Topic: Question on the Holy Trinity

[barrister]

If one verse says one thing and another verse says another, who decides which is correct? Magulo naman ata yun

You mean pag magkakontra ang dalawang verses?
 
Wala namang verses na magkakontra.
 
E di magbigay ka sir ng example ng verses na tingin mo ay magkakontra, at sasabihin ko naman kung bakit hindi talaga magkakontra yon. 

[heisenbergman]

You mean pag magkakontra ang dalawang verses?
 
Wala namang verses na magkakontra.
 
E di magbigay ka sir ng example ng verses na tingin mo ay magkakontra, at sasabihin ko naman kung bakit hindi talaga magkakontra yon. 

Psalm 145:9 - "The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works."

Jeremiah 13:14 - "And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the Lord: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them."

(not to mention the many instances across the entire Bible where God displays his wrath)

==========

Exodus 15:3 - The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.

Romans 15:33 - Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

==========

The biggest contradiction for me in the Bible is whether God is an unmerciful God of destruction, wrath, etc etc or a kind and loving, forgiving God. There are a lot of examples in the Bible that exemplify both, and are stated in the absolute. So in that very nature of God, there is a big contradiction.

[bumblebee]

You mean pag magkakontra ang dalawang verses?
 
Wala namang verses na magkakontra.
 
E di magbigay ka sir ng example ng verses na tingin mo ay magkakontra, at sasabihin ko naman kung bakit hindi talaga magkakontra yon. 

I don't even read the Bible. Just asking saro a question.

[dpogs]

Psalm 145:9 - "The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works."

Jeremiah 13:14 - "And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the Lord: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them."

(not to mention the many instances across the entire Bible where God displays his wrath)

==========

Exodus 15:3 - The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.

Romans 15:33 - Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

==========

The biggest contradiction for me in the Bible is whether God is an unmerciful God of destruction, wrath, etc etc or a kind and loving, forgiving God. There are a lot of examples in the Bible that exemplify both, and are stated in the absolute. So in that very nature of God, there is a big contradiction.

contradiction in concept of 'trinity', 'Holy Spirt as God'... divine unity... etc...

but we can discuss these - other contradiction - in other this thread http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php/topic,141525.0.html

[heisenbergman]

^ I think saro, barrister & bumblebee were taking about contradictions of the Bible in general.

[rexFi]

Wow haba na.

My professor in Philosophy 101 had a favorite example of fallacy:

The Bible is the Word of God.
How do you know that it is the Word of God?
Because it says so in the Bible.

^ This needs to be addressed though. This is called circular reasoning but the arguments I think that trumps this is because the Bible is the Authority or has the final word when it comes to Moral and Spiritual... stuff.

See examples here: http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/appeals/appeal-to-authority/

The question to ask then is about its Authenticity.

Maybe create another topic for this then.

[dpogs]

^ I think saro, barrister & bumblebee were taking about contradictions of the Bible in general.

and we can give some verses na sa tingin natin ay in contradiction pero nasa topic pa rin

Did Jesus have two fathers? God the Father or the Holy Spirit > two contradicting verse: I John 1:3 and Luke 1:35... contradiction pero nasa topic pa rin...

Who is responsible for Jesus' resurrection: the God the Father (Eph. 1:20), the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:11) or si Jesus mismo (John 2:19-21)

[rexFi]

Favorite kong "contradiction" is Mark 10:18

Good ba si Jesus or Hinde? hehe

[heisenbergman]

as Tim Michin said:

"Science adjusts its beliefs based on what's observed
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."

omg Tim Michin mention

I love this guy, and that is a brilliant, truthful quote.

[sirhc]

Kung wala sa bible and holy trinity, san ba nagsimula ang Trinity Doctrine? Who incorporated it as a Catholic teaching?

[saro]

Did Jesus have two fathers? God the Father or the Holy Spirit > two contradicting verse: I John 1:3 and Luke 1:35... contradiction pero nasa topic pa rin--
wala pong contradicting jan..
as ive posted earlier,holy spirit is not a person,it is the active force of god,that god is sending to fulfill his works..(genesis 1:2)psalms 143:10.
holy spirit dont act on its own..

