Author Topic: The Religion Thread  (Read 357726 times)

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Offline barrister

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1950 on: Oct 13, 2015 at 11:03 AM »
Apologies for late reply. Yes, I do believe there are already humans there now.

In that case, we will not be able to agree.

I believe there are no humans in heaven yet.  Without this fundamental principle, I will not be able to continue my discussion.

Since you said you believe there are humans in heaven now, then that's the end of it.
« Last Edit: Oct 13, 2015 at 11:05 AM by barrister »

Offline jerix

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1951 on: Oct 13, 2015 at 12:00 PM »
I am just wondering -- where is heaven? :-\
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Offline barrister

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1952 on: Oct 13, 2015 at 02:04 PM »
There are many concepts of heaven, depending on the religious doctrine.  The common concept is that heaven is the place where God is. It cannot be pinpointed GPS style, because it is a spiritual place, not a physical place.


=====================================


In the bible, there are three heavens.  The bible does not mention a first or second heaven word-for-word, but it does mention a third heaven word-for-word.  If there is a third heaven, then logically, there must be a first and second heaven.

The first heaven is a physical location in the earth's atmosphere:

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. (Gen. 7:11)

It means water from below and above - from the depths of the earth and from the atmosphere - came and brought the great flood. (Contrary to popular belief, the flood was not composed of rain alone.)

The second heaven is the physical area beyond the earth's atmosphere:

13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. (Exo. 32:13)

This heaven refers to the place where stars are located, which is the universe outside the earth's atmosphere.  Rainwater comes from the atmosphere (1st heaven); stars are found in outer space (2nd heaven).

The third heaven is the spiritual dwelling place of God:

I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. (2 Cor. 12:1-2)

This is a vision given to Paul where he was taken to the third heaven 14 years before he wrote the Second Epistle to the Corinthians.  He was not taken to heaven, but was merely shown a vision.

The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them. (Ps. 2:4)

The third heaven is the spiritual pace where God is enthroned.


======================================


The term "seventh heaven" is a popular expression, although it is not biblical.

This belief, found in various religions such as Hinduism and Sumerian, refers not to seven heavens, but the different divisions in one heaven.

In the Catholic faith, it is a popular belief that heaven is divided into seven levels of beatitude.  The highest level is the seventh.  However, this belief is not part of official Catholic doctrine.
« Last Edit: Oct 13, 2015 at 02:38 PM by barrister »

Offline majoe

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1953 on: Oct 13, 2015 at 04:17 PM »
There are many concepts of heaven, depending on the religious doctrine.  The common concept is that heaven is the place where God is. It cannot be pinpointed GPS style, because it is a spiritual place, not a physical place.


=====================================


In the bible, there are three heavens.  The bible does not mention a first or second heaven word-for-word, but it does mention a third heaven word-for-word.  If there is a third heaven, then logically, there must be a first and second heaven.

The first heaven is a physical location in the earth's atmosphere:

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. (Gen. 7:11)

It means water from below and above - from the depths of the earth and from the atmosphere - came and brought the great flood. (Contrary to popular belief, the flood was not composed of rain alone.)

The second heaven is the physical area beyond the earth's atmosphere:

13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. (Exo. 32:13)

This heaven refers to the place where stars are located, which is the universe outside the earth's atmosphere.  Rainwater comes from the atmosphere (1st heaven); stars are found in outer space (2nd heaven).

The third heaven is the spiritual dwelling place of God:

I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. (2 Cor. 12:1-2)

This is a vision given to Paul where he was taken to the third heaven 14 years before he wrote the Second Epistle to the Corinthians.  He was not taken to heaven, but was merely shown a vision.

The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them. (Ps. 2:4)

The third heaven is the spiritual pace where God is enthroned.


======================================


The term "seventh heaven" is a popular expression, although it is not biblical.

This belief, found in various religions such as Hinduism and Sumerian, refers not to seven heavens, but the different divisions in one heaven.

In the Catholic faith, it is a popular belief that heaven is divided into seven levels of beatitude.  The highest level is the seventh.  However, this belief is not part of official Catholic doctrine.


atty, pano natin reconcile yan dito.


