Author Topic: Question on the Holy Trinity  (Read 54676 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jerix

  • Trade Count: (+17)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,154
  • got no golden ears...just loving music
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 70
Question on the Holy Trinity
« on: Jul 29, 2014 at 08:58 AM »
To all who believes:

If the Holy Trinity postulates 3 equal Gods which existed co-equally even prior to creation, and Jesus Christ, the God with flesh, is supposed to be God the son, then who was God the son before the birth of Christ?

Thanks to anybody who will respond. :)
Samsung65MU6303/TCL4kPS49TV/OnkSR608/OnkTXNR676/Marantz/Akai/Sansui/PrjEssential-II

Offline darkangel69

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 427
  • | this guy is a music lover |
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Question on the Holy Trinity
« Reply #1 on: Jul 29, 2014 at 09:11 AM »
For what I believe there is no biblical basis on the Holy Trinity doctrine. There is no single person in the entire Bible that ever used "One God in three persons", "God the Son", "God the Holy Spirit" and of course "Holy Trinity".
--*--AM JUST A MUSIC LOVER--*--

Offline SiCkBoY

  • Trade Count: (+31)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,498
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 47
Re: Question on the Holy Trinity
« Reply #2 on: Jul 29, 2014 at 04:16 PM »
To all who believes:

If the Holy Trinity postulates 3 equal Gods which existed co-equally even prior to creation, and Jesus Christ, the God with flesh, is supposed to be God the son, then who was God the son before the birth of Christ?

Thanks to anybody who will respond. :)

I am not an expert on Catholicism but from what I know, your premise (Holy Trinity postulates 3 equal Gods which existed co-equally even prior to creation) is wrong.  There is only one God, albeit in three persons.

Offline darkangel69

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 427
  • | this guy is a music lover |
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Question on the Holy Trinity
« Reply #3 on: Jul 29, 2014 at 05:06 PM »
I am not an expert on Catholicism but from what I know, your premise (Holy Trinity postulates 3 equal Gods which existed co-equally even prior to creation) is wrong.  There is only one God, albeit in three persons.

I believe this is also a false belief.

There is only one God -
Deu 4:35  Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

Deu 4:39  Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

There is none like God -
Exo 8:10  And he said, To morrow. And he said, Be it according to thy word: that thou mayest know that there is none like unto the LORD our God.

Jesus Christ and God (The Father) are two distinct being -
Joh 17:3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


--*--AM JUST A MUSIC LOVER--*--

Offline Nelson de Leon

  • Trade Count: (+141)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,084
  • Let us lead by example
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 291
Re: Question on the Holy Trinity
« Reply #4 on: Jul 29, 2014 at 05:25 PM »
Form NIV:

Quote
Genesis 1:26 New International Version (NIV)

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

Sino ang kausap dito?

Offline darkangel69

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 427
  • | this guy is a music lover |
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Question on the Holy Trinity
« Reply #5 on: Jul 29, 2014 at 06:21 PM »
Form NIV:
Genesis 1:26 New International Version (NIV)

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

Sino ang kausap dito?

God might be referring to angels as it would contradict with other scriptures such as this:

KJV
Isaiah 45:5  I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

There is nothing in Genesis 1:26 about three persons in God.



--*--AM JUST A MUSIC LOVER--*--

Offline jerix

  • Trade Count: (+17)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,154
  • got no golden ears...just loving music
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 70
Re: Question on the Holy Trinity
« Reply #6 on: Jul 29, 2014 at 07:15 PM »
I cant respond based on biblical verses...I am just reading all your posts. This was my question to our religion teacher in Baste' way back during college days. Sabi ng Prof ko -- you should have faith to believe...according to him the Holy trinity is a mystery.
Samsung65MU6303/TCL4kPS49TV/OnkSR608/OnkTXNR676/Marantz/Akai/Sansui/PrjEssential-II

Offline jerix

  • Trade Count: (+17)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,154
  • got no golden ears...just loving music
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 70
Re: Question on the Holy Trinity
« Reply #7 on: Jul 29, 2014 at 07:20 PM »
I am not an expert on Catholicism but from what I know, your premise (Holy Trinity postulates 3 equal Gods which existed co-equally even prior to creation) is wrong.  There is only one God, albeit in three persons.

