Author Topic: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here  (Read 283552 times)

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Offline camoteque

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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #660 on: Aug 06, 2014 at 10:21 AM »
Why use two full rangers? Is it because a single FR can't produce the desired bandwidth? Sayang lang ang point source advantage di ba if you use two? Besides, mag-iiba ang impedance seen by the amp when you parallel connect two drivers. Take note also of the difference in efficiencies of the two drivers.

IMO, kung dalawang driver and gagamitin, better to use a true woofer mated with a fullranger and the necessary (evil ha ha ha!) crossover.

Pasensya na kung nangingielam. :)

Offline deist

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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #661 on: Aug 06, 2014 at 11:56 AM »
Bro, I suggest you build the superpensil enclosure & make the 12P as a totally separate setup from your AN. Magkaiba naman for sure ang sound signature ng AN & MA so pwede kang switch depending on your mood  ;) Congrats in advance!
hehe ganun ba sir?kakabili ko lang from neo ng 12p..tingnan ko nlng kung anong dating ng SQ sakin. anyways nasa sis ko pa sa singapore so di ko pa matry sa ngayon..planning to build a BS enclosure for this and bi wire connect from my amp with my AN Floorstander...sana nga maganda kalabasan nito...AN+MA combo..


+1
Why use two full rangers? Is it because a single FR can't produce the desired bandwidth? Sayang lang ang point source advantage di ba if you use two? Besides, mag-iiba ang impedance seen by the amp when you parallel connect two drivers. Take note also of the difference in efficiencies of the two drivers.

IMO, kung dalawang driver and gagamitin, better to use a true woofer mated with a fullranger and the necessary (evil ha ha ha!) crossover.

Pasensya na kung nangingielam. :)

Offline RXV

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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #662 on: Aug 06, 2014 at 02:34 PM »
Why use two full rangers? Is it because a single FR can't produce the desired bandwidth? Sayang lang ang point source advantage di ba if you use two? Besides, mag-iiba ang impedance seen by the amp when you parallel connect two drivers. Take note also of the difference in efficiencies of the two drivers.

IMO, kung dalawang driver and gagamitin, better to use a true woofer mated with a fullranger and the necessary (evil ha ha ha!) crossover.

Pasensya na kung nangingielam. :)

+1
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Offline joesat

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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #663 on: Aug 06, 2014 at 02:52 PM »
^ yes sir RXV, to run simultaneously ung purpose...experimental kumbaga..wla naman cgurong problema sa impedance since im using a tube amp and sometimes tube pre+ss power combo...thanks for the suggestions..ill think about it...
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Offline JojoD818

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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #664 on: Aug 06, 2014 at 09:04 PM »
Why use two full rangers?

Why not?  >:D

Quote
Is it because a single FR can't produce the desired bandwidth?

If that's the case, better not use that driver. ;D

Quote
Sayang lang ang point source advantage di ba if you use two?

I'm curious bro, in your opinion, is it a make or break in a design decision?

Quote
Besides, mag-iiba ang impedance seen by the amp when you parallel connect two drivers. Take note also of the difference in efficiencies of the two drivers.


This wouldn't be much of a problem if the amp can withstand it naman.


Quote
IMO, kung dalawang driver and gagamitin, better to use a true woofer mated with a fullranger and the necessary (evil ha ha ha!) crossover.


Ganito sana ang gusto ko gawin, with separate volumes for the FR and a Dynaudio woofer. Pero nagiging complicated na kasi in my mind gusto ko powered yun woofer with it's own electronic crossover to eliminate the "evil" thing. ;D

Parang lalabas yata sub na yun woofer.  ::)


Quote
Pasensya na kung nangingielam. :)

Di naman tayo siguro mapapagalitan. ;D

Offline RXV

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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #665 on: Aug 06, 2014 at 10:19 PM »
For me, using two fullrange drivers (different brand/model/type) simultaneously defeats the purpose of the point source imaging of a fullrange's characteristics. Pwede naman sa pwede kung trip, but why do it? Sana nag bi-poles ka na lang or multi-speakers like the Bose enclosures kung ganun.

