Author Topic: DSD, what sould we know?  (Read 13482 times)

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Offline timber715

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DSD, what sould we know?
« on: Jan 23, 2013 at 03:32 PM »
I have been reading a lot about digital audio and tried my first dsd file today...  :o pleasantly good! Unfortunately my dac can only support 192k so it had to be down sampled by Jriver.
I have searched the net and found only a very few dacs that still support this. The only one I am aware that is sold locally is the DCS dac which easily cost more than my car....
The good thing is that there are still very limited number of sources to acquire this type of music. Good bec we know it is still not mainstream, but it will come.
DSD is suppose to be as good as analogue..? yes?

Offline Stagea

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #1 on: Jan 23, 2013 at 03:56 PM »
DSD is suppose to be as good as analogue..? yes?

That depends on which analogue, and how you're comparing them. Live SR is also often analogue, afterall.

Both PDM and PCM formats can be really good. Since your DAC is PCM-native, I suggest trying 24/192 material (or downsampling higher PCM formats to 24/192).


Offline timber715

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #2 on: Jan 23, 2013 at 09:29 PM »
That depends on which analogue, and how you're comparing them. Live SR is also often analogue, afterall.

Both PDM and PCM formats can be really good. Since your DAC is PCM-native, I suggest trying 24/192 material (or downsampling higher PCM formats to 24/192).


Live SR is it live stream radio? Not familiar with the abbreviation....
Yes analogue it is, but what I meant is analogue coming from vinyl.... Of course it can come from a terrible turntable too, but.....
Yes 24/192 is indeed a good format as it is, but my interest really lies in dsd....
I read in an article that the signal dsd produces is already equal to analogue, hence the interest... I believe that is the direction of digital audio, so why not start early.
If you ask me if I can distinguish a 96k against a 192k I will tell you, i probably could not... Some people want sports cars, I don't mind a simple one and some would be very happy with out of the box components to play music.... Well I don't. I guess its a matter of preference.
Would appreciate info on dsd....

Offline Nelson de Leon

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #3 on: Jan 23, 2013 at 10:26 PM »
I have been reading a lot about digital audio and tried my first dsd file today...  :o pleasantly good! Unfortunately my dac can only support 192k so it had to be down sampled by Jriver.
I have searched the net and found only a very few dacs that still support this. The only one I am aware that is sold locally is the DCS dac which easily cost more than my car....
The good thing is that there are still very limited number of sources to acquire this type of music. Good bec we know it is still not mainstream, but it will come.
DSD is suppose to be as good as analogue..? yes?

May alam akong USB DAC na 32/384 native resolution.  ;)

Offline timber715

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #4 on: Jan 23, 2013 at 10:30 PM »
May alam akong USB DAC na 32/384 native resolution.  ;)
is the 01 32/384 Nelson?

Offline Nelson de Leon

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #5 on: Jan 23, 2013 at 10:41 PM »
is the 01 32/384 Nelson?

Yes master timber.  ;D the new 01.  ;)

Offline timber715

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #6 on: Jan 23, 2013 at 10:52 PM »
Yes master timber.  ;D the new 01.  ;)
I was searching the web brader, couldn't find the spec... been basing the dac list from here  http://www.audiostream.com/content/dsd-ready-dacs-short-list

is this the previous model Nelson of the 01? http://www.musiland.com.cn/index.php/Product/show/id/140

Offline Nelson de Leon

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #7 on: Jan 23, 2013 at 11:08 PM »

Offline timber715

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #8 on: Jan 23, 2013 at 11:12 PM »
Eto master wood maker timber:

http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php/topic,159512.msg1612285.html#msg1612285
Thanks Nelson... would love to hear the 01 sometime. Not that I would need another dac at this time of course.

Offline joko11

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #9 on: Jan 23, 2013 at 11:46 PM »
ayun may thread na.it wont be long were playing studio quality sound thru ipod ;D .... pang super l33t people kasi tong mga ganitong format.
10 years from now perhaps
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Offline Stagea

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #10 on: Jan 23, 2013 at 11:49 PM »
Live SR is it live stream radio? Not familiar with the abbreviation....
SR is Sound Reinforcement sir, like those used in concerts.

I read in an article that the signal dsd produces is already equal to analogue, hence the interest... I believe that is the direction of digital audio, so why not start early.
Would appreciate info on dsd....

DSD is direct stream digital, which is a PDM (pulse density modulation) format. SACDs have been using it for 14 years now. It's often either in DSD64fs (SACD format) or DSD128fs (double-rate studio format).

