Author Topic: The Religion Thread  (Read 362114 times)

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Offline rusty

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #660 on: Aug 23, 2012 at 02:26 AM »

Spanish fresco restoration botched by amateur
Ecce Homo (Behold the Man) by Elias Garcia Martinez has held pride of place in the Sanctuary of Mercy Church near Zaragoza for more than 100 years.
The woman took her brush to it after years of deterioration due to moisture.
Cultural officials said she had the best intentions and hoped it could be properly restored.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19349921

Offline barrister

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #661 on: Aug 23, 2012 at 08:30 AM »
Attended mass yesterday. The priest said that the only reason why we should believe in God is the promise of everlasting life. Is that really the reason? Years back, a priest also said that there are 3 reasons why we believe in God.

1. So that we go to Heaven
2. So we will not go to Hell
3. Because he is God.

The reason should be because he is God. I thought priests should preach the same.. What is your reason?


If I don't believe in God, I should believe in God because He is God.  Well that doesn't even make sense.  How can "because He is God" apply to me if I don't believe in God?

That's a fallacy in logic called "Circular Reasoning."  Your conclusion is nothing but a repetition of your starting point. This is proof by assertion, or "begging the question."  You used a conclusion of an argument as a premise to that same argument.

The same with the other reasons.  

If I don't believe in God, then I also don't believe in the existence of heaven or hell.  

Now the priest says I should believe in God so that I will go to heaven and not to hell.  Nothing but "Petitio Principii" (assuming the initial point).  Kung ang starting point ko ay hindi ako naniniwala sa heaven or hell, unulit lang niya yung starting point ko.  

« Last Edit: Aug 23, 2012 at 09:38 AM by barrister »

Offline tigkal

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #662 on: Aug 23, 2012 at 12:31 PM »
I think the priest only lays down the reasons why you believe in God. If you do not believe in God, then no need for a reason why you do not believe in God, since the priest was only stating the three reasons why you believe in God. Seldom is the reason because he is God daw. Majority are those who want to go to heaven or avoid hell. Almost all religion anchors your faith to some sort of reward in the afterlife. I think there is a sect in Iraq that does not anchor on the rewards/punishment. They just preach values. No talk about heaven or hell. No talk about rewards. Is there a religion here in the Philippines that does that?

Offline barrister

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #663 on: Aug 23, 2012 at 02:50 PM »
Seldom is the reason because he is God daw.


Yet you yourself say that that the reason "should be": We should believe in God because He is God.  And that you also think priests "should preach" that we should believe in God because He is God:


The reason should be because he is God. I thought priests should preach the same..
« Last Edit: Aug 23, 2012 at 03:19 PM by barrister »

Offline rexFi

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #664 on: Aug 23, 2012 at 03:15 PM »
Yeh, for example seldom din na kelangan reason, why 1 + 1 = 2?

Nothing circular about it.

*although I had list down my other reasons though with my past post hehe
*refer to reason number 3 I guess. :D


Offline barrister

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #665 on: Aug 23, 2012 at 03:28 PM »
Yeh, for example seldom din na kelangan reason, why 1 + 1 = 2?

Paano namang naging example yon?

"1 + 1 = 2" is a provable fact and is so evident as to be accepted as true without controversy.

The existence of God is neither a provable fact nor non-controversial.

Malayo iyon sir.

« Last Edit: Aug 23, 2012 at 03:29 PM by barrister »

Offline rexFi

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #666 on: Aug 23, 2012 at 03:55 PM »
Its not a controversy to a "decided" person though, so its the same to us. :)

Believe it or not, I experienced debating 1 + 1 = 2 to some guy who's belief, well he doesn't want his belief to be labeled LOL those were the days. ^_^

could be a new ager.

anyway yeah discuss lang :D

Offline barrister

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #667 on: Aug 23, 2012 at 06:17 PM »
Its not a controversy to a "decided" person though, so its the same to us. :)

Yes, I know it's not controversial to you.  But that's not what "controversial" means.  "Controversial" means it is controversial to the group composed of reasonable persons.

Is the existence of God controversial to the group of all reasonable persons in the world?  Yes.  Some reasonable persons believe in God, other reasonable persons don't.  

Is "1 + 1 = 2" controversial to the group of all reasonable persons in the world?  No.  However, it can be controversial to a special group of loonies who believe the answer should be "3" ...  :D  But even if it's controversial to the loonies, "1 + 1 = 2" still remains non-controversial, and still remains a provable fact.  Malayong-malayo pa rin sa belief in the existence of God.

A reason to believe in God would only be relevant to the non-believer.  Why would you need a reason to believe in God if you already believe in God?

So if the reason would only be relevant to a non-beliver, let's use that reason in trying to convince the atheist.  "You should believe in God because He is God," sabi mo sa atheist.  Hindi pa rin circular reasoning yon para sa iyo?  Wala na kong magagawa sa yo sir...  :D  


================================


I have a feeling that we're not on the same page.  Did you think I was an atheist?  You will notice that I capitalize "G" when I write "God."

