Author Topic: DSD, what sould we know?  (Read 13486 times)

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Offline timber715

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #30 on: Jan 26, 2013 at 12:50 AM »
A true DSD-capable DAC will handle the data stream as-is. Conversion to PCM is only done by components that cannot handle PDM natively.
so we're on the same page... next, no matter how high the bit and sample rate capable a dac has, as long as it isn't dsd capable that it will not play dsd unless it is converted to pcm... right?

Online Stagea

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #31 on: Jan 26, 2013 at 01:49 AM »
so we're on the same page... next, no matter how high the bit and sample rate capable a dac has, as long as it isn't dsd capable that it will not play dsd unless it is converted to pcm... right?

You're absolutely correct.

The higher the PCM resolution however, the lesser the conversion loss. 24/352.8 and 24/176.4 are the preferred formats for high quality DSD to LPCM conversion (though 88.2 is more frequently used due to compatibility reasons). The difference between native DSD and high quality conversions is supposedly so little that most people could not tell them apart.
« Last Edit: Jan 26, 2013 at 02:03 AM by Stagea »

Offline timber715

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #32 on: Jan 26, 2013 at 01:57 AM »
You're absolutely correct.

The higher the PCM resolution however, the lesser the conversion loss. 24/352.8 and 24/176.4 are the preferred formats for high quality DSD to LPCM conversion (though 88.2 is more frequently used due to compatibility reasons).
thank you...
however dxd is totally different and will run at 384khz without conversions... I think.... but that belongs to another thread.
reading some more blogs, it is quite different that dsd uses 2.8mhz which is about 8 times that of 384khz...
fascinating stuff...



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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #33 on: Jan 26, 2013 at 02:30 AM »
thank you...
however dxd is totally different and will run at 384khz without conversions... I think.... but that belongs to another thread.
reading some more blogs, it is quite different that dsd uses 2.8mhz which is about 8 times that of 384khz...
fascinating stuff...
You're welcome. :)

Most DSD materials nowadays are actually mastered in FP or PCM, stored in PCM, then converted to DSD. Mastering in DSD is getting less and less popular as most newer studio components work better with PCM (since data is easier to manipulate in this form).

DXD is more frequently 352.8kHz, though it can also be 384kHz. Sampling rate is not directly comparable between PCM and DSD as 1 sample in DSD does not mean much on its own (it's 1 bit). It's the cummulative effects of successive bits in the bitstream that allows DSD to work. In comparison, a single data point in LPCM is simply a single sample.

In terms of outright resolution and dynamic range, DSD clearly loses to high res PCM. DSD has an advantage when it comes to outright bandwidth and jitter resistance, however.

There is actually a cross-breed format between DSD and LPCM that is referred to in studios either as "DSD Pure" or "PCM Narrow." This is 8-bit depth with 64fs or 128fs DSD sampling. This is like DSD with better resolution, dynamic range and editability.

There's also a new breed of DSD in 256fs (aka "DSD256"), which samples at 11.3MHz.

Why don't we all just use IEEE FP Audio and do the transfers ourselves. ;D
« Last Edit: Jan 26, 2013 at 02:38 AM by Stagea »

Offline timber715

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #34 on: Jan 26, 2013 at 03:22 AM »
You're welcome. :)

Most DSD materials nowadays are actually mastered in FP or PCM, stored in PCM, then converted to DSD. Mastering in DSD is getting less and less popular as most newer studio components work better with PCM (since data is easier to manipulate in this form).

DXD is more frequently 352.8kHz, though it can also be 384kHz. Sampling rate is not directly comparable between PCM and DSD as 1 sample in DSD does not mean much on its own (it's 1 bit). It's the cummulative effects of successive bits in the bitstream that allows DSD to work. In comparison, a single data point in LPCM is simply a single sample.

In terms of outright resolution and dynamic range, DSD clearly loses to high res PCM. DSD has an advantage when it comes to outright bandwidth and jitter resistance, however.

There is actually a cross-breed format that is referred to in studios either as "DSD Pure" or "PCM Narrow." This is 8-bit with 64fs or 128fs.

There's also a new breed of DSD in 256fs (aka "DSD256"), which samples at 11.3MHz.

