Topic: The Religion Thread

[barrister]

Church Places Apology To Gay Community On Billboard Along Billy Graham Parkway in North Carolina



http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/05/30/church-places-apology-to-gay-community-on-billboard-along-billy-graham-parkway-in-north-carolina-image/

Nakakatawa naman ang billboard, napakalabo ng wording...

To whom are they apologizing?  ---- ang sabi, "so many" whose "rights & equality" were taken away "in the name of God"?

Ang labo naman non.  Why not just say "sorry to gay people"?

Ang gusto yata ay billboard na politically correct?  They're nothing but cowards pretending to be fearless.

[Klaus Weasley]

North Carolina voted to ban gay marriage. They're apologizing to the gay and lesbian people who want to get married but can't because the state has banned it due to conservative Christians.

Yes, same sex marriage is an equal rights issue. If a straight man can marry a woman that HE LOVES and receive all the tax benefits and legal benefits that marriage affords, then why can't a gay man marry a man that HE ALSO LOVES and get the same benefits? So it's a CIVIL RIGHTS issue, not a religious or moral issue.

I haven't encountered a sound, logical argument against that. You can't invoke religion because government is supposed to be SECULAR. If your religion has something against gay marriage, you're free not to get gay-married. Every time I hear someone try to speak out against it without invoking religion, they often resort to slippery slope and straw man arguments.

[barrister]

North Carolina voted to ban gay marriage. They're apologizing to the gay and lesbian people who want to get married but can't because the state has banned it due to conservative Christians.

That's right.  But my point is, if they wanted to apologize to gays and lesbians, then they should have directly stated "gays and lesbians" in the billboard.  I would have had more respect for them if they did.

Instead of simply and directly saying "of gays and lesbians," ang sabi lang, "of so many" daw, using the smallest font in the whole billboard ...

Meron pang "narrow minded, judgmental, deceptive, manipulative actions" na sinasabi --- wow, kunyari matapang ...  

Let's face it.  They think it's wrong to discriminate against the LGBTs, but at the same time, they're also afraid of offending conservative Christians too much.  To me, masyadong showbiz naman yan.

I haven't encountered a sound, logical argument against that. You can't invoke religion because government is supposed to be SECULAR. If your religion has something against gay marriage, you're free not to get gay-married. Every time I hear someone try to speak out against it without invoking religion, they often resort to slippery slope and straw man arguments.

I agree.

Don't get me wrong.  I believe the state should be free to govern as it sees fit, without undue interference from religious groups.  So I really don't care if same sex marriage is allowed by government or not.

What I'm saying is, if those religious groups want to make a stand in favor of the LGBT community, they should take that stand all the way, and start by at least stating their position clearly.

    

[oweidah]

http://news.yahoo.com/serpent-handling-west-virginia-pastor-dies-snake-bite-173406645--abc-news-topstories.html

'Serpent-Handling' West Virginia Pastor Dies From Snake Bite

A "serpent-handling" West Virginia pastor died after his rattlesnake bit him during a church ritual, just as the man had apparently watched a snake kill his father years before.


like father like son. way to go!

[barrister]

From the same article:

Snake-handlers point to scripture as evidence that God calls them to engage in such a practice to show their faith in him. Mark 16: 17-18 reads, "And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Yan ang nangyayari pag hindi marunong bumasa ng bibliya.  

Matagal na ang practice na religious snake-handling based on Mark 16: 17-18.  Amerikano ang nag-umpisa , about 100 years ago by Pentecostals in the US Appalachian states.  May saltik ang mga yan.  

[bananabond]

From the same article:

Snake-handlers point to scripture as evidence that God calls them to engage in such a practice to show their faith in him. Mark 16: 17-18 reads, "And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Yan ang nangyayari pag hindi marunong bumasa ng bibliya.  