So three persons in one God. Granting this to be true, God the son should be with the God the father and God the Holy spirit even the beginning of times. So the question would be the same, who was god the son before the birth of Christ?
Samsung65MU6303/TCL4kPS49TV/OnkSR608/OnkTXNR676/Marantz/Akai/Sansui/PrjEssential-II

Offline nbc

  • Trade Count: (+67)
  • DVD Guru
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,264
  • Hi, I'm new here!
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Question on the Holy Trinity
« Reply #8 on: Jul 29, 2014 at 07:28 PM »
Aliens... It was always Aliens.

nbc
***Take a Walk on the Dark Side***

Offline darkangel69

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 427
  • | this guy is a music lover |
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Question on the Holy Trinity
« Reply #9 on: Jul 29, 2014 at 07:45 PM »
Aliens... It was always Aliens.

nbc

Great answer... ;D
--*--AM JUST A MUSIC LOVER--*--

Offline darkangel69

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 427
  • | this guy is a music lover |
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Question on the Holy Trinity
« Reply #10 on: Jul 29, 2014 at 07:46 PM »
So three persons in one God. Granting this to be true, God the son should be with the God the father and God the Holy spirit even the beginning of times. So the question would be the same, who was god the son before the birth of Christ?

Hindi mo yata binabasa post ko sir jerix, God is God alone.
--*--AM JUST A MUSIC LOVER--*--

Offline leomarley

  • Trade Count: (+33)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,904
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Question on the Holy Trinity
« Reply #11 on: Jul 29, 2014 at 08:25 PM »
So three persons in one God. Granting this to be true, God the son should be with the God the father and God the Holy spirit even the beginning of times. So the question would be the same, who was god the son before the birth of Christ?

i think what sir jerix is trying to ask is: Is there a Holy Trinity before Christ was born?

Offline leomarley

  • Trade Count: (+33)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,904
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Question on the Holy Trinity
« Reply #12 on: Jul 29, 2014 at 08:27 PM »
Sabi ng Prof ko -- you should have faith to believe...according to him the Holy trinity is a mystery.


kakaiba talaga ang sagot. pag di na masagot yung tanong, sasabihin na lang "basta you must have faith!". what a cop-out.

Offline darkangel69

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 427
  • | this guy is a music lover |
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Question on the Holy Trinity
« Reply #13 on: Jul 29, 2014 at 08:40 PM »
i think what sir jerix is trying to ask is: Is there a Holy Trinity before Christ was born?

Baka nga siguro, or he wasn't asking about the validity of the Holy Trinity doctrine.
--*--AM JUST A MUSIC LOVER--*--

Offline Nelson de Leon

  • Trade Count: (+141)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,084
  • Let us lead by example
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 291
Re: Question on the Holy Trinity
« Reply #14 on: Jul 29, 2014 at 09:12 PM »
God might be referring to angels as it would contradict with other scriptures such as this:

KJV
Isaiah 45:5  I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

There is nothing in Genesis 1:26 about three persons in God.


Isaiah 6:8
Quote
8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for Us?”

Isaiah 9:6
Quote
For to Us a child is born,
    to Us a son is given,
    and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
    Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Who is the child they are referring to as  Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Offline Nelson de Leon

  • Trade Count: (+141)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,084
  • Let us lead by example
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 291
Re: Question on the Holy Trinity
« Reply #15 on: Jul 29, 2014 at 09:16 PM »
Psalm 110:1

Quote
Announcement of the Messiah’s Reign

1 The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,

Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
2 The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies!

Sino ang magkausap dito? I'm sure hindi angels because hindi pwedeng tawaging Lord ang angels.

Offline darkangel69

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 427
  • | this guy is a music lover |
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Question on the Holy Trinity
« Reply #16 on: Jul 29, 2014 at 09:51 PM »
The word Psalms come from the greek word psalmos which means song to which King David authors most of the Book of Psalms. Now this Psalms were sang by Levites in the Temple (of David).

The Lord [God] said to my master [King David] “Sit thou at my right hand…” (Psalm 110:1).

To understand the above statement we must go back to original text to which the verse were translated. In the original text (Hebrew) the first word is the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) to which we know is God, the second word adonee means “to my master” or “to my lord.”

