Topic: Vintage/surplus vs. Current CDPs, kindly share your listening impressions

[romymartinez]

I haven't owned a current production CDPs (NAD, Cambrdge, Rotel, etc.), but I'm dreaming of getting one, when funds become available.

When I started this audio hobby last year, my first player is a universal player Pioneer DV-667A which got good feedback in this forum for its audio performance (it has Burr Brown DAC).

Then I tried a surplus CDP, (a circa 2000 JVC XL-V313, most probably entry level unit) which sounded OK but I preferred the sound from the Pioneer.

Then I got a vintage 1991 CDP, a Denon DCD-670, with Burr Brown DAC and opamps. It sounded better than the Pioneer.

Now I'm wondering how much improvement would I get if I will upgrade to an entry level current production CDPs.

For those who have owned both vintage and current CDPs, your impression is highly appreciated.

My current system:
Source: Pioneer DV-600A, vintage Denon DCD-670
Preamp: DIY Foreplay 3 inspired 2x12au7, OD3 regulated
Power amp: DIY EL34 SE (loaned from alexg) 6 wpc, vintage SS Sony TA-3200F 100 wpc
Speakers: vintage Jensen Model 1 8" fullrange bookshelfs, vintage Pioneer CS-88 3 way speakers with 12" woofers
Generic and DIYed cables, wires

Thanks

romymartinez

[rascal101]

I have not owned current production CDPs but I have heard from a number. Based on listening impressions, it depends. If you compare entry level CDPs today vs vintage entry level CDPs, sound is similar. However, it is my impression that vintage high end CDPs sounds more analog than current production high end CDPs. However, I could be wrong because I have only heard very few current production high end CDPs whereas I have heard more vintage high end CDPs. So in this regard, I may be biased.

[ProtegeManiac]

I've owned a vintage Onkyo cdp (circa 1995) which was the top of the line Onkyo then, and now own an entry-level Sony sacdp (bought this since its only $10 more than the cdp). I think the differences are more from engineering preferences of each brand. My Onkyo sounds a lot like the current Onkyos, only the midrange is "warmer" and louder but vocals are not necessarily more "forward". The Sony I haven't tried on sacd's, but on cd's, has a much more detailed low end, my system's overall response dips lower now, bass isn't thumping like my Pioneer dvd player but definitely more detailed and more articulate, especially the bass guitar. on the top end notes from metal strings sound waaay more metallic than the Onkyo, depends on your preferences whether you'd think the Onkyo made the strings sound like nylon or the Sony is just "brighter".

What the Onkyo definitely had over the Sony was its convenience with CD-R's. for some bizaare reason the player that came out before the CD-R is less picky once you use it regularly, which I noticed after using it for a month and then had problems reading after I forgot to use it for two weeks. The Sony, I don't know if it's the SACD lens or what, can only read CD-R's right after it was switched on. Not even gold label music CD-R's solved that problem.

[romymartinez]

This is a very old thread but I would just like to share some impressions.

I recently got a preowned entry level CDP Harman Kardon HD 970 from a fellow PDVD member. This circa 2005 EISA awardee is in the sampe price and performance class as NAD C542 and Cambridge Audio 640C. Not very known locally and in US, but was quite popular in Europe. Uses top of line AD1955 DAC (found in Cambridge Azur 840C) and decent analog stage (OP275 in I/V, OPA2134 in output buffer).

Vintage CDP I have at the moment is Denon DCD-1610 also from a fellow PDVDer, built in 1988 with 90K Yen SRP, competing with Sony CDP-338ESD at that time. This built like a tank 12kg monster uses 2 x PCM64P DAC. Sir ferds way back last year upgraded 6 pcs of op-amps from NE5532/5534 to OPA227/2227 and disabled the mute circuit.

Well, to my newbie ears, the Harman CDP is not better than the Denon - and vice versa.  They just sound different from each other. The newer Harman Kardon seems more detailed and 'spacious' while the Denon sounds more dynamic and has better bass. For vocals and acoustic jazz I seem to prefer the Harman Kardon, but for rock I like the Denon.

[odyopayl]

I started with this hobby during my early days, at that time I can only afford the surplus things, I am one of the tambay at Pier wherein you can check the latest imports
Then here comes the entry level CD players and now I'm into separates (Transport+DAC).
Basically the difference is more on technology 1bit to 4 bit to 8 bit until 24 bit players and now we have the upsampling  of 192khz and some have higher than this.
Dont forget the quality of the newer OpAmps and newer and better Capacitors and of course better clock which affect the so called Jitter.
These are the noticeable difference I've heard:
Details - Definitely newer models got better details
Channel Separation - Newer Model got very good channel separation wherein you can clearly localize the location of each instruments including the vocals.
Resolution of Music - This might be related to details in General layering is visible with the new CD players.

