You are right! But we can always exert effort in trying.

[Klaus Weasley]

You are right! But we can always exert effort in trying.

Sure. But whatever it is, for me, it will DEFINITELY not be through religion. I prefer to exert my effort "know" God through the arts and sciences. I have nothing against people who are religious (as long as you're not harming people or imposing your morals on people who disagree with you) but to me, religion is largely a waste of time and only valuable as a cultural tradition. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't find spirituality, fulfillment or comfort in religious dogma.

I guess it's because in most of my experience with religion involves people who claim to have all the answers. I know for a fact that that's simply not true.

[Nelson de Leon]

Sure. But whatever it is, for me, it will DEFINITELY not be through religion. I prefer to exert my effort "know" God through the arts and sciences. I have nothing against people who are religious (as long as you're not harming people or imposing your morals on people who disagree with you) but to me, religion is largely a waste of time and only valuable as a cultural tradition. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't find spirituality, fulfillment or comfort in religious dogma.

I guess it's because in most of my experience with religion involves people who claim to have all the answers. I know for a fact that that's simply not true.

You are correct. you cannot find that in religion. you just have to establish your own relationship with the Creator.

[luis]

What you said doesn't really disprove my point. At best, it's a phony dog-and-pony show and at worst, it's God being an emotionally abusive bastard.

sir please stop associating derogatory words with God, it's offending for me.  all I request is a little respect.  in the same manner I am not critical of your stand.

we have a common grounds as you mentioned like: you believe in God, you agree and believe in Jesus' teachings and you find fulfillment in great movies, good music, a beautiful play, etc. same for me.

this implies that we have a common discernment of good and bad, we can build something from that.  at the on set, I was already suspecting the idea of you having a very bad experience with religion or with religious people. having a bad experience on religion is not uncommon, just move forward.

let me share a story of two priests and two altar boys.  on a Sunday mass, one altar boy accidentally spilled something on the altar and the priest scolded the poor boy right there and then.  on another Sunday mass, the same incident happened involving another boy and another priest but the this time the priest just smiled at the boy and wiped the spot.  when they grew old, the altar boy who was scolded became a rebel while the second altar boy who was understood by the priest became the president of his country somewhere in Europe.

happy reading and peace.   

[Klaus Weasley]

this implies that we have a common discernment of good and bad, we can build something from that.  at the on set, I was already suspecting the idea of you having a very bad experience with religion or with religious people. having a bad experience on religion is not uncommon, just move forward.

Actually, most of my experience with religion has been positive. Religion was even my favorite class in school at one point. There may have been a couple of instances when it wasn't but on the whole, yes, it's largely positive. Taking philosophy classes and reading about different points of view, religious and otherwise, on top of the constant meddling and self-righteous hypocrisies I see with a lot of religious people, as well as rules that are either detached from reality (contraception, divorce) and/or needlessly discriminatory/cruel (gays), all the scandals, etc. have contributed to my distaste for organized religion. Of course, there are liberal religions out there but I don't feel the need for it. Truth be told, I still go to church with my parents but only out of respect for them since I still live with them. If I was on my own, I'd probably only go in Christmas and Easter.

I also use strong language to wake you up into thinking. Filipinos do tend to be religiously conservative and a lot of them follow their faith blindly and blind respect towards religiosity and God and transitively have blind obedience and almost automatic respect towards priests and religious people. For me? No. Just because you're a priest, preacher or a religious person, it doesn't necessarily make you an automatic good person. You're just someone with an opinion. No more, no less. 

[barrister]

...Truth be told, I still go to church with my parents but only out of respect for them since I still live with them. If I was on my own, I'd probably only go in Christmas and Easter.

You'd voluntarily attend mass on Christmas and Easter?

Now that's surprising.

Study how they figured out the dates for Christmas and Easter and you'll find that they're both wrong.  Christmas is not in December; Easter is not on Sunday.

