Topic: Hd sound formats

[Carlo777]

was in this blind test. out of almost 30 who attended, only two members got the golden ears, meaning, they got 5 out of 5 test materials on which ones are playing hd audio and which ones are playing classic (lossy) dd or dts format.

i think for materials such as concerts or musicals, this is where the hd audio might render itself more evident. but for slambang movies, i dont think you will really hear any major difference. except for adopters to be very happy that their receivers are capable of showing the "dts-ma or tru hd" on the receiver's lcd screen. i know, im one of them. 

Count my wife in! I remember she could not sleep til those DTS-MA and DolbyTrueHd lit up on the receiver and there I was saying..."Hon, will something magical spring out when we get it right"...

[iiinas]

Count my wife in! I remember she could not sleep til those DTS-MA and DolbyTrueHd lit up on the receiver and there I was saying..."Hon, will something magical spring out when we get it right"...

hahaha, i am sure anybody whose about to read this would laugh just like me, i have read countless of questions regarding this for the past years already. but when you ask someone who has already correctly set it up what the difference is, they usually cant? 

anyway, why buy the equipments if you cant have it working properly. 

[jerix]

i think for materials such as concerts or musicals, this is where the hd audio might render itself more evident. but for slambang movies, i dont think you will really hear any major difference. except for adopters to be very happy that their receivers are capable of showing the "dts-ma or tru hd" on the receiver's lcd screen. i know, im one of them. 

Agree 1000% that is why i bought the onkyo 608.. now i am not yet 100% satisfied because that DTS-tru hd has yet to appear on my receiver despite buying a new 1.3b hdmi cable. 

[iiinas]

Agree 1000% that is why i bought the onkyo 608.. now i am not yet 100% satisfied because that DTS-tru hd has yet to appear on my receiver despite buying a new 1.3b hdmi cable. 

hi sir jerix,

please ensure the following:

on player - make sure audio is set to bitstream to receiver
on receiver - make sure hdmi input will accept both both video and audio (some of the inputs are defaulted to use the optical inputs for audio).

[jerix]

ill try again bro -- thanks!!

[Carlo777]

@iiinas or barrister or anyone

My wife and I spent the New Years eve debating on whether we should "bitsream" our PS3 or leave it to my preferred Linear PCM. At Linear PCM the AVR does not light up the the DD/DD-TrueHD/DTS and DTS-HD Master, but I could hear all the Blu-Ray options sound effects which are absent when you set them to bitstream.

I gave way because she threatened not to give me the New Year evening special if I didn't stand down Anyway, the evening was great and now that the smoke is clear I'd like to clarify some issues which require expert opinion/s

-When set to Linear PCM, the PS3 will do the decoding of the sound instead of the AVR. Since, the PS3 does the job it should also take the credit. Who does a better job at decoding anyway? The player or the AVR?

-Linear PCM is supposed to be uncompressed lossless, while dd-truehd and dts-hdma are also lossless but compressed. Shouldn't Linear PCM have an advantage here?

Thanks guys

[iiinas]

@iiinas or barrister or anyone

My wife and I spent the New Years eve debating on whether we should "bitsream" our PS3 or leave it to my preferred Linear PCM. At Linear PCM the AVR does not light up the the DD/DD-TrueHD/DTS and DTS-HD Master, but I could hear all the Blu-Ray options sound effects which are absent when you set them to bitstream.

I gave way because she threatened not to give me the New Year evening special if I didn't stand down Anyway, the evening was great and now that the smoke is clear I'd like to clarify some issues which require expert opinion/s

-When set to Linear PCM, the PS3 will do the decoding of the sound instead of the AVR. Since, the PS3 does the job it should also take the credit. Who does a better job at decoding anyway? The player or the AVR?

-Linear PCM is supposed to be uncompressed lossless, while dd-truehd and dts-hdma are also lossless but compressed. Shouldn't Linear PCM have an advantage here?

Thanks guys

really depends on the player and receiver.

based on reviews, they say the ps3 does pretty good in decoding the hd audio material, that having said. the next thing to ask is will it be better than my receiver's decoding capabilities. imho, mid to high end receivers might have the advantage here since most of these models utilizes better dacs and as a result might output a better sounding track than the ps3.

so my answer is really if you think for now the better sounding option is the ps3 then i suggest you use that.

