Author Topic: Speaker DIY'ers  (Read 306551 times)

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Offline remington

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1110 on: Aug 31, 2014 at 04:14 PM »
I hate to break this to you bro but science & math are the foundations of this entire hi-fi hullabaloo  ;) The concept, topology, implementation etc involved in designing an audio product are based on these foundations. If there was no science involved in building your speakers then you really defied the odds...as well as the entire concept of audio design hehehe But if you're happy with the results then I'm happy for you. cheers!

yup you are right about that, but in this build I did not consult nor use any of those calculators and simulators that you are asking, this is built on just pure instinct and so far the outcome for me is quite nice. I have heared diy boxes made by other builders who based their builds on those formulas but not in general huh dont get me wrong ;D and infact purchased some , but for me maraming kulang sa tunog. I have tried to tweaked it but kulang pa din, so if you will ask me   
between instinct and formulas I would rather choose instinct para wala kang sisisihing formula kung palpak hehehe! but thats just me and not in general ;) ;D
« Last Edit: Aug 31, 2014 at 04:17 PM by remington »
tube + audio nirvana = beyond...

Offline JojoD818

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1111 on: Aug 31, 2014 at 05:12 PM »
Amar Bose and Matthew Polk in the making... congrats!


Offline camoteque

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1112 on: Aug 31, 2014 at 06:06 PM »
Amar Bose and Matthew Polk in the making... congrats!


Actually Bose nga nasa isip ko kasi ang concept parang direct reflecting eh. Or Duevel planets na omnidirectional. But Remington is right na kung saan ka masaya yun importante kasi most of the time ang owner naman ang makikinig sa sariling system nya.

Anyway, congrats to the owner!

Offline JojoD818

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1113 on: Aug 31, 2014 at 07:28 PM »
Actually Bose nga nasa isip ko kasi ang concept parang direct reflecting eh. Or Duevel planets na omnidirectional. But Remington is right na kung saan ka masaya yun importante kasi most of the time ang owner naman ang makikinig sa sariling system nya.

Anyway, congrats to the owner!




Yun ang concept ni Bose, direct-reflective with a dash of phase angle alignment. Oo naman, totally agree tayo diyan. Home is where the heart is.

Online tony

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1114 on: Sep 01, 2014 at 07:10 AM »
i am thinking of a 3 way sytem, i will also not use formulas and calculators,
even with the passive cross-overs, everything by ear....;)
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline audiojunkie

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1115 on: Sep 01, 2014 at 11:01 AM »
I'm now at finishing stage of 4 way dipole, X-over by calculations only to get parts value, used SPL meter to balance driver's output levels and other tuning all by air (ear).

Here's a pic...



It's at temporary location while work is in progress, base will be added to mount the spike.
« Last Edit: Sep 01, 2014 at 11:22 AM by audiojunkie »
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Offline JojoD818

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1116 on: Sep 01, 2014 at 03:15 PM »
susmaryosep! yan ang crossover! 8)

thumbsup!

Offline camoteque

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1117 on: Sep 01, 2014 at 07:33 PM »
I'm now at finishing stage of 4 way dipole, X-over by calculations only to get parts value, used SPL meter to balance driver's output levels and other tuning all by air (ear).

Here's a pic...



It's at temporary location while work is in progress, base will be added to mount the spike.

Grabeng crossover yan brother! Ang ganda ng execution. You need plenty of amplifier power to run those speakers. How's the SQ?

IMO, one still needs to use calculators/formulas in xover design especially for us beginners to get to the nearest values and so to make life easier. Then change values little by little to get to the desired performance as you tune by ear. Sayang naman ang science di ba kung di pakinabangan. Isa pa, ok lang kung napakarami mong stash ng capacitors, resistors, and inductors na naipon through the years. Kung hindi napakagastos gumawa ng xover sa pageexperiment. One time, we made passive 3-way xover using solen flat coil inductors and boutique capacitors (and even added transformer attenuators)for a 3-way horn system. Cost me about P20k for a pair of xovers alone. What if di maganda tunog sa una mo pa lang try. Di lumalaki ang gastos.

Picture of the said xover and horn speaker.


Sir Tony walang problema sa yo yang paggawa ng xover. Tatawanan mo lang yan!