Why don't we all just use IEEE FP Audio and do the transfers ourselves. ;D
you might be correct with most dsd materials originating from mastered pcm but that is not always the case too. Most studio components are pcm native might also hold ground but not bec they sound better but because they have been around longer as dsd is quite young compared to pcm and easier to manipulate as you stated. and with the flop of sacd (due to high cost of gear), studios stayed with pcm.
dynamic range of dsd I have read goes around 100,000khz which can burn tweeters but are often controlled by rolloff filters to about 50,000khz, so I really don't think it loses on that.
we don't need to talk about IEEE floating point as it isn't nec. though you can if you wish to do it yourself (no need to be overly technical).
there are so much testament all over the net that dsd sounds much better than pcm, the mere fact that highend brandnames are moving towards dsd would indicate that. would you think that brands like dcs would invest on dsd when pcm sounds better?
though I am aware that it will proliferate in the next year or two....
« Last Edit: Jan 26, 2013 at 04:24 AM by timber715 »

Offline timber715

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #36 on: Jan 26, 2013 at 05:27 AM »
here's a nice article... http://www.audiostream.com/content/dsd-v-pcm-file-comparison-16441-2496-24192-64x-dsd-128x-dsd

DSD's numerical accuracy is behind high res PCM (unless you go for 128fs or 256fs variants), especially as you go up the frequency range. DSD's HF region is also populated with quantization noise because of its operational nature. Here's a plotted waveform from a DSD device (PCM was posted previously):


The biggest reason why DSD can be superior to PCM is because most high res ADCs and DACs run delta-sigma modulation. Running DSD natively enables us to bypass some lossy steps in the process from the studio to the living room.



To get this advantage, one has to run DSD material that stayed in the DSD format from start to end. Most DSD material nowadays already went through the same conversions in the studio, however.

Another item to factor in is the effect of DSD's largely "inaudible" HF noise to the listener. Some people claim that this can enhance the experience, as the brain works differently while it tries to mask the noise (it may also increase the apparent "air" around instruments).
« Last Edit: Jan 26, 2013 at 05:59 AM by Stagea »

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #37 on: Jan 26, 2013 at 08:42 AM »
I'd like to add that systems that sound best with high res sources (whether in PCM or PDM) tend to sound harsh or uninviting with standard CDs. A smooth, relaxed and/or forgiving system may not benefit as much.

CDs tend to sound "best" with a system that is not as resolving (because the rough output waveform needs smoothing to sound natural). These systems give a pleasant but vague projection of the recorded performance.

High Res sources sound wonderful in revealing systems, as there is little need for waveform smoothing. Details pop out, images get fixed in a stable space, and proper focus is achieved when the system's output follow the information-rich input signal.
« Last Edit: Jan 26, 2013 at 08:59 AM by Stagea »

Offline JoeyGS

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #38 on: Jan 26, 2013 at 01:06 PM »
You got it right..... The element of matching/synergy!



I'd like to add that systems that sound best with high res sources (whether in PCM or PDM) tend to sound harsh or uninviting with standard CDs. A smooth, relaxed and/or forgiving system may not benefit as much.

CDs tend to sound "best" with a system that is not as resolving (because the rough output waveform needs smoothing to sound natural). These systems give a pleasant but vague projection of the recorded performance.

High Res sources sound wonderful in revealing systems, as there is little need for waveform smoothing. Details pop out, images get fixed in a stable space, and proper focus is achieved when the system's output follow the information-rich input signal.


Offline timber715

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #39 on: Jan 26, 2013 at 01:30 PM »
basic naman yan braders, synergy is important in any system to sound good. medyo pointless to play high res audio in a low res system kasi... It just wouldn't sound right.

Offline gutchy

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #40 on: Mar 29, 2013 at 11:38 AM »
A new DAC capable of playing DSD natively..  and using one of my fav DAC chip SABRE ES9018..
price is USD1K or RMB6.2k here in Shenzhen .. ipon mode nako para makabili nito... >:D

http://www.matrix-digi.com/en/products/49/index.html

Offline timber715

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #41 on: Mar 29, 2013 at 05:40 PM »
You gotta give it to the chinese to come out with a cnc'ed body at those prices... Very nice looking dac, let us know how it sounds once you get the chance.

Offline [email protected]

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2013 at 12:45 AM »
San nakaka download ng dsd files?

Thanks.
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Offline timber715

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2013 at 12:48 AM »
Dsdfile.com, blue coast records, 2L and several others online, just google dsd...

