Author Topic: CD Player  (Read 176095 times)

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Offline alexg

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CD Player
« on: Feb 24, 2004 at 02:24 PM »
I am looking for a new CD player, in the 15K range. My current player is an old Sony CD player. I know I have to upgrade when my Pioneer 655A (universal player) sounded better than my CD player when playing music CD's. It will be connected to an Onkyo receiver/Denon 1804.

Any recommedation? (I have been looking at the Marantz and Denon CD players).
I went fishing the other day, and I caught a BIG ONE!

Offline av_phile1

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Re:CD Player
« Reply #1 on: Feb 24, 2004 at 03:07 PM »
You may want to check out Spectra at Park Square.  If i recall right the NAD CD player they carry might hover at the top of your budget.  Forgot the model number though.  But i think they're current.

Offline Superman

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Re:CD Player
« Reply #2 on: Feb 24, 2004 at 03:11 PM »
You may want to check out Spectra at Park Square.  If i recall right the NAD CD player they carry might hover at the top of your budget.  Forgot the model number though.  But i think they're current.


bro...try the NAD C542 CD player with HDCD decoding...thanks! 8)
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Offline cousin skeeter

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Re:CD Player
« Reply #3 on: Feb 24, 2004 at 03:59 PM »
your budget is just right for the rotel rcd-971 being sold at the assrt buy and sell thread by carlos888. also, why not post "WTB: CD Player" there. am pretty sure youll get lots of offers :)

Offline ZEPHYR

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Re:CD Player
« Reply #4 on: Feb 26, 2004 at 12:19 AM »
Hi anyone here heard of an shop called LOCK AUDIO.  ::)

I got this ad from MB about someone selling audio gears. Got the cell number listed there and inquired thru text regarding cd players. A guy texted back and stated na marami raw siyang audio gears for sale, may cd players daw cya dun na rotel model RCD02 at 17K and RCD961 at 18K naman. etc.

So has anyone been to this shop or has bought something from LOCK AUDIO. His shop daw is located at San Antonio Village in Pasig City.  

Thanks :)

Offline cousin skeeter

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CD Player Discussions
« Reply #5 on: Apr 02, 2004 at 10:35 AM »
peeps,

didnt know where to post these queries so made a separate thread instead. anyway, ive several few questions that have been bugging me for quite a while concerning cd players. am hoping someone can clear em up for me.

1) why do some players have dual dacs? whats the advantage/disadvantage to players using only one dac.

2) ive seen players touting 24-bit dacs (nad) yet some only 1-bit dac (some pioneer cdps ive seen) or am i comparing apples to oranges here. whats the difference? what advantage does a cdp having higher dac specs have over that with lower dac specs, 24 bit compared to 18 bit?

3) whats oversampling? is it the number of times the cdp reads the cd to make sure it read the cd right?

4) whats jitter? i used to think that jitter has got something to do with the motor of a cdp not being stable (sorry for my ignorance  ;D )

5) why are burr-brown dacs highly sought after?

6) in many discussion groups ive seen, a lot of audio enthusiasts are saying that the most important part of the cdp is the power supply. i thought since cdps have relatively low power consumption (compared to amps and receivers), its power source shouldnt be a factor in the quality of its sound.

sorry if i sound ignorant. id like to upgrade my cdp to a really good one by the end of the year and would like to be as informed as i can be before making my decision.

thanks and more power to pdvd!

Offline av_phile1

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Re:CD Player Discussions
« Reply #6 on: Apr 02, 2004 at 04:16 PM »
Here's my layman's understanding of the issues raised.  Could be wrong and anyone's welcome to correct them.


1) why do some players have dual dacs? whats the advantage/disadvantage to players using only one dac.


The datastream retrieved from a CD consists of both left and right information  plus a lot of error-correction and redundant data to make sure that the data is complete prior to waveform shaping in the conversion process.  It is arguable if two DACs are better than one.  But let me just say that I don't see any problem having dedicated DACs for each channel in the debatable interest to improve channel separation in the analog stages.  

Quote

2) ive seen players touting 24-bit dacs (nad) yet some only 1-bit dac (some pioneer cdps ive seen) or am i comparing apples to oranges here. whats the difference? what advantage does a cdp having higher dac specs have over that with lower dac specs, 24 bit compared to 18 bit?


Entire books can be dedicated to this topic.  The standard redbook CD  is encoded in 16-bit  regardless of which resolution was used in capturing the live performance.  

Cd players start with 16-bit decoding and can upsample to 18-bit, 20-bit or 24-bit or even 32-bit prior to analg conversion.  For me, this upsampling does nothing to improve upon the original performance, but does impart some discernible quality to the analog shaping that for some people. are superior to 16-bit.