[Carlo777]

really depends on the player and receiver.

based on reviews, they say the ps3 does pretty good in decoding the hd audio material, that having said. the next thing to ask is will it be better than my receiver's decoding capabilities. imho, mid to high end receivers might have the advantage here since most of these models utilizes better dacs and as a result might output a better sounding track than the ps3.

so my answer is really if you think for now the better sounding option is the ps3 then i suggest you use that.

What about you boss? Do you prefer DD and DTS over Linear PCM or vice versa?

[barrister]

I gave way because she threatened not to give me the New Year evening special if I didn't stand down

You did the right thing, my friend ...    

-When set to Linear PCM, the PS3 will do the decoding of the sound instead of the AVR. Since, the PS3 does the job it should also take the credit. Who does a better job at decoding anyway? The player or the AVR?

-Linear PCM is supposed to be uncompressed lossless, while dd-truehd and dts-hdma are also lossless but compressed. Shouldn't Linear PCM have an advantage here?

Theoretically, I think they're the same because it's always going to be in PCM.

When the player does the decoding, the compressed data is converted by the player into PCM, then the PCM is sent to the receiver.  This is a lossless process, meaning that when the compressed data is uncompressed into PCM, you get the original data again, without loss.

When the player streams the compressed data to the receiver, the receiver uncompresses the bitstream to PCM.  This is also a lossless process, where the receiver uncompresses the data back into PCM, without loss.

So either way, the compressed stream will have to be converted to PCM, whether the uncompression is done by the player or by the receiver.

If you prefer to use player-uncompressed PCM so you can have access to all interactive program material, then in-player decoding is the option for you.  

However, there's no basis for believing that you're getting better audio by letting the player do the decoding.  The data will still have to be converted to PCM whichever way you go.

As for which chipset is better, "Sir Terrence" of bluray.com has this to say:

"There is no super duper decoding chips in receivers. Generally the same decoding chipset you see in the player is the same as you see in the receiver. The conversion process in the player and the receiver is the same(conversion to PCM). Both are lossless."

http://forum.blu-ray.com/home-theater-general-discussion/32961-player-decoding-receiver-decoding-question.html#post535303
http://forum.blu-ray.com/insider-discussion/31894-ask-questions-audio-insider-sir-terrence.html

That guy is an industry insider.  He mixes sound for BD masters.

imho, mid to high end receivers might have the advantage here since most of these models utilizes better dacs and as a result might output a better sounding track than the ps3.

The DAC is different.  That involves digital-to-analog conversion.  The digital data is converted to analog before it can be amplified.

If the compressed signal is bitstreamed by the player to the receiver, the receiver converts the signal to PCM.  The PCM signal is still digital.  The receiver then uses its DAC to convert the digital PCM to analog, then the analog signal is amplified.

If the player does the conversion to PCM, the player sends the PCM to the receiver, which is still digital.  Then the receiver uses its DAC to convert the digital PCM to analog for amplification.

In either case, the receiver already has the same digital PCM file before it applies its DAC for analog conversion.  So either way, you end up with the same thing.

[iiinas]

What about you boss? Do you prefer DD and DTS over Linear PCM or vice versa?

i prefer my receiver's decoding.

[gaol]

The A200 already indicates DTS-HD or TrueHD through the content info but my AVR is 20th century, so it can only pick-out the DTS core (1.5mbps) and DD5.1 respectively.  I havent actually heard HD audio sound coming out from the A200.  "Look only but no hear" bale..hehehe.  Try to ask the member Gaol as his set-up is capable of confirming this.

Confirmed. The Denon AVR4310 displays the HD audio format when sent over by the A200 although I can't think of specific examples right now.

really depends on the player and receiver.

based on reviews, they say the ps3 does pretty good in decoding the hd audio material, that having said. the next thing to ask is will it be better than my receiver's decoding capabilities. imho, mid to high end receivers might have the advantage here since most of these models utilizes better dacs and as a result might output a better sounding track than the ps3.

so my answer is really if you think for now the better sounding option is the ps3 then i suggest you use that.

