Author Topic: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech  (Read 22020 times)

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Offline Klaus Weasley

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Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« on: Jan 12, 2015 at 11:24 PM »
With the recent conviction of Carlos Celdran and the shooting of cartoonists in the satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo, I would like to ask the board, where do they stand on blasphemy laws and whether or not they should exist in a free and democratic country that guarantees free speech.

Of course, it comes to no surprise that I think they should not exist. No one should HAVE to fear imprisonment if they criticize, mock or ridicule any idea or any person up to and including religion and God especially not in a democracy that guarantees freedom of speech.

Offline dodie

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Re: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« Reply #1 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 12:30 AM »
first of all you dont need to ask the board about their stand on the said issues. the fact that you can voice anything in the religion thread and lgbt thread shows that they are allowing us to have a free discussion with a little bit of moderation.

btw, carlos celdran exeeded the boundery of freedom of speech and he should take responsibility for his actions just like the charlie hebdo thing. criticizing is different from mocking or ridicule. you are learned enough to know their differences, i think. we are living in a cause and effect environment. what you say or do, eventually will have a direct implication of what you will be dealing later on in life.....the effect you'll be getting only has three options:
1) the offended party respects your tirade and be lenient to you even if you went beyond what is decent and reasonable......
2)you will end up in jail.......
3)you'll  end up dead.......

life is choice. life is about choices. choose wisely.
« Last Edit: Jan 13, 2015 at 01:25 AM by Dodie »
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Offline Klaus Weasley

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Re: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« Reply #2 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 01:43 AM »
What is "rude" and what is "decent" is very subjective. That's why we have FREE speech. No government or entity should threaten your life or freedom for what you say, no matter how offensive it is. If you are offended with what I say, you can ignore me, you can criticize/insult me back, you can sue me, you can have me fired, etc. But in a true democracy and in a real free society, one should not be afraid of death or imprisonment for expressing his or her ideas.

Freedom of speech actually does not protect "polite" speech. It protects offensive speech because it is the only way we can progress as a society. New ideas are often deemed "offensive". Criticizing/poking fun of public figures are also deemed "rude". Criticizing old, antiquated ideas is also considered by some to be "offensive". Can it go too far? Sure. But I think any excesses it may have can only solved by.....MORE free speech because free speech means FREE exchange of ideas without fear of being silenced by prison or death. If the most vile, disgusting forms of expression are protected then progressive ideas can flourish freely.

Religion -- ALL RELIGION -- like all ideas or philosophies -- is not and SHOULD not be exempted from criticism AND mocking and ridicule by the government. Period. 

Offline dpogs

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Re: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« Reply #3 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 01:52 AM »
"Homosexuality is sinful and abnormalism and in my opinion is a psychological disorder."

by just saying this out... puwede kang kasuhan ng discrimination :)...

In some state of US... you will be imprisoned just by voicing out your opinion against LGBT... but these LGBT supporters are allowed to mock, ridicule, criticize any relgion and their god as long as they want anytime, anywhere...

asking for freedom of speech and yet they are the one violating freedom of speech...

A pastor served 1 month prison time just by preaching that 'homosexuality is sinful' in his own church... where is the freedom of speech?

sa kaso ni Celdran... meron siyang right motive but wrong method... gawain ng tanga at ng bastos ang magprotesta sa loob mismo ng simbahan...

walang masama kung murahin man niya o yurakan pangalan  ko... huwag na huwag lang niya gagawin sa sarili kong pamamahay... may paglalagyan siya...

the same when voicing out your opinion... kung nasa tamang pag-iisip lang sana si beltran ng mga oras na iyon... di naman siya makukulong eh...

ang tamang salita diyan eh... tamang respeto at paggalang lang sa mga taong tahimik na nagwoworship sa loob ng simbahan... magprotesta kayo sa labas ng vicinity ng simbahan... walang bastusan...

what is "rude" and "decent": isa lang masasabi ko...
"mock me, ridicule me, criticize my opinion outside my house... not inside my house" :)
« Last Edit: Jan 13, 2015 at 01:55 AM by dpogs »
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Offline Klaus Weasley

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Re: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« Reply #4 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 02:37 AM »
"Homosexuality is sinful and abnormalism and in my opinion is a psychological disorder."

by just saying this out... puwede kang kasuhan ng discrimination :)...

