Author Topic: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion  (Read 163377 times)

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Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #570 on: Oct 19, 2014 at 08:14 PM »
"Clearly you do not understand Evolution. It is both fact AND theory. The theory is on how species evolved. You should ratther say The Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection. The theory there is "by Natural Selection" not Evolution. It is like saying that gravity is a theory." Sir Leomarley (from religion thread).

Mmmmm.....there's a hint of condescension just a hint!You're correct i did make an assertion that "Evolution is the Atheist's creation theory! I should have specified it. So let me qualifiy my statement.

First you yourself made a bold and sweeping statement: Evolution is both theory and fact
In order for us to understand this statement first let’s define the 3 words. Evolution, Theory, Fact,

Evolution
This is the general term given by science to explain the presence of life form on earth. However, what is important and it should be emphasized that there mainly 3 types of evolutionary processes.

Evolution 1: It can mean that life forms at present are different from the life forms in past. So evolution as “change over time” can also refer to minor changes in the features of individual species. These changes takes place in a relatively short period of time. These can be observed and tested. So in this sense or context  “evolution” is a FACT!

Evolution 2: This is where it gets tricky: This type of evolution claims that all organism we see today are descended from a single common ancestor in the distant past! This is the theory of universal common descent. This theory paints a picture that life on earth as one great branching tree.

Evolution 3: This is even trickier: This type use the term evolution to refer to a cause or mechanism of change. This is the biological process that Darwin thought was the mechanism: Unguided Natural Selection! This mechanism according to its proponent had the power to produce fundamentally new life forms. Now this together with “universal common descent” forms the core of Darwinian Evolution. “Neo-Darwinian” evolution adds the knowledge of DNA and genetics to claim that “random mutations” in DNA provide the variations upon which “natural selection” acts in a completely unguided fashion to form ever complex and new forms of life forms!

“ I am a physician and been practicing medicine for almost 20 years now. I know a thing or two about DNA, genetics and mutations. Both in my practice, med school and reading of journals on diseases, mutations in the molecular levels has always a negative outcome like diseases, carcinoma, infection. Mutations in bacterias/viruses result in more virulent form of that bacteria/virus. There has never been in the history of medicine where bacteria mutated into another completely different bacteria.”
The first type of evolution called “micro-evolution”  I agree with as a fact since has been observed and tested. As I said if we are talking about small-scale changes in species in time, then this type of evolution is indeed a FACT!

However, the second type called “Universal common descent” and the third type “Unguided Natural Selection/Random Mutations. Random mutations have for the most part produce negative effects like diseases, and have not been showed to produce more complex organs much more produce an entirely new organism. Since these two types of Evolutionary mechanisms has not been observed and tested then it stands to reason that this is NOT a FACT!

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Offline leomarley

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #571 on: Oct 19, 2014 at 08:38 PM »
did you watch the video i posted on the other thread?

also, if there were any hints of condescension on my part, i apologize.
« Last Edit: Oct 19, 2014 at 08:39 PM by leomarley »

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #572 on: Oct 19, 2014 at 11:29 PM »
did you watch the video i posted on the other thread?

also, if there were any hints of condescension on my part, i apologize.

Yes i did! Nice concise video and i did see the resemblance between the guy and the fish!
And there was a "cute"  way to explain why there are no "transitional forms", However, it all boils down to what was the mechanism in place? Unguided natural selection acting on random mutations?

No worries there, i was just lightening the mood...
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Offline leomarley

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #573 on: Oct 20, 2014 at 12:06 AM »
that was a brief explanation. i think a better explanation is on Episode 2 of Cosmos: A Spacetime Odyssey.

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #574 on: Oct 20, 2014 at 02:03 PM »
To continue...on defining fact and theory


Evolutionist defined Theory as a “well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, and tested hypothesis”. Also a “comprehensive explanation of some aspect of nature that is supported by vast body evidence”. Thus by saying Theory of Evolution it now implies an idea that is both “well-substantiated and “supported by a vast body of evidence”. This now being used as the reason why it is both fact and theory!

The term “Theory” does not convey the degree of certainty of what is explained. All theories describe objects or events that are not directly observable. This is the main or core concept of theory. It describes aspect of nature that are beyond what we can observe. It also doesn’t necessarily imply that it is a “fact” or is well-supported by the evidence. A theory becomes true only if what it describes really exists and describes them accurately, otherwise it’s false.
 
The term “Fact” or more specifically “scientific fact” is defined as an observation in nature that has been repeatedly confirmed and therefore accepted as true. In other words it is the “actual” state of affairs in nature. It is also a “scientific observation” that has not been refuted or falsified.