KJV

Proverbs 8

30Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.



John 14

2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.




sabi ni brod Eli, dyan sa earth na yan nananahan ang Diyos.


Offline majoe

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1954 on: Oct 13, 2015 at 04:21 PM »
What I'm trying to say is how do we tell the literal from the symbolic?

pag binasa mo ng buo yung revelation, babanggitin naman dun kung ano yung mga symbolic dun.

Offline barrister

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1955 on: Oct 13, 2015 at 06:52 PM »
atty, pano natin reconcile yan dito.

Hindi yata kailangan ng reconciliation, kasi walang contradiction.
 
 
==================================
 
 
KJV

Proverbs 8

30Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.


The Son was rejoicing because He was pleased with what was created; because what was created was good.  The Son was not rejoicing while He was located in the habitable part of the earth.   

The KJV does not have a good translation for those verses.  So, here's the NIV rendition, and let's extend it to verses 22-31, so that the context becomes clear. 

Notice that the topic is about creation --- (a) The Son was begotten before creation; and (b) The Son was present during and after creation.
 
First, Prov. 8:22-26 --- The Son is begotten before the creation of the world:
 
22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; 23 I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be. 24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth, when there were no springs overflowing with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the world or its fields or any of the dust of the earth. (Prov. 8:22-26)

(Side note --- Notice that the Son was not created.  He was begotten.  The Father gave birth to the Son.)
 
Next, Prov. 8:27-31 --- The Son was present during the creation of the world, then after creation, the Son was constantly at the Father's side:
 
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. 30  Then I was constantly at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, 31 rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind. (Prov. 8:27-31)
 
The Son was present during creation.  After creation, the Son was constantly at the Father's side.  The Son was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing in the Father's presence.
 
Why was the Son rejoicing? Because He saw that the things created were good.  He was pleased with what was created.  It does not mean that God the Son was living on earth and was rejoicing while He was on earth. 
 
Where was the Father?  In the third heaven.  No contradiction there.
 
Where was the Son after creation?  Also in the third heaven, at the Father's side.  Why was the Son not at the Father's side during creation?  Because the Son was the one creating, under instructions from the Father.
 
 
==================================
 

John 14

2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

This is another problematic translation by the KJV.  The word "mansions" is not accurate.
 
Here's the NIV rendition:
 
2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. (John 14:2-3)

The Father's house has many rooms.  This is the Father's house, not heaven.  The bible does not refer to heaven as the Father's house.
 
Jesus refers to the temple in Jerusalem as His Father's house:

"Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" (Luke 2:49)
To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father's house into a market!" (John 2:16)

But that is not heaven, that is a temple, which is only a representation of the Holy City of Jerusalem from heaven. Built around the exterior wall of the temple in Jerusalem were many chambers for the priests.  The priests used those chambers when they were counseling worshippers.

Therefore the "many mansions" in the KJV are the many chambers in the temple, which was a representation during those times of the Holy City that is to come.  That is why the meaning of the chambers would have been clear to Jesus' audience; unfortunately, it is no longer clear to modern readers today.
 
The Holy City from heaven is mentioned in Revelation:
 
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.  (Rev. 21:10)
 
There will be no more chambers for the priests, because the City will not have a temple:
 
22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. (Rev. 21:22)
 
The many chambers in the New Jerusalem from heaven will now be symbolic chambers for the new priests.  It means the "chambers" are now positions of authority for those new priests. 
 
And who are the new priests?  Those who will be given immortal bodies at the first resurrection, who will become rulers and priests who will reign with Christ for 1,000 years over the nations of the earth:
 
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth. (Rev. 5:10)
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. (Rev. 20:6) 

Since the Father's house is not heaven, then there is again no contradiction.


This subject matter is too much for those with only a passing interest in the bible.  Baka antukin yung ibang readers natin.
 
Ang problema kasi, masyadong mabigat yung mga verses na tinatanong mo sir...  :( 
 
 
==================================

 
sabi ni brod Eli, dyan sa earth na yan nananahan ang Diyos.

