Author Topic: another noob question... (Read 5810 times)

Dollarman · « **on:** May 14, 2015 at 07:23 PM »

guys possible ba to make a pair of 18k to 30k speakers to sound almost like 80k ones just using better cables and accoustic treatments? just how important are accoustic treatments sa sq? will the expensive speakers still sound good with just a little treatment or dapat sagad sagad to bring out the speaker's potential?

rascal101 · « **Reply #1 on:** May 14, 2015 at 08:26 PM »

Hanggang magkano ba budget mo sa pag-upgrade na cable at acoustic treatment?

disturbed · « **Reply #2 on:** May 14, 2015 at 08:37 PM »

you can apply acoustic treatments sa critical area sir like reflection points..I bet you will hear improvement pero it depends pa din sa room kung panget tlga acoustically..

my take acoustic treatments > cables

mbtorn · « **Reply #3 on:** May 14, 2015 at 08:42 PM »

there are speakers that are 18k to 30k that sound more than their price but there are speakers that are 80k or more that sound like 18k to 30k....

Dollarman · « **Reply #4 on:** May 14, 2015 at 09:58 PM »

the reason i asked was i have a 18k pair of speakers that i was happy with but getting to audition two different pairs (a fs and bs) at 80k was like day and night...what made it confusing was the first pair was in a music room with just carpet and a sofa while the other one was in a treated room. both sounded good but the second one was very detailed.

my setup is located in the bedroom with the usual bed and cabinets thinking that was enought to cover the reflection points. i want to be sure if treating a room plays a big role in making a speaker sound good

disturbed · « **Reply #5 on:** May 15, 2015 at 01:14 PM »

if only you can bring your speakers to thattreated room and compare hehehe

oicnoreg · « **Reply #6 on:** May 18, 2015 at 10:52 AM »

Room acoustic treatment is very important for a 30k preowned bs speaker to sound like 80k one....btw, consider your music preference

oicnoreg · « **Reply #7 on:** May 18, 2015 at 10:53 AM »

Room acoustic treatment is very important for a 30k preowned bs speaker to sound like 80k one....btw, consider your music preference

Nelson de Leon · « **Reply #8 on:** May 18, 2015 at 01:15 PM »

Quote from: Dollarman on May 14, 2015 at 07:23 PM

guys possible ba to make a pair of 18k to 30k speakers to sound almost like 80k ones just using better cables and accoustic treatments? just how important are accoustic treatments sa sq? will the expensive speakers still sound good with just a little treatment or dapat sagad sagad to bring out the speaker's potential?

Quote from: Dollarman on May 14, 2015 at 09:58 PM

the reason i asked was i have a 18k pair of speakers that i was happy with but getting to audition two different pairs (a fs and bs) at 80k was like day and night...what made it confusing was the first pair was in a music room with just carpet and a sofa while the other one was in a treated room. both sounded good but the second one was very detailed.

my setup is located in the bedroom with the usual bed and cabinets thinking that was enought to cover the reflection points. i want to be sure if treating a room plays a big role in making a speaker sound good

My take:

Don't audition those expensive speakers. Haha!

On a serious note, may improvement naman sa speakers mo lalo na sa acoustic side. Pero there are still limitations. Yun sonic character na lang, iba na. You can go into details para ma-achieve mo pero overall, iba pa sila tumunog.

Timithekid · « **Reply #9 on:** May 18, 2015 at 02:09 PM »

I remember someones signature saying something like expensive speakers in a non acoustically treated room is like driving a ferrari on ice, that should, in a nutshell, highlight how important room acoustics is.

So all things being equal, it is almost safe to say that the more expensive one will outperform the cheaper. It is however highly possible to make 18K speakers in an acoustically treated room sound very much like 80k speakers in a non treated room.

And yes, cables may make a difference too, but quite honestly I've never been able to tell.

rascal101 · « **Reply #10 on:** May 18, 2015 at 03:40 PM »

Quote from: Timithekid on May 18, 2015 at 02:09 PM

I remember someones signature saying something like expensive speakers in a non acoustically treated room is like driving a ferrari on ice, that should, in a nutshell, highlight how important room acoustics is.

