Topic: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?

[slowhand]

The reason I won't choose tubes for my amp is that I want to integrate audio and video and would not want to have to maintain 5 channels of tubes, or more.

However, I am plotting to insert a tube preamp in the future, specifically one with an HT bypass, to handle audio needs.

Does that make me a "balimbing"? Hehe.
Or maybe I just don't want to limit my choices and, instead, strive to get the most out of different worlds.

But that's me, and my own journey.

[greatness]

Budget......

[rtsy]

I still dont have any idea about tube setup, kaya di ako upgrade nang tubes ehehehehe, i wanna hear those babies

Best is to hear 'em first.  There is no more productive means in doing this than by paying Hyperaudio a visit.  You'd be sure to hear at least 3-4 tube stuff in one sitting there.

[rtsy]

However, I am plotting to insert a tube preamp in the future, specifically one with an HT bypass, to handle audio needs.

Sounds like a good plan.

Also consider a tubed DAC.

[rtsy]

Budget......

Money is a frame of mind.  

Tubes (and solid state) or analog (and digital), hell, everything audio are all mere tools at achieving the sound you want.

So the first step really is to educate oneself and learn what your preferences are.

When you find out what sound you are after, that's the time you decide what tools you'd get to get to that sound.  That's the time to zero in on Single Ended vs. Push Pull, Tubes vs. S/S, digital vs. analog, etc.

Thing is, you just need to hope and pray that to get to your desired sound, you don't spend much $$$.  Corollary to this, the path to your sonic nirvana may actually be just simple speaker re-positioning or a cheap tweak or two.

[jofkevski]

hmmm ... an interesting ressurected topic. learned a lot reading the past posts ... explained those technicalities which I in time past tried to get answers.

Having read other (both technical and subjective, both intelligent and senseless) forums and discussions, my mind is set on the following reasons why I wont go tubes:

- inherent limitations of tube amplification technology (as explained by lexmill)
- maintenance issues (total cost of ownership)
- safety issues (for kids who may also inappropriately "touch" the eqpt)
- no practical value (sonically and economically) embarking on it

[levi]

hmmm ... an interesting ressurected topic. learned a lot reading the past posts ... explained those technicalities which I in time past tried to get answers.

Having read other (both technical and subjective, both intelligent and senseless) forums and discussions, my mind is set on the following reasons why I wont go tubes:

- inherent limitations of tube amplification technology (as explained by lexmill)
- maintenance issues (total cost of ownership)
- safety issues (for kids who may also inappropriately "touch" the eqpt)
- no practical value (sonically and economically) embarking on it

IMO
1. Tube amplification is the same as SS amplification. Both amplifies sound.
2. Its a misconception. Just use it, no need to do anything. It becomes expensive when you upgrade the tubes but you can live without changing the tubes. Remember a lot of tube user in the Philippines are using 2nd hand gears but it is still working as if brand new.
3. There are ways to get around this and there are brands with protection.
4. I guess you have not tried listening to a tube amp. You should try to get one for yourself and you will know how good it is. Economically, both has the same function and purpose. Dont listen to music if you dont want to spend. Tube amp will give you years of very good music. Just change the tubes when it gets consumed but it will take years. My amp is a 1962 model and it is working fine. It is a lot better than my few months old Denon receiver so why would you say its not practical.

[greatbop]

1.) Cost. I don't want a second hand unit. and to get one of those right now... it's 2k usd for a preamp. and another 3k usd for a pair of monoblocks with decent wattage ratings that can play loud enough and still cleanly for me.

2.) My pair of speakers CRAVE power. the bass driver crave to be choked and slammed down for the very tight bass it does. Tubes won't cut it.

3.) my SS amps are very warm enough as it is. Airy- very airy wind instruments. I am happy with what my Solid State amp can do.

4.) if i wanna go tube.. i wanna have tube on everything, cd player, pre amp, amp, etc and that will cost alot of money.

[john5479]

- no practical value (sonically and economically) embarking on it


I beg to disagree on this one, especially sonically, was a skeptic before but now I understand why tubes are still used today for amplification...midrange is superb at least for all the tube amps i've listened to

of course each has its own compromise, you can't power certain speakers with tube amplification...it just won't cut it, but pairing tube amps with appropriate speakers (not all them cost an arm and a leg) provides the magic sans the brute power of ss.

each has its own advantages though but with the music I listen to tubes is the way to go...good thing I still use ss for my ht...its hard to wait like 30 minutes before playing a movie

[tuff_u_gong]

The reason I won't choose tubes for my amp is that I want to integrate audio and video and would not want to have to maintain 5 channels of tubes, or more.

However, I am plotting to insert a tube preamp in the future, specifically one with an HT bypass, to handle audio needs.

Does that make me a "balimbing"? Hehe.
Or maybe I just don't want to limit my choices and, instead, strive to get the most out of different worlds.