Ewan ko lang.  Parang hindi ganon ang naaalala ko.  Madalas kasi akong manood ng programa niya dati, noong nasa Philippines pa siya.
 
Ang sinasabi niya noon, ang Diyos ay nasa langit.  Ang topic niya, tinututulan niya yung madalas sabihin ng iba na "God is everywhere" (omnipresence).
 
Wala akong naaalala na sinabi ni Brod Eli na ang Diyos ay nananahan sa New Jerusalem.  Hindi puwedeng tahanan ng Ama yon, kasi ginawa iyon para ibaba mula sa langit papunta sa lupa.  Hindi talaga para sa langit yon.


Siguro binasa lang ang ganitong talata:

2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. (Rev. 21:2-3)

Ang sabi, God will dwell with them.  Pero hindi pa rin God's dwelling place ang tabernacle.  It only means the tabernacle will be with the people.

Tignan mo yung Old Testament.  Ang sabi, by means of the tabernacle, God will dwell among them:

8 “Then have them make a sanctuary for me, and I will dwell among them. 9 Make this tabernacle and all its furnishings exactly like the pattern I will show you. (Exod. 25:8-9)

Pero ang sabi rin, hindi pa rin daw doon ang dwelling ng Diyos.

Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed ... Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands. Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? Hath not my hand made all these things?  (Acts 7:44; 48, 49)

Hindi raw tumatahan ang Diyos sa gawa ng tao, samantalang gawa ng tao ang tabernacle/temple, at Siya mismo ang nagsabi na tatahan Siya doon.

E di kahit sabihin na dwelling Niya ang tabernacle/temple, representation lang yon, at nasa heaven pa rin talaga ang dwelling Niya.
« Last Edit: Oct 13, 2015 at 10:57 PM by barrister »

Offline JT

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1956 on: Oct 14, 2015 at 08:34 AM »
In that case, we will not be able to agree.

I believe there are no humans in heaven yet.  Without this fundamental principle, I will not be able to continue my discussion.

Since you said you believe there are humans in heaven now, then that's the end of it.

Awww, it's ok. You have the right to remain silent naman eh. If you can't think no more of it, then I'll just agree to disagree.

Thanks Atty.

Offline tony

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1957 on: Oct 14, 2015 at 11:22 AM »
Is God really loving the poor? why did he make billions of them?
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline sirhc

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1958 on: Oct 14, 2015 at 11:40 AM »
Is God really loving the poor? why did he make billions of them?

I think it maybe unfair to tag the current plight of the poor billions on God. Capitalism, Imperialism, Colonialism and a bunch of other isms. All stems from the greed and evils of men.
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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1959 on: Oct 14, 2015 at 11:50 AM »
I agree.

It is not true that God made billions of poor people.  Man did it to himself by eating the fruit.

The original quote is popularly attributed to Abraham Lincoln: "God must have loved the common people --- He made so many of them.''  However, there is no proof that Abe actually said it.

The quote later evolved for religious purposes by changing "the common people" to "the poor."
« Last Edit: Oct 14, 2015 at 11:51 AM by barrister »

Offline tony

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1960 on: Oct 14, 2015 at 12:36 PM »
well, rich people are not common either...
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline pTrader

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1961 on: Oct 14, 2015 at 12:58 PM »
well, rich people are not common either...

Both are common.  It is how you live with what you have.


Offline barrister

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1962 on: Oct 14, 2015 at 01:36 PM »
The reason why people misunderstand how God treats the poor is because of a misunderstanding of the beatitudes. 

Jesus said, "Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.  (Mt. 5:3; Luke 6:20)

The key to understanding is the Greek word "ptōchoi."  It literally means, "to crouch or cower like a beggar." 