Matagal na ang practice na religious snake-handling based on Mark 16: 17-18.  Amerikano ang nag-umpisa , about 100 years ago by Pentecostals in the US Appalachian states.  May saltik ang mga yan.  

tamang tama kaka discuss lang namin to ng officemate ko(my officemate is church of god or dating daan)

because of these verses ,a few years back daw eh meron naman uminom ng lason just to prove na hidi sila mamamatay.

sir barrister, ano ba ang tunay na interpretation ng verses na ito. sabi naman ng office mate ko eh dag dag daw ito from mark 11 onwards eh dag dag na daw.

[barrister]

sir barrister, ano ba ang tunay na interpretation ng verses na ito. sabi naman ng office mate ko eh dag dag daw ito from mark 11 onwards eh dag dag na daw.

That's correct.  Dagdag nga iyon, kaya wala dapat interpretation, kasi sayang lang ang panahon mo... .

Mark 16:9-20 lang ang dagdag, hindi Mark 11 onwards.  Baka nakalimutan lang ng officemate mo ang tamang chapter and verse numbers.  I'm sure alam ng officemate mo yon, kasi kung alam niyang may dagdag sa Mark, it means hindi na siya newbie sa bibliya.  

See annotation on the New International Version: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+16&version=NIV

tamang tama kaka discuss lang namin to ng officemate ko(my officemate is church of god or dating daan)

because of these verses ,a few years back daw eh meron naman uminom ng lason just to prove na hidi sila mamamatay.

Kung Dating Daan ang officemate mo, siguro iyan yung madalas sabihin ni Eli Soriano na mass suicide sa Jonestown, Guyana, by the Peoples Temple cult led by Jim Jones.  In 1978, the members of the Peoples Temple committed mass suicide, where 909 of them died, making it the mass-suicide record-holder.

Sabi ni Eli Soriano, based on Mark 16:17-18 daw kaya sila uminom ng lason at nag-suicide, but that's not correct.  Kung ganon, e di hindi pala suicide, kasi walang deliberate intent to kill themselves.

But the cult members were not demostrating that cyanide had no effect on them.  They intentionally commited suicide so that they can "die with some dignity," because they believed they were about to be tortured and massacred by government forces.  Mark 16 had nothing to do with it.  The bible had nothing to do with it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones#Deaths_in_Jonestown

The incident is the source of the expression, "Don't drink the Kool-Aid."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_the_Kool-Aid



=================================



Walang pagtatalo na original talaga ang Mark 16: 1-8.  Pero malaki ang duda sa verses 9 to 20, which is called the "longer ending."

Bakit may duda?  Dalawa ang dahilan:


(1). There are many manuscripts that end at verse 20, but the oldest reliable manuscripts stop at verse 8.

Based on that, a reliable translation should stop at verse 8.  Unfortunately, may pangahas na scribe na nagdagdag ng verses 9-20, at nakopya na lang yon sa sumunod na manuscripts.

Pag tinapos sa verse 8, parang naputol ang composition.  Kaya may speculation na baka nasira na ang complete Mark 16 na original, at hanggang verse 8 na lang ang nag-survive.  Pero posible rin na wala namang kulang, at talagang ganon ang original ending ng Mark 16.  


(2).  Ang sinasabi sa verses 9-20 ay hindi consistent sa ibang parte ng bibliya.  Medyo advanced study na ang presentation ng inconsistencies na yon.

  

[Quitacet]

tamang tama kaka discuss lang namin to ng officemate ko(my officemate is church of god or dating daan)

because of these verses ,a few years back daw eh meron naman uminom ng lason just to prove na hidi sila mamamatay.

sir barrister, ano ba ang tunay na interpretation ng verses na ito. sabi naman ng office mate ko eh dag dag daw ito from mark 11 onwards eh dag dag na daw.

napanood ko nga dati si Bro. Eli saying na dagdag lang daw yang mga passages sa Mark, kaso yung kalaban niyang INC nakapagpakita ng video na ginagamit din nya yung mga dagdag na verses at other times in proving a point. so i don't know lol

[barrister]

Matagal ko nang napapanood si Eli Soriano, late 1980s pa sa channel 13.  Ginagamit lang niya ang Mark 16: 9-20 para ipakita na inserted verses yon.