But that's me, and my own journey.

hi slowhand!

i tried that route of integrating audio with video too by getting myself a (used) tube preamp and hook them up with my SS HT amp. there were indeed noticeable improvements in detail and warmth. however, my experience (though very limited) helped me realize that a tube amp really has a lot more to offer in terms of musicality and that, long term, i won't be satified with just a hybrid setup.

i have retained both my tube and solid state gear, though. for short listening sessions (weekdays, after work) i often use SS. on weekends, i use the hybrid gear until my tube amp warms up. my all-tube setup is virtually on from Friday evening to monday morning.

[rtsy]

- inherent limitations of tube amplification technology (as explained by lexmill)

All gears have limitations, both tubes and solid state included.  It's really a choose your own poison kinda thing.

- maintenance issues (total cost of ownership)

There are a couple of dimensions to maintenance:

1--Generally, tubes wear out faster than transistors, especially power tubes.  So yes, in this sense, maintenance of tubes is more costly.

But if you're talking about driver tubes, those last a long, long time.  The 6111WA in my DAC is rated at 10,000 hours or about 10 years of listening pleasure, never turning the damn thing off.

And transistors, capacitors, etc. in S/S wear out too.  Hypertriode recently replaced the op-amps in my NAD 502 despite tender loving care.

2--Tubes generally have simpler circuitry than S/S and parts tend to be "discrete" (i.e., point-to-point wiring vs. crammed PCBs).  So when something breaks (and most gear do), tubes generally are easier to repair.

3--As far as total cost of ownership goes, tubes have a distinct advantage over S/S in that there are significantly more system tuning options with tubes.  If something changes in your system (say you upgrade speakers, cables, or move rooms, etc.), it's generally easier to tune the system to your liking with tubes (tube rolling, caps, etc.) with tubes than with S/S.

So instead of changing electronics also each time there is a change in your system, you just make some parts modifications and you're done.

- safety issues (for kids who may also inappropriately "touch" the eqpt)

I have a 3 year old.  Safety is an issue to me.

http://www.jcaudio.com/product/AudioNote/daccomparison.html is the full range of Audio Note (tubed) DAC's.

http://www.conradjohnson.com/It_just_sounds_right/current-tube-line.html is the range of Conrad-Jonson (tubed) pre-amps.

What's there to threaten my 3 year old here?

- no practical value (sonically and economically) embarking on it

Sonic value, like beauty, is in the eyes/ears of the beholder so this sweeping general statement is careless at best.

Now economic value, well, let's see:

1--Mullard EL34 metal base sold for US$2 when it was still manufactured.  A used xf1 was posted in Pinoydiophiles Marketplace for PhP7.5k ea.

2--GEC KT66 was <US$4 now US$180 ea

3--The Dynaco ST70 sold for US$100 in kit form.  The sub PhP50k souped up ST70 from Hypertriode is a true bargain nowadays.

4--The Scott 299 was ~US$220 new.  You'd spend ~PhP20k to buy a working one now.

Contrast these numbers to the <PhP20k my brother in law paid for an Onkyo TX-DS575 (I think, a fine model BTW) receiver 2 years ago.  How much do you think he could sell that today?

Or even so called "audiophile grade" stuff like my NAD502 (~US$300 new, aorund PhP30:US$1 then) and someone else's same model for PhP5k in the Marketplace with no takers if I remember correctly.

Do please correct me if I am misunderstanding your concept of "economic" value.

As I've mentioned before jofkevski, nothing personal, OK?    I'm responding to your post as these (very) hasty generalizations of yours are terribly damaging especially to newbies.

[rtsy]

4.) if i wanna go tube.. i wanna have tube on everything, cd player, pre amp, amp, etc and that will cost alot of money.

Why?  Do you think this is really necessary?

I got tubes in my DAC and pre-amp.  For a while, I onle had them in my pre.  Good enough for me.  

It only takes a tube or two to bring that tube magic in a system.  Going the whole hog can in fact be deletrious to the sound.

[jofkevski]

Hi Levi!

Saw your setup. gandang tingnan. Ganda rin bahay mo. Anyway, tried to reply on your reaction.

1. Tube amplification is the same as SS amplification. Both amplifies sound.

- Yes, this is true. The absence of transistors in the early days paved the way for vacuum tubes to be used for amplification. Could history be the same should there be transistor amplifier and digital circuitry in the early days, side by side with vacuum tubes?

2. Its a misconception. Just use it, no need to do anything. It becomes expensive when you upgrade the tubes but you can live without changing the tubes. Remember a lot of tube user in the Philippines are using 2nd hand gears but it is still working as if brand new.

- Perhaps for more expensive gears and more expensive tubes. So if my money will limit me on initial purchase (compared with transistor), there will be more frequency of maintenance - since I understand tubes has shelf life, it being a vacuum itself.

