Topic: OPPO DV983H

[barrister]

The answer will have to be on a per-title basis. 

You will have to research on the internet.  There's no other way around it.

For example:

If you have Saving Private Ryan, that's good enough, since no remaster is forthcoming.  It may be an old release, but the first SD DVD release is the best and only version available.

If you have the latest R3 version of Con-Air, know that it's an antique.  The improvement on the remastered DVD must be seen to be believed:     

[streetsmart]

Yes, this will be interesting too I'm also keen to see the difference of a newer SD movie (which has PQ improvement over older SD titles) vs Blu-ray.

Paul, I still buy a lot more SD titles than BD or HD. I havent found an SD disc which is CLEARLY better than Fifth Element Superbit. Maybe MIB 1 Superbit is equally good.

The point is that even if Fifth Element Superbit is a relatively old disc, I still find it to be THE reference material.

Of course there may be some SD disc out there which is way better but I haven't seen it yet. 

[pchin]

Paul, I still buy a lot more SD titles than BD or HD. I havent found an SD disc which is CLEARLY better than Fifth Element Superbit. Maybe MIB 1 Superbit is equally good.

The point is that even if Fifth Element Superbit is a relatively old disc, I still find it to be THE reference material.

Of course there may be some SD disc out there which is way better but I haven't seen it yet. 

Yup, I agree Fifth Element Superbit is still one of the TOP reference DVDs. No doubt about that.

However, not all movies nowdays are released in "Superbit" format. For the benefit of those who are sitting on the SD fence, I'm just curious how the "recent" SD movies PQ as Atty barrister suggested earlier esp those discs came from the same high def master hence not much difference btw SD vs HD. Also, some members say the SD PQ nowdays are much better than before (probably near Superbit quality?) thus, there's no urgency to migrate to HD yet as in atty barrister & MAtZTER's case . 

Perhaps to be fair to both SD & BD, we shouldn't just select the best SD discs to compare to HD...I'm sure the difference will certainly won't be that big. This will reinforce SD supporters' stand.  Probably it's best to select randomly SD samples from recent releases. e.g. If 7 out 10 SD DVDs tested PQ are "near HD" or "pretty good" then there's really no hurry to go HD.... otherwise it's justified to convert to HD or is it??  

So hopefully Mark will be able to shed some light for us.

[Moks007]

Few weeks ago or last month, I bought the What sound and vision magazine and there is an sd vs hidef comparison. 3 judges. They were using the 50 inch pioneer kuro and Marantz dvd 7001 ata. ( I have to go look for the magazine again in my bookshelf and maybe I can scan and post it here? ) I'm still busy now with my newborn baby,  but will find time. Anyway the result was 2 out of 3 of the judges say diff is small or not much. They could be bias, I really don't know if we should take their word for it. This magazine has some issues with their rating I think. But I think on the big screen like those projectors you can really see a big difference. When I was at streetsmarts place during the EB, I clearly saw the diff when playing both the Fifth element Superbit and BD. Sharper talaga bd..Even the sound I can hear the diff, much sharper din. This again is where I think the "good enough" phrase comes in. In 50 inch and below, which most of the people own, How big is the diff between BD and a great dvd player like the newly affordable 983?

By the way they were using training day with Denzel Washington as reference

[streetsmart]

I'm still busy now with my newborn baby

Uy! May baby ka na!! Congrats! 

Cigars ba or chocolates ang pamigay mo?

[streetsmart]

Yup, I agree Fifth Element Superbit is still one of the TOP reference DVDs. No doubt about that.

However, not all movies nowdays are released in "Superbit" format. For the benefit of those who are sitting on the SD fence, I'm just curious how the "recent" SD movies PQ as Atty barrister suggested earlier esp those discs came from the same high def master hence not much difference btw SD vs HD. Also, some members say the SD PQ nowdays are much better than before (probably near Superbit quality?) thus, there's no urgency to migrate to HD yet as in atty barrister & MAtZTER's case . 