Both DSD and 24-bit LPCM are adequate formats as they exceed the dynamic range that's available in the far majority of recording and playback systems (120dB and 144dB respectively). Transfers to these formats need very little to no compression, which isn't true for Vinyl (maxing out at around 70dB). That being said, the majority of high res digital material is still highly compressed because compression sells (sad but true).

The trend nowadays is to record and manipulate the data in DXD (which is a PCM format), as it offers lesser losses. Eventual distribution can be converted to DSD (a PDM format) or downsampled to a lower LPCM format.

The greatest appeal of DSD is the straightforward conversion to analogue. I believe that DXD and higher PCM formats would eventually displace it however, because of processing ease and sheer resolution.
« Last Edit: Jan 23, 2013 at 11:51 PM by Stagea »

Offline timber715

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #11 on: Jan 23, 2013 at 11:53 PM »
ayun may thread na.it wont be long were playing studio quality sound thru ipod ;D .... pang super l33t people kasi tong mga ganitong format.
10 years from now perhaps
Maybe 5 years, though music providers are not yet moving, the electronic industry is.... Won't be long when the market dictates dsd.
Maybe its too early for me to speculate, but this just might make records.......... Obsolete.













Or maybe more valued!

Offline timber715

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #12 on: Jan 23, 2013 at 11:59 PM »
SR is Sound Reinforcement sir, like those used in concerts.

DSD is direct stream digital, which is a PDM (pulse density modulation) format. SACDs have been using it for 14 years now. It's often either in DSD64fs (SACD format) or DSD128fs (double-rate studio format).

Both DSD and 24-bit LPCM are adequate formats as they exceed the dynamic range that's available in the far majority of recording and playback systems (120dB and 144dB respectively). Transfers to these formats need very little to no compression, which isn't true for Vinyl (maxing out at around 70dB). That being said, the majority of high res digital material is still highly compressed because compression sells (sad but true).

The trend nowadays is to record and manipulate the data in DXD (which is a PCM format), as it offers lesser losses. Eventual distribution can be converted to DSD (a PDM format) or downsampled to a lower LPCM format.

The greatest appeal of DSD is the straightforward conversion to analogue. I believe that DXD and higher PCM formats would eventually displace it however, because of processing ease and sheer resolution.
Thanks, that is also what have read from searching.
Dxd is the recording format right?
Unfortunately, the previous master flies were recorded differently data can gathered can only be as much. But even though, it should still be better than redbook format.
The next obstacle would be file size, dang it seems that there is no way to buy them in solid form anymore but as files downloaded only. Maybe when we buy an album in the future, it would come in a locked usb stick....

Offline Stagea

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #13 on: Jan 24, 2013 at 12:06 AM »
ayun may thread na.it wont be long were playing studio quality sound thru ipod ;D .... pang super l33t people kasi tong mga ganitong format.

Why wait for Apple when it's already around?  There are high res portable players like the iRiver AK100 and the Colorfly C4 Pro.
« Last Edit: Jan 24, 2013 at 12:18 AM by Stagea »

Offline Stagea

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #14 on: Jan 24, 2013 at 12:18 AM »
Thanks, that is also what have read from searching.
Dxd is the recording format right?
Unfortunately, the previous master flies were recorded differently data can gathered can only be as much. But even though, it should still be better than redbook format.

DXD is intended to be a recording format, but some studios do sell DXD material for a slightly hefty price. Lindberg Lyd used to, for example (I think they stopped though). Most consumer gear don't support this format however, due to SPDIF's limitations.

The next obstacle would be file size, dang it seems that there is no way to buy them in solid form anymore but as files downloaded only. Maybe when we buy an album in the future, it would come in a locked usb stick....

Internet distribution is just far more convenient, imo. Both DVD-A and SACD flopped in store shelves because of the small market. I don't think they're ready to do that again.
« Last Edit: Jan 24, 2013 at 12:24 AM by Stagea »

Offline joko11

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #15 on: Jan 24, 2013 at 01:29 AM »
Why wait for Apple when it's already around?  There are high res portable players like the iRiver AK100 and the Colorfly C4 Pro.
kasi master iv's pag umabot sa ipod level hindi na problema ang source kaya wait pako :)
5, 10 years from now ok lang im only 23 lang naman eh  ;D
sorry ot
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Offline sientobente

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #16 on: Jan 24, 2013 at 02:05 AM »
are dsd files as large as dxd files? was amazed by don master nelson's dxd collection where a file goes as large as 2GB each.