In some state of US... you will be imprisoned just by voicing out your opinion against LGBT... but these LGBT supporters are allowed to mock, ridicule, criticize any relgion and their god as long as they want anytime, anywhere...

asking for freedom of speech and yet they are the one violating freedom of speech...

That is absolutely not true. You can get sued for defamation, sure but that's civil, not legal.

Also, discrimination is different from religious expression. You believe and say and express any idea you want but if you cross the boundary to DISCRIMINATION, ibang usapan na yan.

Quote
A pastor served 1 month prison time just by preaching that 'homosexuality is sinful' in his own church... where is the freedom of speech?


Can you provide the link to that piece of news? Mukhang gawa-gawa lang ng mga anti-gay websites yan ah. Either a.) not true; b.) half-true. It might be true that he was sent to jail but not for preaching against homosexuals.


Offline dpogs

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Re: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« Reply #5 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 03:31 AM »
its a statement and opinion regarding one's action... not to a particular person or individual...



you're saying that justifiable ang ginawa ni Celdran to stage a protest inside the church?

i am not against voicing out or expressing our own opinion... but to do it inside the church... i think he crossed the boundary of freedom of speech... :) magsusuot ako ng custome mocking someone's religion then papasok ako sa sarli nilang bahay sambahan at doon ako magsusumigaw... i really dont think gawain ng isang matinong tao ang ganyan... pambabastos ang tawag diyan...

eto tinatawag nating mga taong inaabuso ang tamang kahulugan ng "Freedom of Speech"...

same for LGBT... i have an opinion against homosexuality and i believe i have all the rights to voice out my own opinion regarding "homosexuality"... but honestly... i wont voice it out during their meetings, private meetings, seminars, celebrations... i wont stand in front of them holding a placard that i know will hurt their feelings... or go to the funeral of murdered transgender standing in front holding a placard "A Male".

you can't just go to someone's worship area and then declaring that what they believe is false... then you will invoke the rights or freedom of speech/expression...

kung ginawa niya iyon outside vicinity of the church... sasaludo ako sa kanya... eh pinairal ang katangahan at kahambugan eh... mabuti nga sa kanya makulong... walang respeto sa pagiging sacred ng worship service...
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline Klaus Weasley

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Re: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« Reply #6 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 10:35 AM »
its a statement and opinion regarding one's action... not to a particular person or individual...



you're saying that justifiable ang ginawa ni Celdran to stage a protest inside the church?

i am not against voicing out or expressing our own opinion... but to do it inside the church... i think he crossed the boundary of freedom of speech... :) magsusuot ako ng custome mocking someone's religion then papasok ako sa sarli nilang bahay sambahan at doon ako magsusumigaw... i really dont think gawain ng isang matinong tao ang ganyan... pambabastos ang tawag diyan...

eto tinatawag nating mga taong inaabuso ang tamang kahulugan ng "Freedom of Speech"...

They could just charge him with trespassing or even vandalism. Perhaps even just reprimanded him for being rude.

My quarrel with this is NOT that he was thrown in jail but that he was charged for "offending religious feelings" which sets a very dangerous precedent because this opens the gates to let anyone charge anyone with "offending religious feelings". The Catholic Church could charge an atheist blog criticizing them with "offending religious feelings". If we indeed have a law/loophole in the books concerning that, we should have it removed. It has no place in a democracy.

You say, "Well, there should be limits". I would argue, no there shouldn't be limits. As long as you're not hurting anyone, damaging other people's property or encroaching on other people's civil liberties, you should be free to express anything you like, no matter how offensive.

I personally find your opinions offensive. But if a gay atheist politician wants to throw you in jail for your PDVD posts, I will be defending you because you have a right to express your opinions and your views, no matter how abhorrent I personally think they are. (FYI: Bullying gay people and discriminating against them is NOT freedom of expression anymore. It's like you can be racist against black people and express racist opinions but you can't go around beating up and killing black people.)