3. There are ways to get around this and there are brands with protection.

- Yes, but I do not need to do this round for transistor amplifiers

4. I guess you have not tried listening to a tube amp. You should try to get one for yourself and you will know how good it is.

Nope. I was able to listen (in my younger days though) to tube gear (not stereo amp). but after tubes limitation has been discussed earlier (SLEW RATE, the coupling tube and transformer) - I dont see the need.

Economically, both has the same function and purpose. Dont listen to music if you dont want to spend. Tube amp will give you years of very good music. Just change the tubes when it gets consumed but it will take years. My amp is a 1962 model and it is working fine. It is a lot better than my few months old Denon receiver so why would you say its not practical.

- Yes, S/S and tubes has the same functions. If I will spend to listen to music, because both SS and tubes has the same purpose, why buy tubes if I can get transistors? SS will also give you years of good music. There's nothing to change in transistor amps. I am not contesting that your tube is better than your Denon (this is subjective naman eh). Practicality - If I like my transistor amp now, with nothing to do to maintain it and will last me with years of music, why go on tubes for the same reason and plus maintenance with it. Is it not really going backward?

[jofkevski]

- no practical value (sonically and economically) embarking on it


I beg to disagree on this one, especially sonically, was a skeptic before but now I understand why tubes are still used today for amplification...midrange is superb at least for all the tube amps i've listened to

of course each has its own compromise, you can't power certain speakers with tube amplification...it just won't cut it, but pairing tube amps with appropriate speakers (not all them cost an arm and a leg) provides the magic sans the brute power of ss.

each has its own advantages though but with the music I listen to tubes is the way to go...good thing I still use ss for my ht...its hard to wait like 30 minutes before playing a movie

Hi john5479!

Again, sonically is a subjective issue. And I wont contest you on that. Somehow I understand why tube were regarded for their sonics - it is basically the (inaudible frequency response) limitation of the tubes to recreate the nth harmonics that characterizes actual sound being recreated. The result seemed cleaner but less real.

On the midrange front, i may agree with you. But portions of it is explained above (the nth harmonics limitations of tubes). However, getting the midrange that you want in the tube can also be accomplished in SS - proper matching of your SS amp and speaker will do the trick.

If tubes is your way to go, then you are one of those that develop a liking for music reproduced by (frequency-limited) tubes. Perhaps I may want the music (minus some of the music elements in the real) also in my relaxing time. But I think I will be more content if what I am hearing is closer to the real sound (or at least nearer to the sound the audio engineer intend it to be).

Thanks also for siting the 30-minute heat-up time for tube to really crank-up good music. You are really tube lover who can tolerate 30-minute wait time to enjoy music. I may say I salute you tube lovers! Can we coin a word for you guys? how about TubePhile (as in audio phile)?

Regards

[jofkevski]

All gears have limitations, both tubes and solid state included.  It's really a choose your own poison kinda thing.There are a couple of dimensions to maintenance:

1--Generally, tubes wear out faster than transistors, especially power tubes.  So yes, in this sense, maintenance of tubes is more costly.

But if you're talking about driver tubes, those last a long, long time.  The 6111WA in my DAC is rated at 10,000 hours or about 10 years of listening pleasure, never turning the d**n thing off.

And transistors, capacitors, etc. in S/S wear out too.  Hypertriode recently replaced the op-amps in my NAD 502 despite tender loving care.

2--Tubes generally have simpler circuitry than S/S and parts tend to be "discrete" (i.e., point-to-point wiring vs. crammed PCBs).  So when something breaks (and most gear do), tubes generally are easier to repair.

3--As far as total cost of ownership goes, tubes have a distinct advantage over S/S in that there are significantly more system tuning options with tubes.  If something changes in your system (say you upgrade speakers, cables, or move rooms, etc.), it's generally easier to tune the system to your liking with tubes (tube rolling, caps, etc.) with tubes than with S/S.

So instead of changing electronics also each time there is a change in your system, you just make some parts modifications and you're done.I have a 3 year old.  Safety is an issue to me.

http://www.jcaudio.com/product/AudioNote/daccomparison.html is the full range of Audio Note (tubed) DAC's.

http://www.conradjohnson.com/It_just_sounds_right/current-tube-line.html is the range of Conrad-Jonson (tubed) pre-amps.

What's there to threaten my 3 year old here?Sonic value, like beauty, is in the eyes/ears of the beholder so this sweeping general statement is careless at best.

Now economic value, well, let's see:

1--Mullard EL34 metal base sold for US$2 when it was still manufactured.  A used xf1 was posted in Pinoydiophiles Marketplace for PhP7.5k ea.