Newer CD players are really  have Low noise and have darker background compared to older one.
All of the above comparisons are all based on my own experience.

By analogy with this digital thing 1megapixel pics have bigger difference with the 10megapixel. Digitals are encoded binary 0 & 1 to decode it you need a good and accurate reader and for music the timing (clock) is important and of course the conversion from Digital to Analog. In general, technology brings bigger factor on improvements when it comes to the sound it produce compared to the older model (vintage). If you ask me for the durability and robustness of build? that's different story

[macdon]

I started with this hobby during my early days, at that time I can only afford the surplus things, I am one of the tambay at Pier wherein you can check the latest imports
Then here comes the entry level CD players and now I'm into separates (Transport+DAC).
Basically the difference is more on technology 1bit to 4 bit to 8 bit until 24 bit players and now we have the upsampling  of 192khz and some have higher than this.
Dont forget the quality of the newer OpAmps and newer and better Capacitors and of course better clock which affect the so called Jitter.
These are the noticeable difference I've heard:
Details - Definitely newer models got better details
Channel Separation - Newer Model got very good channel separation wherein you can clearly localize the location of each instruments including the vocals.
Resolution of Music - This might be related to details in General layering is visible with the new CD players.

Newer CD players are really  have Low noise and have darker background compared to older one.
All of the above comparisons are all based on my own experience.

By analogy with this digital thing 1megapixel pics have bigger difference with the 10megapixel. Digitals are encoded binary 0 & 1 to decode it you need a good and accurate reader and for music the timing (clock) is important and of course the conversion from Digital to Analog. In general, technology brings bigger factor on improvements when it comes to the sound it produce compared to the older model (vintage). If you ask me for the durability and robustness of build? that's different story

Good day sir Odyopayl and my apologies if this is OT........but I'm a bit intrigue on using a separate DAC.

My Marantz cd6002 uses proprietary HDAM (Hyper Dynamic Amplifier Module) than OpAmps and its DAC is a Cirrus Logic CS4398 24-bit/192Khz. Would I still benefit from a separate DAC?

Separate DACs are indeed pricey, so I wanted to get your input if my 6002 can still benefit from having a separate DAC and if that benefit justifies the current prices of separate DACs these days.

[ProtegeManiac]

Good day sir Odyopayl and my apologies if this is OT........but I'm a bit intrigue on using a separate DAC.

My Marantz cd6002 uses proprietary HDAM (Hyper Dynamic Amplifier Module) than OpAmps and its DAC is a Cirrus Logic CS4398 24-bit/192Khz. Would I still benefit from a separate DAC?

Separate DACs are indeed pricey, so I wanted to get your input if my 6002 can still benefit from having a separate DAC and if that benefit justifies the current prices of separate DACs these days.

sayang lang D/A conversion ng Marantz mo. personally, I'd rather use a used DAC with a 10-yr old plus (preferably Japanese and surplus) CDP. why? it's a good way of using a working, well designed, well-dampened transport that has an already outdated D/A section.

right now Im using a Sony XE700 and EAD1000 DAC. compared to the Onkyo I posted above, this sony has more weight and authority to its bass and more forward vocals. Using the DAC, the Sony sounds just a tick better, with deeper bass and better staging.

[romymartinez]

I started with this hobby during my early days, at that time I can only afford the surplus things, I am one of the tambay at Pier wherein you can check the latest imports
Then here comes the entry level CD players and now I'm into separates (Transport+DAC).
Basically the difference is more on technology 1bit to 4 bit to 8 bit until 24 bit players and now we have the upsampling  of 192khz and some have higher than this.
Dont forget the quality of the newer OpAmps and newer and better Capacitors and of course better clock which affect the so called Jitter.
These are the noticeable difference I've heard:
Details - Definitely newer models got better details
Channel Separation - Newer Model got very good channel separation wherein you can clearly localize the location of each instruments including the vocals.
Resolution of Music - This might be related to details in General layering is visible with the new CD players.

Newer CD players are really  have Low noise and have darker background compared to older one.
All of the above comparisons are all based on my own experience.