Hindi siguro magkakamali si Eli Soriano sa verses na yon.  Kung Matthew, Mark, Luke and John lang, e memorized niya yon word for word.  

At hindi naman kasi pambihira ang ganong idea; common knowledge nga iyon sa mga bible scholars.  Mag google ka lang o kahit Wikipedia lang, lilitaw na yon e.

I'm not defending Eli Soriano, ha.  Sa katunayan, kinokontra ko nga siya sa thread na inumpisahan ko noong 2003:

http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php/topic,12294.0.html

[tigkal]

If dagdag yun, it means not true? Or may be not true?

[Quitacet]

Matagal ko nang napapanood si Eli Soriano, late 1980s pa sa channel 13.  Ginagamit lang niya ang Mark 16: 9-20 para ipakita na inserted verses yon.

Hindi siguro magkakamali si Eli Soriano sa verses na yon.  Kung Matthew, Mark, Luke and John lang, e memorized niya yon word for word.  

At hindi naman kasi pambihira ang ganong idea; common knowledge nga iyon sa mga bible scholars.  Mag google ka lang o kahit Wikipedia lang, lilitaw na yon e.

I'm not defending Eli Soriano, ha.  Sa katunayan, kinokontra ko nga siya sa thread na inumpisahan ko noong 2003:

http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php/topic,12294.0.html

sa napanood ko kasi talagang ginamit nyang batayan yun and if I remember it right, that was to answer a question from an audience and the question is not about the veracity of the said verses but he used it to prove the verses' points to answer the question.

I also watched some of the Fourth  Watch's broadcast before and I think they featured this "seemingly" selective use of those verses also by Bro. Eli

[barrister]

sa napanood ko kasi talagang ginamit nyang batayan yun and if I remember it right, that was to answer a question from an audience and the question is not about the veracity of the said verses but he used it to prove the verses' points to answer the question.

I also watched some of the Fourth  Watch's broadcast before and I think they featured this "seemingly" selective use of those verses also by Bro. Eli

Interesting.  Bihira na lang kasi akong makapanood ng Dating Daan.  Nagsawa ako around 10 years ago.

Did you see it on the Ang Dating Daan program itself, or did you see it only as featured footage on a different program such as Iglesia ni Kristo or Fourth Watch?  

There was a time when Soriano accused his enemies of featuring Ang Dating Daan footage with deliberate manipulative editing to make him look bad.  Matinding kalaban niya noon yung Ang Tamang Daan of the INC.

If dagdag yun, it means not true? Or may be not true?

Kung dagdag yon, fake yon.  Ang tunay, inspired by God.  Ang fake, tao lang ang author, walang inspiration of God.  

Wala namang masama per se kung tao lang ang author.  Ang masama, yung niloloko ang kapwa, kunyari inspired by God, hindi naman pala.

Here's another example, just to maintain your interest ---- ever heard of the controversy regarding the "Pericope Adulterae"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_the_woman_taken_in_adultery

[tigkal]

Ang akala ko pa naman original yun. Ginamit pa sa impeachment trial. Good Story though. Thanks.

[Quitacet]

Interesting.  Bihira na lang kasi akong makapanood ng Dating Daan.  Nagsawa ako around 10 years ago.

Did you see it on the Ang Dating Daan program itself, or did you see it only as featured footage on a different program such as Iglesia ni Kristo or Fourth Watch?  

There was a time when Soriano accused his enemies of featuring Ang Dating Daan footage with deliberate manipulative editing to make him look bad.  Matinding kalaban niya noon yung Ang Tamang Daan of the INC.