2--GEC KT66 was <US$4 now US$180 ea

3--The Dynaco ST70 sold for US$100 in kit form.  The sub PhP50k souped up ST70 from Hypertriode is a true bargain nowadays.

4--The Scott 299 was ~US$220 new.  You'd spend ~PhP20k to buy a working one now.

Contrast these numbers to the <PhP20k my brother in law paid for an Onkyo TX-DS575 (I think, a fine model BTW) receiver 2 years ago.  How much do you think he could sell that today?

Or even so called "audiophile grade" stuff like my NAD502 (~US$300 new, aorund PhP30:US$1 then) and someone else's same model for PhP5k in the Marketplace with no takers if I remember correctly.

Do please correct me if I am misunderstanding your concept of "economic" value.

As I've mentioned before jofkevski, nothing personal, OK?    I'm responding to your post as these (very) hasty generalizations of yours are terribly damaging especially to newbies.

Hi rtsy!

You can be assured of it, this is nothing personal. So here is my reply to you.

1 - maintenance issues, at least you recognize it in general terms. between stereo SS and tubes, in same price level - there is almost zero maintenance for SS (I may say at all price levels). Your NAD repair might be an exception to the rule (in the same way that a lemon product can exist among the good bunch). I amy agree with you on more expensive tubes - but then I will also compare it with expensive SS gear - and we will end on the same maintenance issues.

2 - Sorry about your idea of circuitry. I am a person who hates spaghetti wires (I saw a lot of tube amps underneath). Magkaiba tayo ano? Ako, I am awed by good circuit board and assemblies without jumper wires. To me, it shows that a clean assembly without jumping wires are well-designed (PCB) boards. Anyway, for repair issues, I can repair both if I want to.

3- Again, tuning the system to your liking is subjective issue and I wont contest that with you. I can have my own process of tuning up my SS to my liking with less to move.

4. The value portion is after the first 3 points I raised. At 20k what do you got as brand new for tubes (stereo) because I can get also a good 20k stereo amp (and nothing to maintain anymore, no safety rounds to do, listen to it as it cranks music). For second hand gear, the same thing, what do you get for a stereo gear (tube and SS), for I can get some of the best of breed in pier that cost hundreds and thousand of dollars as brand new for less than a hundred dollar, and lots of power and muscle. I have had 5 top of the line SS amp in pier and all (upon internal inspection) are unaltered - pumping so much beatiful music than the cheap crappy product of today. I enjoyed them for my music. Now, still waiting for the best model to come in that place yet (after I identified it in my research).

So now, I still dont see the value you are talking about. I agree tubes are something unusual (kasi nga konti lang ang nahilig dyan). Siempre, napakaunti ang nag-sesell ng tube amp, at may kaunti na bibili - so medyo mataas ang resale value mo. Sa SS, madami nagbebenta, brand new is also in high competition to each other, e kung saturated din ang market mo, natural, your resale value will just go down - and this in itself - makes SS of more value (for your few bucks).

Maganda yung Audio note ah! preamp lang yata yon - hindi pa amp. magkano naman ang bayad sa safety non?

[Blade]

For second hand gear, the same thing, what do you get for a stereo gear (tube and SS), for I can get some of the best of breed in pier that cost hundreds and thousand of dollars as brand new for less than a hundred dollar, and lots of power and muscle. I have had 5 top of the line SS amp in pier and all (upon internal inspection) are unaltered - pumping so much beatiful music than the cheap crappy product of today. I enjoyed them for my music. Now, still waiting for the best model to come in that place yet (after I identified it in my research).

yo bro

eto ba yung pier where you can see the widescreen & flat tvs?
ano yung nga SS amps you saw and could recommend?
thanks....


blade.

[jofkevski]

Hi Blade!

I saw at 1 store selling for 4500 (makuha mo pa ito ng 4k) Marantz PM80 (100watts per channel class AB and 25 watts per channel pure class A). I just dont know why I cant operate class A so be cautious on this.

I also spotted a sony champagne gold monster (MOSFET amp) selling for 6.5k. Likewise Onkyo Integra A-817GX (MOSFET) for 4.5k.

Sansui AU-D607X (80wpc at 8ohm, 100wpc at 6ohms)decade at 4.5k, and AU-alpha607 (80wpc/8ohms, 100wpc/6ohms)

For cheaper value, Marantz PM54 or Sansui AU-alpha507i (60wpc/8ohms, 80wpc/6ohms) selling for about 3k.

Bring good sounding CDs you are familiar with and listen at low volumes, listen with following setting:
- tone control flat,
- treble control flat, boost bass control
- bass control flat, boost treble
- tone control flat, switch loudness on
- any tone configuration at louder volume, no music played
- any tone configuration at louder volume, music is played

in all of the above, check if there are hissing noise, or unusual on the sound recording of the CD you brought. Check that amp screws are all accounted for and unscratched (I mean the screws) and of the same type (this will give you hint the unit is not repaired or opened up).