OTH, 1-bit decoding exhibit some inherent noise that many audiophiles find objectionable.  The algorthm decimates the 16-bit word lengths to generate single bitstream data and is buffered prior to analog conversion.  This is the percursor of the DSD 1-bit resolution of SACD players, but, because the new technology does so at 2.83 Mhz, the resulting bitstream is said to be far superior than the 1-bit datastream used for CD decoding.

Quote

3) whats oversampling? is it the number of times the cdp reads the cd to make sure it read the cd right?

 

Yup.  This technique (say, 8x the original sampling rate of 44.1Khz or 352.8Khz)  is used to spread the quantization noise to a large set of samples often putting them totally outside of the Nyquist frequency limit of 22Khz.  It also eases the anit-aliasing post-DAC filtering to make them work more smoothly

Quote

4) whats jitter? i used to think that jitter has got something to do with the motor of a cdp not being stable (sorry for my ignorance  ;D )

Again, an entire book can be dedicated to this topic.

This is the digital equivalent of wow and flutter in analog devices.  It is a time-domain problem exhibited when the resolving DAC in not in synch with the arriving datastream so that it sees a 0 instead of a 1 or vice versa and shapes the analog waveform erroneously.  Digital error in the time domain manifests as amplitude errors in the analog  waveform with a net effect of raising the noise floor or decreasing the S/N ratio so that certain musical details and subtleties are masked or lost.  

Quote

5) why are burr-brown dacs highly sought after?


I guess because Burr-Brown happens to be a pioneer in the industry with proven track in so far as hi-fi DACs are concerned.  But that doesn't preclude other manufacturers from similar qualities like motorola, Cyrix, AKD, etc.

Quote

6) in many discussion groups ive seen, a lot of audio enthusiasts are saying that the most important part of the cdp is the power supply. i thought since cdps have relatively low power consumption (compared to amps and receivers), its power source shouldnt be a factor in the quality of its sound.


This is a design philosophy different brands adopt to come out with arguably better sounding CDPs.  It has nothing to do with power delivered in the same way they do with power amps.  I think having a cleaner power supply or dedicated power supplies for transport and electronics can make some difference in attaining the best S/N ratio and channel separation.  

« Last Edit: Apr 02, 2004 at 04:17 PM by av_phile1 »

Offline cousin skeeter

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Re:CD Player Discussions
« Reply #7 on: Apr 03, 2004 at 11:29 AM »
very comprehensive answers. thanks av_phile! you cleared up a lot things for me. although many argue that its the sound that matters and not the specs, i think its always good to know these things.

thanks again!

Offline odyopayl

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CD-Player Any difference?
« Reply #8 on: Apr 27, 2004 at 03:33 PM »
I have Usher CD-100 CD player, anybody who have Shanling CD-S100 or Music Hall MMF-25 CD player They have exactly the same package are they sounds the same? I used to have Shanling CD-100 I regret that I let my brother take it to France. Anybody who have the player other that Usher I will let anybody to audition it and compare apple to apple just to know any audible difference

Sorry I can't insert pictures of the three, I'm trying but i failed. ???
odyopayl
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Offline kaffee1

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Re: CD-Player Any difference?
« Reply #9 on: Apr 27, 2004 at 08:42 PM »
Posting picture
USHER cd100
Readme1|2[/u]

Offline kaffee1

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Re: CD-Player Any difference?
« Reply #10 on: Apr 27, 2004 at 08:47 PM »
Posting for odyopyle, modifying image sizes Ü
SHANLING CDS-100
FRONT
REAR

Music Hall MMF-25 CD player
FRONT
REAR
REMOTE
« Last Edit: Apr 28, 2004 at 07:53 PM by kaffee1 »
Readme1|2[/u]

Offline dogearz

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Re: CD-Player Any difference?
« Reply #11 on: Apr 27, 2004 at 08:58 PM »
Pambihira  :o
I'll be watching this thread  8)

Offline av_phile1

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Re: CD Player Discussions
« Reply #12 on: Apr 30, 2004 at 01:38 PM »
It's perfectly possible that because these brands come from hand-made cottage-industry type boutique that do not benefit from the extensive vertically-integrated facilities of mass produced brands to make their own parts,  they could have used the same OEM for their chassis and front panels.  Even internal CD mechanism and electronics, perhaps.  Theta, a known boutique brand with highly specialized hand built products, has a DVD player that uses an entire Pioneer DVD player' innards, lock stock and barrel, but housed in a more heavy chassis. 