Here are just some failures of the Neo-Darwinian evolution:
-Failure to provide detailed evolutionary explanations for the origin of complex biochemical features or origin of new functional biological information.
-Failure of the Fossil record to support Darwinian evolution.
-Failure of genetics and chemistry to explain origin of the Genetic Code

Therefore for a theory to be considered as true if should match the facts! In this regard evolution has failed to do so…

Thus to say that Evolution is a theory because it is “well-tested and well-supported” by evidence is redefining the meaning of the word “theory” to imply the validity and truth of the theory!

Having now the definition these two terms, lets apply it to the Theory of Evolution. By this I am referring to the main mechanism being used by the proponents as the driving force for life that of “unguided natural selection acting upon random mutation to produce complexity and new life forms.”

The main argument here is that random and unguided processes DO NOT build new complex biological features. Based on the above definition of Fact and Theory…..Evolution is neither!




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Offline xbase

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #575 on: Oct 20, 2014 at 04:48 PM »
bookmarked!

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #576 on: Oct 20, 2014 at 06:31 PM »


seems familiar?
Mmmm....let me test this.

Invent  Hypothesis: Unguided natural selection acting upon random mutations to produce complexity of life.

Make Observations: Small-scale changes in each species seen
                             Fossil records show well-formed life forms and no transitional forms
                            DNA mutations results in negative outcome
                            Origin of Genetic code not explained by genetics and Chemistry
Do all of them Fit?: NO!!!
Invent Another Hypothesis!
« Last Edit: Oct 20, 2014 at 07:59 PM by docelmo »
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Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #577 on: Oct 21, 2014 at 01:49 PM »
Now, let's test the other side of the argument

Invent  Hypothesis: Complexity of life through directed purposeful processes.

Make Observations: Small-scale changes in each species seen
                             Fossil records show well-formed life forms and no transitional forms
                             DNA mutations results in negative outcome
                             Origin of Genetic code not explained by genetics and Chemistry
Do all of them Fit?: YES!!!
                Theory: Intelligent Design
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Offline bumblebee

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #578 on: Oct 21, 2014 at 01:57 PM »
Do all of them Fit?: YES!!!
                Theory: Intelligent Design

Yeah, you can say that. But that intelligent design could be from another alien race, not necessarily God. You just assumed it cannot be other than God.

Science can't accept the intelligent design theory because it raises more questions than answers. This is similar to ancient humans believing that the rain is caused by the rain gods, simply because they don't understand the water cycle yet.
« Last Edit: Oct 21, 2014 at 02:03 PM by bumblebee »

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #579 on: Oct 21, 2014 at 02:51 PM »
Yeah, you can say that. But that intelligent design could be from another alien race, not necessarily God. You just assumed it cannot be other than God.

Science can't accept the intelligent design theory because it raises more questions than answers. This is similar to ancient humans believing that the rain is caused by the rain gods, simply because they don't understand the water cycle yet.

Sir, It is you who assumed just because there's design....... "it cannot other than God".
You're correct it could an alien race ( i like watching Ancient Aliens on History btw!), Beings from other dimensions, or God! Take your pick!
Bottom line is more and more scientific studies on biology, astronomy, chemistry.....points to a intelligent rather
unintelligent material cause.
"Science can't accept ID".....Wow! last time i checked Science is an unbiased observer of nature! It must be the scientists who can't accept ID. That when scientists are doing experiments to recreate the origin of life, they manipulate the environment to for testing.......what they're doing then is....Intelligent Design!
« Last Edit: Oct 21, 2014 at 02:52 PM by docelmo »
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Offline bumblebee

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #580 on: Oct 21, 2014 at 02:58 PM »
Sir, It is you who assumed just because there's design....... "it cannot other than God".

What is it then?

Quote
You're correct it could an alien race ( i like watching Ancient Aliens on History btw!), Beings from other dimensions, or God! Take your pick!
Bottom line is more and more scientific studies on biology, astronomy, chemistry.....points to a intelligent rather
unintelligent material cause.

Are you saying that the universe was planned/created so that we can exist?

Quote
"Science can't accept ID".....Wow! last time i checked Science is an unbiased observer of nature! It must be the scientists who can't accept ID. That when scientists are doing experiments to recreate the origin of life, they manipulate the environment to for testing.......what they're doing then is....Intelligent Design!

It is unbiased. But the ID theory is just lame. Whenever you encounter something you can't understand, you can invoke ID by default. That's not how it works.
« Last Edit: Oct 21, 2014 at 03:02 PM by bumblebee »

Offline Tempter

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #581 on: Oct 21, 2014 at 03:06 PM »
So now the question is:

Who designed the Designer??? ;D

That will be another Creation or Evolution question hehe!!!