Perhaps to be fair to both SD & BD, we shouldn't just select the best SD discs to compare to HD...I'm sure the difference will certainly won't be that big. This will reinforce SD supporters' stand.  Probably it's best to select randomly SD samples from recent releases. e.g. If 7 out 10 SD DVDs tested PQ are "near HD" or "pretty good" then there's really no hurry to go HD.... otherwise it's justified to convert to HD or is it??  

So hopefully Mark will be able to shed some light for us.

Now, I understand your point, Paul. This is getting very complicated! 

[Moks007]

Uy! May baby ka na!! Congrats! 

Cigars ba or chocolates ang pamigay mo?

hehe..thanks baby girl, chocolates nalang. Will bring to the shootout hehe..Invited ako ha.  ..

[barrister]

However, not all movies nowdays are released in "Superbit" format. For the benefit of those who are sitting on the SD fence, I'm just curious how the "recent" SD movies PQ as Atty barrister suggested earlier esp those discs came from the same high def master hence not much difference btw SD vs HD. Also, some members say the SD PQ nowdays are much better than before (probably near Superbit quality?) thus, there's no urgency to migrate to HD yet as in atty barrister & MAtZTER's case . 

Actually, Superbit is yesterday's gimmick.

I've been itching to post something about Superbit for the longest time, I just didn't know where to post it.  This may be slightly OT, but I guess this would be a good time to discuss it, since we're discussing how the quality of the SD DVD can affect the upscaling performance of the Oppo.  


=========================================================


The maximum peak bitrate for SD DVD is 9.8 Mbps.

Professionally encoded DVDs, which comply with proper DVD specs, have a very safe average bitrate of 4 to 5 Mbps for relatively static content; and, to avoid pixellation, a maximum average bitrate of 7 to 8 Mbps for high-action content.

Encoding at rates higher than those specifications results in lower compatibility with various players, and increases likelihood of buffer underruns.

DVD specifications from mpeg.org: http://www.mpeg.org/MPEG/DVD/Book_B/Video.html

According to this site: http://people.csail.mit.edu/tbuehler/video/MPEG-2.html, a major concern is that high bitrate encodings sometimes result in juddering/stuttering and skipping. To avoid this, a maximum average video bitrate of 7 Mbps is recommended; or up to 8 Mbps for high-action content.

When DVD was introduced, the early encodings had an average bitrate of about 3 to 5 Mbps.

Columbia TriStar Home Video, a division of Sony, introduced a premium DVD brand, and called it "Superbit".  Since the DVD standard can handle up to 8Mbps,  Superbit DVDs improve picture quality over a standard DVD edition feature by increasing the bitrate of the encoded video to a safe maximum average bitrate of 7 Mbps.  Audio formats of both Dolby Digital and DTS 5.1 were made mandatory on Superbit titles.

According to Superbit, their DVDs are encoded at a bitrate approximately twice as high (6-7 Mbit/s) as standard DVDs, which helps minimize artifacts caused by video compression and allow the image to be pre-filtered less prior to compression, which results in more detail. To maximize space for the main feature, static menus are used and commentary tracks are removed.

The high bitrate slightly improved picture quality; however, the complaint against Superbit was the lack of special features. 

Soon thereafter, titles such as "Gladiator" showed Superbit how it should be done.  Universal released Gladiator in a 2-disc DVD with a healthy bitrate, with both DD and DTS, and with a load of special features.  Other studios followed with their own 2-disc versions. 

Superbit slowly became irrelevant.  Other studios can release multiple-disc versions with 8 Mbps bitrates, with DD and DTS soundtracks and special features.  What's so great about Superbit with 8 Mbps bitrate and no special features?  They can't go higher than 8Mbps without causing playback problems on existing DVD players, so they're stuck with a spec that no longer commands a premium.

Realizing their irrelevance, the Superbit line followed up with Superbit Deluxe, which bundled a Superbit-quality feature with a second disc containing the special features.

What's so great about that?  Other studios had already been doing the same, and without the Superbit price tag premium.  Today, 8 Mbps bitrates or slightly higher are common for new releases of regular SD DVDs.