By analogy with this digital thing 1megapixel pics have bigger difference with the 10megapixel. Digitals are encoded binary 0 & 1 to decode it you need a good and accurate reader and for music the timing (clock) is important and of course the conversion from Digital to Analog. In general, technology brings bigger factor on improvements when it comes to the sound it produce compared to the older model (vintage). If you ask me for the durability and robustness of build? that's different story

Hi Sir,

Can you possibly compare specific models? Say a Sone ES agains a Cambridge Azur maybe? 

Thanks!

[romymartinez]

Good day sir Odyopayl and my apologies if this is OT........but I'm a bit intrigue on using a separate DAC.

My Marantz cd6002 uses proprietary HDAM (Hyper Dynamic Amplifier Module) than OpAmps and its DAC is a Cirrus Logic CS4398 24-bit/192Khz. Would I still benefit from a separate DAC?

Separate DACs are indeed pricey, so I wanted to get your input if my 6002 can still benefit from having a separate DAC and if that benefit justifies the current prices of separate DACs these days.

Hi Sir,

From the spec sheet, Marantz uses top notch CS4398 DAC. What needs to be improve would be analog section and power supply perhaps. I've read somewhore (can't find it at the moment) that the overall sound of a CD-based audio source is influenced by the transport (20%), DAC (20%), Analog stage (30%) and power supply (30%).

Had the chance to directly compare two vintage CDPs with mods: (1) Denon DCD-1610 mentioned above with opamp upgrade and (2) Sir alexg's Denon DCD-590 tweak with tube (6n1p) analog stage (original analog stage completely bypassed).

DCD-1610 / DCD-590
Weight: 12kg / 4kg
Transport: KSS-151A (TOTL considered as one of the best if not the best) / KSS-240A (entry level)
Vintage: 1988 80,000yen SRP / Vintage 1991(?) 30,000 (?) yen SRP
DAC 2 x PCM64 DAC (top of the line at that time / 1 x PCM61 (entry-level

Sound?
The vintage entry level Denon blows away the bigger Denon, due to its better analaog stage (tube). 

[romymartinez]

Good day sir Odyopayl and my apologies if this is OT........but I'm a bit intrigue on using a separate DAC.

My Marantz cd6002 uses proprietary HDAM (Hyper Dynamic Amplifier Module) than OpAmps and its DAC is a Cirrus Logic CS4398 24-bit/192Khz. Would I still benefit from a separate DAC?

Separate DACs are indeed pricey, so I wanted to get your input if my 6002 can still benefit from having a separate DAC and if that benefit justifies the current prices of separate DACs these days.

Hi Sir,

A bit OT but speaking of external DAC, fellow member Sir bass_nut is trying out an el cheapo SuperDAC Pro 707 (sold brand new order basis by a fellow member for P6,500) and was quite impressed by it. Sir bass_nut owns a top of line Cayin CDT-17A player. Maybee we can ask him for his impressions.

[macdon]

sayang lang D/A conversion ng Marantz mo. personally, I'd rather use a used DAC with a 10-yr old plus (preferably Japanese and surplus) CDP. why? it's a good way of using a working, well designed, well-dampened transport that has an already outdated D/A section.

right now Im using a Sony XE700 and EAD1000 DAC. compared to the Onkyo I posted above, this sony has more weight and authority to its bass and more forward vocals. Using the DAC, the Sony sounds just a tick better, with deeper bass and better staging.

So, you mean - wag nalang?
Maganda rin naman spec sheet ni Marantz, but was just exploring kung meron pa sya igaganda paired with an outboard DAC. But then again, hopefully there would be DACs that would be cheaper naman sana.

[macdon]

Hi Sir,

A bit OT but speaking of external DAC, fellow member Sir bass_nut is trying out an el cheapo SuperDAC Pro 707 (sold brand new order basis by a fellow member for P6,500) and was quite impressed by it. Sir bass_nut owns a top of line Cayin CDT-17A player. Maybee we can ask him for his impressions.

Thanks for your reply sir

Yes, I would be thrilled hearing from sir Bass_nut on his impressions

[ProtegeManiac]

So, you mean - wag nalang?
Maganda rin naman spec sheet ni Marantz, but was just exploring kung meron pa sya igaganda paired with an outboard DAC. But then again, hopefully there would be DACs that would be cheaper naman sana.

wag na, unless you want a lateral upgrade into a completely different flavor like non-OverSampling DAC. what I'd do is save the money to upgrade another component or for a CDP later on. if you really want to toy around with the source, you could either upgrade the opamps of the Marantz, or look for a used Musical Fidelity X10D tube buffer to help with the Marantz' analogue output.