Offline dpogs

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Re: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« Reply #7 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 12:06 PM »
"in a place devoted to religious worship or during the celebration of any religious ceremony shall perform acts notoriously offensive to the feelings of the faithful..."

blogs... magazine... press... articles... hindi covered ng article 133... if catholics wants to extend art.133 on this.. well magkabakat tayong ipaglalaban ang karapatan natin sa freedom of speech/expression... :)

we have freedom of religion... and that kind of act idiotic actions must be punished... how can we express our freedom of relgion if from time to time merong taong basta basta na lang sisigaw sa gitna ng kalagitnaan ng worship service sa loob ng aming simbhan...

and i believe every relligion in the Philippines must be protected from this kind of idiotic actions and arrogant person like Carlos Celdran...
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline tony

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Re: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« Reply #8 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 12:15 PM »
subukan mong sumigaw ng "sunog! sunog" or "may bombang sasabog dito!" sa loob ng isang crowded theater...
tign natin kung ano sasapitin mo.....

wrt the charlie hebdo, i think the punishment was too severe...death.....sobra yon million times over...
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline dodie

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Re: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« Reply #9 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 12:39 PM »
klause, i think your not getting the point.....nobody questions the way we express our critcism, its freedom of expression, right? gawin mo lang sa tamang lugar!! hindi lahat ng lugar eh pwede kang mambastos o manlaiit at sakaling maparusahan ka eh ikaw pa ang pipili ng gusto mong parusa sa iyo!

@ w/ regards to charlie hebdo, alam natin how the muslims reacts if you mock their religion or mocking their prophet. and those white people knew the implications and the possible backlash bec of their drawings....they went on to publish it, so expect something bad in return...

may kwento sa davao......
may isang drug pusher na nakulong at sinabihan daw ni mayor duterte na huwag na uli uulit pag nakalaya at bka mamatay lang sya. pagkalabas nya sa kulungan sya ay nagpatuloy pa uli sa kanyang pagtutulak ng droga. muli syang nahuli. at sa kanyang paglaya muli siya ay pinatay mga isang daang metro lang ang layo sa presinto na kung saan sya nangaling. sinabi ng mga kritiko na ito daw ay murder at si mayor duterte daw ang may kagagawan nito... ang sagot ni mayor, hindi ito murder kundi suicide kse alam nya na mamamatay sya pag nagtulak muli. eh nagtulak nga muli, kya nagpakamatay......
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Offline Nelson de Leon

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Re: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« Reply #10 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 12:48 PM »
Delikadesa.

Offline DVD_Freak

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Re: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« Reply #11 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 01:04 PM »
They could just charge him with trespassing or even vandalism. Perhaps even just reprimanded him for being rude.

My quarrel with this is NOT that he was thrown in jail but that he was charged for "offending religious feelings" which sets a very dangerous precedent because this opens the gates to let anyone charge anyone with "offending religious feelings". The Catholic Church could charge an atheist blog criticizing them with "offending religious feelings". If we indeed have a law/loophole in the books concerning that, we should have it removed. It has no place in a democracy.

You say, "Well, there should be limits". I would argue, no there shouldn't be limits. As long as you're not hurting anyone, damaging other people's property or encroaching on other people's civil liberties, you should be free to express anything you like, no matter how offensive.

I personally find your opinions offensive. But if a gay atheist politician wants to throw you in jail for your PDVD posts, I will be defending you because you have a right to express your opinions and your views, no matter how abhorrent I personally think they are. (FYI: Bullying gay people and discriminating against them is NOT freedom of expression anymore. It's like you can be racist against black people and express racist opinions but you can't go around beating up and killing black people.)


Simple lang naman ang assessment dyan di ba?  Did Celdran break any law?  He did.  Celdran was charged with violating Article 133 of the Revised Penal Code.  You may have your own opinion that the specific law is ludicrous.  But it is still a law.  And Celdran was found guilty of violating that law.  And when you break the law, you deserve to be thrown in jail.

Offline Klaus Weasley

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Re: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« Reply #12 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 01:08 PM »
@ w/ regards to charlie hebdo, alam natin how the muslims reacts if you mock their religion or mocking their prophet. and those white people knew the implications and the possible backlash bec of their drawings....they went on to publish it, so expect something bad in return...

It's still wrong to kill them. Period. Most Muslims probably dislike or were offended by the cartoons but most sane people will not gun them down. It's like blaming a woman for being raped if she dresses provocatively.

Quote
may kwento sa davao......
may isang drug pusher na nakulong at sinabihan daw ni mayor duterte na huwag na uli uulit pag nakalaya at bka mamatay lang sya. pagkalabas nya sa kulungan sya ay nagpatuloy pa uli sa kanyang pagtutulak ng droga. muli syang nahuli. at sa kanyang paglaya muli siya ay pinatay mga isang daang metro lang ang layo sa presinto na kung saan sya nangaling. sinabi ng mga kritiko na ito daw ay murder at si mayor duterte daw ang may kagagawan nito... ang sagot ni mayor, hindi ito murder kundi suicide kse alam nya na mamamatay sya pag nagtulak muli. eh nagtulak nga muli, kya nagpakamatay......