Online tony

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1118 on: Sep 01, 2014 at 07:47 PM »
si Ed Paman nga pala Larry ang expert sa mga cross-overs....
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline JojoD818

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1119 on: Sep 01, 2014 at 08:21 PM »
kaya madami builders ayaw ng multi-drivers dahil sa crossover design - second lang yun losses ang reason. it's easily a cause for a make or break in a multi-driver design.

noon, basta lagyan lang ng capacitor yun pt-6 tofutofu na... di na naisip yun attenuation at integration. ;D


Offline deist

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1120 on: Sep 01, 2014 at 08:58 PM »
Beautiful! this is one hell of a project, kudos to you sir  O0

If you don't mind, can you share with us the details like; drivers used & implementation, crossover settings etc. I assume the top 3 drivers are OB? TIA.

I'm now at finishing stage of 4
« Last Edit: Sep 01, 2014 at 09:07 PM by deist »

Offline deist

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1121 on: Sep 01, 2014 at 09:03 PM »
I agree with this statement by sir Larry.

There's this saying in the visual arts world to which I live by; "Follow the rules, learn the basics and when you have mastered both, BREAK THEM! Then create your own style."

IMO, one still needs to use calculators/formulas in xover design especially for us beginners to get to the nearest values and so to make life easier. Then change values little by little to get to the desired performance as you tune by ear. Sayang naman ang science di ba kung di pakinabangan...
« Last Edit: Sep 01, 2014 at 11:26 PM by deist »

Offline camoteque

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1122 on: Sep 01, 2014 at 10:17 PM »
kaya madami builders ayaw ng multi-drivers dahil sa crossover design - second lang yun losses ang reason. it's easily a cause for a make or break in a multi-driver design.

noon, basta lagyan lang ng capacitor yun pt-6 tofutofu na... di na naisip yun attenuation at integration. ;D



Pinakamahirap talaga ang crossover design.

Ung PT6 yan yung pioneer di ba? Ung square mouth na nilalagay sa dyip? parang natatandaan ko nung college ako bumili rin ako nyan at kinabit ko on top sa lumang speaker namin. Ang ganda ng kalansing pag pinatutugtog ko si Michael Jackson doing 'Don't Stop Til you get enough.'  :)

Offline xbase

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Re: Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1123 on: Sep 01, 2014 at 10:54 PM »
I'm now at finishing stage of 4 way dipole, X-over by calculations only to get parts value, used SPL meter to balance driver's output levels and other tuning all by air (ear).

Here's a pic...



It's at temporary location while work is in progress, base will be added to mount the spike.
wow! look at that crossover. the mother of all crossover!

Offline audiojunkie

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1124 on: Sep 02, 2014 at 12:22 AM »
Thanks to all for the comments & opinions..

Here where it all started...

OB work starts here (original version):
http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php/topic,66494.3060.html

More experiments performed before final design put into realization:
http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php/topic,66494.3030.html

Crossover final stage starts here:
http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php/topic,66494.3150.html
« Last Edit: Sep 02, 2014 at 02:56 AM by audiojunkie »
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Offline JojoD818

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1125 on: Sep 02, 2014 at 01:59 AM »
Pinakamahirap talaga ang crossover design.

Ung PT6 yan yung pioneer di ba? Ung square mouth na nilalagay sa dyip? parang natatandaan ko nung college ako bumili rin ako nyan at kinabit ko on top sa lumang speaker namin. Ang ganda ng kalansing pag pinatutugtog ko si Michael Jackson doing 'Don't Stop Til you get enough.'  :)


Ayun oh, pt6 user ka din pala brad! ;D Yup, dati tig isang pares kami ng mga utol ko, puro original na Pioneer kaya ingat na ingat kami... tama yun Beat It album at Madonna tracks panalo! those were the days...

Offline JojoD818

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1126 on: Sep 02, 2014 at 02:00 AM »
I agree with this statement by sir Larry.

There's this saying in the visual arts world to which I live by; "Follow the rules, learn the basics and when you have mastered both, BREAK THEM! Then create your own style."



yan din sabi lawyer ko eh... know and follow the rules before you break them! ;D ;D ;D


Offline audiojunkie

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1127 on: Sep 02, 2014 at 04:34 AM »
Grabeng crossover yan brother! Ang ganda ng execution. You need plenty of amplifier power to run those speakers. How's the SQ?

IMO, one still needs to use calculators/formulas in xover design especially for us beginners to get to the nearest values and so to make life easier. Then change values little by little to get to the desired performance as you tune by ear. Sayang naman ang science di ba kung di pakinabangan. Isa pa, ok lang kung napakarami mong stash ng capacitors, resistors, and inductors na naipon through the years. Kung hindi napakagastos gumawa ng xover sa pageexperiment. One time, we made passive 3-way xover using solen flat coil inductors and boutique capacitors (and even added transformer attenuators)for a 3-way horn system. Cost me about P20k for a pair of xovers alone. What if di maganda tunog sa una mo pa lang try. Di lumalaki ang gastos.