Offline [email protected]

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2013 at 12:50 AM »
wala bang may libre or testing man lang muna? hahaha
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013 at 12:55 AM by jhameeh »
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Offline timber715

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #45 on: May 16, 2013 at 12:55 AM »
If you have a dac with dsd capability you can try downloading a sample from dsdfile.com.  Meron sila Opus3 for testing. One for dsd64 and the other for dsd128...

Offline [email protected]

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2013 at 01:04 AM »
Yap, my DAC exasound e20 is capable of playing DSD 2.82MHz, DSD 5.64MHz (DSD 128 Fs) and DSD 11.28MHz (DSD 256 Fs) without conversion to PCM.

May bayad yung opus3 sampler nila   :(
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Offline timber715

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2013 at 01:07 AM »
Free yan brader... Congrats on the exa20. Let us know if dsd knocks you off your feet ha?

Offline [email protected]

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #48 on: May 16, 2013 at 01:12 AM »
Free yan brader... Congrats on the exa20. Let us know if dsd knocks you off your feet ha?

Thank you brader, waiting pa ako sa speaker ko...pero yung dac ko dumating na.
Naka download na ako ng isang sampler. thanks..

dsf at dff lang ba ang extension ng dsd? pwede rin ba syang maging flac?

« Last Edit: May 16, 2013 at 01:36 AM by jhameeh »
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Offline timber715

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #49 on: May 16, 2013 at 01:39 AM »
Thank you brader, waiting pa ako sa speaker ko...pero yung dac ko dumating na.
Naka download na ako ng isang sampler. thanks..

dsf at dff lang ba ang extension ng dsd? pwede rin ba syang maging flac?


Dsf at dff nga, it can be converted to flac but why would you want that? It would be like buying a record and want it to sound like mp3...

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #50 on: May 16, 2013 at 01:45 AM »
shukran habibi  ;D
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Offline timber715

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #51 on: May 16, 2013 at 03:49 AM »
try this link... you might like it.
http://hifiduino.wordpress.com/free-hi-res-music/

Offline JoeyGS

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Re: DSD, what sould we know? - A DSD Bomber....
« Reply #52 on: Sep 09, 2013 at 04:26 PM »
A DSD Bomber!

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2013/09/schiit-loki-adds-dsd-to-your-existing-dac-for-us149/#comment-24618

Anyone who wants a taste of DSD without investing mega bucks for a new DSD capable dac.

Awaiting review feedback from Darko......
« Last Edit: Sep 09, 2013 at 04:26 PM by JoeyGS »

Offline timber715

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #53 on: Sep 09, 2013 at 05:13 PM »
A DSD Bomber!

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2013/09/schiit-loki-adds-dsd-to-your-existing-dac-for-us149/#comment-24618

Anyone who wants a taste of DSD without investing mega bucks for a new DSD capable dac.

Awaiting review feedback from Darko......
Nice find Joey and with the advent of Jriver mc19 upsampling pcm2dsd, regular files can now be enjoyed in dsd format... So far, ibang iba ang upsampled music to dsd. Even comparing sonics from upsampled 386/24, mas maganda ang dsd output....

Offline JoeyGS

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #54 on: Sep 09, 2013 at 07:50 PM »
I hope the local Schiit seller can bring it in.

Nice find Joey and with the advent of Jriver mc19 upsampling pcm2dsd, regular files can now be enjoyed in dsd format... So far, ibang iba ang upsampled music to dsd. Even comparing sonics from upsampled 386/24, mas maganda ang dsd output....

Offline JoeyGS

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« Last Edit: Sep 28, 2013 at 10:48 AM by JoeyGS »

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #56 on: Oct 15, 2013 at 07:36 AM »
I hope the local Schiit seller can bring it in.


Agree.

Pang masa na DSD, pwede...

Offline JoeyGS

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Re: DSD, what sould we know?
« Reply #58 on: Feb 18, 2015 at 09:04 AM »
This thread was started by bro timber715 2 years ago na. :) Nowadays, there are some much affordable DSD DAC in the market. I just got the SMSL M8 24Bit/384KHz to get my feet wet in this DSD territory.  ^-^

Bro timber715, how did it go? Haven't heard from you for a long time. I presume more members are into this by now. :)