I really cannot remember exactly sa dami ng napanood kong iba-ibang religious programs pero unti unti may naaalala akong detalye.

sa natatandaan ko na ngayon may nagtanong pala kay Bro. Eli patungkol sa nilalaman ng Marcos 16:15-16 patungkol sa ginagawa yata ng mga Jehova's Witnesses at Mormons na naglalakad at nangangaral sa kung saan-saan na ang sagot pala niya ay hindi naman daw para sa kanila yun dahil dagdag nga daw ang talatang yun sa Biblia,

saka ko pala napanood na may revelation ang INK or Fourth Watch and I really looked for it and it so happened na sa magazine pala nila na "Ang Dating Daan" ginagamit na batayan ni Bro. Eli ang said verses na in other times ay ayaw nyang tanggapin dahil dagdag nga lang daw.


quoted from the mag;

Ang Dating Daan Magazine, issue date: February 1989, page 10:

“Yon ang kaganapan noong pagiging tunay na Born Again. Dumaan sa pagtanggap ng aral sapagkat ang pagtanggap kay Cristo ay pagtanggap sa aral. Kaya natanggap ang aral ay sinampalatayanan. Kaya sinampalatayanan ay napakinggan sa mangangaral na may karapatan. Ang karapatan ng pagtanggap ay yung nabautismuhan (Marcos 16:15-16) At sinasabi niya: “At sinabi niya sa kanila: Magsiyaon kayo sa buong sanlibutan at inyong ipangaral ang ebanghelyo sa lahat ng kinapal. Ang sumasampalataya at mabautismuhan ay maliligtas datapwa’t ang hindi sumasampalataya ay parurusahan.”


Ang Dating Daan Magazine, Issue date: January 1993, page 7:

Higit sa lahat, dapat nating isaalang-alang na ang isang napagpahayagan na at sumasampalataya na ay dapat makatanggap ng bautismo sang-ayon sa Marcos 16:15-16 na ganito ang sinasabi: “At sinabi niya sa kanila: Magsiyaon kayo sa buong sanlibutan at inyong ipangaral ang ebanghelyo sa lahat ng kinapal. Ang sumasampalataya at mabautismuhan ay maliligtas datapwa’t ang hindi sumasampalataya ay parurusahan.”
Maliwanag kung gayon na ang sumasampalataya na maliligtas ay yaong dumaan sa bautismo at ang bautismong tinutukoy dito ay ang bautismo na itinuro ng ating Panginoong Jesus.

[Klaus Weasley]

Vatican denounces nun who writes a book theologically supporting same sex marriage.

Further proof that the Vatican is a dying institution ran by old, senile men kicking and screaming themselves into irrelevancy.

[Quitacet]

Vatican denounces nun who writes a book theologically supporting same sex marriage.

Further proof that the Vatican is a dying institution ran by old, senile men kicking and screaming themselves into irrelevancy.

I am currently reading Dawkins' God Delusion ebook and when you read it in the context of what's happening in the world's religions nowadays, I can't help but think Dawkins has a point. lol

[barrister]

I really cannot remember exactly sa dami ng napanood kong iba-ibang religious programs pero unti unti may naaalala akong detalye.

sa natatandaan ko na ngayon may nagtanong pala kay Bro. Eli patungkol sa nilalaman ng Marcos 16:15-16 patungkol sa ginagawa yata ng mga Jehova's Witnesses at Mormons na naglalakad at nangangaral sa kung saan-saan na ang sagot pala niya ay hindi naman daw para sa kanila yun dahil dagdag nga daw ang talatang yun sa Biblia,

saka ko pala napanood na may revelation ang INK or Fourth Watch and I really looked for it and it so happened na sa magazine pala nila na "Ang Dating Daan" ginagamit na batayan ni Bro. Eli ang said verses na in other times ay ayaw nyang tanggapin dahil dagdag nga lang daw.


quoted from the mag;

Ang Dating Daan Magazine, issue date: February 1989, page 10:

“Yon ang kaganapan noong pagiging tunay na Born Again. Dumaan sa pagtanggap ng aral sapagkat ang pagtanggap kay Cristo ay pagtanggap sa aral. Kaya natanggap ang aral ay sinampalatayanan. Kaya sinampalatayanan ay napakinggan sa mangangaral na may karapatan. Ang karapatan ng pagtanggap ay yung nabautismuhan (Marcos 16:15-16) At sinasabi niya: “At sinabi niya sa kanila: Magsiyaon kayo sa buong sanlibutan at inyong ipangaral ang ebanghelyo sa lahat ng kinapal. Ang sumasampalataya at mabautismuhan ay maliligtas datapwa’t ang hindi sumasampalataya ay parurusahan.”