Finally realizing that they can no longer charge a premium for something that other studios can do at regular prices, Sony Pictures discontinued the Superbit line on January 18, 2007.
 
Sony officially drops Superbit line
Brand was an 'interim bridge' toward high-defintion Blu-ray Disc
By Susanne Ault -- Video Business, 1/18/2007

JAN. 18 | Sony Pictures Home Entertainment has retired its Superbit line in order to promote its Blu-ray Disc format.

The studio’s last produced new Superbit disc was the April 2005 release of theatrical circus series Cirque du Soleil.

http://www.videobusiness.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA6408427


When they dropped the Superbit, Sony's official line was, “It was always an interim bridge strategy to get people excited about what high-def would be looking like in 2006 and 2007”. 

[streetsmart]

Nice and informative!

If we don't use Fifth Element Superbit, which titles do we use for comparing SD and BD?

I have "The Patriot" and "2001" in both formats. However, the SD versions aren't really new.

[streetsmart]

hehe..thanks baby girl, chocolates nalang. Will bring to the shootout hehe..Invited ako ha.  ..

Sige. Deal. Yung mahal na chocolate, ha! 

[barrister]

If we don't use Fifth Element Superbit, which titles do we use for comparing SD and BD?

Fifth Element Superbit vs Blu-ray is good.  I'm very much in favor of it, even if it's an old title.  In fact, the advantage of an old title is that the judges are likely to be already very familiar with the scenes.

What I don't like is the impression that the best DVD encodings are found on Superbit titles.  That may have been true in the early days of the format, but it's definitely not true anymore.

That's why I posted this:

You might also want to check the SD DVD's average bitrate using:

DVD Bit Rate Viewer (for PC): http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Video/Other-VIDEO-Tools/DVD-Bit-Rate-Viewer.shtml
MacDVDBitrateParanoia (for Mac): http://web.mac.com/altero/altero/Soft_EN.html

to convince other members that the bitrates of Superbit titles are no better than the bitrates of new non-Superbit SD releases.  Thus, the name "Superbit" has become laughable today ---- there's certainly nothing "super" about its "bits" anymore  .

Other suggested titles might be useful for those with high end upscalers who want to compare using their own setups.  A good rule of thumb is to choose titles released in both formats simultaneously, since it's likely that they were encoded from the same master.

Examples:

Ratatouille                  - SD Nov. 6, 2007; BD  Nov. 6, 2007;
300                           - SD Jul. 31, 2007; BD Jul 31, 2007;
I am Legend                - SD Mar. 18, 2008; BD Mar. 18, 2008;
Pirates of the Carrib. 3  - SD Dec. 4, 2007; BD Dec. 4, 2007;
Troy Director's Cut       - SD Sep. 18, 2007; BD Sep. 18, 2007.

[Moks007]

Sige. Deal. Yung mahal na chocolate, ha! 

hehe sure..I might have some discs na SD and Bluray..I have Independence day (the five star collection ata that came out years years ago). On another note, I think we should just use regular sd's  comparing to blu bec we want to find out how big is the difference between the two in real world situation meaning the hibit dvds or great master dvds like the I am legend dvd mentioned above are not common among other dvd titles. I may be wrong here tho.. The real good quality or great copy sd's are only a limited few which won't be a big factor comparing to bluray in the real world imo..

We can compare maybe the following:
Region 1 or 3 sddvd versus blu
Pirates Carribean series
Training day
Casino Royale
Ratatouille
and think of a title that is just 3 star or lower in blu in hidefdigest. I can't think one off hand

DVD performance wise I  have Lord of the rings twin towers extended. If you guys don't have this let me know, I will bring it. PQ is great on this imo

[danrd]

Mukhang naging complicated na issues mga kapatid. May I suggest something? Since this is strictly a "DVD players standoff", why don't you just simply compare connect all these players on a full hd plasma or lcd using a not so popularly known PQ movie like "Superman returns" Whatever player brings out the best in its crappy PQ wins. I think it would be best if its that simple. IMHO 

[barrister]

  Korek!

