Author Topic: CD PLAYER/DAC MOD  (Read 65360 times)

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Offline simonzaide

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Re: CD PLAYER MOD
« Reply #150 on: Jul 11, 2010 at 12:03 PM »
hi

im not sure if im posting this on the right thread but i was wondering if you can point me to someone who i can convert my cd players to 220 from 100 volts ? also is this safe ba ?

any idea how much it would cost ?

Offline rascal101

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Re: CD PLAYER MOD
« Reply #151 on: Jul 11, 2010 at 01:15 PM »
Near the intersection of Ronquillo and Sales Street in Quiapo is a place you can have the transformer converted from 100V to 220V. Not sure about the cost though.

If conversion is done properly, there should be no issues.
« Last Edit: Jul 11, 2010 at 01:33 PM by rascal101 »

Offline rascal101

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Re: CD PLAYER MOD
« Reply #152 on: Sep 13, 2010 at 04:36 AM »
I am seeing a proliferation of CDPs and external DACs with high # of bits eg 24 and with 192KHz sampling frequency.

Let's try to break it down to have an idea

24 bits
---------
Using a 2.5V reference, 1 bit is

2.5/2^24 = 0.15uV or 150nV

Using a 5V reference, 1 bit is

5/2^24 = 0.298uV or 300nV

192KHz
----------
192/44.1 = 4.3 or ~4X sampling frequency

Based on this, the questions are:

1. Is is possible for a CDP or external DAC to achieve 150nV or 300nV accuracy?
- To do this the temperature of the Audio DAC must be constant at all times (everytime actually)
- The band gap reference must be very, very accurate
--- Is it better than the bandgap being used on a A/D or D/A Automated Tester where the bandgap is separate and has a fixture maintaining constant temperature at all times?
--- At this level, it is already better than some of the reference calibration equipment (costing many, many thousands of dollars) used by semiconductor companies for their automated testers. Is it?
- The supply voltage to the Audio DAC must be constant at all times (despite fluctuating AC voltage)
- It is approximating tester fixture engineering (again costing many thousands of dollars)? Is it?

2. With many CDPs featuring 1X (no oversampling), 2X, 8X or even 16X oversampling, are we to believe 4X oversampling is better? Why 4X?

Last question with ordinary DVDs featuring this 24bit/192KHz, what is the differentiation between good and bad if electronic engineering wise both are same, difference is few parts eg capacitors etc.
« Last Edit: Sep 13, 2010 at 05:38 AM by rascal101 »

Offline Stagea

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Re: CD PLAYER MOD
« Reply #153 on: Sep 13, 2010 at 09:13 AM »

It is true that most CDPs that have 24-bit DACs could not reliably resolve all the gradations of 24-bit. However they almost always do not have to, because the source recording itself is a limitation. The plain oversampling (and upsampling) features just shift the aliasing noise away from the audible band, so that it can be fairly harmlessly filtered off (and at a low cost at that). A lot of the data is just digitally repeated in lower-cost players.

Most that do have 24-bit capable DACs actually still run them at 16-bit anyway, fed at redbook sampling rates (and the DAC internally oversampling 2x, 4x, 8x or more… 88kHz, 176kHz, 352kHz, etc.), instead of the advertised 24 bits and 96kHz or 192kHz sampling (DAC input capability, not actual operation).  This is true whether the DAC internally handles the data in native PCM, or uses pulse-proportion modulation (very popular nowadays… mostly on those that claim high multiples of oversampling). It does happen that today’s higher grade DACs are capable of high bit depths and sampling rates, so that can be a justification for the marketing highlight of a “24-bit/192kHz” DAC. Why do DAC makers design their mainstream chips to take 24-bit/192kHz? Because it’s the highest resolution consumer spec (utilized on DVD-A, Bluray and Studio Master Downloads).

There are some that run upsampling, which can do a “non-integer oversample” using a separate chip (and thus changing the DAC's input data feed to 16-bit 96kHz/192kHz). The biggest advantage of using these chips is reclocking, as this tends to reduce both transport and interconnect/interIC jitter (the transport will thus run asynchronously with the DAC). Still fewer use outboard oversampling, which does synchronous integer upsampling before feeding the DAC (because it may reduce native jitter versus having the DAC chip do all the oversampling, and/or it runs the DAC closer to its optimal sampling rate without the losses of upsampling).

Aside from conventional upsampling, some higher end products are now employing stronger processors (Anagram modules with SHARC DSPs are frequently in these devices) that actually convert the data to a very high feed rate with little loss (and bypassing the DAC’s built-in oversampler altogether). These DSPs run at 32-bit or 40-bit internally, and plot the input data points to its internal memory then intelligently outputs a “clean” waveform in the target resolution (upto 24-bit 384kHz and 24-bit 768kHz are fairly common implementations these days). The final resolution is often the maximum capability of the installed DAC chip/s without oversampling. The processing allows for a smoother output (more usable data points derived for the DAC's use), which should theoretically be closer to an analogue waveform. High end outboard DACs often have this functionality as well. When you look at players with this functionality, they tend to be overbuilt and are made with very tight tolerances, so as not to waste the resolution at hand. Sure it may still not be a reliable true 24-bit quality output on the analogue end, but you can tell where a big chunk of your money went.