Although a fullrange is supposed to reproduce the entire bandwith of human hearing (in theory and specs), I still haven't heard or experience a single FR that can reproduce the entire human hearing bandwidth perfectly. No driver is perfect naman, I understand that.

Two sets of speakers in parallel connected to a tube amp can be done naman, but the question for me is more of the mismatch with regards to the sensitivity of each driver as well as the sonics (signature sound) of each driver, magkakahalo-halo na, at baka masapawan ng isang driver yung isa (just like having two different ported subs played simultaneously, hindi sabay ang tunog/timpla).

A fullrange mated with a woofer is actually very viable. That's why Mark Fenlon currently created the new A12BW, a true woofer dedicated to handle the lows while being sonically matched with his current drivers (and aesthetically too). Yun lang nga, I don't know about using a crossover.

But to each his own nga, I respect that. Naexperience ko rin to run two different Alpairs simultaneously (while burning them in before), and it's actually not that bad hehe. pero iba pa rin siyempre ang 1 set lang for critical listening.
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Offline deist

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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #666 on: Aug 07, 2014 at 12:56 AM »
The only benefit I see from using 2 sets of FR drivers simultaneously without using any form of crossover = SPL.
« Last Edit: Aug 07, 2014 at 12:57 AM by deist »

Offline joesat

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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #667 on: Aug 07, 2014 at 01:29 AM »
I like the pros and cons which u guys are pouring in...lalo akong gaganahan sa experiment ko....BS lang for this 12p para ma tame ung bass niya... so the AN lang ang incharge ng bass department..sana nga ok..
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Offline deist

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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #668 on: Aug 07, 2014 at 01:39 AM »
^how do you intend to implement the crossover,sir?

Offline joesat

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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #669 on: Aug 07, 2014 at 02:53 AM »
^walang crossover sir..just merely a small enclosure to tame the bass

Naexperience ko rin to run two different Alpairs simultaneously (while burning them in before), and it's actually not that bad hehe.

^with this statement, may pag asang gumanda project ko..heheh
« Last Edit: Aug 07, 2014 at 03:34 AM by joesat »
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Offline camoteque

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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #670 on: Aug 07, 2014 at 09:49 AM »
The only benefit I see from using 2 sets of FR drivers simultaneously without using any form of crossover = SPL.

Correct! Pero kung malayo ang difference sa SPL ng dalawang drivers baka hindi mo rin gaano madinig. For example nasa 95db up yung isang driver at yung isa naman ay nasa 88db lang. But then again you loose the point-source advantage. Isa pa, kung maganda na response nung isang driver tapos sinamahan mo ng isang peaky ang frequency response, baka mas pangit pa lumabas.

Pero kung nasa possession mo na ang dalawang drivers, maganda na subukan na rin kung magustuhan. Ha ha!

Offline camoteque

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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #671 on: Aug 07, 2014 at 10:13 AM »
Pasensya na po di ako marunong mag-"quote" kaya ang response pumasok din loob.

Why not?  >:D

If that's the case, better not use that driver. ;D

Actually yun din ang point ko.

I'm curious bro, in your opinion, is it a make or break in a design decision?
It depends. I don't see it much in full range forums that they use two full rangers (with different parameters at that) simultaneously. It defeats the purpose, IMO.

This wouldn't be much of a problem if the amp can withstand it naman.


Ganito sana ang gusto ko gawin, with separate volumes for the FR and a Dynaudio woofer. Pero nagiging complicated na kasi in my mind gusto ko powered yun woofer with it's own electronic crossover to eliminate the "evil" thing. ;D

Parang lalabas yata sub na yun woofer.  ::)

IMO, this is the better approach. Design the crossover (if passive) based on the woofer and the FR specs to be used. Mas madali sa active xover dahil you can tailor the response you want. Mas gagaang pa nga trabaho ng FR kasi it need not operate in the frequency na mahina siya. Mas liliit pa ang kahon ng FR gaya ng approach ni Gino if I'm not mistaken.