Umpisahan na!  Hindi na pinagtatagal yan!!! 

[Moks007]

Mukhang naging complicated na issues mga kapatid. May I suggest something? Since this is strictly a "DVD players standoff", why don't you just simply compare connect all these players on a full hd plasma or lcd using a not so popularly known PQ movie like "Superman returns" Whatever player brings out the best in its crappy PQ wins. I think it would be best if its that simple. IMHO 

That's true, but I think the bd vs. sd goes hand in hand here, while the 983 is there for comparison hehe... It will be time consuming but we can take the winner of the shootout or just the 983 and compare it to bluray towards the end and let all the judges see how big the difference is. We can then determine the following: Of course bd vs. sd will just be the opinion of those who are there but at least we will have an idea.
1. Winner, the best dvd in the shootout
2. How big is the difference between the winner and bluray
3. For those waiting for bluray prices to come down or don't want to jump in yet. Which player is the closest to hd quality?

[barrister]

Well, iniiwasan lang natin na may magsabing defective daw ang shootout. 

Two parts kasi ang testing.

Part 1 is the SD upscaling shootout, no Blu-ray involved.  Tapos na tayo sa parameters nito.

Part 2 is the SD vs. Blu-ray, which will attempt to answer just how good Blu-ray really is when compared to a well-mastered SD DVD. We're attempting to define the parameters on this one.

We expect Blu-ray to perform better.  But if the SD DVD is a poorly-encoded old release, then the comparison is unfair.  Will the results be closer if we used a newly-remastered SD, or a new release of a new movie?  If so, which SD title should we use?  That's what we're finalizing here.

Pero sa totoo lang, naiinip na rin ako ... 

 

[streetsmart]

Well, iniiwasan lang natin na may magsabing defective daw ang shootout. 

Two parts kasi ang testing.

Part 1 is the SD upscaling shootout, no Blu-ray involved.  Tapos na tayo sa parameters nito.

Part 2 is the SD vs. Blu-ray, which will attempt to answer just how good Blu-ray really is when compared to a well-mastered SD DVD. We're attempting to define the parameters on this one.

We expect Blu-ray to perform better.  But if the SD DVD is a poorly-encoded old release, then the comparison is unfair.  Will the results be closer if we used a newly-remastered SD, or a new release of a new movie?  If so, which SD title should we use?  That's what we're finalizing here.

Pero sa totoo lang, naiinip na rin ako ... 

 

Wala pa ang Oppo 983 ni Paul. Meron lang si Oreoshake, e nasa Davao naman sya. 

Di ko pa maisip paano gawin ang SD-BD comparison. I am thinking of using only one parameter and that would be detail. Other parameters kasi (contrast ratio, color accuracy) may be influenced by other factors such as the players and the projector.

Play a 5-minute scene?

[frootloops]

I will wait for this shootout, or better yet join,  then decide wether to get the 983 or not. Kasi the reason for my previous question on the ratio of DVD's that will be satisfying on this player is, lets say I have 50 SD's, and only 10 of them will be convincing since the rest are just standard releases..sayang lang. What more if you have hundreds. 

I suggest to get good quality (unlike those high bitrates) normal title DVD's which most people has, then compare. Kasi from my understanding (correct me if Im wrong), this shootout is to determine wether the 983 will be at par or just even be close to BD in PQ in terms of upscaling. Do you think getting a high bitrate/Superbit titles would be fair? Parang may konting daya na kasi.  or how about picking up a title at random (first), then do the high bitrates/Superbits later. 

Salamat po.

[barrister]

Wala pa ang Oppo 983 ni Paul. Meron lang si Oreoshake, e nasa Davao naman sya. 

Ganun ba? 

Ok lang sir, intay intay na lang.  Malapit na naman yung kay sir Paul.

Anyway, we can use the time to finalize testing methods.