Not counting the differences on the analogue side (higher end CDPs now often use capacitorless data paths), it is clear that manufacturers are going lengths to extract “better” data from relatively low resolution CDs. It still can’t be as good as a true high resolution format, but as good video upsamplers can enhance video data, so can good audio processing techniques (given that they remain largely non-intrusive).

As for the difference between CDPs and DVDPs, budget CDPs are very much like DVDPs with some different components.  A very basic difference is that most CDP transports read at 1x (most DVDPs read CDDA at 1x).  DVDPs, often having to run at a higher speed, stop and start reading as their FIFO buffer gets filled and emptied. A problem is that the CD spec (unlike the DVD spec) does not require block-accurate addressing. The address information is frequently pulled out of the subcode channel, so the DVDP may incorrectly identify the exact start of each block (the one just after it stopped reading). This can cause doubled or lost samples. This is a more difficult problem to address than just the plain transport jitter from 1x CDDA-only transports.

Offline rascal101

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Re: CD PLAYER MOD
« Reply #154 on: Sep 13, 2010 at 09:38 AM »
There are many types of DACs and I think you only have to look to Google to find out that there is basically nothing new since the early 90s.

I think the point here is why advertise on DAC or DSP capability when there are many gating factors or the DAC or DSP is not operating at its full capability.

Offline Stagea

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Re: CD PLAYER MOD
« Reply #155 on: Sep 13, 2010 at 10:01 AM »
There are many types of DACs and I think you only have to look to Google to find out that there is basically nothing new since the early 90s.

New DAC designs are mostly refinements of old ones. There are quite some improvements in measured performance, especially in terms of dynamic range and noise floor, distortion, and crosstalk. Not to mention that new ones run much higher internal clocks (allowing support for higher resolution and wider bandwidth material). Cars and computers these days are mostly refinements of prior models, yet you can't deny that they've gotten better.

Unfortunately, the CD source is truly becoming the limiting factor of these designs. They're like V12-engined cars running at speed limits designed for 80s econoboxes. They can still can do many things better, but they're artificially capped by that limitation.

I think the point here is why advertise on DAC or DSP capability when there are many gating factors or the DAC or DSP is not operating at its full capability.
They just advertise the DAC spec because it's there, and it sells. That's like a compact car fitted with Y-rated tires - it does not mean that the car actually goes 300KPH.

Offline rascal101

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Re: CD PLAYER MOD
« Reply #156 on: Sep 13, 2010 at 10:12 AM »
I guess it's all business at the advertising front then.

Offline rascal101

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Re: CD PLAYER MOD
« Reply #157 on: Sep 13, 2010 at 01:00 PM »

Offline rascal101

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Re: CD PLAYER MOD
« Reply #158 on: Oct 25, 2010 at 07:40 AM »

Offline rascal101

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Re: CD PLAYER MOD
« Reply #159 on: Feb 01, 2011 at 06:00 PM »
Here is a nice project for us ...

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/diyaudio-com-articles/172983-zen-i-v-converter.html

On my Sony CDP-750 and CDP-950 ...

I did not practice this but did a tweak by improving the tolerance of the resistor on the I-V op-amp and I noticed very good improvement.
« Last Edit: Feb 02, 2011 at 08:35 PM by rascal101 »

Offline rascal101

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Re: CD PLAYER MOD
« Reply #160 on: Apr 21, 2011 at 05:25 AM »
Currently reading the converter section ...

http://www.analog.com/library/analogdialogue/archives/43-09/linear_circuit_design_handbook.html

This compliments the Linear Design Seminar handbook I have from Analog Devices.


Offline rascal101

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Re: CD PLAYER MOD
« Reply #161 on: Apr 22, 2011 at 05:53 AM »

Offline rascal101

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Re: CD PLAYER MOD
« Reply #162 on: Jun 08, 2011 at 04:44 AM »
I hope that someone can provide good reference on the computation of the capacitor or capacitors values that need to be placed in parallel with the output coupling capacitor. The write-up from Walt Jung on picking capacitors is good but somehow there is something missing. This is what I think.

Should it be Y / 1,000? Or, Y / 20,000? Or Y / 50,000 - with Y being the value of the output coupling capacitor?

« Last Edit: Jun 09, 2011 at 03:36 AM by rascal101 »


Offline rascal101

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Re: CD PLAYER MOD
« Reply #164 on: Jun 20, 2011 at 02:25 PM »
Thanks.

Unfortunately, those links do not tell about the proper or exact amount of capacitance you need to put in parallel for an existing capacitor. Reference design manuals/guidebook or application notes, textbooks, journals etc typically have recommendations. I am looking for is a design guidebook that has these computations.
« Last Edit: Jun 20, 2011 at 02:39 PM by rascal101 »

Offline edwin

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Re: CD PLAYER MOD
« Reply #165 on: Jun 20, 2011 at 04:19 PM »
Thanks.