I posted a discussion on sir Nelson's thread:

http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php/topic,170692.msg1983012.html#msg1983012

Mt. 5:3 and Luke 6:20 both used the word "ptōchoi," even if one said "poor in spirit" and the other simply said "poor."

http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php/topic,170692.msg1983553.html#msg1983553

Just because you are materially poor, it does not mean you automatically have a free card to blessedness.
« Last Edit: Oct 14, 2015 at 01:47 PM by barrister »

Offline tony

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1963 on: Oct 14, 2015 at 01:49 PM »
Quote
Just because you are materially poor, it does not mean you automatically have a free card to blessedness.

of course....
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline pTrader

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1964 on: Oct 14, 2015 at 02:08 PM »
^ be content with what you have :)

Offline Nelson de Leon

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1965 on: Oct 14, 2015 at 02:34 PM »
I also asked the same question Tony raised. Somebody told me (though not biblical), that the rich are there to bless the poor. Pointless daw kung lahat mayaman kasi wala ka daw pwedeng share-an ng blessings mo.

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1966 on: Oct 14, 2015 at 04:10 PM »
Is God really loving the poor? why did he make billions of them?

On the contrary, God never meant for man to be poor. That was the devil's schemes.

Abundance was part of Jesus' mission here on earth for us. John 10:10 says "The thief[Devil] does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I[Jesus] have come that they may have life [ETERNAL LIFE], and that they may have it more ABUNDANTLY[PROSPEROUS LIFE]".

And so this was part of the divine exchange Jesus has made in the cross for those who will believe. 2 Corinthians 8:9 says "For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that YOU through HIS POVERTY might become RICH."

Although God loves everyone[clearly in John 3:16], He does not respond to needs[and desperation] as He requires and responds to faith. I personally believe people are poor because of no faith, or wrong faith or lack of it. Hebrews 11:6 says "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."

The blessings and the favor from God depends as what Ephesians 3:20 says, "Now to Him who is ABLE to do EXCEEDINGLY ABUNDANTLY ABOVE ALL that we ASK or THINK, ACCORDING to the power that works in us, ..."

If so how come other nations or people are very rich even though unbelievers? Diligence and hardwork always pays off. Proverbs 14:23 says "In all labor there is profit, But idle chatter leads only to poverty."

So whats the difference between the prosperity from own work of hands and from the blessings & favor coming from God? Proverbs 10:22 says "The blessing of the Lord makes one rich, And He adds no sorrow with it."

Offline barrister

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1967 on: Oct 14, 2015 at 05:34 PM »
On the contrary, God never meant for man to be poor. That was the devil's schemes.

Abundance was part of Jesus' mission here on earth for us. John 10:10 says "The thief[Devil] does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I[Jesus] have come that they may have life [ETERNAL LIFE], and that they may have it more ABUNDANTLY[PROSPEROUS LIFE]".

And so this was part of the divine exchange Jesus has made in the cross for those who will believe. 2 Corinthians 8:9 says "For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that YOU through HIS POVERTY might become RICH."

Although God loves everyone[clearly in John 3:16], He does not respond to needs[and desperation] as He requires and responds to faith. I personally believe people are poor because of no faith, or wrong faith or lack of it. Hebrews 11:6 says "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."

The blessings and the favor from God depends as what Ephesians 3:20 says, "Now to Him who is ABLE to do EXCEEDINGLY ABUNDANTLY ABOVE ALL that we ASK or THINK, ACCORDING to the power that works in us, ..."

If so how come other nations or people are very rich even though unbelievers? Diligence and hardwork always pays off. Proverbs 14:23 says "In all labor there is profit, But idle chatter leads only to poverty."

So whats the difference between the prosperity from own work of hands and from the blessings & favor coming from God? Proverbs 10:22 says "The blessing of the Lord makes one rich, And He adds no sorrow with it."


 
The New Testament does not promise material abundance, it promises spiritual abundance.
 
In fact, Christ's followers were usually poor and suffering because the world hated them.   
 
18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20 Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. (John 15:18-20)
 
Yan ang dinala ng mga Amerikanong pastor sa Pilipinas --- The Prosperity Gospel.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology
 
Oral Roberts was probably the first to reap big-time financial success with this doctrine, which he used since the 1950s up to the time of his death.  This doctrine has been making televangelists rich since the 1960s.  Now, those preachers have gone international.
 