Offline krets pulpol

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Re: CD Player Discussions
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2004 at 10:53 AM »
i read from another thread, available na pala arcam cd73 dito

and arcam's latest models do not use Burr Brown DAC chips nowadays, they're using Wolfson Microelectronics!


whooooaaaaa  :o    ;D
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Offline av_phile1

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Re: CD Player Discussions
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2004 at 11:19 AM »
Is there really such a thing as a superior DAC chip in CD players?   I am of the impression they're all the same in decoding the 0s and 1s and shaping the analog waveforms from them.  A DAC CANNOT shape the waveform if the digital information is NOT complete and error-corrected to begin with.  It's the brickwall filter and the Op-amps after the DAC that determines the sonic character.  Do enlighten as I too am in the market for a really good but affordable CD-only player.

Offline audi0slave

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Re: CD Player Discussions
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2004 at 11:59 AM »
yeap, the Arcam CD73 is now available @ Hyperaudio's shop.



they say that the Wolfson Microelectronics 24-bit DAC chip is an improvement over the widely used Burr-Brown DAC.

The remarkable WM8740 multi bit sigma delta DAC from Wolfson Microelectronics is said to have the lowest noise and distortion figures. I have personally auditioned the CD Player and Arcam truly lives up to its name as a leading manufacturer of high performance CD Players. The sound quality is kinda "laid back" compared to that of Rotels and NADs.... and I must admit, the Arcam CD73 trashes my NAD C542 or even the Exposure 2010 and the Rotel's RCD-1070 and RCD-02.... of course, with a caveat that my views are based on my listening criteria only.

 ;D :o
« Last Edit: May 04, 2004 at 12:03 PM by audioslave »

Offline Philander

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Re: CD Player Discussions
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2004 at 12:27 PM »
yeap, the Arcam CD73 is now available @ Hyperaudio's shop.
and I must admit, the Arcam CD73 trashes my NAD C542 or even the Exposure 2010 and the Rotel's RCD-1070 and RCD-02.... of course, with a caveat that my views are based on my listening criteria only.

 ;D :o

Ganun.... Does this Arcam Cd player supports HDCD, what is the price range of this CD player.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2004 at 12:36 PM by Philander »

Offline krets pulpol

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Re: CD Player Discussions
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2004 at 01:34 PM »
i think so avphile, there are superior DACs used in cd players.  it varies with their upsampling capabilities for the lowest noise and distortion levels.  in practical terms, all DACs will do the job in convertions of digital to analog but the outcome will be different.  it is how these modified DACs reduce the noise and distortion levels in the end that will make the difference.  audiophile grade components make a difference in this world of hi-fi madness.  ;)

power supply also comes into play as an important role in having a good sounding cd player.  these high-end players offer toroidal transformers.

hahaha as i told you before audioslave, these babies are a notch higher than the nads and rotels even in integrated amps. 

my bet will be on this cd73 or for cd player category or cd93 if i'm able
on the integrated amp, i'll go for the ra-1062 of rotel anytime

cheers everyone  8)
what?! are you talkin' to me!!!

Offline audi0slave

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Re: CD Player Discussions
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2004 at 11:03 AM »


Ganun.... Does this Arcam Cd player supports HDCD, what is the price range of this CD player.

like the Rotels, all Arcam CD Players are HDCD capable. the CD93 even have an Upsampling MultiDAC Module, with an Analog Devices asynchronous sample rate converter used to upsample the 16 bit 44.1 kHz CD data to 24 bit 192 kHz data. Although this cannot add new information to that already on the CD, this technique allows much gentler filters to be used downstream with a remarkable improvement in sound quality.

These models (CD73, CD83 and CD93) are likewise CD text capable.

 :-* :P

Offline krets pulpol

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Re: CD Player Discussions
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2004 at 12:06 PM »
right on audioslave!  :D

conversion systems
cd73 - wolfson wm8740, multi level delta sigma
cd82 - dual mono wolfson wm8740s
cd93 - upsampling DAC, 4 x wolfson wm8740s  whooooooaaa  :o  ;D

i bet these arcams can rival the musical fidelity players, imo  ;)
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Offline odyopayl

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Re: CD Player Discussions
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2004 at 05:12 PM »
Maybe, we need to hear them side by side. Which is better DAC from Wolfson Microelectronics or DAC from Burr-brown?
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Offline av_phile1

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Re: CD Player Discussions
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2004 at 05:29 PM »
I think I've come across some fora with heated arguments on the credibility of various DAC configurations to arrive at their dubious claims of sonic superiority.  Even the concept of oversampling and upsampling have come under fire.  I am more inclined to believe that the filters and op-amps have more to say in arriving at the various sonic traits than good DACs do.  And most agree that HDCD players do exhibit better analog sonics precisely because they have a more precise and sophisticated digital  filtering circuit that benefit even ordinary CDs as well.  That is also my compelling reason why I am in the market for HDCD players. But, as usual, don't let my irreverent views get in the way.