Unfortunately, those links do not tell about the proper or exact amount of capacitance you need to put in parallel for an existing capacitor. Reference design manuals/guidebook or application notes, textbooks, journals etc typically have recommendations. I am looking for is a design guidebook that has these computations.

For me, a 10000uf caps, i bypass with a 0.1uf caps or between 0.1uf to 1uf will do. You can do your math from here.
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Offline AppleMan

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Re: CD PLAYER MOD
« Reply #166 on: Jun 20, 2011 at 06:08 PM »
For MARANTZ CD Player Modifications and Tweaking:


http://www.raylectronics.nl/index_en.html

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Offline ATJr.

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Re: CD PLAYER MOD
« Reply #167 on: Jun 30, 2011 at 03:13 PM »
hi

im not sure if im posting this on the right thread but i was wondering if you can point me to someone who i can convert my cd players to 220 from 100 volts ? also is this safe ba ?

any idea how much it would cost ?

converting japan traffo to 220 volts...

i got a cd player from the pier, it has a 100volt "japan standard" power traffo...
now as a rainy day project, i decided to convert it to 220 volts...

after dismantling the traffo from the cd player, i dipped the traffo assembly into a can full of lacquer thinner, but first i also dismantled the mounting brackets...i left it to stay for more than 48hours...

something like this:




notice that there is a thermal fuse connected, it is still good so we are going to re-use it:

next comes counting the primary turns using my rewinding machine:

turned out that the traffo had 848 turns or turns per volt = 8.48, now the average voltage at my sockets is 225 so therefore i needed 1908 turns.
the original wire size was #30, therefore i needed to use a #33 wire, rule of thumb, is 3 wire sizes thinner to convert to local voltage.
finished coi:










« Last Edit: Jul 01, 2011 at 07:34 AM by TonyT »
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Offline ATJr.

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Re: CD PLAYER MOD
« Reply #168 on: Jul 01, 2011 at 07:33 AM »
installed in the cd player:






« Last Edit: Jul 01, 2011 at 07:36 AM by TonyT »
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Offline rascal101

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Re: CD PLAYER MOD
« Reply #169 on: Jul 03, 2011 at 12:28 PM »
Great job!

It would be nice if we also had a winding machine and know how to properly wind a transformer.

Offline Wildfire™

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Re: CD PLAYER MOD
« Reply #170 on: Jul 03, 2011 at 01:02 PM »
brader tonyt pwede bang palitan lang ung traffo para maging 220v? or may iba pang papalitan?

Offline ATJr.

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Re: CD PLAYER MOD
« Reply #171 on: Jul 03, 2011 at 01:41 PM »
brader tonyt pwede bang palitan lang ung traffo para maging 220v? or may iba pang papalitan?

pwede, kaso multi-taping kadalasan....madali naman na magconvert...kaya gawin sa raon yan while you wait...
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Offline AppleMan

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Re: CD PLAYER MOD
« Reply #172 on: Jul 04, 2011 at 09:42 PM »
^_^ Problema lang pag-di pantay-pantay ng maayos yung I & E may ugong tsaka malakas uminit transfo. ;D
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Offline Wildfire™

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Re: CD PLAYER MOD
« Reply #173 on: Jul 04, 2011 at 09:48 PM »
mahirap din pala kailangan kakilala gagawa  ;D

Offline ATJr.

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Re: CD PLAYER MOD
« Reply #174 on: Jul 05, 2011 at 06:40 AM »
^_^ Problema lang pag-di pantay-pantay ng maayos yung I & E may ugong tsaka malakas uminit transfo. ;D

pwede ibalik pag ganyan.....
yung Podmon sa legarda, malapit sa bustillos recomendado sa mga conversion ng traffo...doon ako nagpapagawa pag sobrang busy na ko..
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Offline dyonge

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Re: CD PLAYER MOD
« Reply #175 on: Aug 28, 2011 at 08:27 AM »
hi to all.
ask ko lang baka pwede ako magpa modify any of these players: kenwood dp-57 ; jvc xl -v211; nakamichi cd 4. which of these is worthy of modification? magkano po kaya? thanks.

Offline dyonge

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Re: CD PLAYER MOD
« Reply #176 on: Aug 28, 2011 at 08:27 AM »
hi to all.
ask ko lang baka pwede ako magpa modify any of these players: kenwood dp-57 ; jvc xl -v211; nakamichi cd 4. which of these is worthy of modification? magkano po kaya? thanks.

Offline rascal101

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Re: CD PLAYER MOD
« Reply #177 on: Aug 29, 2011 at 06:31 PM »
I believe the best candidate for modification is the Nakamichi CD-4. 

I think the cost depends on what modification you would like to achieve. Further I think the bigger the improvement the higher the cost.

Offline dyonge

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Re: CD PLAYER MOD
« Reply #178 on: Aug 30, 2011 at 07:51 AM »
sir thanks sa quick reply. nag pm po ko.

Offline AppleMan

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Re: CD PLAYER MOD
« Reply #179 on: Sep 14, 2011 at 08:02 PM »
Meron po bang modification para sa PHILIPS SACD1000 ?

Salamat po.... :)
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