So all things being equal, it is almost safe to say that the more expensive one will outperform the cheaper. It is however highly possible to make 18K speakers in an acoustically treated room sound very much like 80k speakers in a non treated room.

And yes, cables may make a difference too, but quite honestly I've never been able to tell.

It is also possible that I highly treated room will reveal the shortcoming of the 18K speaker. That being said may lead to more tweaks eg cables, crossover etc.

meat_eater · « **Reply #11 on:** May 18, 2015 at 04:11 PM »

Quote from: Dollarman on May 14, 2015 at 07:23 PM

guys possible ba to make a pair of 18k to 30k speakers to sound almost like 80k ones just using better cables and accoustic treatments? just how important are accoustic treatments sa sq? will the expensive speakers still sound good with just a little treatment or dapat sagad sagad to bring out the speaker's potential?

Yes, and easy. Build 2 identical speakers and sell one for 18k and the other at 80k.

Seriously though....

The answer is yes or no. Simply because sound is subjective.

There is no point in comparing speakers from different price points on different systems, in different rooms, in their less than ideal configurations because the conditions are flawed to start with.

Also, there is such a thing as "system matching", one could use a mega expensive Wilson Alexandria and hook it to a 300B Set Amp on a really small room. Then compare it to a 4 in FR speaker on a proper box in the same room. Guess which sounds better? Chances are, it will be the cheaper and smaller FR. Now do the opposite and give the Wilson the power and space it needs, give the same amp and space to the 4 in FR... Chances are, you will prefer the Wilson.

As for proper acoustics, it's important to reproduce good SQ - regardless of the price of speakers.

timber715 · « **Reply #12 on:** May 18, 2015 at 06:24 PM »

18k to 30k speakers might sound the same as an 80k one but you might spend 100k on treatment... Maybe more. Hehehe.
Either save up to get what you want or get what the budget allows and enjoy what can be had. I was in the same situation before and like most I wanted a 30k speaker to sound like a million bucks. Did my study of what is available within my budget constraints. Then I heard what I wanted which was way out of my price range. Though what I wanted wasn't within my allowable budget at first, I wanted it enough to save up for it.

Dollarman · « **Reply #13 on:** May 22, 2015 at 12:31 AM »

salamat sa lahat sumagot, currently researching on room treatment, will pm you soon sir Nelson

ff up question lang, will sq be more or less the same within the same price range or mayron din difference sa sq assuming the speakers cost more or less the same and the speakers are driven by matched amps and sources. between a fs and bs that cost the same may difference din?

i am asking on the idea that manufacturers price their speakers on how good they perform hence similarly priced speakers should more or less have the same sq.

pasensya sa kakulitan but limited lang kasi ma audition dito kaya i rely on reviews and advices.

sientobente · « **Reply #14 on:** May 22, 2015 at 12:53 AM »

hi, what are those speakers? sometimes, with all the tweaks done, the limitation of the speaker will show up.

Timithekid · « **Reply #15 on:** May 22, 2015 at 01:03 AM »

Quote from: rascal101 on May 18, 2015 at 03:40 PM

It is also possible that I highly treated room will reveal the shortcoming of the 18K speaker.

Very much possible, but at least you got the most out of that speaker. The room treatment will always help, I think that is a safe enough assumption, if it brings out the limitation of the speaker, then other factors now come into play.

mbtorn · « **Reply #16 on:** May 22, 2015 at 01:04 AM »

Speakers will definitely have different sq even within their price range. difference in sq can be due to difference in tweeters, drivers, crossovers, enclosures and other components' designs, materials used, etc. plus there are myriad of other factors that will affect the sq of speakers.