Di naman tayo siguro mapapagalitan.

Sana nga! HA HA ;D

JojoD,

Just want you to know that I still enjoy using the linestage and phonostage (in one) that you made for me several years ago. I just replaced the 12au7 tubes with 12BH7 which to my ears is better sounding in my system.

Larry


Offline JojoD818

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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #672 on: Aug 07, 2014 at 10:56 AM »
Pasensya na po di ako marunong mag-"quote" kaya ang response pumasok din loob.

JojoD,

Just want you to know that I still enjoy using the linestage and phonostage (in one) that you made for me several years ago. I just replaced the 12au7 tubes with 12BH7 which to my ears is better sounding in my system.

Larry



Larry,

Glad to hear that bro. :)

As for my MA+woofer dilemma, you mean to passively cross the MA driver also? O should I just rely on it's own cutoff?

Too unpredictable siguro ano?

Btw, the reason I opted for an active xover for the woofer is because I want to cross it where the MA falls to it's -3dB. So in effect the woofer reinforces the MA on the bass region. Pag mag passive ako and the frequency is low masyado lalaki ang coil specs which will make the "evil" more evilish diba? ;D

Di tayo mapapagalitan dito. ;) ;D

Offline JojoD818

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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #673 on: Aug 07, 2014 at 11:06 AM »
For me, using two fullrange drivers (different brand/model/type) simultaneously defeats the purpose of the point source imaging of a fullrange's characteristics. Pwede naman sa pwede kung trip, but why do it? Sana nag bi-poles ka na lang or multi-speakers like the Bose enclosures kung ganun.

Although a fullrange is supposed to reproduce the entire bandwith of human hearing (in theory and specs), I still haven't heard or experience a single FR that can reproduce the entire human hearing bandwidth perfectly. No driver is perfect naman, I understand that.

Two sets of speakers in parallel connected to a tube amp can be done naman, but the question for me is more of the mismatch with regards to the sensitivity of each driver as well as the sonics (signature sound) of each driver, magkakahalo-halo na, at baka masapawan ng isang driver yung isa (just like having two different ported subs played simultaneously, hindi sabay ang tunog/timpla).

A fullrange mated with a woofer is actually very viable. That's why Mark Fenlon currently created the new A12BW, a true woofer dedicated to handle the lows while being sonically matched with his current drivers (and aesthetically too). Yun lang nga, I don't know about using a crossover.

But to each his own nga, I respect that. Naexperience ko rin to run two different Alpairs simultaneously (while burning them in before), and it's actually not that bad hehe. pero iba pa rin siyempre ang 1 set lang for critical listening.


Would point source be totally lost with a two driver FR system? It's starting to sound like a severely dreaded thing to do from a FR perspective.

I've been using FR drivers too, my very first speakers are FRs naman and I enjoyed them but like you said, may pagka bitin talaga ang bandwidth especially in the extreme ends. The solution on the lower end is to design the box to maximize the bass which tends to be as big as a small vintage cabinet.

Kapag mismatch in sensitivities na paguusapan then that's it already. No two drivers are alike. Even the solid rocket boosters of the space shuttle are not completely alike - rocket science pa yun. This makes the single vs dual driver argument sound more like a purists argument rather than a technical one.

Wow so may woofers na pala... sana pati tweeters maglabas na din siya.

To each his own, I agree. Respect.

Cheers




Offline camoteque

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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #674 on: Aug 07, 2014 at 11:10 AM »
Larry,

Glad to hear that bro. :)

As for my MA+woofer dilemma, you mean to passively cross the MA driver also? O should I just rely on it's own cutoff?

Too unpredictable siguro ano?