Who is responsible for Jesus' resurrection: the God the Father (Eph. 1:20), the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:11) or si Jesus mismo (John 2:19-21)--
in ephesians its very clear that it is god,
in romans- "And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you"--
father send his holy spirit to resurect jesus..
sa john-Ang gayong pangmalas ay magiging salungat sa Galacia 1:1, na nagsasabing ang bumuhay kay Jesus ay ang Ama, hindi ang Anak. Sa nakakatulad na pananalita, sa Lucas 8:48 si Jesus ay nagsabi sa isang babae: “Pinagaling ka ng iyong pananampalataya.” Pinagaling ba niya ang kaniyang sarili? Hindi; ang kapangyarihan ng Diyos sa pamamagitan ni Kristo ang nagpagaling sa kaniya dahil sa kaniyang pananampalataya. (Luc. 8:46; Gawa 10:38)

[leomarley]

Psalm 145:9 - "The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works."

Jeremiah 13:14 - "And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the Lord: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them."

(not to mention the many instances across the entire Bible where God displays his wrath)

==========

Exodus 15:3 - The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.

Romans 15:33 - Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

==========

The biggest contradiction for me in the Bible is whether God is an unmerciful God of destruction, wrath, etc etc or a kind and loving, forgiving God. There are a lot of examples in the Bible that exemplify both, and are stated in the absolute. So in that very nature of God, there is a big contradiction.

I second this.

[rexFi]

I second this.

^ Authority or Sovereignity parin ang answer dyan.
He does those things in His Time by His own judgements.

Those "wrath" verses probably is talking about how He goes about acting upon His own brand of Justice.

So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Romans 9:18 NASB

omg Tim Michin mention

I love this guy, and that is a brilliant, truthful quote.

Not that Truthful for Faith is not blind, it is a strongly warranted confidence. i.e. Reasoned Faith.

[saro]

wala pong contradicting sa mga verses na iyan..
Ang diyos ay makapangyarihan..bukod diyan,marami syang katangian.
if absolute talaga ang nature ng god like sa psalm 145:9-"The Lord is good to all",meaning ba mabait sya kahit sa gumagawa ng masama? if ganyan ang magiging reasoning,then god dont exercise his other qualities like righteousness or love..
When Moses asked God about His name, He replied: “I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be.” (Exodus 3:14) Rotherham’s translation renders it: “I Will Become whatsoever I please.” Gods name reveals that he is a God of innumerable roles. To use a simple illustration: A mother may need to fill many roles each day in caring for her children—as a nurse, a cook, a teacher—according to the need that arises. It is similar with Him, though on a more elevated level. In order to accomplish his loving purpose for mankind, he can become whatever he pleases, filling whatever role is needed. Knowing God by name thus involves understanding and appreciating his many roles..

[rexFi]

Kung wala sa bible and holy trinity, san ba nagsimula ang Trinity Doctrine? Who incorporated it as a Catholic teaching?

Its not a necessarily a Catholic Teaching.

Out of necessity dati kaya pinagaralan nila nature ng God Head. E.g. pinakamalapit siguro matetrace kaya naformulate based sa Bible ang Trinity is because of the Arians na nagsulputan noon <-- group of people na may belief na created being si Jesus misinterpreting "The Firstborn" of all creation verse etc.

Well google nalang kelangan pa magreview hehe.

[barrister]

Psalm 145:9 - "The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works."

Jeremiah 13:14 - "And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the Lord: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them."

(not to mention the many instances across the entire Bible where God displays his wrath)

==========

Exodus 15:3 - The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.

Romans 15:33 - Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

==========

The biggest contradiction for me in the Bible is whether God is an unmerciful God of destruction, wrath, etc etc or a kind and loving, forgiving God. There are a lot of examples in the Bible that exemplify both, and are stated in the absolute. So in that very nature of God, there is a big contradiction.