 
Prosperity Preachers and Financial Gain
By Josef Urban
“A Scriptural Examination of the Modern Doctrine of Financial Prosperity”
 
It is a very common thing within the church nowadays to hear a preacher making references to supposed promises in the Bible that promise believers to have financial and economic prosperity. Statements like, “God doesn’t want us to live in poverty” and “God promises to bless you economically if you honor Him” and so on, give the impression that Christians should believe for and seek material, financial, economic prosperity on this earth. Frequently the impression is given which ultimately makes people think, “God wants me to have more money”.
 
http://www.puregospeltruth.com/prosperity-preachers-and-financial-gain---does-god-want-you-to-be-rich.html
« Last Edit: Oct 14, 2015 at 05:50 PM by barrister »

Offline sirhc

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1968 on: Oct 14, 2015 at 05:53 PM »
I always thought it silly that God would meddle with petty things such as material wealth.

What about what the Old Testament says about material blessinga atty?
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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1969 on: Oct 14, 2015 at 06:00 PM »
Kung Old Testament, meron talaga:
 
3 You will be blessed in the city and blessed in the country.
 
4 The fruit of your womb will be blessed, and the crops of your land and the young of your livestock—the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
 
5 Your basket and your kneading trough will be blessed.
 
6 You will be blessed when you come in and blessed when you go out.
 
7 The Lord will grant that the enemies who rise up against you will be defeated before you. They will come at you from one direction but flee from you in seven.
 
8 The Lord will send a blessing on your barns and on everything you put your hand to. The Lord your God will bless you in the land he is giving you.
 
9 The Lord will establish you as his holy people, as he promised you on oath, if you keep the commands of the Lord your God and walk in obedience to him. 10 Then all the peoples on earth will see that you are called by the name of the Lord, and they will fear you. 11 The Lord will grant you abundant prosperity—in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your ground—in the land he swore to your ancestors to give you.
 
12 The Lord will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands. You will lend to many nations but will borrow from none. 13 The Lord will make you the head, not the tail. If you pay attention to the commands of the Lord your God that I give you this day and carefully follow them, you will always be at the top, never at the bottom. 14 Do not turn aside from any of the commands I give you today, to the right or to the left, following other gods and serving them. (Deut. 28:3-12)


The Jews were previously taught that material prosperity and abundance is a blessing from God.  But during His time on earth, Jesus gave the people a shockingly revolutionary new teaching --- Blessed are the poor. 
« Last Edit: Oct 14, 2015 at 06:08 PM by barrister »

Offline Nelson de Leon

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1970 on: Oct 14, 2015 at 06:11 PM »
That time kasi, ang ruler ng israelites is God. Siya din ang head of the state.

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1971 on: Oct 14, 2015 at 06:25 PM »
That is not beinv poor materially... It means being "poor in spirit"... God always bless those who do His will, whether it is spiritual blessings or material blessings... I cant see any relation that if you are Christian ay magiging mahirap ka.

Nangyari lang na halos lahat ng follower ni Jesus ay mahirap kasi sabi mismo ni Jesus mas madali pang makapasok ang isang camelsa butas ng karayom kesa sa mayaman na makapasok sa langit.

Kaya ayun halos lahat ng follower ni Jesus ay mahirap.

Pero kung susuriin natin, hindi material na kalagyan ang tinutukoy ni Jesus, kungdi ang kalagayan g puso at espirito ng tao. Madalas ang mga mayyaman they feel that they dont need God because they have everything, samantalang ang mga mahijirap, laging bukas ang kanilang puso sa anumang pag-asa kaligtasan na ibibigay sa kanila.
« Last Edit: Oct 14, 2015 at 06:30 PM by dpogs »
There is none righteous, no not one.

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1972 on: Oct 14, 2015 at 06:38 PM »
The New Testament does not promise material abundance, it promises spiritual abundance.
 
In fact, Christ's followers were usually poor and suffering because the world hated them.   
 