Btw, the reason I opted for an active xover for the woofer is because I want to cross it where the MA falls to it's -3dB. So in effect the woofer reinforces the MA on the bass region. Pag mag passive ako and the frequency is low masyado lalaki ang coil specs which will make the "evil" more evilish diba? ;D

Di tayo mapapagalitan dito. ;) ;D

Mas maganda nga kung natural roll-off lang sana ng MA para wala na additional passive components. Better if you are able to measure the MA's performance in your room para makita mo kung saan siya nagroroll-off.

Kung gusto mo mag-trial and error without buying too many components, I have a two-way MiniDsp that I can loan you. I can try to send the accompanying software to you also. Pag nakuha mo na yung gusto mong SQ based sa frequency cut-off na napili mo, pwede ka na gumawa ng passive xover. PM me if you're interested.

Offline JojoD818

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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #675 on: Aug 07, 2014 at 02:11 PM »
Mas maganda nga kung natural roll-off lang sana ng MA para wala na additional passive components. Better if you are able to measure the MA's performance in your room para makita mo kung saan siya nagroroll-off.

Kung gusto mo mag-trial and error without buying too many components, I have a two-way MiniDsp that I can loan you. I can try to send the accompanying software to you also. Pag nakuha mo na yung gusto mong SQ based sa frequency cut-off na napili mo, pwede ka na gumawa ng passive xover. PM me if you're interested.

That's the plan sana bro, no xover for the FR, only the woofer has it, either passive or active kung gagawin ko powered. The FR has to be in it's proper box volume pa din but will end up like a sub-sat system na yata pag powered yun woofer.

Kung ganyan ang setup, ok kaya? Am I missing anything? Pros and Cons sort of thing.

Thanks for the offer bro, I do have access to a mic-rta rig at the moment but will let you know just in case. :)

TIA

Jojo


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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #676 on: Aug 18, 2014 at 01:31 PM »
The new Alpair 7P in action.

http://youtu.be/QT_7SzKpSKk

Offline JoeyGS

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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #677 on: Aug 19, 2014 at 01:47 PM »
Since my last progress post about end of April this year, I may have reached about 300++ hours of running time with my chr70a dual drivers as of todate.  The sound character still has changed.  For one, the gain has increased which is a sign that the driver's suspension is loosening up.  The perceived increase in gain provided a larger soundstage which makes the music presentation lifelike than it was when the drivers were at >100 hours running time.  The bass also has opened up yet retaining its tight character.  The mids and highs are still to die for.  The speaker now fills the room not only with sound, but it presents the music with the right size and depth.  Also, music flows effortlessly without straining oneself into analyzing the music presentation.  Listening to music is now more relaxed.

I feel that the this speakers can present the character of your sources, especially in my case where I am currently tweaking my digital source.  Each tweak I make is now apparent with the help of this transparent speakers.  I can easily spot the differences whenever I change something in the audio chain.

I wonder what will happen when it reaches the 400 hour mark .......  Mark Fenlon and his friends over at diyaudio has indicated that the full potential of the speakers will be revealed when it reaches the 400 hour mark......

For those who have ventured with mark audio drivers, be patient until the drivers reach the 400 hour mark ...... Happy listening.....
« Last Edit: Aug 19, 2014 at 01:49 PM by JoeyGS »

Offline deist

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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #678 on: Aug 19, 2014 at 03:00 PM »
^ very well said sir Joey. It's great that you can put into words your experience with these drivers eloquently, all I can add now is: " I share the same experience!"   ;D >:D

I'm guessing others are having second thoughts on the capabilities of MA drivers SPL wise because of the small cone size, well it can easily fill my 18sqm home office room without effort. Lastly, the small diameter of the cone also means a bigger sweet spot  8)
« Last Edit: Aug 19, 2014 at 03:03 PM by deist »

Offline JoeyGS

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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #679 on: Aug 19, 2014 at 03:26 PM »
But i am now excited with the Alpair 7p (mids and highs) and the Alpair 12pw (low mids and low lows) combination! No need for subs and this will rock!