If you are satisfied, make your decisions. Take note, they are not 110Volts but 100volts. and of course, they are heavy.

Happy hunting!

If you like pictures of this before buying, PM me your email and I will send it to you (except the SONY and integra).

[greatbop]

Why?  Do you think this is really necessary?

I got tubes in my DAC and pre-amp.  For a while, I onle had them in my pre.  Good enough for me.  

It only takes a tube or two to bring that tube magic in a system.  Going the whole hog can in fact be deletrious to the sound.

Dahil I believe that everything starts with the Source.

[levi]

Hi Levi!

Saw your setup. gandang tingnan. Ganda rin bahay mo. Anyway, tried to reply on your reaction.

1. Tube amplification is the same as SS amplification. Both amplifies sound.

- Yes, this is true. The absence of transistors in the early days paved the way for vacuum tubes to be used for amplification. Could history be the same should there be transistor amplifier and digital circuitry in the early days, side by side with vacuum tubes?

2. Its a misconception. Just use it, no need to do anything. It becomes expensive when you upgrade the tubes but you can live without changing the tubes. Remember a lot of tube user in the Philippines are using 2nd hand gears but it is still working as if brand new.

- Perhaps for more expensive gears and more expensive tubes. So if my money will limit me on initial purchase (compared with transistor), there will be more frequency of maintenance - since I understand tubes has shelf life, it being a vacuum itself.

3. There are ways to get around this and there are brands with protection.

- Yes, but I do not need to do this round for transistor amplifiers

4. I guess you have not tried listening to a tube amp. You should try to get one for yourself and you will know how good it is.

Nope. I was able to listen (in my younger days though) to tube gear (not stereo amp). but after tubes limitation has been discussed earlier (SLEW RATE, the coupling tube and transformer) - I dont see the need.

Economically, both has the same function and purpose. Dont listen to music if you dont want to spend. Tube amp will give you years of very good music. Just change the tubes when it gets consumed but it will take years. My amp is a 1962 model and it is working fine. It is a lot better than my few months old Denon receiver so why would you say its not practical.

- Yes, S/S and tubes has the same functions. If I will spend to listen to music, because both SS and tubes has the same purpose, why buy tubes if I can get transistors? SS will also give you years of good music. There's nothing to change in transistor amps. I am not contesting that your tube is better than your Denon (this is subjective naman eh). Practicality - If I like my transistor amp now, with nothing to do to maintain it and will last me with years of music, why go on tubes for the same reason and plus maintenance with it. Is it not really going backward?

jofkevski

- Yes, this is true. The absence of transistors in the early days paved the way for vacuum tubes to be used for amplification. Could history be the same should there be transistor amplifier and digital circuitry in the early days, side by side with vacuum tubes?

Yes, but I still wont say there is an inherent limitation that is why I wont go for tubes. Both technology perform the same function they just differ in pros and cons. I respect your judgement if you prefer SS but I just disagree with your reasoning.

- Perhaps for more expensive gears and more expensive tubes. So if my money will limit me on initial purchase (compared with transistor), there will be more frequency of maintenance - since I understand tubes has shelf life, it being a vacuum itself.

In the short term maybe  but in the long run tube technology will outlast SS. Value for money I  will go for tubes. If you are referring to expensive models only then you cannot generalize that tube amps are more expensive to maintain. There are affordable tube amps that can rival the sound of expensive SS but does not need any maintenance.

- Yes, but I do not need to do this round for transistor amplifiers

I think this is a lame excuse for not wanting a tube amp. Im not forcing you to get one, but I just want to explain to other members.


-Nope. I was able to listen (in my younger days though) to tube gear (not stereo amp). but after tubes limitation has been discussed earlier (SLEW RATE, the coupling tube and transformer) - I dont see the need.

What I mean is to really experience listening to a good sounding tube amp for sometime. If you just heard it and based your judgement from lexmil's advise then that wont be accurate. Based from lexmil's explanations before, his only experience in tubes is also the same as yours ( younger days ). Another thing, lets not be technical here, our main goal is to have good music. Listening is the final judge.

- Yes, S/S and tubes has the same functions. If I will spend to listen to music, because both SS and tubes has the same purpose, why buy tubes if I can get transistors? SS will also give you years of good music. There's nothing to change in transistor amps. I am not contesting that your tube is better than your Denon (this is subjective naman eh). Practicality - If I like my transistor amp now, with nothing to do to maintain it and will last me with years of music, why go on tubes for the same reason and plus maintenance with it. Is it not really going backward?

In my case, I want to listen to good music. I compared both technologies and I prefer tubes. Its a lot better in sound and I know it will outlive my SS amp. Its a better investment in the long run. Changing tubes is cheaper than buying a new SS amp again and again. Another thing is aesthetics, its nice to look at. Are you saying that that new technology is better than old? Not in all cases but the bottom line is the kind of music you want.