18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20 Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. (John 15:18-20)
 
Yan ang dinala ng mga Amerikanong pastor sa Pilipinas --- The Prosperity Gospel.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology
 
Oral Roberts was probably the first to reap big-time financial success with this doctrine, which he used since the 1950s up to the time of his death.  This doctrine has been making televangelists rich since the 1960s.  Now, those preachers have gone international.
 
 
Prosperity Preachers and Financial Gain
By Josef Urban
“A Scriptural Examination of the Modern Doctrine of Financial Prosperity”
 
It is a very common thing within the church nowadays to hear a preacher making references to supposed promises in the Bible that promise believers to have financial and economic prosperity. Statements like, “God doesn’t want us to live in poverty” and “God promises to bless you economically if you honor Him” and so on, give the impression that Christians should believe for and seek material, financial, economic prosperity on this earth. Frequently the impression is given which ultimately makes people think, “God wants me to have more money”.
 
http://www.puregospeltruth.com/prosperity-preachers-and-financial-gain---does-god-want-you-to-be-rich.html

Thanks Atty, I was really hoping someone would mention this so that I can explain further.

Because this is a good example where the mindset of the people has fallen under the stronghold and lies of the devil.   Although there are indeed many "prosperity gospel" preachers and teachers proliferating these days[sabi ko nga may fake kasi may genuine],  you cannot  remove the word abundance and prosperity in the bible especially as God's promise to His people.   

The devil manage to give the word "prosperity" and "abundance" a bad name that when you mention it, people automatically think of material gains just like you said.  And people believed that  followers of Jesus should be poor just like Jesus is.   

But there is nowhere in the bible that mentions Jesus is poor. Modest living, yes but not poor. How can He be poor that even  at birth He recieved expensive gifts. How can one be poor if  you can turn water to wine, multiply bread and fish, pay taxes by fishing, got money box from people's offering, got free provisions for a meeting hall and even a donkey to ride. And note that soldiers gambled for his clothes so they must be of value. He only became poor at the cross for our sake.

Out of context pa yata yung verse na ginamit mo dahil it speaks of world hating believer's but nothing to do with being poor.  Notice also, all my verses are from new testament so its still relevant right?

Are you poor? Are you being persecuted now? Don't think so, so do you consider yourself a follower of Jesus?

Consider what David says in Psalm 23, "The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want ...". In Jewish it connotes "I shall lack nothing".  This is what the abundance and prosperity that the gospel is coming from.

Poor is lackness of something [not necessarily material or financial]. In abundance or being prosperous means there are supplies for what you need.  Philippians 4:19 says "And my God shall supply ALL your need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus."

And of course sabi din nya in Matthew 6:33  "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and ALL these things shall be added to you."

So how can one be poor if God has clearly promised to supply ALL and ALL will be added to us? And since you are seems to be good at hebrews and greek, could you find what the word "ALL" means kung pang spiritual lang sya.
« Last Edit: Oct 14, 2015 at 06:47 PM by JT »

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1973 on: Oct 14, 2015 at 06:49 PM »
Take note the phrase "God shall supply ALL YOUR NEED"...

Ano ba ang pangangailangan "NEED" ng isang anak ng Diyos, food both physical and spiritual, clothing, and shelter. Other than these it is already a luxury.
There is none righteous, no not one.

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1974 on: Oct 14, 2015 at 07:44 PM »
Quote
On the contrary, God never meant for man to be poor. That was the devil's schemes.

so talaga palang maraming demonyo sa lupa..... >:D
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1975 on: Oct 14, 2015 at 07:46 PM »
 
Take note the phrase "God shall supply ALL YOUR NEED"...

Ano ba ang pangangailangan "NEED" ng isang anak ng Diyos, food both physical and spiritual, clothing, and shelter. Other than these it is already a luxury.

Tama.

Hindi na kailangang lumayo sa talata. Napakasimple niyan:


25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life?

28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. (Mt. 6:25-34)


Life, body, food, drink and clothing lang ang sinasabi diyan.  E di basic necessities lang pala.