Offline krets pulpol

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Re: CD Player Discussions
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2004 at 08:14 PM »
for me, i wouldn't notice any significant differences among these converters whether Burr Brown or Wolfson Microelectronics unless i'm an audiophile junkie with a sonar-like ears who can detect some seismic anomalies hahaha. so long as the cd player can produce music with great fidelity, i'm happy with it.  you wouldn't listen to vocals and instrumental cds all year round, would you?!?! hehehe

 O0

 
what?! are you talkin' to me!!!

Offline av_phile1

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Re: CD Player Discussions
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2004 at 08:46 PM »


like the Rotels, all Arcam CD Players are HDCD capable. the CD93 even have an Upsampling MultiDAC Module, with an Analog Devices asynchronous sample rate converter used to upsample the 16 bit 44.1 kHz CD data to 24 bit 192 kHz data. Although this cannot add new information to that already on the CD, this technique allows much gentler filters to be used downstream with a remarkable improvement in sound quality.

These models (CD73, CD83 and CD93) are likewise CD text capable.

 :-* :P

I'm no avid believer of all those DACs wherever they come from, but I sure would like to own an HDCD player with CD text ability.   ;D  That's one upmanship over the Rotel and Nad, right?  How much?

Offline audi0slave

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Re: CD Player Discussions
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2004 at 02:37 PM »
right on audioslave!  :D

conversion systems
cd73 - wolfson wm8740, multi level delta sigma
cd82 - dual mono wolfson wm8740s
cd93 - upsampling DAC, 4 x wolfson wm8740s  whooooooaaa  :o  ;D

i bet these arcams can rival the musical fidelity players, imo  ;)

Certainly, the new generation Arcam CDPs (DiVA & Full Metal Jacket Series) can outshine the Musical Fidelity CDPs. The MF CDPs sonic character maybe described as lifeless, clean and uninvolving machines which are not commensurate to their high end prices. The Rotels (RCD-02 model and above) and the NADs (C542 and above) are much better by a hairline, i guess ......... he he he ..... but that's only me speaking.... though I'm sure a lot of you share my views.... ;D ;D ;D

Offline Superman

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Re: CD Player Discussions
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2004 at 02:49 PM »


I'm no avid believer of all those DACs wherever they come from, but I sure would like to own an HDCD player with CD text ability.   ;D  That's one upmanship over the Rotel and Nad, right?  How much?

bro. av_phile,

probably one alternative also is the exposure 2010...thanks! 8)
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Offline audi0slave

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Re: CD Player Discussions
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2004 at 03:09 PM »
for me, i wouldn't notice any significant differences among these converters whether Burr Brown or Wolfson Microelectronics unless i'm an audiophile junkie with a sonar-like ears who can detect some seismic anomalies hahaha. so long as the cd player can produce music with great fidelity, i'm happy with it.  you wouldn't listen to vocals and instrumental cds all year round, would you?!?! hehehe

 O0

 

like speakers and amps, i think the cdps can impart the most recognizable and cognisable sonic differences in an audio sytem. if you can readily tell the sonic signature of a particular brand of cables and interconnects, with much more reason you can easily tell and distinguish the sonic quality of a certain brand of a CDP. one doesn't need to have a "golden ear" in order to detect some differences between CDPs. moreso, if you'll listen to them side by side   ;)  ;D ;D

Offline odyopayl

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Re: CD Player Discussions
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2004 at 05:27 PM »
Anybody want to try apple to apple comparison on it's class? 24/96 solid state CD player, I'm willing to offer my USHER CD-100 over:
- Exposure
-ARCAM CD73
-Rotel RCD-02 etc.
Just to know any difference lang for our reference.
odyopayl
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Offline audi0slave

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Re: CD Player Discussions
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2004 at 11:27 AM »
odyopayl,

that's nice bro. perhaps we can schedule some sort of a shoot out in the future. hanap muna tayo ng ibang owners ng cdps na ka-level ng Usher CDP mo. I know the NAD C542 is a step down model compared to your Usher CD-100 but i can join the A-B comparison if you and the others won't mind.

any owners of CDPs out there who may want to join the shoot out?


 ::) :P ;D

Offline bruno

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Re: CD Player Discussions
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2004 at 08:21 PM »
Pwede ba isali ang modified Pioneer cdp ko?