I agree with you that this is a very subjective topic but we want to introduce to other members that there are other things other than 1 and 0. Nothing Personal.  

RTSY,

   Dont worry, that's the reason I unlocked this thread. It is a very informative thread although it becomes controversial sometimes, but we are all adults here and we just want to share.

Levi

[Blade]

Take note, they are not 110Volts but 100volts. and of course, they are heavy.

Happy hunting!

If you like pictures of this before buying, PM me your email and I will send it to you (except the SONY and integra).

no problem with 100v kasi i'm using dati surplus widescreen tv kaya meron akong AVR na me 100v.
you can send the pics : [email protected]
salamat sa mga recos and will look sa internet para sa mga specs & features nila.
thanks for the recos and buying tips bro....

blade.

[john5479]

"If tubes is your way to go, then you are one of those that develop a liking for music reproduced by (frequency--limited) tubes. Perhaps I may want the music (minus some of the music elements in the real) also in my relaxing time. But I think I will be more content if what I am hearing is closer to the real sound (or at least nearer to the sound the audio engineer intend it to be)."

specs are specs but my theory is music cannot be measured per se. transistors are made to measure better.

as for vacuum tubes being frequency limited I guess the point here is how they sound as a whole. I haven't heard jacintha's voice as close to live in a tube amp than any ss as of yet considering the price as well. Jazz Instrumentals? never heard a piano sound more real, percussion? sounds good...does it lack detail? I don't think so..and I have ss amplification as well for comparison, since ss measures well right ? so when I say tubes sound better sonically its because I have experienced listening to both. I like my music with detail, and the tube amps I've listened to have it.

"Thanks also for siting the 30-minute heat-up time for tube to really crank-up good music. You are really tube lover who can tolerate 30-minute wait time to enjoy music. I may say I salute you tube lovers! Can we coin a word for you guys? how about TubePhile (as in audio phile)?"

I am a music lover and I want to listen to great music not good music  

elements in music? tubes have the warmth and give body to music (I love music, I play the guitar and listen to gigs and acoustic events) music is not dry and listening to a live event..do you really need to hear every detail in order to enjoy it ? detail is not the only element in music.

you can read a lot of technical journal's and quote's from "experts" but the main question here is if you like the sound. I prefer the warm sound of tubes and since my goal here is to "listen" to music I don't care about specs..except for some like the wattage and power consumption. and one more thing, please consider the parts available during those times...try listening to tube amps with much better capacitors, resistors and the like.
but would I really care if a certain electronic part measures better than the other if what I am looking for or what I am concerned is the end product ? no.


Yes component matching is essential and ss mated with the right speakers will sound good...but you can apply that same argument to tube amps matched with the right speakers.

I am not bashing SS, I have ss for my ht and I like it, not because I don't have to wait but its because ss fits my movie preferences,like I've said each has its own advantages.  

By the way this is just for the use of vacuum tubes in music...transistors bash tubes in other areas of electronics...I can't imagine networking equipment, cpu's still using vacuum tubes...achieving the blazing speeds and small size factor would not be possible if vacuum tubes were used.

[jofkevski]

Hi levi!

Since you mention about that they are breeds of technology, then I cant help it to use technical items to justify my preference. We just cant brush aside technicalities in here if it will justify my choice of SS. And the limitation is a technical fact, whether you want it or not, whether you believe it or not, whether you like the sound of your tube or your SS. It will not change no matter what you want to believe in.

I am a person also deep in research of audio gears. And I have the privilege to visit one of the site. And which will outlast which? neither! for both are still alive and kicking - it so happen transistor just came in after tubes.
a lot of vintage SS and tubes are traded around the world.

Again, talking of rivalring tubes and SS amps. This is subjective. If you think it rivals your SS, then so be it, it is you anyway. If I say SS rivals tubes, then so be it, it is me anyway. The truth is, I am not saying my SS is better than your tubes. I just cited the technical issues I have against tubes which formed the base of my decision. thats all. Like you, I respect you using your tubes.

Doing precautionary measures to provide safety net for the tubes is a big issue to me - it could be lame to you. And you can not judge me by putting a lot of weight to doing rounds of safety net for something I may not do at all for some other SS options.

Well, you see, what your amp does (like the tubes), is to make their respective signature of sound reproduction. The NAD on the too soft and laid back, the Denon on the too laid back, the marantz on slightly laid back, the yamaha on the accurate, the pioneer on the bright, the tubes on its own coloration. So whats new to listen about. Again, the sound you listen in the tube is part of the tube technicalities, and technicalities we will not avoid. But in the end, as you said, as you listen, whether you want the sound it produced, and if you did, then you are one happy person to own one. so do I in my SS amp. I hope we will not spend so much time to defend our respective subjectivity in selecting our respective music sound.