Ang Dating Daan Magazine, Issue date: January 1993, page 7:

Higit sa lahat, dapat nating isaalang-alang na ang isang napagpahayagan na at sumasampalataya na ay dapat makatanggap ng bautismo sang-ayon sa Marcos 16:15-16 na ganito ang sinasabi: “At sinabi niya sa kanila: Magsiyaon kayo sa buong sanlibutan at inyong ipangaral ang ebanghelyo sa lahat ng kinapal. Ang sumasampalataya at mabautismuhan ay maliligtas datapwa’t ang hindi sumasampalataya ay parurusahan.”
Maliwanag kung gayon na ang sumasampalataya na maliligtas ay yaong dumaan sa bautismo at ang bautismong tinutukoy dito ay ang bautismo na itinuro ng ating Panginoong Jesus.

Thanks for the info.  Ngayon ko lang nalaman na may publication din pala sila.

Kung ganon, may magazine writer lang na pumalpak, isama na rin natin ang editor nila, pero malabong kay Eli Soriano mismo nanggaling yan.  Simpleng simple kasi yon, kahit ako nga lang, hindi siguro ako magkakamali sa ganong kasimpleng principle...  

[Quitacet]

Thanks for the info.  Ngayon ko lang nalaman na may publication din pala sila.

Kung ganon, may magazine writer lang na pumalpak, isama na rin natin ang editor nila, pero malabong kay Eli Soriano mismo nanggaling yan.  Simpleng simple kasi yon, kahit ako nga lang, hindi siguro ako magkakamali sa ganong kasimpleng principle...  

I guess you're right unless Bro Eli wrote the article himself which I can't verify,

Or maybe he used to believed in such and then discovered later the fact that those verses are "additions" and stopped using them

[barrister]

Siyempre naman, there was surely a time when Soriano was not yet aware about the insertions in Mark 16.  But I think that was when he was much younger, and before he had a TV program.

Kasi noong 1980s pa lang, noong first time kong napanood sa channel 13 si Soriano, mahusay na talaga sa bibliya.  Ang payat pa nga niya noon, at ang laki ng eyeglasses ...  

At the time, sa The Plain Truth Magazine ng Worldwide Church of God ni Armstrong pa lang ako nakakakuha ng biblical principles.  I found out later na halos puro Adventist doctrines lang pala ang basis ng mga aral ni Armstrong.  Kasama sa doktrina nila ang sobrang pagsunod sa Old Testament, especially the belief in strict Sabbath-keeping.  Kaya nga bilib na bilib ako kay Soriano nang mapanood ko.  

Noong 1970s naman, nasa radio program siya ni Don Manolo Favis sa DZBB, kasama ang isang panel ng mga ministro ng iba-ibang sekta.  Matindi ang mga argumento doon.  Minsan nga, batuhan pa ng bibliya ...    Pero hindi ko pa masyadong naiintindihan ang mga debate nila, bata pa kasi ako noong panahong yon e.

  

[Quitacet]

Siyempre naman, there was surely a time when Soriano was not yet aware about the insertions in Mark 16.  But I think that was when he was much younger, and before he had a TV program.

Kasi noong 1980s pa lang, noong first time kong napanood sa channel 13 si Soriano, mahusay na talaga sa bibliya.  Ang payat pa nga niya noon, at ang laki ng eyeglasses ...  

At the time, sa The Plain Truth Magazine ng Worldwide Church of God ni Armstrong pa lang ako nakakakuha ng biblical principles.  I found out later na halos puro Adventist doctrines lang pala ang basis ng mga aral ni Armstrong.  Kasama sa doktrina nila ang sobrang pagsunod sa Old Testament, especially the belief in strict Sabbath-keeping.  Kaya nga bilib na bilib ako kay Soriano nang mapanood ko.  