The Hebrew word adonee never refers to God anywhere in the Bible. It is used only to address a person, never God. That is to say, God, the Creator of the universe, is never called adonee in the Bible. There are many words reserved for God in the Bible; adonee, however, is not one of them.
--*--AM JUST A MUSIC LOVER--*--

Offline darkangel69

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 427
  • | this guy is a music lover |
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Question on the Holy Trinity
« Reply #17 on: Jul 29, 2014 at 09:54 PM »
The same word adonee was used in the following verses:

Genesis 32:4  And he commanded them, saying, Thus shall ye speak unto my lord Esau; Thy servant Jacob saith thus, I have sojourned with Laban, and stayed there until now:

--*--AM JUST A MUSIC LOVER--*--

Offline dpogs

  • Trade Count: (+95)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,397
  • love and discipline
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 483
Re: Question on the Holy Trinity
« Reply #18 on: Jul 29, 2014 at 10:57 PM »
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 14:16-17
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

To all who believes:

If the Holy Trinity postulates 3 equal Gods which existed co-equally even prior to creation, and Jesus Christ, the God with flesh, is supposed to be God the son, then who was God the son before the birth of Christ? "the Word"
Thanks to anybody who will respond. :)

God the Son before the birth of Christ: "In the beginning was the Word..."

God the Son is the Word of God.
« Last Edit: Jul 29, 2014 at 11:07 PM by dpogs »
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline dodie

  • Trade Count: (+36)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,600
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Question on the Holy Trinity
« Reply #19 on: Jul 29, 2014 at 11:29 PM »
st augustine has wrote a theology about the holy trinity. for those who have questions regading  its existence can seach his study and explanations about it.

but before doing so, let me share to you a short story about the most questioned personas of our lord:

One day st augustine was walking along a beach when he came across a little boy running to the waters edge, filling his pail, and then running to a hole he had dug in the sand and putting the water in. When Gus asked him what he was doing, he said, 'I am pouring the sea into this hole in the sand.' 'Can't be done'' said Gus, 'the sea is too large and the hole is too small.' The boy answered, ' So it is with you and the Trinity. The Mystery is too large and your mind is too small'. With these words, he vanished.........
WCH CM U?

Offline jerix

  • Trade Count: (+17)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,154
  • got no golden ears...just loving music
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 70
Re: Question on the Holy Trinity
« Reply #20 on: Jul 30, 2014 at 07:09 AM »
Great readings... ;)
Samsung65MU6303/TCL4kPS49TV/OnkSR608/OnkTXNR676/Marantz/Akai/Sansui/PrjEssential-II

Offline jerix

  • Trade Count: (+17)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,154
  • got no golden ears...just loving music
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 70
Re: Question on the Holy Trinity
« Reply #21 on: Jul 30, 2014 at 07:20 AM »
Hindi mo yata binabasa post ko sir jerix, God is God alone.

Of course reading all your posts bro...I am in fact enjoyin it.
Samsung65MU6303/TCL4kPS49TV/OnkSR608/OnkTXNR676/Marantz/Akai/Sansui/PrjEssential-II

Offline jerix

  • Trade Count: (+17)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,154
  • got no golden ears...just loving music
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 70
Re: Question on the Holy Trinity
« Reply #22 on: Jul 30, 2014 at 07:22 AM »
i think what sir jerix is trying to ask is: Is there a Holy Trinity before Christ was born?

This is another very interesting question that i want to explore...
Samsung65MU6303/TCL4kPS49TV/OnkSR608/OnkTXNR676/Marantz/Akai/Sansui/PrjEssential-II

Offline jerix

  • Trade Count: (+17)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,154
  • got no golden ears...just loving music
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 70
Re: Question on the Holy Trinity
« Reply #23 on: Jul 30, 2014 at 07:27 AM »
st augustine has wrote a theology about the holy trinity. for those who have questions regading  its existence can seach his study and explanations about it.

but before doing so, let me share to you a short story about the most questioned personas of our lord:

One day st augustine was walking along a beach when he came across a little boy running to the waters edge, filling his pail, and then running to a hole he had dug in the sand and putting the water in. When Gus asked him what he was doing, he said, 'I am pouring the sea into this hole in the sand.' 'Can't be done'' said Gus, 'the sea is too large and the hole is too small.' The boy answered, ' So it is with you and the Trinity. The Mystery is too large and your mind is too small'. With these words, he vanished.........