Good for you when you decided to go tubes for your music. Same here, I love the music I heard from my SS, and comparing technologies, I have set myself for the SS. No changing tubes, my amp I will live with the rest of my life, no changes whatsoever, no maintenance and cheaper than tube at that. My amp is also nice to look at - its my baby.

I do not know with you how you rate technology to be good or better. One thing I know, you are reaping and enjoying the goodies of new technology.

For some members, there is more to what reach your eyes and ears - and behind those things are technicalities.

Nothing personal.


Best regards

[Qman]

no problem with 100v kasi i'm using dati surplus widescreen tv kaya meron akong AVR na me 100v.
you can send the pics : [email protected]
salamat sa mga recos and will look sa internet para sa mga specs & features nila.
thanks for the recos and buying tips bro....

blade.

jofkevski
pa email na rin sa kin ang pics

[email protected]

[john5479]

its better to get different points of view for touchy subjects   be it ss or tubes as long as it sounds good then enjoy the music!

[jofkevski]

"If tubes is your way to go, then you are one of those that develop a liking for music reproduced by (frequency--limited) tubes. Perhaps I may want the music (minus some of the music elements in the real) also in my relaxing time. But I think I will be more content if what I am hearing is closer to the real sound (or at least nearer to the sound the audio engineer intend it to be)."

specs are specs but my theory is music cannot be measured per se. transistors are made to measure better.

as for vacuum tubes being frequency limited I guess the point here is how they sound as a whole. I haven't heard jacintha's voice as close to live in a tube amp than any ss as of yet considering the price as well. Jazz Instrumentals? never heard a piano sound more real, percussion? sounds good...does it lack detail? I don't think so..and I have ss amplification as well for comparison, since ss measures well right ? so when I say tubes sound better sonically its because I have experienced listening to both. I like my music with detail, and the tube amps I've listened to have it.

"Thanks also for siting the 30-minute heat-up time for tube to really crank-up good music. You are really tube lover who can tolerate 30-minute wait time to enjoy music. I may say I salute you tube lovers! Can we coin a word for you guys? how about TubePhile (as in audio phile)?"

I am a music lover and I want to listen to great music not good music  

elements in music? tubes have the warmth and give body to music (I love music, I play the guitar and listen to gigs and acoustic events) music is not dry and listening to a live event..do you really need to hear every detail in order to enjoy it ? detail is not the only element in music.

you can read a lot of technical journal's and quote's from "experts" but the main question here is if you like the sound. I prefer the warm sound of tubes and since my goal here is to "listen" to music I don't care about specs..except for some like the wattage and power consumption. and one more thing, please consider the parts available during those times...try listening to tube amps with much better capacitors, resistors and the like.
but would I really care if a certain electronic part measures better than the other if what I am looking for or what I am concerned is the end product ? no.


Yes component matching is essential and ss mated with the right speakers will sound good...but you can apply that same argument to tube amps matched with the right speakers.

I am not bashing SS, I have ss for my ht and I like it, not because I don't have to wait but its because ss fits my movie preferences,like I've said each has its own advantages.  

By the way this is just for the use of vacuum tubes in music...transistors bash tubes in other areas of electronics...I can't imagine networking equipment, cpu's still using vacuum tubes...achieving the blazing speeds and small size factor would not be possible if vacuum tubes were used.

Hi John5479!

I like your answer. You only proved to me that there is no real value for me to go tubes. A lot of people says differently of tubes and SS amp. In the end, it is you who will decide based on your preferences. So i rest my case with you.

regards

[john5479]

the topic is not posted to say which technology is better. so in the end its your preference...we must at least respect each others preferences and not bash each other right? there should be a balance between artistry and technicalities, I am a technical person but I know how to appreciate things in some other ways than rather going to the microscope, oscilloscope, voltmeter or whatever and try to explain everything, enjoy life...keep the peace!  

[rtsy]

we will end on the same maintenance issues.

Both have pros & cons.  Like I mentioned, choose your own poison.  I'm sure there are many who won't mind increased maintenance (tube or S/S) so long as it's the sound they like.

2 - Sorry about your idea of circuitry. I am a person who hates spaghetti wires (I saw a lot of tube amps underneath).

Yeah, lots of careless DIYers and even manufacturers make frazzled looking innards.  I remember a friend claiming that many users of the transformer-baed passive he DIYed claim that the unit sounds better with spaghetti wires.

However, have you seen ANY of the handiworks of Hypertriode?  Most systems (including the universe!) are subject to entropy but Hypertiode's masterpieces go against the grain...cosmos out of chaos.  

Magkaiba tayo ano? Ako, I am awed by good circuit board and assemblies without jumper wires. To me, it shows that a clean assembly without jumping wires are well-designed (PCB) boards.