Did the Designer evolved from nothing? ;D Or he or she was designed by another Designer maybe and Architect? But then who designed the Architect? ;D
« Last Edit: Oct 21, 2014 at 03:07 PM by Tempter »
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #582 on: Oct 21, 2014 at 03:37 PM »
You're correct it could an alien race ( i like watching Ancient Aliens on History btw!)...

And where did the alien race come from?  ;)
« Last Edit: Oct 21, 2014 at 03:37 PM by barrister »

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #583 on: Oct 21, 2014 at 03:42 PM »
So now the question is:

Who designed the Designer??? ;D

That will be another Creation or Evolution question hehe!!!

Did the Designer evolved from nothing? ;D Or he or she was designed by another Designer maybe and Architect? But then who designed the Architect? ;D

Easy. 

The creator is eternal.  He has no beginning and will have no end.

Therefore, He was not "designed," and He did not "evolve." 
« Last Edit: Oct 21, 2014 at 03:43 PM by barrister »

Offline Tempter

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #584 on: Oct 21, 2014 at 03:47 PM »
Easy. 

The creator is eternal.  He has no beginning and will have no end.

Therefore, He was not "designed," and He did not "evolve." 

Easy... cop out??? ;D
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #585 on: Oct 21, 2014 at 03:52 PM »
Intelligent design or (ID) is the theory that the natural world shows signs of having been designed by a purposeful, intelligent cause. Another is that some features of living things are better explained by an intelligent cause than by unguided processes. It is NOT used to prove that God is that designer! We are talking theory here and not faith or religion. Let's not get confused...

This universe was planned? your guess is a good a mine, you can ask the "designer" when you see him/her/it. However the presence of universal laws, math, physics are evidence of design in nature.

"ID theory is lame" On the contrary sir, ID is in fact a much better explanation of what is observed in nature than an unintelligent material cause producing the complexity of life. It is not a theory by default instead it's a positive inference. The "explanatory filter" is one such tool identify cause from design.

Who designed the designer? If by "designer" you mean the biblical God, that's not what we are discussing here.

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Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #586 on: Oct 21, 2014 at 04:02 PM »
And where did the alien race come from?  ;)
Oh, from a galaxy far far away!

Hehehe, i just noticed your avatar is an alien!
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Offline bumblebee

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #587 on: Oct 21, 2014 at 04:14 PM »
Intelligent design or (ID) is the theory that the natural world shows signs of having been designed by a purposeful, intelligent cause. Another is that some features of living things are better explained by an intelligent cause than by unguided processes. It is NOT used to prove that God is that designer! We are talking theory here and not faith or religion. Let's not get confused...

An what is the purpose of this ID? Life?

Offline Tempter

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #588 on: Oct 21, 2014 at 04:18 PM »
Intelligent design or (ID) is the theory that the natural world shows signs of having been designed by a purposeful, intelligent cause. Another is that some features of living things are better explained by an intelligent cause than by unguided processes. It is NOT used to prove that God is that designer! We are talking theory here and not faith or religion. Let's not get confused...

This universe was planned? your guess is a good a mine, you can ask the "designer" when you see him/her/it. However the presence of universal laws, math, physics are evidence of design in nature.

"ID theory is lame" On the contrary sir, ID is in fact a much better explanation of what is observed in nature than an unintelligent material cause producing the complexity of life. It is not a theory by default instead it's a positive inference. The "explanatory filter" is one such tool identify cause from design.

Who designed the designer? If by "designer" you mean the biblical God, that's not what we are discussing here.



Well, I did not mention anything about Biblical things so it's safe to assume I am not referring to anything of that sort. Just asking who designed the designer (whoever or whatever you wanna call it...)? There just got to be something or nothing that started it all... or do you sincerely believe that Intelligent Being just pfffttt!!! there goes COCO CRUNCH out of the blue... ;D
« Last Edit: Oct 21, 2014 at 04:19 PM by Tempter »
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #589 on: Oct 21, 2014 at 04:33 PM »
Easy... cop out??? ;D

 :D   No, that's not a cop-out.
 
Notice that the question asks, who designed the designer. 
 
Therefore, the premise is that a designer exists.  If the question presumes that the designer exists, then the question is from a religious point of view, which will in turn require an answer from a religious point of view.

What is the answer from a religious point of view?  That the creator has no beginning.
 
Akala mo kasi, walang answer sa bible ang tanong na yon.  Ang hindi mo alam, simpleng simple pala ang sagot doon.  ;) 
« Last Edit: Oct 21, 2014 at 06:49 PM by barrister »

Offline Tempter

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #590 on: Oct 21, 2014 at 04:43 PM »

 :D   No, that's not a cop-out.
 
Notice that the question asks, who designed the designer. 
 
Therefore, the premise is that a designer exists.  If the question presumes that the designer exists, then the question is from a religious point of view, which will in turn require an answer from a religious point of view.