This is morally wrong. Did Duterte at least offer to find him an alternative way to make a living apart from drug pushing? Yes, may mga taong matigas ang ulo. But that does not give him the license to kill him.

If you think is in any way justified, your morals are really skewed.

Offline dodie

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Re: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« Reply #13 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 01:28 PM »
This is morally wrong

ngayon sir may morals ka na! saan nakabase yung morals mo sir?

how about having sex sith the same gender? iis it morally right for you to do it?
how about the mocking someone's religious belief? is it morally right for you to do it?
how about calling other people idiot if their opinion is not in parallel with yours? is it morally right  for you to do it?

you've just made my day :D :D :D
« Last Edit: Jan 13, 2015 at 01:28 PM by Dodie »
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Offline dodie

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Re: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« Reply #14 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 01:40 PM »
It's still wrong to kill them. Period.

what they did was wrong too and it was reciprocated by a more wrongful act...
pag gumawa ka ng mali wag kang umasa na susuklian ka ng kabutihan. always expect the worst in return. you cannot just open your mouth and start mocking people or group of people and tell them that if you harm me, its MORALLY WRONG! PERIOD. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Offline Klaus Weasley

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Re: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« Reply #15 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 02:46 PM »
what they did was wrong too and it was reciprocated by a more wrongful act...
pag gumawa ka ng mali wag kang umasa na susuklian ka ng kabutihan. always expect the worst in return. you cannot just open your mouth and start mocking people or group of people and tell them that if you harm me, its MORALLY WRONG! PERIOD. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

But again, that is wrong. We cannot live in fear that anything we say or write or draw could result in death or prison. If I criticize the government for their corruption, corrupt government officials will say that what I'm doing is offensive and they threaten to kill me. Is that right? Should I just shut up and not say or write anything? That's why free speech is important. We have to protect even offensive speech because "offensive" is subjective and if we start trying to decide what's appropriate and what's not appropriate, it's gonna open a can of worms where we legislate what we can say and write.

I'm not saying that we should not be responsible (you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater, you can't slander someone, etc.) but if we are to live in an open, free, progressive and mature society, there should always be freedom of speech, even offensive speech.

Kaya maraming journalists ang namamatay sa Pilipinas. Maraming tao ang may mindset na kagaya mo.

Offline dpogs

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Re: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« Reply #16 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 03:39 PM »
Eto na lang tanong ko sa iyo Klaus...

Kung ginawa ni Celdran iyong katangahan niya sa labas ng vicinity ng simbahan... sa tingin mo may kaso siya?
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline DVD_Freak

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Re: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« Reply #17 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 03:41 PM »
But again, that is wrong. We cannot live in fear that anything we say or write or draw could result in death or prison. If I criticize the government for their corruption, corrupt government officials will say that what I'm doing is offensive and they threaten to kill me. Is that right? Should I just shut up and not say or write anything? That's why free speech is important. We have to protect even offensive speech because "offensive" is subjective and if we start trying to decide what's appropriate and what's not appropriate, it's gonna open a can of worms where we legislate what we can say and write.

I'm not saying that we should not be responsible (you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater, you can't slander someone, etc.) but if we are to live in an open, free, progressive and mature society, there should always be freedom of speech, even offensive speech.

Kaya maraming journalists ang namamatay sa Pilipinas. Maraming tao ang may mindset na kagaya mo.

Well we also cannot say or start unfounded rumors or throw baseless accusation that are "actionable" whether in the form of offensive speech or criticism.  Free speech is never absolute. Free is not really free.  That is why we have libel and slander laws

Offline Klaus Weasley

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Re: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« Reply #18 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 05:15 PM »
Well we also cannot say or start unfounded rumors or throw baseless accusation that are "actionable" whether in the form of offensive speech or criticism.  Free speech is never absolute. Free is not really free.  That is why we have libel and slander laws

As I said, we should also be responsible. When I say free speech should be absolute, I mean, I absolutely free from any government sanctions or regulations whether fines, imprisonment or death. Free speech should NEVER, EVER be legislated or regulated. This also includes banning of books, films or any works of art.