I haven't gone through the effort of comparing, but here is what I've observed: the soundtrack of Grand Turismo 5 sounds really fantastic! It's sent over by the PS3 as multi-channel (7.1) PCM.

For BD movies using the PS3, I've set it to bitstream (to see the HD audio format shown on the receiver mainly too hehe) and it sounds great too.  

[Carlo777]

@barrister

Great info as usual! Ok, let me see if my not too bright brain "decoded" your info correctly. It does not matter if the player or the AVR does the decoding because at points end, it all comes out as PCM. So, if the end product is the same from eggs to duck, why then is there a need to have multiple ways of doing it? And what then, is the essence of having 2 rival HD sound formats like DD-TrueHD and DTS-HDMA? (Pretty idiotic questions out of my igloo)

I'm new to all these things, but for someone who never appreciated sound systems - What I'm hearing from an entry level HTIB (Onkyo S3300) is really something that is pleasing to my ears. Looks like a new venture or quest is on the way.

I'm excited

[barrister]

So, if the end product is the same from eggs to duck, why then is there a need to have multiple ways of doing it? And what then, is the essence of having 2 rival HD sound formats like DD-TrueHD and DTS-HDMA? (Pretty idiotic questions out of my igloo)

Definitely not idiotic.  In fact, those are the next questions that should logically follow:

(a) Why do the player and the receiver both have the capability to decode, if decoding by either player or receiver will give you the same end result?  (b) Why are there 2 lossless compression formats, if uncompression from either format will give you the same end result?  

Decoding capability for the receiver is a marketing ploy.  If the consumer is given a choice between a receiver that can decode lossless audio and a receiver that cannot, more will buy the receiver with decoding capability.  No manufacturer wants to be left behind by the competition.  They will keep making receivers with that capability even if it's not necessary for the great majority of Blu-ray players.  

As for Dolby vs. DTS, the two competing companies existed during the days of lossy compression, when there was an actual and measurable difference between the two codecs.  As a result, consumers were divided into the pro-Dolby camp and the pro-DTS camp.

When the specs of BD were being drafted, the Blu-ray Disc Association had to include support for both in order to satisfy the pro-Dolby and the pro-DTS camps.  That way, they increase the likelihood of market acceptance when they introduce BD to consumers.

In other words, the short answer is simply this:  Marketing.

I'm new to all these things, but for someone who never appreciated sound systems - What I'm hearing from an entry level HTIB (Onkyo S3300) is really something that is pleasing to my ears. Looks like a new venture or quest is on the way.

I'm excited

I've been wondering all this time why you didn't care much for home theater audio.  

Try watching a good movie with great audio and your involvement in the movie will be so much deeper.  Without good audio, you'll be missing half of the experience.

If you need top-notch set-up advice, the right persons to ask are streetsmart, iiinas and Stagea, among others.  If you need only the basics, ask me ...  

[Carlo777]

@barrister

I heard you there buddy! Now, for blind preferences, do you prefer Dolby TrueHD over the DTS HD counter part? Or vice versa?

About having my HTIB, the reason I got hooked was because I was watching one my wife's blu-ray movies. The title being "30 days of nights", now I was never the type would would be freaked out of any show.

With a surround sound system I got jerked by one of the scenes, which was due to the intense sound effects. You're right about about me missing half the experience, and it looks like I'll be watching them horror movies again...This time with a new perspective and literally lending ear to the program;)

[barrister]

Now, for blind preferences, do you prefer Dolby TrueHD over the DTS HD counter part? Or vice versa?

I prefer Dolby TrueHD.

But it's not popular among enthusiasts.  They think it's low-tech simply because the bitrate is low.

About having my HTIB, the reason I got hooked was because I was watching one my wife's blu-ray movies. The title being "30 days of nights", now I was never the type would would be freaked out of any show.

With a surround sound system I got jerked by one of the scenes, which was due to the intense sound effects. You're right about about me missing half the experience, and it looks like I'll be watching them horror movies again...This time with a new perspective and literally lending ear to the program;)

It's good to start with HTiB first, so you don't get techno-shock by immediately starting with AV receivers and big speakers.

In the coming months, try auditioning mid-end set-ups at audio-video stores. 