That's one of the reasons why I stopped going to mass when I was in my 20s (I used to be a devout Catholic).  If they can't get something as as simple as that right, they wouldn't be able to get the more complex doctrines right either. 

[Klaus Weasley]

You'd voluntarily attend mass on Christmas and Easter?

Now that's surprising.

I just like to, that's all. It's one part of my religious upbringing I will take with me always.

Study how they figured out the dates for Christmas and Easter and you'll find that they're both wrong.  Christmas is not in December; Easter is not on Sunday.

I know. Christmas and Easter have Pagan origins. The Church only celebrate Christmas and Easter on those dates so that Pagans will convert to Christianity easily because they already have Pagan celebrations in those dates.

That's one of the reasons why I stopped going to mass when I was in my 20s (I used to be a devout Catholic).  If they can't get something as as simple as that right, they wouldn't be able to get the more complex doctrines right either. 

Yes, which is why I think we shouldn't bow our heads to their authority and we should DEFINITELY not make them run our government.

[barrister]

I just like to, that's all. It's one part of my religious upbringing I will take with me always.

I think it's a waste of time.
 
But I don't know.  You have your own reasons.

[dpogs]

@klaus

"doing good" according to him does not include insulting or cursing the god of other religions/faith... well wala na tayong magagawa ganyan ang gusto ng god niya... his god allows him to do that...

how about Allah? can you say the same thing?

[Klaus Weasley]

how about Allah? can you say the same thing?

Allah is just "God" in Arabic. Arab Christians call their God "Allah" and Muslims pretty much worship the same God as the Christians and the Jews anyway.

I'm not mocking "God" per se. I'm criticizing certain people's IDEA of God.

Parang ganito:

[dpogs]

you just interpret what you read in the Bible... its not people's idea of God... its yours...

ang ibig mo bang sabihin na "critizing some people's idea of God" is to call their God an a-hole? well you really critized them well... hope your god can still forgive you... oh i forgot... according to your idea... your god is loving and will not put you in sufferring... well i really envy your god... puwede ko palang gawin kahit ano sa tingin ko ay tama and still god will not punish me or justice me....

is your god allows you to call other god a-hole? where do you based all your action, aside from law of our nation?

[Moks007]

Klaus, If you at least step foot sa church then just pray for enlightenment. Like Jesus said, if you find the lost sheep it will make you happier than ever. He also said a good fruit don't grow in bad trees. I'm not insulting anybody here, but for me this is saying it is up to YOU. You can make a change and believe. Don't analyze too much, some questions will never be answered. Just buy yourself a Bible and read a few passages every night. Don't get angry and don't always ask, why this and that.  For me, yun mga questions on how humans got here, sufferings, question of fairness, insults, why this happened in the Bible etc. etc. will never be answered until you meet HIM.

Good luck Klaus.



 

[Quitacet]

^ how about ishmael? Abraham might have thought God wants me to kill Isaac so that ishmael can start jumpstart my descendant-making operations?

[DVD_Freak]

Truth be told, I still go to church with my parents but only out of respect for them since I still live with them. If I was on my own, I'd probably only go in Christmas and Easter.

Well there goes your credibility down a notch.  All these hard stance against religion complete with name-calling and offensive/derogatory words....yet you still go to church presumably every Sunday.  It maybe out of respect for your parents.  But if you feel strongly about your conviction, why bother?

[Moks007]

^ how about ishmael? Abraham might have thought God wants me to kill Isaac so that ishmael can start jumpstart my descendant-making operations?

I have to review the Bible history hehe.. But this is what I know. Ishmael's mother is from the maid Hagar, Ishmael's descendants will become the Palestinians. While si Isaac is from Sarah (true wife), which descendants will become the Israelites. So yun fighting ngayon between Palestinians and Israelites, they are actually brothers. This happened because Abraham and Sarah cannot have a child for the longest time and Sarah gave Hagar and thus Ishmael was born. They didn't trust God.