Picture of the said xover and horn speaker.


Sir Tony walang problema sa yo yang paggawa ng xover. Tatawanan mo lang yan!


Salamat brader... Total gagastusan ko na at pagaaksayahan ko ng panahon kaya inayos ko na. Hindi mga premium parts ang ginamit ko to keep cost at minimum. Required power at least 100watts and 4ohms rated. Maganda naman ang performance when I used Nakamichi stereo receiver na 100w/c, 150w/c luxman amps at sa ngayon B&K amp 200w/c.  Sa SQ, ang masasabi ko lang mas gusto ko ito sa dating kong speaker (paradigm studio 60 v2). Madalas din na tanong kumusta ang bass? Ito rin ang masasabi ko, w/ proper attenuation ng mid at high freq. lulutang din ng LF at natural na malambot sa tenga. Those who are interested how it's done check this... Manzanita OB...

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/110583-fast-fun-inexpensive-ob-project.html

Tama kayo brader, kailangan ang science dito at mathematics aside from endless research form infonet (Internet ). Dinaanan ko yan dagdag bawas ng values kahit meron na value sa calculation. Values are just the starting point pero the actual result depende sa drivers actual performance at integration or blending between drivers. Kahit fixed na ang cut-off freq. kailangan din extended listening session of different genre ng music. Took me almost a year to fine tune and finalized the design. I also accumulated a box of x-over parts dahil sa daming kinahoy na speakers.  The added toroid is part of a circuit for bass driver..

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/130679-t-bass-drive-ob-lf-drivers.html

Meron na rin akong napakinggan na horn system, napaka wide ng midrange at kailangan heavily attenuated  dahil sa taas ng sensitivity...
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Offline audiojunkie

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1128 on: Sep 02, 2014 at 04:36 AM »
susmaryosep! yan ang crossover! 8)

thumbsup!

Practice pa lang yan master J...  ;D
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Offline audiojunkie

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1129 on: Sep 02, 2014 at 05:23 AM »
Quote
author=deist link=topic=22682.msg2169687#msg2169687 date=1409576310]
Beautiful! this is one hell of a project, kudos to you sir  O0

If you don't mind, can you share with us the details like; drivers used & implementation, crossover settings etc. I assume the top 3 drivers are OB? TIA.

Thank you sir.... It's my weekend & holidays project ...

Yes, the 3 drivers mounted at flat panel. Woofer w/ H frame enclosure, open at the back but front form like Bandpass type. Originally, it's 12" woofer but found 15" which matches well with the configuration. So, it's now version 2 w/ 15" woofer. Midrange is 6.5" vintage wharfedale coated paper cone (very open in vocal). Twt-1 1" seas & Twt-2 kenwood horn.

Cut-off freq. bass- 80hz/12db, mid- 130hz/6db (low) - 3.5khz/12db (high), T1- 3.5khz/12db~ 22khz(max), T-2- 16khz/12db~ 50khz(max). Mid,T1&T2 are fixed attenuated to not use L-pad. Used same notch filter and impedance equalization from driver original crossover. If you notice freq. gap bet woofer & mid, in theory and number there's freq. hole but in real world of dipole environment our ears will not hear it. I also made the BP low 6db, @ 1 octave it covers down to 65hz. Fine tuning were done by extended listening sessions and opinions from friends who have different sound quality perceptions...
« Last Edit: Sep 02, 2014 at 11:27 PM by audiojunkie »
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Online tony

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1130 on: Sep 02, 2014 at 06:30 AM »
we are lucky to be able to access pareng Google,
copy paste lang nagkayari na.....:D
one downside to multiway is the need for more power
to compensate for the insertion losses that the passive
cross-overs bring, but then there is active cross-overing
which is even more flexible.....zero insertion loss...
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline camoteque

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1131 on: Sep 02, 2014 at 06:43 AM »

Meron na rin akong napakinggan na horn system, napaka wide ng midrange at kailangan heavily attenuated  dahil sa taas ng sensitivity...

What I did to my system to solve the problem you mentioned is to go active. I use 2 sets of 2A3 SET amps to separately drive the mids and the highs and then solid state sa woofers. In this configuration, it is the Iows that I attenuate because of the high sensitivity of the Altecs @ 100db. I really love this system because importante sa akin ang scale when I listen to music (aside from the fact that ako may gawa nito ha ha!).