When you feel you're getting dissatisfied with HTiB sound, try an upgrade.  Then try watching a good horror movie in a dark room ...     

[Carlo777]

@barrister

Man, I feel like a Hillbilly not knowing these things! Anyway, a good portion of my life was spent in Tennessee, so that just about covers the hill part (still have the accent) .

Speaking about Tennessee, our old house over there reveals some gear left over by my brother, who, at one point in his life, was interested in these home theatre stuff.

A quick inventory reveals:

1X Pioneer Elite VSX-82TXS AVR
Def Tech towers 2300 C/L/R
Martin Logan Descent Subs

They're pretty much in the 2007 era, now, are they worth bringing over to our islands?

Thanks partner!

[iiinas]

@barrister

Man, I feel like a Hillbilly not knowing these things! Anyway, a good portion of my life was spent in Tennessee, so that just about covers the hill part (still have the accent) .

Speaking about Tennessee, our old house over there reveals some gear left over by my brother, who, at one point in his life, was interested in these home theatre stuff.

A quick inventory reveals:

1X Pioneer Elite VSX-82TXS AVR
Def Tech towers 2300 C/L/R
Martin Logan Descent Subs

They're pretty much in the 2007 era, now, are they worth bringing over to our islands?

Thanks partner!

if you can get the speakers and the sub here at minimum cost possible, i think the def techs and the martin logan sub is still definitely worth using. but in the case of the receiver, i suggest you get a newer hdmi based receiver already with auto room correction feature already. onkyo, denon, yamaha, harman kardon and pioneer all have auto room correction in their receivers today.

[Carlo777]

if you can get the speakers and the sub here at minimum cost possible, i think the def techs and the martin logan sub is still definitely worth using. but in the case of the receiver, i suggest you get a newer hdmi based receiver already with auto room correction feature already. onkyo, denon, yamaha, harman kardon and pioneer all have auto room correction in their receivers today.

I guess, our old Pioneer AVR won't light up those HD sound formats

[iiinas]

I guess, our old Pioneer AVR won't light up those HD sound formats

haha, that's for sure.

but speakers and subs usually outlast receivers in terms of usage. as long it is use accordingly then these components will last long.

but as for receivers, with technology changing so fast. for enthusiasts, changing their receivers once in every two years is not uncommon.

[barrister]

Man, I feel like a Hillbilly not knowing these things! Anyway, a good portion of my life was spent in Tennessee, so that just about covers the hill part (still have the accent) .

I saw that plasma review you uploaded on youtube.  You didn't sound like a redneck ... (Joke lang po ...  )

Speaking about Tennessee, our old house over there reveals some gear left over by my brother, who, at one point in his life, was interested in these home theatre stuff.

A quick inventory reveals:

1X Pioneer Elite VSX-82TXS AVR
Def Tech towers 2300 C/L/R
Martin Logan Descent Subs

They're pretty much in the 2007 era, now, are they worth bringing over to our islands?

No, I'd buy new stuff here if I were you.  It's not like you're going to be bringing in a little iPod dock.  Those things are huge and heavy.  

The receiver is high-end, but you might not be happy with that model because receivers get old really fast.  If you get a new one here, it will have all the latest features, and it will also be a 220 volt/60Hz model.

About the Def Tech and Martin Logan, they're high-end, but that's no guarantee that you''ll like how they sound. What if after all the trouble you had to go through shipping them here, it turns out that you don't like the sound?  

Besides, I don't think you can find a service center here if something goes wrong with them.  

[warmaster]

sa DVDlagi kong hinahanap yung dts because of the volume boost. i replayed some of my dvds through a weak jvc htib (resident evil trilogy, fantastic four, dream catcher and pear harbor). i appreciated the more quiter scenes as they tend to give the best ambience with any surround on. i'm pretty sure the lossless audio will also shine during the quiter moments when you hear expertly placed sound effects of birds chirping, the crackling pebbles under leader shoes etc. just my two cents until i get to experience it myself when my blu ray player arrives and once i geta decent audio system

[Hero33]

I just had to butt-in and give my thank yous for this wonderful and delightful discussion on high definition audio.

Thanks to Carlo, IInas and Barrister for updating my audio knowledge on the new codec and decoders. Haven't updated my Onkyo since I got 5.2 for my videogames.