God told Abraham "from wikipedia"..God reassured Abraham that "in Isaac shall seed be called to thee." (Genesis 21:12) He also said that Ishmael would make a nation, "because he is thy seed". (Genesis 21:9–13)

[Moks007]

For me the church have its purpose. Depression and suffering can get to you. We are just human. This is a time when there will be anger and frustration with God. When this happens, you have to talk to somebody and it is usually the pastor or the church members or your friends sa church to give you comfort and support.

[tony]

was watching the History channels' re run of the Guyana massacre, how can so many people be duped by the likes of Jim Jones?

[Klaus Weasley]

Klaus, If you at least step foot sa church then just pray for enlightenment.

If you read what I've been writing, I do go to church every Sunday with my parents purely out of respect. But very seldom does a priest say anything that a.) I don't already know or b.) actually enlightening.

Don't analyze too much,

I actually dislike being told to do this. Religion is about finding answers to what's the meaning of life and death. These are very heady and heavy topics. Of course I'm not gonna take everything a priest or a preacher says on face value. Oh and I'm also allergic to any priest or preacher or pastor who rails against homosexuals, sexual permissiveness and rock 'n' roll. Anyone who yaks their mouths on those topics are dangerous idiots in my book. 

some questions will never be answered.

I know. And I'm actually fine with that.

Just buy yourself a Bible and read a few passages every night.

Tried it. Didn't work. If anything, it actually made me doubt the veracity of organized religion even more.

Don't get angry and don't always ask, why this and that.  For me, yun mga questions on how humans got here, sufferings, question of fairness, insults, why this happened in the Bible etc. etc. will never be answered until you meet HIM.

Good luck Klaus.

Contrary to how I come across here, I'm not actually angry. I'm pretty at peace with the fact that I don't believe in organized religion. The term for someone like is a deist. Someone who believes in a Higher Power but rejects organized religion. I do like and respect the cultural aspects of religion that brings people together but I reject it as a primary source of enlightenment, knowledge and morality.



 
[/quote]

[leomarley]

question lang. does your parents know your stance about religion? ako kasi alam ng mom ko na i'm agnostic and she's quite ok if don't go to church. she serves as a church usherette pa every sunday and saturday.

[docelmo]

I quite agree w/ some of sir Klaus' point on religion.

I believe the purest form "religion" was when the apostles were still preaching the gospel something in the
first century. After that numerous things were added and subtracted to "fit" the society at that time....prime example would Idolatry.

Just as one prof in a documentary commented: "The change in church from the first century on to the dark ages and present is so mind boggling!" It's like going into a tunnel and going out the other way in an entirely different and unrecognizable location!

[Moks007]

was watching the History channels' re run of the Guyana massacre, how can so many people be duped by the likes of Jim Jones?

There is also another one,  yun sa Waco, Texas. I forgot the guys name. DEA or fire and tobacco police stormed its compound.

Religion, Especially Christianity, was destroyed  or being destroyed when you have sectors  like that taking advantage and using God's name. These are false prophets. In the Bible, Jesus said be careful because there will be a lot of false prophets. That is the problem. This is also the problem why people will be turned off and not believe in Christ.

During the medieval days diba you have people holding the Bible on one hand and a sword on the other hand. Before they go out killing, they will say, "in Jesus name" or "in God's name" or something in that nature. Kaya naging ganun na, people take advantage. Falsely using God's name.

[Moks007]

Ok na search ko na yun sa Waco, Texas. It's the Branch Davidians. Led by David Koresh.

[barrister]

was watching the History channels' re run of the Guyana massacre, how can so many people be duped by the likes of Jim Jones?

Napanood ko yon.

May strategy ang mga ganyang kulto.  They start with society's outcasts, welcome them with open arms, then gradually isolate them from the outside world.  No contact with family, no newspapers, no TV, radio, etc.  Puro Jim Jones lang ang naririnig.