As Mark quoted for the Alpair 12pw:

Please remember the 12PW remains a light-duty driver. Those into "head-banging", "continuous rock-un roll" or intent on ear drum damage, the 12PW is NOT the driver for you. If however, you want to go low and get a serious audiophile quality sound where you can easily tell the audible difference between a double-bass and a bass-guitar when both instruments are oscillating at <40 cycles, this IS the driver for you.

The new Alpair 7P in action.

http://youtu.be/QT_7SzKpSKk
« Last Edit: Aug 19, 2014 at 03:27 PM by JoeyGS »

Offline JoeyGS

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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #680 on: Aug 19, 2014 at 03:29 PM »
We should schedule the long overdue listening session ...... ang lapit na natin .... di pa natin maituloy ... hehehe

^ very well said sir Joey. It's great that you can put into words your experience with these drivers eloquently, all I can add now is: " I share the same experience!"   ;D >:D

I'm guessing others are having second thoughts on the capabilities of MA drivers SPL wise because of the small cone size, well it can easily fill my 18sqm home office room without effort. Lastly, the small diameter of the cone also means a bigger sweet spot  8)

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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #681 on: Aug 20, 2014 at 11:00 AM »
You got PM...sa viber  ;)

We should schedule the long overdue listening session ...... ang lapit na natin .... di pa natin maituloy ... hehehe

Offline JoeyGS

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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #682 on: Aug 20, 2014 at 12:15 PM »
Copy that!

You got PM...sa viber  ;)


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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #683 on: Aug 21, 2014 at 11:50 AM »
Had a blast light night during our listening session over at Sir JoeyGs' place. His room is properly treated and his setup is at par with that of Audio/Video shop's listening room & even Hi-Fi shows. His gear include quality sources; a customized fanless PC paired with Twisted Pear's Buffalo DAC, A customized cd player that can put to shame high end branded ones, A Technics SL-1210M5G & a Luxman TT, (forgot the model & cart), all powered by JDLabs custom made monoblock power amps via Aikido preamp (Sir Joey, pls fill in the items I missed). And an assortment of audiophile quality cables, while we on the other hand are enjoying freshly brewed coffee  ;)

And don't get me started with his records & CD collection in several carts & racks occupying half of the room. And yes, more records stacked in about 6 feet high racks in the living room  8) O0

We started by playing high resolution lossless files via PC & his MA dual CHR-70A in pensil enclosure, those little buggers can SING! and sing LOUD! Couldn't believe the quality of sound we're getting out of those 4inchers.

Then we tried my MA Alpair 10P in pensil cabinets, first with lossless files - Audiophile voices etc, we moved to CDs - Lush Life by John Coltrane, Diana Kralls' Love Scenes, Toto, Ella & Louis, etc. Then an assortment of records with the Luxman TT.

After trying out 3 different type of sources I must say the KING & will remain in the throne for a long time is still ANALOG! It gives a presence which can't be rivaled by lossless files & CDs, it paints a picture of you in the same room with the artists playing. The music just comes out more "alive" & the impact is just soothing to the senses.

The MAs performed well & I honestly believe the quality of sound I heard last night was simply phenomenal especially when you take into consideration the total cost of the speaker build. We were all smiling the whole time and then Sir Joey put on the record - "Moonlight Serenade" by Ray Brown & Laurindo Almeida. Sir Joey, just when Ray Brown was about to start his bass solo shushed us saying; "Eto na hinihintay natin", Sir Ed stopped browsing thru records and remained motionless then at the end of the track quipped "Yan ang recording"...And me, it almost brought tears to my eyes  ^-^

Till next time Sir Joey & thank you for the hospitality. Sarap tumambay sa listening room mo.
« Last Edit: Aug 21, 2014 at 02:14 PM by deist »

Offline JoeyGS

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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #684 on: Aug 21, 2014 at 09:53 PM »
Finally, we did it!  Happy having you over in my audio cave ^-^ and good that Ed was able to join us.