What is the answer from a religious point of view?  That the creator has no beginning.
 
Akala mo kasi, walang answer sa bible ang tanong na yon.  Ang hindi mo alam, simpeng simple pala ang sagot doon.  ;) 

Ahhh baka ang tinutukoy diyan e yung THE CUBE...

In the beginning, there was the CUBE, we know not where it came from... ;D
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #591 on: Oct 21, 2014 at 06:29 PM »
Well, I did not mention anything about Biblical things so it's safe to assume I am not referring to anything of that sort. Just asking who designed the designer (whoever or whatever you wanna call it...)? There just got to be something or nothing that started it all... or do you sincerely believe that Intelligent Being just pfffttt!!! there goes COCO CRUNCH out of the blue... ;D

As I said earlier ID is a theory or an attempt to explain observation in nature on the presence of an apparent design. It postulates the presence of design is caused by a directed, purposeful , intelligent cause. However, It does not say that this cause is God.

But since insist on asking......I believe (I am now talking as a believer) this designer is God!
God is uncreated, uncaused, eternal....why do I say that He said so!
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Offline Quitacet

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #592 on: Oct 21, 2014 at 06:32 PM »
Now, let's test the other side of the argument

Invent  Hypothesis: Complexity of life through directed purposeful processes.

Make Observations: Small-scale changes in each species seen
                             Fossil records show well-formed life forms and no transitional forms
                             DNA mutations results in negative outcome
                             Origin of Genetic code not explained by genetics and Chemistry
Do all of them Fit?: YES!!!
                Theory: Intelligent Design

So do you believe that chickens and rabbits and dinosaurs and cats and cows coexisted during the Triassic period?

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #593 on: Oct 21, 2014 at 06:43 PM »
Ahhh baka ang tinutukoy diyan e yung THE CUBE...

In the beginning, there was the CUBE, we know not where it came from... ;D

Hindi the cube yon.

Ang the cube, "we know not where it came from." 

Ang creator, we know that it did not come from anything.  E di hindi nga the cube...  :D   
« Last Edit: Oct 21, 2014 at 06:45 PM by barrister »

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #594 on: Oct 21, 2014 at 07:02 PM »
An what is the purpose of this ID? Life?

If you're talking about the theory, then the purpose is to offer another point of view on the apparent design in nature and the complexity of life. As opposed to evolution where the driving force is undirected natural selection acting upon random mutations to produce complexity and design.

If you're talking about the mechanism involved, then it has been observed designed patterns ultimately produces a purpose or function.
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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #595 on: Oct 21, 2014 at 07:04 PM »
If you're talking about the theory, then the purpose is to offer another point of view on the apparent design in nature and the complexity of life. As opposed to evolution where the driving force is undirected natural selection acting upon random mutations to produce complexity and design.

If you're talking about the mechanism involved, then it has been observed designed patterns ultimately produces a purpose or function.

I mean what is the purpose of the ID? It is a design for what? Ano yung goal ng design?
« Last Edit: Oct 21, 2014 at 07:10 PM by bumblebee »

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #596 on: Oct 21, 2014 at 09:21 PM »
In general "design" is closely related to purpose or function. In other words when you make something it is for a particular "function or purpose". For example when you make a car, house, chair, table.....each has it's own purpose or function.

In particular the purpose of design in ID is to make ever complex parts of life forms with clear function for survival by way of an intelligent, directed, purposeful cause. For example The heart, lungs, eyes, wings......each has it's own purpose or function.

Mmmm.....I just realized that in both cases....you need an intelligent designer!
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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #597 on: Oct 21, 2014 at 09:26 PM »
So do you believe that chickens and rabbits and dinosaurs and cats and cows coexisted during the Triassic period?

Huh? What gave you that idea?
Of course not, the fossil records does not support that.
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Offline robot.sonic

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Re: Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #598 on: Oct 21, 2014 at 09:38 PM »
Easy. 

The creator is eternal.  He has no beginning and will have no end.

Therefore, He was not "designed," and He did not "evolve."

Ganyan ang definition ko ng God. Energy. Cannot be created nor destroyed.

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #599 on: Oct 22, 2014 at 09:56 AM »
In general "design" is closely related to purpose or function. In other words when you make something it is for a particular "function or purpose". For example when you make a car, house, chair, table.....each has it's own purpose or function.

In particular the purpose of design in ID is to make ever complex parts of life forms with clear function for survival by way of an intelligent, directed, purposeful cause. For example The heart, lungs, eyes, wings......each has it's own purpose or function.

Mmmm.....I just realized that in both cases....you need an intelligent designer!

The universe will go on even without life. If this is its purpose, then it's not so intelligent, does it?