"Do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink." --- Anong klaseng eat and drink? Food and drink that is sufficient to sustain life. Kasama ba ang Wagyu steak at Cognac brandy? Hindi.

"Or about your body, what you will wear." --- Anong klaseng clothes? Clothes sufficient to protect your body from the elements. Kasama ba ang Armani suit diyan? Hindi.

"But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well." --- Ano daw yung sinasabi ni Kristo na "all these things"?

Simple.  All these things Christ previously mentioned --- food, drink and clothing.

Ano pa nga ba, e di basic necessities lang.  All these things daw?  Oo nga, all these basic necessities daw.  Kulit... :D

Walang pangakong bahay sa Tagaytay Highlands; walang 75-inch 4K TV. Paanong naging abundance and prosperity yan?  :D
 
 
 
 
Mag-abuloy ka, kapatid.  Babalik sa yo yan.  Mas malaki bigay, mas malaki balik, siksik, liglig at umaapaw. 
 
Si pastor ang aapaw, hindi ikaw...  :D   
« Last Edit: Oct 14, 2015 at 08:23 PM by barrister »

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1976 on: Oct 14, 2015 at 08:23 PM »
Quote
Mag-abuloy ka, kapatid.  Babalik sa yo yan, siksik, liglig at umaapaw. 
 
Si pastor ang aapaw, hindi ikaw... 

ma katabi kaming simbahan o kapilya, ang lakas ng sound system,
sabi ng pastor, "pag hindi kayo nagbigay ng ikapu, ninanakawan nyo ang Diyos"

napaisip ako, nagbibgay ba ng official receipt ang Diyos?

me nakatrabaho ako sa abroad, taga nueva viscaya, merong isang farmer na
tila baga umaasenso, lumapit ang pastor at pinatuloy nya, ginawan nya ng maliit na
chapel at pinakain ang pamilya......kaso inabot ng malas, tinamaan ng matitinding bagyo,
so madal't  sabi, naubos ang kabuhayan, so kasabay ng paglaho ng yaman nya,
lumayas ang pastor, lumipat ng ibang bayan....
« Last Edit: Oct 14, 2015 at 08:24 PM by tony »
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1977 on: Oct 14, 2015 at 09:48 PM »
But the Bible never mentioned that if you're christian or believer you will be poor materially. Man become poor because of their wrong choices in life. If a Christian live a righteous life, how can he be poor? If he handle his money right, if hes honest in his job, if he found favor sa lahat ng kanyang neighbour, if he handle his business right, can he be poor? If God blesses those who are "masipag", how much more those "believers na masipag".

A prayer of a righteous man availeth much. If you pray, it will be given to you according to His grace.
There is none righteous, no not one.

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1978 on: Oct 14, 2015 at 10:10 PM »

But the Bible never mentioned that if you're christian or believer you will be poor materially.

I agree.


There is no promise of wealth, abundance and prosperity for Christians.  But that doesn't mean all Christians are supposed to be poor. 

It only means material prosperity is not guaranteed.

Christians can be rich, poor, or anywhere in between.  There is no mandatory requirement of material poverty.

Joseph of Arimathea is described by Mt. 27:57 as a rich man who was also a disciple of Jesus, yet Jesus never told him to give all of his wealth away to the poor.  Which only proves that a disciple of Christ is not required to live in poverty. 

Therefore, it is possible for a person to be both rich and a disciple of Christ at the same time.  More so for a middle-class guy who doesn't happen to be destitue.

However, to say that Jesus came so that Christians can have an abundant, prosperous life --- that just isn't true.  Prosperity theology is what that is.
« Last Edit: Oct 14, 2015 at 10:48 PM by barrister »

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #1979 on: Oct 15, 2015 at 12:22 AM »
Oh my God! This gives me a better understanding of Mt. 6:33. Kala ko talaga dati you will become extremely rich materially if you seek first the kingdom of God. Really a good thing na nadiscover ko tong threads (religion thread, holy trinity, etc) na to sa PDVD. My kudos to everyone for the really good conversation here.