Nice story... but why do you think God wanted this Trinity to be mysterious as we are thinking it now to be?
Samsung65MU6303/TCL4kPS49TV/OnkSR608/OnkTXNR676/Marantz/Akai/Sansui/PrjEssential-II

Offline tenderfender

  • Trade Count: (+38)
  • DVD Addict
  • ***
  • Posts: 528
  • "vincere et docere" (to win and to teach)
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Question on the Holy Trinity
« Reply #24 on: Jul 30, 2014 at 07:36 AM »
has science already answered (based on empirical facts) the questions about what's at the edge and more importantly,  the other side of the universe?

if anybody can give the answer, i'll rest my case on the Trinity mystery.

otherwise, prehas lang ang relihiyon at agham, a feeble mind (mine included) can never fathom both mysteries
« Last Edit: Jul 30, 2014 at 07:38 AM by tenderfender »
"Some of the worst things imaginable have been done with the best intentions"

Offline Quitacet

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,765
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 65
Re: Question on the Holy Trinity
« Reply #25 on: Jul 30, 2014 at 07:40 AM »
jerix, You are forgetting that all three persons are under one other entity: Mary, the mother of Jesus.

God the Father (is of course the Father, through the Holy Spirit) and Mary is the mother.

Since God the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is just one God, in three persons, it would mean that Mary who is God's (the Father) daughter as we (all men) all are, was impregnated by the same God (through the Holy Spirit) and borne Jesus Christ who is also the same God but in a different person (the Son)

So Mary is the daughter, wife 9so to speak) and mother of this one God in three different persons.

and Jesus would be his own father, his own Son and his mother is his daughter also.

Kinda reminds me of old Hercules and Zeus.


Offline leomarley

  • Trade Count: (+33)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,904
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Question on the Holy Trinity
« Reply #26 on: Jul 30, 2014 at 07:56 AM »
has science already answered (based on empirical facts) the questions about what's at the edge and more importantly,  the other side of the universe?

if anybody can give the answer, i'll rest my case on the Trinity mystery.

otherwise, prehas lang ang relihiyon at agham, a feeble mind (mine included) can never fathom both mysteries

they have theories based on mathematics and simulations. not yet tested though.

science and religion are, of course, different.

science gathers evidence first, tests the theory thourgh experimentations and/or observations, and upholds it as true if the theory holds. they change it once new evidence are found that negates the previous theory. they also doesn't claim knowledge over everything. otherwise, why practice science if they think they already know everything?

religion, on the other hand, does not accept anything other than what's written, and translated from one language to another multiple times, millenniums ago. they claim to know everything already and when asked something that they cannot answer they just simply say: "that's why it's called faith."

Offline Quitacet

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,765
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 65
Re: Question on the Holy Trinity
« Reply #27 on: Jul 30, 2014 at 07:59 AM »
they have theories based on mathematics and simulations. not yet tested though.

science and religion are, of course, different.

science gathers evidence first, tests the theory thourgh experimentations and/or observations, and upholds it as true if the theory holds. they change it once new evidence are found that negates the previous theory. they also doesn't claim knowledge over everything. otherwise, why practice science if they think they already know everything?

religion, on the other hand, does not accept anything other than what's written, and translated from one language to another multiple times, millenniums ago. they claim to know everything already and when asked something that they cannot answer they just simply say: "that's why it's called faith."

as Tim Michin said:

"Science adjusts it's beliefs based on what's observed
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."

Offline dodie

  • Trade Count: (+36)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,600
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Question on the Holy Trinity
« Reply #28 on: Jul 30, 2014 at 08:57 AM »
Nice story... but why do you think God wanted this Trinity to be mysterious as we are thinking it now to be?

i dont think god wants us to think about the mystery of the trinity. the 2 persona were not in question, being the god the father and son unless you qustion the divinity of the two. the 3rd is the spirit sent by god  to guide the apostles into "all the truths". the next thing is, if you believe and interpret the bible verses that mention the holy spirit as the gift and guide of the faithful, believing that what has god sent us is his spirit in the name of his son.....

some biblical verses that myt be of interest to you..

John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

John 14:15-17
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

Acts 19:1-6
And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John's baptism.” And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.















WCH CM U?

Offline Quitacet

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,765
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 65
Re: Question on the Holy Trinity
« Reply #29 on: Jul 30, 2014 at 09:11 AM »
Frankly there are many events and characters in the Bible both in the OT and NT that requires investigation, not only the Trinity.