This presents another tunig tool.  Hard-wired stuff can be re-wired to all silver or what your choice of conductor is.

Anyway, for repair issues, I can repair both if I want to.

Good for you.  However, how many other hobbyists, especially newbies, can?

So now, I still dont see the value you are talking about. I agree tubes are something unusual (kasi nga konti lang ang nahilig dyan).

Sorry.  I was merely pointing out that as an "economic value," those examples I've mentioned have churned returns on investment that beats major stock market indexes.  

Maganda yung Audio note ah! preamp lang yata yon - hindi pa amp. magkano naman ang bayad sa safety non?

I sent you links to Audio Note  DACs, not pre-amps.  The DACs (and even pre-amps) start at around US$600.

If you want safe and cheap, there are the integrated vintage Dynacos.

[levi]

I just want to make clear that I started with SS and Im still using SS for my HT. It took me a year of research before I plunge into tubes. I had lots of misconception before so I went around to learn. I learned a lot from other members and trying out different gears. I wont say Im a pro, actually Im just a newbie. I own a very basic setup, way below compared to other tube users. What I want to tell other members is to try it first before judging. Get info from reliable experienced people and read informative articles.There is no forcing here, just informing other people to give it a try then they decide. I  want to show the good points of owning one and the only way to show it is to let them try hands on. I dont want other people to decide based on misconception.  

Just my 1 cent

[john5479]

If a certain individual says this and that...take it with a grain of salt, whats important here is to have an open mind, I believe the person who started this thread wants to get the point of view of an ss user why he doesn't want to delve into tube amplification not to say that tubes are superior or something like that.  At the same time, clear misconceptions...with the wealth of info you can get from the net its easy to get swayed into thinking something is inferior to this and that. Great reviews, you buy it...without auditioning...you buy something, you like the sound..but want to find articles to give you comfort knowing you bought something thats well reviewed...like its the best.

Tubes still have their use for today...even sound engineers use vacuum tubes for  recordings and some still use vacuum tube guitar amps...and they churn out great music. The amp that senheisser came out for their most expensive headphone uses vacuum tubes. A headphone using tube amplification...what will happen to detail? resolution ? what gives ? what were they thinking? maybe it just sounds right.

there is no right or wrong...if you like ss, then stick to it. its good to know whats behind it or how they will say an amp will sound good if it measures well, but don't present it as the absolute truth, as the real basis is how it sounds. Whether you want to wait or just plug and play its all up to you..life's full of compromises. In this hobby its best to have an open mind and hear before you believe or decide if its good for you. to those who couldn't hear the difference between ss and tubes...lucky guys

[rtsy]

I had lots of misconception before so I went around to learn. I learned a lot from other members and trying out different gears.
...
Get info from reliable experienced people and read informative articles.
...
I dont want other people to decide based on misconception.  

its good to know whats behind it or how they will say an amp will sound good if it measures well, but don't present it as the absolute truth, as the real basis is how it sounds.
...
In this hobby its best to have an open mind and hear before you believe or decide if its good for you.

Above are golden nuggets of wisdom for audio hobbyists at all levels.  Thanks Levi and john5479!

To nudge the thread back to "what's the biggest reason why I DIDN'T choose tube (well, at least for amps)," I'd like to share now why the single most expensive (by list price) piece of equipment in my system is a solid state power amp:

1--Doc Stereophile was quicker than me to the draw for Denis G's Conrad Johnson MV55 at Sonny Tuazon's.  (Grabe kasi talaga synergy ng CJ at ng aking chosen speakers:  Sonus Faber).

2--The next best tube amps that mate well with my speakers are way beyond my budget (Conrad Johnson CAV50 or the even dearer MV60).

3--I wanted single ended sound but don't have speakers for affordable single ended amps.  

IMHO, single ended + class A operation + zero negative feedback really preserves the energy, timing, and tone of real music.

The S/S Pass Aleph gave all the above without the triode magic (clarity, soundstage, tube rolling) but with 60wpc--more than enough to drive my86db (in)sensitive speakers in a small room.  

This to me was a sufficient enough compromise so here dear friends is why I don't have tubes in my power amp.  (Binawi ko na lang sa pre-amp at DAC!)  

On a side note, negative feedback is a good example of something that measures good but doesn't quite hit it right musically.  Applying negative feedback on a circuit greatly reduces distortion numbers which in theory should make for a more accurate amp.  

I read some tech geeks try to explain this phenomenon as the feedback loop screwing up the temporal dimension of the music.  I'll leave the explaining to them.  

To my ears, what I hear is a reduced sense of impact that I hear most obviously on percussion instruments.  With negative feedback, snare drums are not as crisp, the piano sounds like a thick layer of felt was placed between the hammers and the strings, bass slaps are not as defined.