Might go 4-way because I have an extra mid-bass horn waiting to be installed.


Ganito yata talaga ang mga DIYers eh. Hindi humihinto sa pag-explore kahit madalas madapa. :)

Saan ka located? Any chance I can listen to your 4-way set-up?

Offline audiojunkie

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1132 on: Sep 02, 2014 at 12:49 PM »
wow! look at that crossover. the mother of all crossover!

Tried to do a minimalist approach sir... Pero yan ang end product.... ;D
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Offline audiojunkie

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1133 on: Sep 02, 2014 at 12:58 PM »
What I did to my system to solve the problem you mentioned is to go active. I use 2 sets of 2A3 SET amps to separately drive the mids and the highs and then solid state sa woofers. In this configuration, it is the Iows that I attenuate because of the high sensitivity of the Altecs @ 100db. I really love this system because importante sa akin ang scale when I listen to music (aside from the fact that ako may gawa nito ha ha!).

Might go 4-way because I have an extra mid-bass horn waiting to be installed.


Ganito yata talaga ang mga DIYers eh. Hindi humihinto sa pag-explore kahit madalas madapa. :)

Saan ka located? Any chance I can listen to your 4-way set-up?

So, it's tri-amp configuration... Will try biamping once I'm done on the final work.  Ang maganda sa multi way drivers not force to voice to its limit or beyond their breaking point.

Ganun talaga... Mahirap e resist ang malikot na idea.... ;D

Medyo malayo ang location ko... Dito ako sa Kuwait... Kelan ka pasyal? :D
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Offline audiojunkie

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1134 on: Sep 02, 2014 at 01:02 PM »
we are lucky to be able to access pareng Google,
copy paste lang nagkayari na.....:D
one downside to multiway is the need for more power
to compensate for the insertion losses that the passive
cross-overs bring, but then there is active cross-overing
which is even more flexible.....zero insertion loss...

Lalo na sir sa OB, have to sacrifice sensitivity to get tonal balance.

Medyo mahal lang ang active x-over except it be diyed.
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Offline camoteque

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1135 on: Sep 02, 2014 at 03:04 PM »
Medyo malayo ang location ko... Dito ako sa Kuwait... Kelan ka pasyal? :D

Ang layo mo pala! Magpapa book muna ko.

Compared sa total cost of passive parts for a complicated xover, di na rin lalayo sa presyo ng active. I use MiniDsp 2x8 @ $300. Though me additional processing, one would not notice kung di mo lang ipapaalam sa nakikinig. But you have tons of flexibility naman like delay, different types of filters and slopes, EQ, etc.

Offline JoeyGS

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1136 on: Sep 02, 2014 at 03:06 PM »
Larry,

Where is the best way to get the miniDSP?



Ang layo mo pala! Magpapa book muna ko.

Compared sa total cost of passive parts for a complicated xover, di na rin lalayo sa presyo ng active. I use MiniDsp 2x8 @ $300. Though me additional processing, one would not notice kung di mo lang ipapaalam sa nakikinig. But you have tons of flexibility naman like delay, different types of filters and slopes, EQ, etc.

Offline audiojunkie

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1137 on: Sep 02, 2014 at 05:59 PM »
Ang layo mo pala! Magpapa book muna ko.

Compared sa total cost of passive parts for a complicated xover, di na rin lalayo sa presyo ng active. I use MiniDsp 2x8 @ $300. Though me additional processing, one would not notice kung di mo lang ipapaalam sa nakikinig. But you have tons of flexibility naman like delay, different types of filters and slopes, EQ, etc.

Noted sir... Will check if I can get from suking tindahan...
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Offline camoteque

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1138 on: Sep 02, 2014 at 06:37 PM »
Larry,

Where is the best way to get the miniDSP?




Joey,

I ordered it online but paid customs tax when I picked them up at the Post Office. Me pinadala na parang invoice ang customs. Kainis. Forgot the exact amount because that was maybe 3 years ago already.

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1139 on: Sep 03, 2014 at 01:09 PM »
Sir Larry, seeing here that you have an extensive experience in speaker building and for the benefit of us newbies in DIY, how do you design your enclosures/horns? What are the usual steps you do before building a design?

Btw, ang ganda ng craftsmanship ng mga builds mo. two thumbs up!  ;)



IMO, one still needs to use calculators/formulas in xover design especially for us beginners to get to the nearest values and so to make life easier. Then change values little by little to get to the desired performance as you tune by ear. Sayang naman ang science di ba kung di pakinabangan. Isa pa, ok lang

Picture of the said xover and horn speaker.