 
 
No, that is not the "biggest" contradiction in the bible.  There are many other verses that are seemingly contradictory and much more difficult to reconcile, yet it will turn out that they are easily reconcilable ater all.
 
God is merciful and compassionate before He executes His judgment.  But those who reject his mercy and compassion will no longer find mercy or compassion when the time for execution of judgment comes.
 
In the Old Testament, execution of judgment was on this earth.  In the New Testament, execution of judgment will be on the last day.
 
If God's mercy were unlimited, then there should be no hell at all.  Anyone faced with hellfire would surely beg for mercy on his knees.  Then God with His unlimited mercy would forgive, and nobody would go to hell.  If everyone would be forgiven anyway, why fear hell?
 
Yet there is a limit to God's mercy.  In the last day, there will be a final destruction, and God will show no mercy to those condemned to hellfire.
 
So it's the same thing as in the Old Testament.  Mercy to those who would accept it prior to judgment; no mercy to those who would reject it. So, on execution of judgment, no more mercy or compassion.   
 
I can cite apparent contradictions that are much more difficult to answer.  But that should be on the main Religion thread.
 

[Nelson de Leon]

 
 
No, that is not the "biggest" contradiction in the bible.  There are many other verses that are seemingly contradictory and much more difficult to reconcile, yet it will turn out that they are easily reconcilable ater all.
 
God is merciful and compassionate before He executes His judgment.  But those who reject his mercy and compassion will no longer find mercy or compassion when the time for execution of judgment comes.
 
In the Old Testament, execution of judgment was on this earth.  In the New Testament, execution of judgment will be on the last day.
 
If God's mercy were unlimited, then there should be no hell at all.  Anyone faced with hellfire would surely beg for mecy on his knees.  Then God with His unlimited mercy would forgive, and nobody would go to hell.  If everyone would be forgiven anyway, why fear hell?
 
Yet there is a limit to God's mercy.  In the last day, there will be a final destruction, and God will show no mercy to those condemned to hellfire.
 
So it's the same thing as in the Old Testament.  Mercy to those who would accept it prior to judgment; no mercy to those who would reject it. So, on execution of judgment, no more mercy or compassion.   
 
I can cite apparent contradictions that are much more difficult to answer.  But that should be on the main Religion thread.

Tama. Isipin mo na lang kung absolute ang pagka-merciful niya, ang gulo gulo siguro. Ang magiging reasoning ng tao, magnanakaw na lang ako, hindi na ako magtrabaho because God is merciful.

[majoe]

I am shocked that people actually believe the story of Adam and Eve.

+1

I can't believe that the genesis creation story is taken literally, and by a lot of people.

i find nothing wrong with this.
we call it "wisdom"

[majoe]

so comes my next question:


To those who believe the Adam and Eve story, do you believe in

1. literal six-day creation; and
2. the "Young Earth" theory which puts the Earth and all its creation at not more than 10,000 years ago?

ibang topic na nga ito bro

but to answer your question...

1. literal six day creation

   - i believe, but the word "day" in the translation shouldn't be treated as our 24 hour day today.
     the "day" in the genesis is a cycle of mornings and evenings which is around 756 million years.
     

2. the "Young Earth" theory which puts the Earth and all its creation at not more than 10,000 years ago?

   - i don't believe.  the 6 "day" creation is around 4.45 billion years according to my computation

[leomarley]

ibang topic na nga ito bro

but to answer your question...

1. literal six day creation

   - i believe, but the word "day" in the translation shouldn't be treated as our 24 hour day today.
     the "day" in the genesis is a cycle of mornings and evenings which is around 756 million years.
     

2. the "Young Earth" theory which puts the Earth and all its creation at not more than 10,000 years ago?

   - i don't believe.  the 6 "day" creation is around 4.45 billion years according to my computation

How did you arrive to the conclusion that 1 day = to 756 million years?