Noong 1970s naman, nasa radio program siya ni Don Manolo Favis sa DZBB, kasama ang isang panel ng mga ministro ng iba-ibang sekta.  Matindi ang mga argumento doon.  Minsan nga, batuhan pa ng bibliya ...    Pero hindi ko pa masyadong naiintindihan ang mga debate nila, bata pa kasi ako noong panahong yon e.

  

Natawa ako sa "batuhan ng bibliya" part hahahahahaha

Speaking of Bro Eli? nasa Pinas na ba siya ulit?

[barrister]

AFAIK, nasa US pa rin.

Hindi na siguro makakauwi yon.  Mabigat ang kaso niya rito sa Pinas.  May 2 counts of rape na naka pending sa Pampanga RTC.  Complainant is Daniel Veridiano (yes, he's male), former Ang Dating Daan production staff.

Soriano's defense is that the charge is false, and that Veridiano made up the story to retaliate for his prior expulsion for misappropriation of funds of the Ang Dating Daan.  Unofficially, the members are saying that Veridiano is an INC stooge who filed the false charges under INC instructions.

The case was filed in 2006 in Macabebe, Pampanga.  Soriano posted a P240,000 bail in Manila in 2008.  Tapos nagtago sa US.  Nasa US pa rin hanggang ngayon.

Ironically, it was Soriano's friend Don Manolo Favis who first alleged publicly (on his radio program) that Soriano was gay, after the two had a falling-out sometime in the late 1990s.  Soriano and Favis reconciled after about a year.  In the early 2000's, the gay issue was revived by the INC over their Ang Tamang Daan TV program.

[Quitacet]

AFAIK, nasa US pa rin.

Hindi na siguro makakauwi yon.  Mabigat ang kaso niya rito sa Pinas.  May 2 counts of rape na naka pending sa Pampanga RTC.  Complainant is Daniel Veridiano (yes, he's male), former Ang Dating Daan production staff.

Soriano's defense is that the charge is false, and that Veridiano made up the story to retaliate for his prior expulsion for misappropriation of funds of the Ang Dating Daan.  Unofficially, the members are saying that Veridiano is an INC stooge who filed the false charges under INC instructions.

is Bro Eli confirmed gay?

[barrister]

No, not confirmed.

Alleged lang by his enemies.

[Quitacet]

No, not confirmed.

Alleged lang by his enemies.

I heard Willie Santiago has his own group now.

Willie Santiago is a schoolmate of mine in high school. IN fact he was a CAT officer then and mukhang hindi pa siya interesado nun sa bibliya. nagulat na lang ako nung nakita ko siya sa TV after many years.

[barrister]

Hindi ko alam yon sir.  Akala ko kasama pa ri si Willie ni Brod Eli.  Research mode muna ako.

May schoolmate ka palang celebrity sir...    Matindi rin sa bibliya yang si Willie .  

[Nelson de Leon]

AFAIK, nasa US pa rin.

Ang question, as a leader of a religious group, should he go back here in P.I. and face the charges? I think dapat siyang umuwi...

[Quitacet]

Hindi ko alam yon sir.  Akala ko kasama pa ri si Willie ni Brod Eli.  Research mode muna ako.

May schoolmate ka palang celebrity sir...    Matindi rin sa bibliya yang si Willie .  

I found this (WARNING bias against Soriano ang site): http://www.angelfire.com/lihim/116AlitanWillyDaniel.html

don't know if it's true.

eto naman si Willy speaking: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4icgmmzwwM

eto naman talagang magkaaway na sila:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeOOnOKHeWc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOUctpsc6SE



parang showbiz na yata

[barrister]

Matindi pala ang away nila.

AFAIK, nasa US pa rin.

Mali yata ako.  According to my google search, baka nasa Brazil daw (unconfirmed).  Ang mga google hits ko ay circa 2009 pa.  Pero sa youtube, meron Oct 22, 2011 upload, TV program na Portuguese-speaking.  Brazil yan, O Caminho Antigo TV program:  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjjqANMxMXc

Nobody can verify where he is as of now.

[Klaus Weasley]

What would Jesus do about homosexuality?

[barrister]

Jesus and the Papacy are not related, contrary to popular belief.