Effect of having room treatments is a given but they must be properly positioned and correctly implemented to further enhance the sq of your speakers. Will expensive room treatments have better effect on sq than least expensive treatment such as diy room treatments? That's another matter altogether and debatable.

timber715 · « **Reply #17 on:** May 22, 2015 at 01:41 AM »

Speakers are designed vastly in different concepts and sound qualities. In a certain price range you can find one that is either neutral, harsh or one that is warm depending on the designer. And then there is the driver (actual speaker) design, they too come in many shapes and constructed in different materials (like paper to kevlar) and some even have a different way of constructing the cone for their drivers (thicker or thinner in several areas) oh the is also the moving coil and magnet size.. As you can see the complexity for two different speakers to have the same sq and timbre. Almost forgot how enclosures are designed...
Matching other gears with the speaker is another complexity best tried or by following tested combinations.
So what fits your budget and preference best? It is up to you.
I considered buying my system an investment. And the best way to invest in this situation is to get recommendations and listen to them personally. Afterall, we all have different preferences.

Dollarman · « **Reply #18 on:** May 22, 2015 at 03:02 AM »

wow hirap pala mag setup without auditioning the speakers....my work doesnt give me the chance to go there to audition kaya i have to base it on reviews and personal experience of owners..

salamat sa mga input guys.

Timithekid · « **Reply #19 on:** May 22, 2015 at 05:46 AM »

Quote from: Dollarman on May 22, 2015 at 03:02 AM

wow hirap pala mag setup without auditioning the speakers....my work doesnt give me the chance to go there to audition kaya i have to base it on reviews and personal experience of owners..

salamat sa mga input guys.

Thats a scary situation for you because you preference may not be the same as those who give you reviews, no matter how honest they are or how accurate they can describe the sound.

At the end of the day what may be pleasing to their ears may not be to yours, and since its you who will be enjoying the music, then the only opinion that should matter is yours.

pchin · « **Reply #20 on:** May 22, 2015 at 06:48 AM »

Quote from: Timithekid on May 22, 2015 at 05:46 AM

Thats a scary situation for you because you preference may not be the same as those who give you reviews, no matter how honest they are or how accurate they can describe the sound.

At the end of the day what may be pleasing to their ears may not be to yours, and since its you who will be enjoying the music, then the only opinion that should matter is yours.

+1. Investing in a good set of speakers within the realm of your budget is indeed a daunting task!

It will require lots of research, comparing various available models/specs, conducting interviews, audition, Q&A, checking your wallets, seeking your wife or GF approval, more auditions, etc

tony · « **Reply #21 on:** May 22, 2015 at 07:00 AM »

Quote from: Dollarman on May 14, 2015 at 07:23 PM

guys possible ba to make a pair of 18k to 30k speakers to sound almost like 80k ones just using better cables and accoustic treatments? just how important are accoustic treatments sa sq? will the expensive speakers still sound good with just a little treatment or dapat sagad sagad to bring out the speaker's potential?

yes of course if that is what you want, touch bases with diymaster he is the best person who can help you...

junji · « **Reply #22 on:** May 22, 2015 at 12:07 PM »

What speakers are available there in your place na target mo? Para more or less others can give their own opinion na rin on what to expect wether those are neutral, harsh or warm. Will depend pa rin on what amp you used for the bottom line output. Kaya kailangan talagang ma-audition kasi baka ok sa iba yung signature pero hindi naman sa 'yo.

Dollarman · « **Reply #23 on:** May 22, 2015 at 12:39 PM »

speakers available here are polks, b&w, harbeth and nola speakers.

the polks are rtia3s i have in an untreated room (ht use). was able to audition polk tsi series and b&w 684 at a store here. while the Nola speakers at ferdie ludo's. ang ganda ng tugtog ng Nola in a treated room hence my question on room treatments and its contribution to total sq.

dodie · « **Reply #24 on:** May 22, 2015 at 01:28 PM »

pag galing kay ferds, ayos yan boss! harbeth na lang!

yung 30k bs mo, pag may treatment bka nga tumunog ng 80k! yung 80k bs mo malamang maging 200k naman pag may treatment! hehehehe

pero ako ang gusto ko xavian xn270

ska paper cone drivers....