Di ko pa maisip paano gawin ang SD-BD comparison. I am thinking of using only one parameter and that would be detail. Other parameters kasi (contrast ratio, color accuracy) may be influenced by other factors such as the players and the projector.

Play a 5-minute scene?

Yes, just choose a scene, play the same scene on both formats, then score with the same criteria used for the upscaling shootout. 

Do you think getting a high bitrate/Superbit titles would be fair? Parang may konting daya na kasi.  or how about picking up a title at random (first), then do the high bitrates/Superbits later. 

If BD is compared with a poorly mastered DVD, we already know that the result will be a night and day difference in favor of BD, so why bother?

If BD is compared with some of the best DVDs presently available, we still know that BD will be better, but we want to know just how much better BD is going to be.

[frootloops]

If BD is compared with a poorly mastered DVD, we already know that the result will be a night and day difference in favor of BD, so why bother?

If BD is compared with some of the best DVDs presently available, we still know that BD will be better, but we want to know just how much better BD is going to be.

Definitely we should not consider the poorly mastered DVD, the Ratatouille you mentioned would be a good referrence. Now I will just wait and see the difference in ratio, kung mga 70-80% close  , pwedeng pwede na.  many thanks sir barrister. 

[barrister]

That's right, Ratatouille is an amazing piece of work.  Image Depth (3D effect) is a marvel of animation done right.

And don't think animation demos are just gimmicks for appliance store showrooms.  They are in fact very good test materials because they have a tendency to show not only the best capabilities but also the worst flaws of players, display devices and compression methods, if you know what to look for.

Animation traditionally has highly saturated colors.  Ironically, it is precisely the high saturation in animation that causes its video flaws to be more obvious.

For example, Pixar's Cars has very good picture quality, but there's still a compression flaw ---- look for posterization.  It's hard to find, but it's there.

Chroma Upsampling Error, also known as "Chroma Bug" or "CUE", is also easier to detect in animated features.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_2/dvd-benchmark-special-report-chroma-bug-4-2001.html

Now I will just wait and see the difference in ratio, kung mga 70-80% close  , pwedeng pwede na. 

I'm anxiously awaiting the official results.  Picture quality might be very close, depending on the viewing distance.

About The Fifth Element Superbit vs remastered BD, sir Matz had this to say:

This is a good test, it was a bit difficult for me to spot the difference at streetsmart's setup.

The results might yet surprise us .... 

[streetsmart]

Definitely we should not consider the poorly mastered DVD, the Ratatouille you mentioned would be a good referrence. Now I will just wait and see the difference in ratio, kung mga 70-80% close  , pwedeng pwede na.  many thanks sir barrister. 

I have the BD of Ratatouille. We need someone to bring the SD version.

[pchin]

Other suggested titles might be useful for those with high end upscalers who want to compare using their own setups.  A good rule of thumb is to choose titles released in both formats simultaneously, since it's likely that they were encoded from the same master.

Examples:
Ratatouille                  - SD Nov. 6, 2007; BD  Nov. 6, 2007;
300                           - SD Jul. 31, 2007; BD Jul 31, 2007;
I am Legend                - SD Mar. 18, 2008; BD Mar. 18, 2008;
Pirates of the Carrib. 3  - SD Dec. 4, 2007; BD Dec. 4, 2007;
Troy Director's Cut       - SD Sep. 18, 2007; BD Sep. 18, 2007.

Good suggestion here. I have the following BD: I am Legend & Pirates of the Carrib 3.

Hope someone has the SD copies.

[barrister]

I have "The Patriot" and "2001" in both formats. However, the SD versions aren't really new.

2001 would be good, as long as the SD is the 2-disc version. 


    BD                   SD 2-disc

2001 was released simultaneously on SD, BD and HD DVD on Oct. 23, 2007. 




The Patriot might not be good. 

The SD closest to the BD version should be the latest Unrated Extended SD.  Internet reviewers say that the latest SD is a new print, not just the same Superbit version plus additional scenes. 