For those I missed, thanks as well, this short thread brought back to life my new goal of upgrading my system.

I should not have expected any less from a forum that got me buying two wdtv lives and a popcorn hour a200 in two weeks time.

Keep it up guys, hope you can bring in more tech for the average ht guy.

[Carlo777]

@barrister

I try to keep the hillbilly talk under close check but when I get excited it pops out of nowhere! Sad about them audio gears, my brother told me they cost top dollar back then.

Any blu-ray recommendations for horror movies with very good HD sound? I mean, if ever I'd pop butter for bacon on a new sound system, I don't like it to end up just playing Dragon Ball Z. Which my wife has been watching since Christmas, and it's driving me nuts already!

Also, you mentioned Dolby TrueHD having a lower bitrate, and the consequences of which is/are?

@iiinas

I've been hearing about HDMI handshake issues for HDMI based AVRs, and it's something that concerns me. What exactly is it for audio? And just how bad can an HDMI handshake issue be?

@Hero33&warmaster

Thank you for the comments.

[Clondalkin]

I think all those compression techs as far as audio is concerned are similar to NAB (non alcoholic beer)

Back in the very late 80s, I remember drinking NAB but only found out that 0.0% alcohol was "allegedly" achieved by Kirin Beverage for the first time in 2008-2009.   

HD audio decoding via player vs decoding via the AVR:  I dont think any normal person would actually hear the difference.  Maybe an oscilloscope would show some differences in frequency vs amplitude curves.

[barrister]

@barrister

I try to keep the hillbilly talk under close check but when I get excited it pops out of nowhere! Sad about them audio gears, my brother told me they cost top dollar back then.

That's why I don't like high end.  Compared to mid-end stuff, high-end gear are only slightly better, yet they cost much, much more.  And when you try getting rid of those old high-end gears, they're going to be harder to sell at a fair price.  You'll eventually have to sell them at unfairly low prices if you want to get rid of them.

Any blu-ray recommendations for horror movies with very good HD sound? I mean, if ever I'd pop butter for bacon on a new sound system, I don't like it to end up just playing Dragon Ball Z. Which my wife has been watching since Christmas, and it's driving me nuts already!

I'm too new to HD audio to make good recommendations.  I'll just give you a link to avsforum's Blu-ray audio tier thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1190265

That thread is not too updated, unfortunately.

Maybe Shutter would be good:


2008, starring Joshua Jackson, directed by Masayuki Ochiai
http://www.amazon.com/Shutter-Unrated-Blu-ray-Joshua-Jackson/dp/B0019X3YXC

Also, you mentioned Dolby TrueHD having a lower bitrate, and the consequences of which is/are?

Since Dolby TrueHD compression is lossless, uncompression by either the receiver or the player should give you the same uncompressed original PCM that a DTS-HD MA uncompression would produce.

If Dolby compression produces a smaller file with a lower bitrate, it only means that Dolby's codec compresses more efficiently than DTS'.    

[Carlo777]

@Clondalkin

Nice way of putting it

@barrister

Ok, a few more questions, if you don't mind

Dolby D is from Dolby Labs, DTS is by DTS, then who makes PCM? Very very curious about these sound formats

Another observation:

When "bitstreamed", my AVR would switch from one audio format to another like:

The "Universal" Logo will be at DD 5.1, the FBI warning will be at Pro-Logic II, the movie menu will be at either "All Channel Stereo" or Pro-Logic, then when the movie starts (in this case Casino Blu-Ray) it goes to DTS-HD Master.

I mean are all those switches necessary? Hope the receiver does not quit mid way with all that kind of work

[barrister]

Dolby D is from Dolby Labs, DTS is by DTS, then who makes PCM? Very very curious about these sound formats

PCM is very old tech.  Anyone can make it.

PCM ("Pulse-code modulation") is a method used for digital representation of analog signals, invented in 1937.  It's sometimes called LPCM ("Linear pulse-code modulated audio) if the PCM comes with linear quantization.

PCM was first used as a consumer audio format when the audio CD was introduced by Sony & Philips in 1982.   Music CDs still use the PCM format today.