jh@meeh · « **Reply #25 on:** May 22, 2015 at 01:46 PM »

^ boss dodie the witcher

@dollarman

Brader habang hinahanap mo yung gusto mong tunog, habang hinahanap mo yung full capability ng speaker mo, lalong mababanat ang capability ng wallet mo

...sa bandang huli, hindi lang speaker at treatment ang consideration mo. Masasama na rin ang cable, linear power supply etc..you name it

...just be open to all "nirvana possibilities"

muypogi · « **Reply #26 on:** May 22, 2015 at 04:16 PM »

Quote from: Dollarman on May 14, 2015 at 07:23 PM

guys possible ba to make a pair of 18k to 30k speakers to sound almost like 80k ones just using better cables and accoustic treatments? just how important are accoustic treatments sa sq? will the expensive speakers still sound good with just a little treatment or dapat sagad sagad to bring out the speaker's potential?

Coming from my own experience, no, not really.

Coming from my first Diamond 9.1 pair to my current setup, I can reasonably say you do get what you pay for as you go up the ladder. But at a certain price point, you begin to hit diminishing returns in terms of price-performance ratio.

Though as they say, system matching and proper placement are key. You don't need to go all out. Sometimes placement lang ok na.

I'd advise getting your speakers first, then tailor fit the system around it. Audition and know the sound you prefer. Pwede super detailed (makalansing yung highs), warm (bilog yung tunog) bass-heavy (tugs-tugs-tugs type) neutral. . .

Consider your listening area. Kung maliit, choose speakers that perform well nearfield and sound good in moderate volumes. Harbeths sound very well nearfield. Dynaudios, for example, need volume and space to breathe.

As a rule, you need more space for floostanders and big bookshelf speakers. Small bookshelves excel in soundstage and imaging but lack low-end oomph.

DIY speakers are fine, but depending on the maker, and even the purpose of the speaker, you will probably be hit with a significant decline in resell value vs established brands.

timber715 · « **Reply #27 on:** May 23, 2015 at 03:24 AM »

Quote from: Dollarman on May 22, 2015 at 12:39 PM

speakers available here are polks, b&w, harbeth and nola speakers.

the polks are rtia3s i have in an untreated room (ht use). was able to audition polk tsi series and b&w 684 at a store here. while the Nola speakers at ferdie ludo's. ang ganda ng tugtog ng Nola in a treated room hence my question on room treatments and its contribution to total sq.

I believe even if you get the whole system that sounds very good in the showroom will it come out the same in your room. That is the joy of the audio journey though to some it is the trouble...

pchin · « **Reply #28 on:** May 23, 2015 at 07:51 AM »

Acoustic treatment is important too. There are many available easy-to-install acoustic panels/foams in the market that you can select. Since you already have the speakers, your room treatment could be your next project that is certainly worth investing. Even cheap speakers can certainly sound much better in a treated room.

synchro_01 · « **Reply #29 on:** May 23, 2015 at 09:53 PM »

Quote from: Dollarman on May 22, 2015 at 12:39 PM

speakers available here are polks, b&w, harbeth and nola speakers.

the polks are rtia3s i have in an untreated room (ht use). was able to audition polk tsi series and b&w 684 at a store here. while the Nola speakers at ferdie ludo's. ang ganda ng tugtog ng Nola in a treated room hence my question on room treatments and its contribution to total sq.

Were you able to audition the Nola speakers in the main listening room of Ferdie? The acoustic treatments alone in that room can reach the price of a brand new car. The room itself was designed from the ground up to house an audio system. Couple that with the electronics that I assume are Class A rated. The synergy of the entire set up is what you heard and not the speaker alone.

cheap speakers will not automatically sound great in a well treated room. It would be downright foolish to spend 400K on a room and use speakers that are on the 10K level. Yes one may bring up the performance level a tad higher however it still has performance limitations that no treatment will ever solve. An example is bass articulation and extension.