   BD                    SD Unrated Extended

But the 2 formats were released 1 year apart (BD July 3, 2007; SD Unrated Extended April 25, 2006), so I'm worried that the SD and BD might not match. 

[barrister]

..I might have some discs na SD and Bluray..I have Independence day (the five star collection ata that came out years years ago).

Now there's another reason why the SD vs BD shootout is important.

The new SD versions of ID4 have the extended cut.  The BD version only has the theatrical cut.

If you prefer the extended cut, will your present SD player be good enough, or would you rather get a high end upscaler? 

Or would you rather wait for an ID4 Extended Cut on BD?  You know they released the BD as a theatrical-cut because they wanted you to double dip on another BD release, right? 
   

[streetsmart]

I just tested my SD versions of "2001" and "The Patriot." Both are pretty dated and it shows in the pq. Compared to BD, its like night and day. This is even after doing the best possible tweaks on my video processor. I was actually pretty surprised at how good the BD versions were. 

I think that barrister is right - in order to have a fair comparison, the SD versions must be pretty recent. We should consider that BD is less than 2 years old so its unfair to compare it to a 7-year old SD.

Ergo, so far, the only good SD vs BD comparison is "Fifth Element."

[Moks007]

I tested the Independence day sd last night comparing it on the pioneer dv600 vs the toshiba a35. The a35 is really sharper and has a cleaner picture. No contest talaga, like I stated/observed before. Just based on this player alone it is already a worthy/magnificent upgrade viewing on my 46 inch lcd. (Thats just me).. I think this has the abt chip also like the 983. The 983 is way better pa so I'm already concluding hehe that the 983 is a "no brainer" purchase ..I wanna get this already  Even on old dvd copies they already look pretty good on my a35, mas lalo the new copies. Now if toshiba can do better with their so called super upconvert I might just go for this until blu discs prices and standalones come down some more. I'm waiting now to see which is better 983 or the super upconvert coming soon.  ..This shootout you guys will do is an excellent test for all of us. (more eyes than just one) By the way I did not compare it to the ps3 bec I really use that for BD and games. If its better than the 983 I will still get a standalone dvd player bec I'm conserving the lens of my ps3 hehe. I don't think I wanna buy another ps3 just for dvd viewing, I also want all region player.

I already compared the Independence day bluray and the sd. I have to say its really no match. Close up on the actors/actresses faces look really good on SD but on far shots, buildings, scenery etc. It's really no match. So like you guys say, it might not be fair to compare old copies to the blurays. But to me the improvement already using my a35 is already significant, although I wouldn't know how much better pa if I compared it to the hiend Denon or Marantz. But this abt chip really looks magnificent. Maybe reon is better, I wouldn't know. I don't have one of those players hehe.. How I wish I have

[pchin]

Here's a summary comparison chart of all three OPPO players (DV-983H, DV-981HD and DV-980H) for those who who are thinking which model to get.

http://www.oppodigital.com/dv980h/dv980h_comp.asp

[streetsmart]

Paul, when is your Oppo 983 arriving? I sense that people are getting impatient. 

Do you have BD or HD versions of Kingkong, Batman Begins or MI3? I have the SD versions and they are pretty good. These could be used for comparisons.

I also have the SD and HD versions of "300" but I doubt if that is a good film to use for comparisons cuz the contrast is purposely too high. Also purposely grainy.

[pchin]

Paul, when is your Oppo 983 arriving? I sense that people are getting impatient. 

Do you have BD or HD versions of Kingkong, Batman Begins or MI3? I have the SD versions and they are pretty good. These could be used for comparisons.

I also have the SD and HD versions of "300" but I doubt if that is a good film to use for comparisons cuz the contrast is purposely too high. Also purposely grainy.

Hopefully today or tomorrow JAC will notify me....I'm already tired of waiting na..hay!

Yes, I have Kingkong, Batman Begins & MI3 (all in HD DVD). All these movies have great PQ.

Agree on the 300. The film is intentionally filled with sepia-toned hue for artistic purpose thus will be hard to compare.