Offline timber715

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #17 on: Jan 24, 2013 at 02:15 AM »
are dsd files as large as dxd files? was amazed by don master nelson's dxd collection where a file goes as large as 2GB each.
Not sure about dxd file size but dsd file size for a 5.6mhz dsd song (not album) can use a tad more than half a gig... You can download a test song here... http://shop.dsdfile.com/

Offline Stagea

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #18 on: Jan 24, 2013 at 02:21 AM »
are dsd files as large as dxd files? was amazed by don master nelson's dxd collection where a file goes as large as 2GB each.

No, they're not. DSD ranges from 6 to 34Mbps depending on the channel format and sample rate. DXD ranges from 17 to 74Mbps depending on the channel format and resolution. In the most common (lowest) form, DXD is about 3x the size of DSD.
« Last Edit: Jan 24, 2013 at 02:23 AM by Stagea »

Offline sientobente

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #19 on: Jan 24, 2013 at 02:33 AM »
wow thanks for the info master timber and master ivan. these are giganormous files but upon auditioning these from don master nelson's place, it's looks worth it.

Offline Stagea

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #20 on: Jan 24, 2013 at 03:31 AM »
wow thanks for the info master timber and master ivan. these are giganormous files but upon auditioning these from don master nelson's place, it's looks worth it.

Sinewave output signal from a Redbook source:


Sinewave output signal from a 24/192 source:


Both are approximations, but High Res is a lot closer to correct.
« Last Edit: Jan 24, 2013 at 03:32 AM by Stagea »

Offline Nelson de Leon

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #21 on: Jan 24, 2013 at 11:45 PM »
Thanks Nelson... would love to hear the 01 sometime. Not that I would need another dac at this time of course.

Of course!!!

Offline Billabong

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #22 on: Jan 24, 2013 at 11:56 PM »
wow thanks for the info master timber and master ivan. these are giganormous files but upon auditioning these from don master nelson's place, it's looks worth it.

Ibang level ang tunog ng DXD! ;)

Check this out: http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html. May free samples ng hi-res audio. May DXD, DSD..etc. Enjoy! 8)

Offline timber715

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #23 on: Jan 25, 2013 at 12:47 AM »
eto yung sine wave that got me interested in dsd....

Offline joko11

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #24 on: Jan 25, 2013 at 01:51 AM »
eto yung sine wave that got me interested in dsd....

putol.... di nilagay dxd ;D
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Offline Stagea

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #25 on: Jan 25, 2013 at 03:48 AM »
putol.... di nilagay dxd ;D

There are Extended Precision (80-bit) and Double Precision (64-bit) FP digital audio formats, which are mostly used to prevent round-off noise/errors during processing. The theoretical capacity for resolution and dynamics of these are well beyond any current component. Data rates can reach over 1.3Gbps at high sampling rates. This kind of raw form is the best digital format at the moment; though most of the few studios that do work in this resolution eventually downconvert to 24 bit or 32 bit integer for compatibility and portability.

It's the same way how some Blurays are shot and mastered in 8K or 4K, before being downconverted to 2K for distribution.
« Last Edit: Jan 25, 2013 at 03:54 AM by Stagea »

Offline timber715

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #26 on: Jan 25, 2013 at 12:27 PM »
Is it true that a dsd capable dac should play dsd capable file and not convert it to pcm? Dsd should sound much different from pcm since it reads the file in bits unlike pcm which reads the file in strings of bits.... Hence the dsd capability?

Offline sientobente

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #27 on: Jan 25, 2013 at 01:41 PM »
Ibang level ang tunog ng DXD! ;)

Check this out: http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html. May free samples ng hi-res audio. May DXD, DSD..etc. Enjoy! 8)

great link master paul! got the first dxd file available, excited to try this at home. baka mapa-upgrade ako ng 24BIT/352.8kHz DAC nito ah   ;)

Offline Nelson de Leon

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #28 on: Jan 25, 2013 at 05:03 PM »
great link master paul! got the first dxd file available, excited to try this at home. baka mapa-upgrade ako ng 24BIT/352.8kHz DAC nito ah   ;)

Or yun 32bit native na new 01.

Offline Stagea

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #29 on: Jan 25, 2013 at 06:00 PM »
Is it true that a dsd capable dac should play dsd capable file and not convert it to pcm? Dsd should sound much different from pcm since it reads the file in bits unlike pcm which reads the file in strings of bits.... Hence the dsd capability?

A true DSD-capable DAC will handle the data stream as-is. Conversion to PCM is only done by components that cannot handle PDM natively.