Offline barrister

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Re: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« Reply #19 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 06:20 PM »
Free speech should NEVER, EVER be legislated or regulated. This also includes banning of books, films or any works of art.

Never, ever?  No limit whatsoever to free speech?

Including child pornography?
 

Offline Klaus Weasley

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Re: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« Reply #20 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 06:49 PM »

Including child pornography?
 

If it doesn't involve REAL children (because involving children in pornography is potentially harmful to their well-being, thereby crossing the line to harming another person's freedom and well-being), yes.

Offline barrister

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Re: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« Reply #21 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 06:59 PM »
Yes, real children, below 18 years old.

Two 17 year-old lovers in Cambodia (where the age of consent is 13) make their own sex video.  A Filipino purchases the video from them, and he wants to exhibit it in the Phils. at the movie houses in the malls.

Should it be allowed?
 
 
« Last Edit: Jan 13, 2015 at 07:06 PM by barrister »

Offline Klaus Weasley

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Re: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« Reply #22 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 07:15 PM »
Yes, real children, below 18 years old.

Two 17 year-old lovers in Cambodia (where the age of consent is 13) make their own sex video.  A Filipino purchases the video from them, and he wants to exhibit it at the movie houses at the malls.

Should it be allowed?
 

This is verging into the "age of consent" territory now which is a separate issue altogether. Personally, I think 16 should be the age of consent so TECHNICALLY, I would could care less about this as long as the teenage couple is also okay with it.

Offline barrister

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Re: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« Reply #23 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 07:56 PM »
This is verging into the "age of consent" territory now which is a separate issue altogether. Personally, I think 16 should be the age of consent so TECHNICALLY, I would could care less about this as long as the teenage couple is also okay with it.

 
In other words, you are ok with child pornography.  In the Phils., the age of consent is legally 18, and anyone who is below 18 is legally defined as a "child."

So it really doesn't matter what you think the age of consent should be. 
 
How about seditious speech.  On TV, the host encourages people to go to congress, and burn it while congress is in session, since they are all corrupt anyway.
 
Do you think that is covered by free speech?
« Last Edit: Jan 13, 2015 at 08:56 PM by barrister »

Offline zram18

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Re: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« Reply #24 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 08:23 PM »
i think this topic is highly contested and highly debatable, this could be an endless discussion...we need to define specifically the issue.

Offline barrister

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Re: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« Reply #25 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 08:53 PM »
 
That's what I'm trying to establish. 
 
Sir Klaus says free speech should be absolute, but I'm sure he will agree that there are some forms of speech which can be validly subjected to censorship.
 
After we agree that free speech is in fact not absolute, it is then that we will ultimately disagree on the extent of those limitations.
 
After that, we will just agree to disagree as to what those limitations should be.
 
Mas maayos ang kalalabasan, imbis na basta sabihin na kahit anong speech puwede.
« Last Edit: Jan 13, 2015 at 08:54 PM by barrister »

Offline leomarley

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Re: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« Reply #26 on: Jan 14, 2015 at 12:00 AM »
Well we also cannot say or start unfounded rumors or throw baseless accusation that are "actionable" whether in the form of offensive speech or criticism.  Free speech is never absolute. Free is not really free.  That is why we have libel and slander laws

that is bad if you're directing it towards a person. you shouldn't be criminalized for doing that to an idea.

Offline DVD_Freak

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Re: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« Reply #27 on: Jan 14, 2015 at 12:05 AM »
that is bad if you're directing it towards a person. you shouldn't be criminalized for doing that to an idea.

However Klaus wants absolute free speech.  So yes it does include directing it towards a person.

Offline dpogs

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Re: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« Reply #28 on: Jan 14, 2015 at 12:31 AM »
Eeverything must be in order and in their proper place... and if you can't follow simple instruction or be a subject to higher authorities... might as well build your own government free from anything... maybe in the government you will create there will be an absolute freedom of speech...


anyone can voice out their own opinion, can say whatever they want, but do it in a right place and in a right time...

Celdran... he did it in a wrong place and a wrong time... he must face the cosequences of his stupidity...
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline leomarley

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Re: Blasphemy Laws and Free Speech
« Reply #29 on: Jan 14, 2015 at 12:36 AM »
baka naman nadala lang siya sa usapan. from his example in his original post, he gave examples with regards to religion and we are in the Religion section. i think what he means is absolute free speech towards religion.