Browse the history of CD: http://www.1stopcdshop.com/info/historycd.cfm.htm

Another observation:

When "bitstreamed", my AVR would switch from one audio format to another like:

The "Universal" Logo will be at DD 5.1, the FBI warning will be at Pro-Logic II, the movie menu will be at either "All Channel Stereo" or Pro-Logic, then when the movie starts (in this case Casino Blu-Ray) it goes to DTS-HD Master.

I mean are all those switches necessary? Hope the receiver does not quit mid way with all that kind of work

Don't worry about it.  The receiver can take it because those operations are actually very simple.  

If the audio on the Universal Studios logo shifts to DD 5.1, it means that DD 5.1 is the only audio on the soundtrack because the studio hasn't gotten around to providing an HD audio mix for their logo yet.  So the receiver plays the legacy Dolby 5.1, which is the only soundtrack available on the video clip.

The FBI warning does not have any audio, so the receiver defaults to Dolby Pro-Logic (newer receivers default to a newer version of Dolby PL).

When Casino Royale starts, the player chooses DTS-HD MA by default, as instructed to it by the Java software on the disc.

[iiinas]

@iiinas

I've been hearing about HDMI handshake issues for HDMI based AVRs, and it's something that concerns me. What exactly is it for audio? And just how bad can an HDMI handshake issue be?

well, the handshake issue has been here a while already, and as each generation of receivers and sources are launched, the issue becomes less and less frequent.

http://www.eetimes.com/design/communications-design/4013366/HDMI-DVI-HDCP-handshake-problems--how-to-avoid-them?pageNumber=0

if you read the link (its a bit long and technical, and its dated 2007), early handshake issues usually came about because of incompatibility of the equipments involved in the chain, from the source, to the cable and of course the repeaters (receivers) since the hdmi standard during that time was changing at a rapid pace, people usually experienced handshake issues by combining different equipments with different hdmi standards, like maybe a hdmi 1.1 cable connected to an hdmi 1.2 player or receiver, once the signal in the chain can't communicate (encode and decode) well, it loses the signal and creates handshake issues.

but today, the hdmi standard is already 7 years old, although it is still evolving, it is now more stable, even manufacturers of equipments have since more or less grown into the technology. so imho, handshake issues that we have today has more to do with sub standard construction than the incompatibility issues in the past.

and the main culprit of the issue is more often than not the hdmi cable. as they say buy the cheap one and you run the risk that it will have problems with handshake when the time comes. not saying you should buy the most expensive ones, since i myself use those 250 pesos cable, if it breaks down, i buy a new one.   another issue with handshake that is cable related is the length of the cable. if you run a cable for more than 50 feet, you run the risk of losing a signal or two, that is why some big ht rooms have boosters in the middle of a long cable run to maintain the signal.  

as for what happens during a problem with handshake. for video the image goes on and off, from pictures to blue screen. for audio, definitely audio drops (no sound). i have encountered serious handshake issues with my hddvd player (a tosh player). i have since learn to deal with the annoying on and off when watching my collection of hddvds. but for my nmt and ps3, no handshake issue for me. all these sources are running through my onkyo receiver before going to my lcd panel or projector.

sorry very long post, but in essence, i think you should not be concerned with regards to the handshake issue. 90% solved by buying a new hdmi cable.  

[Carlo777]

@iiinas

Hey, don't worry about long posts. I love reading well explained articles, and it looks like we've just encountered our 1st HDMI issue. I'll let my wife post it, she can explain it better than I can

That's a great info you gave there.

Prepare for more questions

[comitatus]

glad carlo is starting to appreciate some sounds

anyway, i tested batman the dark knight returns and noticed since dalawa yung tracks nya - dd 5.1 and dd-truehd. i can't tell the diff between the two...as in parang wala talaga. don't get me wrong on a similar movie the legacy dd on blu sounds better than the legacy dd on dvd. but pag blu-ray to blu-ray, between the hd and the legacy parang pareho lang talaga.

but it FEELS really good to see those HD sound formats light up! hahahaha

also, when I press the select button on my ps3 (playing a blu-ray movie) i see the following info displayed and would simply like to know what they mean:

Dolby Digital - Multi-Channel 48KHZ 640KBPS AVC 27.7 MBPS

salamat