[majoe]

How did you arrive to the conclusion that 1 day = to 756 million years?

googled the age of the earth and divide it by 6, pero may mali pala. haha

eto pala, closest value based on my computation.

1 day =  758,557,606 yrs or ~ 758 million years

so..

6 days =  4,551,345,641 yrs or ~ 4.55 billion years which agrees to the known age of the earth.

how did i arrive with this?

the clue is on creation account itself and with the help of some scientific data.

[SiCkBoY]

Why don't you just explain it?

[leomarley]

googled the age of the earth and divide it by 6, pero may mali pala. haha

eto pala, closest value based on my computation.

1 day =  758,557,606 yrs or ~ 758 million years

so..

6 days =  4,551,345,641 yrs or ~ 4.55 billion years which agrees to the known age of the earth.

how did i arrive with this?

the clue is on creation account itself and some scientific data.

some scientific data? 

[dpogs]

stay on topic please... you can post them (not related to Trinity) in 'The Religion Thread'....

[dodie]

the reason why this thread has become peaceful until now is because religion has got nothing to do with the discussion but the personal beliefs of the members. If the personal beliefs are the same as one's religious beliefs, it is still the personal beliefs that are being discussed.

pag pumasok kasi ang particula religion, chances are gugulo na yan

i just wonder sir, does your personal belief differs from your religious affilation? hindi ko lang po mareconcile yung idea na may taong iba ang paniniwala ksa sa paniniwala ng kanyang sinapiang relihiyon. btw, i think  this thread is peaceful not because of religion taken away from the discussion but because we are decent enough to understand that we have different religious or personal beliefs that should be respected.

[jerix]

i just wonder sir, does your personal belief differs from your religious affilation? hindi ko lang po mareconcile yung idea na may taong iba ang paniniwala ksa sa paniniwala ng kanyang sinapiang relihiyon. btw, i think  this thread is peaceful not because of religion taken away from the discussion but because we are decent enough to understand that we have different religious or personal beliefs that should be respected.

+1000
This thread opened up a lot of thoughts for me. Di ko akalain, daming magagaling sa bible. So as long as it is connected to the topic keep on coming bros?

[Quitacet]

omg Tim Michin mention

I love this guy, and that is a brilliant, truthful quote.

hahahahaha. He's brilliant. "Thank you God"

[pTrader]

To all who believes:

If the Holy Trinity postulates 3 equal Gods which existed co-equally even prior to creation, and Jesus Christ, the God with flesh, is supposed to be God the son, then who was God the son before the birth of Christ?

Thanks to anybody who will respond.

who was God the son before the birth of Christ

Heb 1:8But about the Son he says,


“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;

a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
 
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;

therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions

by anointing you with the oil of joy.”e

10He also says,


“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,

and the heavens are the work of your hands.
 
11They will perish, but you remain;

they will all wear out like a garment.
 
12You will roll them up like a robe;

like a garment they will be changed.

But you remain the same,

and your years will never end.”f


He is the Son who is God and who is Lord.

[pTrader]

who was God the son before the birth of Christ

Further affirmation who was this Jesus before the birth of Christ.

Psalms 102:

23He has broken my strength in midcourse;
he has shortened my days.
 24“O my God,” I say, “take me not away
in the midst of my days—
you whose years endure
throughout all generations!”
25Of old you laid the foundation of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
 26They will perish, but you will remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away,
 27but you are the same, and your years have no end.
 28The children of your servants shall dwell secure;
their offspring shall be established before you.

Heb 1:

8But of the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
 9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
 
10And,

“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
 11they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment,
 12like a robe you will roll them up,
like a garment they will be changed.a
But you are the same,
and your years will have no end.”

He is the Son who is God and who is Lord.

[rexFi]

^ may shinare ako na Donya Santibanez meme sa FB regarding sa Heb 1:8 vs. Felix Manalo(screengrab sa FM movie with Dennis Trillo) hehe

Yung Trono pala ang interpretation ng INC na tinatawag na "Diyos" pala diyan eh noh?