[macdon]

wag na, unless you want a lateral upgrade into a completely different flavor like non-OverSampling DAC. what I'd do is save the money to upgrade another component or for a CDP later on. if you really want to toy around with the source, you could either upgrade the opamps of the Marantz, or look for a used Musical Fidelity X10D tube buffer to help with the Marantz' analogue output.

The Marantz 6002 doesnt use opamps, but rather HDAMs - so I wouldnt toy around with that. As for the X10D, I use to have one just literally passed thru my hands since I sold it right away.

But thanks for the reply, appreciate it

[ProtegeManiac]

The Marantz 6002 doesnt use opamps, but rather HDAMs - so I wouldnt toy around with that. As for the X10D, I use to have one just literally passed thru my hands since I sold it right away.

But thanks for the reply, appreciate it

oh yeah, forgot about that, HDAM nga pala yun 6002. did you check what caps are in there? you could swith to Panasonic power caps, then get Mundorfs for the signal path. and get a cheap, DIY power cable with good plugs and thick gauge cables.

also, dampen the chassis, like what was previously posted, try orig Dynamat. also get isolation feet/platform to isolate it from vibrations coming from the floor.

[louiesia]

i am using surplus sony cpd 222 es. dac -  2x pcm 56p-j - cx23034 kss-151a

sound quality is far better than the current expensive cpd's in the market.

[romymartinez]

i am using surplus sony cpd 222 es. dac -  2x pcm 56p-j - cx23034 kss-151a

sound quality is far better than the current expensive cpd's in the market.

Hi Sir,

Which current CDPs did you compare it with?

Thanks!

[louiesia]

its an arcam i forgot the model auditioned side together sony got more sweetness

[blues]

kamusta na meron pa ko vintage gears na for sale sori hindi na kita na i text tagal na ko silip ....john martin from calookan

[romymartinez]

OT: Hi Sir john,
Paki PM what's available 

[blues]

hello kamusta my selling gears stuff is pioneer s-45x tube rare rcvr, quad 34 preamp ss 303 power amp ss, jbl LXE550 spkr, luxman R-3045 ss rcvr, nkamichi sound space 7 spkr, monitor audio m11 spkr....... but my other hot cabs is for swap any matching item in audio brand diy spkr jbl L-123e woofer from century 100, electro voice 14x3x14 alnico horn drivers, ESS 3x3x4 bullet type horn tweeter, scott 299a tube amp integrated, marantz 2325 ss rcvr, roger sound lab studio monitor 3800 3way spkr,pioneer sx-770 ss rcvr, calrad integrated tube amp, victor nivico delmonico cabinet type with tube am/fm tube rcvr auto-ttable and 8"in alnico full-range. you can text me here 09206465742 john martin

[accastil]

The Marantz 6002 doesnt use opamps, but rather HDAMs - so I wouldnt toy around with that. As for the X10D, I use to have one just literally passed thru my hands since I sold it right away.

But thanks for the reply, appreciate it

bro, adding a DAC doesnt necessarily mean an improvement. the DAC youll be adding has a lot to do with what you really want to achieve. if your objective is to surface out more subtle nuances, quieter back grounds, then yes, add a high-end DAC and youll have these things. but if you want a change in tonality, change in stage, change in character, you first need to qualify what DAC you have to add. qualifying has no other means but to do home audition or, bringing your cdp to where the DAC is and listening to changes that the DAC would introduce as compared to a DAC-less sound.

goodluck here bro.

[Hear_me_shout]

bro, adding a DAC doesnt necessarily mean an improvement. the DAC youll be adding has a lot to do with what you really want to achieve. if your objective is to surface out more subtle nuances, quieter back grounds, then yes, add a high-end DAC and youll have these things. but if you want a change in tonality, change in stage, change in character, you first need to qualify what DAC you have to add. qualifying has no other means but to do home audition or, bringing your cdp to where the DAC is and listening to changes that the DAC would introduce as compared to a DAC-less sound.

goodluck here bro.

Nice bro allan. Naniniwala ako sayo, parang caltex with techron digital source mo eh!

[accastil]

Nice bro allan. Naniniwala ako sayo, parang caltex with techron digital source mo eh!

now i get it. eto pala ung history ng "caltex"...
sorry for the OT sir.