I was surprised when you brought along your 10p and I was glad you did.  I think the 10p is a good size for my room  8) O0

One thing I have confirmed is that Mark Audio (MA) drivers when built properly will bring out the character of your audio chain system.  MA drivers are quite transparent, not boxy and is similar to magnetic planars or electrostatics in sound character.  It's fast and quick which gives you the PRAT and SPL, even with relatively small drivers.  The sound is soothing and free flowing without strain, enjoying volume levels that would fill the room realizing full size image of the singers and the instruments.  And you are right that among the sources we used, vinyl is KING.......

We ended with you knowing what your 10p can do and leaving with a huge but good problem .....  >:D >:D >:D

I too also have learned a thing or too and will continue to progress into improving my set-up.

Music with analog instruments + MA speakers + analog source = natural analogue music!

Til the next session.......

« Last Edit: Aug 21, 2014 at 09:56 PM by JoeyGS »

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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #685 on: Aug 21, 2014 at 10:00 PM »
BTW, someone out there told me na sana ma-describe mo daw what you heard during the session..... Hehehe

Offline Cjtjader

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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #686 on: Aug 21, 2014 at 10:36 PM »
BTW, someone out there told me na sana ma-describe mo daw what you heard during the session..... Hehehe

+1 :)
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Offline Cjtjader

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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #687 on: Aug 21, 2014 at 10:47 PM »
I've witnessed JoeyGS's audio journey, from LSA1 to ViennaAcoustic to Living Voice to Maggies+dualSubs, and al i can say is that Mark Audio dual driver project beats them all! Congratulations, Joey! Cheers! 8) 8)
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Offline deist

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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #688 on: Aug 22, 2014 at 10:29 AM »
I knew someone is bound to ask this question  :)

Let's start with soundstaging, to simply put it the MAs produce a large soundstage, you will hear layers upon layers of sound and quite a vivid imaging. First: the Vocalist, she/he was always in the middle with the other members in places where they should be; in Diana Krall's Love Scenes, first track - "All or Nothing", a pronounced 14 second bass line intro coming from the sides, recessed, then when Diana Krall sang the first line, the first word seemed to come out like a shout but for me it's more like a purposeful introduction to the power of her voice. And throughout, the vocalist was in complete control & ever so slightly just giving way to band members' solos.

The drums, what is considered as the most "impactful" instrument in a band. I chose Toto's tracks Rosanna & Africa to demonstrate this. In the track "Africa" there's a drum roll right before the chorus, I clearly heard & felt how the drummer (Keith Carlock or was it Jeff Porcaro?) navigated his sticks from the snares - high tom - middle tom - floor tom - then to the cymbals and the MAs presented it from left side of the room to the right, then the ride+crash cymbals on each side at the same time.

Guitar & bass; for this Sir Ed wanted to try "Moonlight Serenade" a jazz duet by bass player Ray Brown & guitarist Laurindo Almeida. He described Almeida's playing here as "precise" in a swiss watch like manner. And true to that, I didn't hear a miscalculation or a finger accidentally touching any of the fret bars. Ray Brown's breathtaking solos filled the room with a strong presence, full, rich and lots of bottom end.

To sum it up, I realized that there wasn't anything missing in the sound, if not for a bit more low end for more impact. But throughout the whole session it was there, the bass is not too loose & not too tight but coherent. Forget about tweeters of any kind, the sparkle in the Alpair 10P's highs covers frequencies well beyond what a human ear can hear but in a finessed and in a not "screechy" manner.

Hope this helps, guys  :)

BTW, someone out there told me na sana ma-describe mo daw what you heard during the session..... Hehehe
« Last Edit: Aug 22, 2014 at 04:25 PM by deist »

Offline Gino

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Re: MarkAudio Extended Full Range drivers - Post your build here
« Reply #689 on: Aug 22, 2014 at 10:36 AM »
What you don't hear the brain perceives as presence. That is the foundation of imaging. Good session you guys had. Well, can't really expect less for such top quality research and work.