I believe in God, and I've been studying the bible for more than 30 years.  But it is my view that belief in God comes from faith, and that His existence cannot be proved by science or logic.

Pansinin mo yung logic mo sir, umiikot lang at laging bumabalik sa umpisa ...  ;)

 
« Last Edit: Aug 23, 2012 at 06:29 PM by barrister »

Offline Frankthetank

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #668 on: Aug 25, 2012 at 02:27 PM »
But it is my view that belief in God comes from faith, and that His existence cannot be proved by science or logic.

I wish there's a LIKE button here in pdvd.

:)
« Last Edit: Aug 25, 2012 at 02:28 PM by Frankthetank »

Offline Timithekid

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #669 on: Aug 25, 2012 at 06:27 PM »
belief in God comes from faith, and that His existence cannot be proved by science or logic.

I had a philosophy professor in college who guy nearly convinced me that there is no God, but after a good exchange with him I somehow lucked into saying my belief that there is a God comes from faith, he immediately cut me off and gave me a smile then told me we have to stop arguing, because in faith, there is no argument.
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Offline tigkal

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #670 on: Aug 26, 2012 at 10:31 AM »

Yet you yourself say that that the reason "should be": We should believe in God because He is God.  And that you also think priests "should preach" that we should believe in God because He is God:


Yes, because if you believe in God to go to heaven and avoid hell, that is simply too selfish for me.You are only thinking about yourself.

Offline Nelson de Leon

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #671 on: Aug 26, 2012 at 12:40 PM »
I think the priest only lays down the reasons why you believe in God. If you do not believe in God, then no need for a reason why you do not believe in God, since the priest was only stating the three reasons why you believe in God. Seldom is the reason because he is God daw. Majority are those who want to go to heaven or avoid hell. Almost all religion anchors your faith to some sort of reward in the afterlife. I think there is a sect in Iraq that does not anchor on the rewards/punishment. They just preach values. No talk about heaven or hell. No talk about rewards. Is there a religion here in the Philippines that does that?

I believe kinda ganito din ang Christianity dapat. Kaya nagkakaroon or gumagawa ng good works ang iba, because of the rewards. However, biblically, good works are suppose to be a normal part of our life to those who have faith. Kung baga, automatic.

Offline ATJr.

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #672 on: Aug 26, 2012 at 01:03 PM »
 I believe in GOD, but my God is different from the God of those whose religions amass wealth, engage in politics and scare you by saying that you are not saved if you don't join their religion....

 
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Offline Movie_Geek_Tom

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #673 on: Aug 26, 2012 at 01:17 PM »
I believe in GOD, but my God is different from the God of those whose religions amass wealth, engage in politics and scare you by saying that you are not saved if you don't join their religion....

 

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Offline Klaus Weasley

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #674 on: Aug 26, 2012 at 03:31 PM »
I believe in GOD, but my God is different from the God of those whose religions amass wealth, engage in politics and scare you by saying that you are not saved if you don't join their religion....

 

2 up.

Offline barrister

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #675 on: Aug 26, 2012 at 03:31 PM »
Yes, because if you believe in God to go to heaven and avoid hell, that is simply too selfish for me.You are only thinking about yourself.

Sure, but that's not the point.

The point is, it's circular reasoning to say, "man should believe in God because He is God."
« Last Edit: Aug 26, 2012 at 03:33 PM by barrister »

Offline ATJr.

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #676 on: Aug 26, 2012 at 03:51 PM »
My GOD is the Greatest!!!

The teachings of my God is not written on some books.....it is written in the hearts and minds of those who believes and have faith in HIM...

The Law of my God to all of us that believes in him is just one.....Love your neighbors as you love ME....

My God tells me to partake of the worlds riches just enough for my needs....and i never suffered from want because of this...
That's OK, you can like or dislike anything you choose. That's the wonderful thing about the freedom

Offline barrister

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #677 on: Aug 26, 2012 at 07:44 PM »
The teachings of my God is not written on some books.....it is written in the hearts and minds of those who believes and have faith in HIM...

Delikado ang ganon sir, magulo pag hindi nakasulat.

Nakasulat na nga, nagkakagulo pa rin, yun pa kayang hindi nakasulat?



The Law of my God to all of us that believes in him is just one.....Love your neighbors as you love ME....

My God says the law can be summarized in two commandments: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.  This is the first and greatest commandment.  And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Ang utos ng Diyos ko, mas mataas dapat ang pagmamahal sa Kanya kaysa sa kapwa.

Sa Diyos mo pala, ang pagmamahal sa Kanya at sa kapwa, dapat pantay lang.

Yan ang problema pag hindi nakasulat ang batayan.  Kahit kanya-kanyang kapa-kapa at haka-haka lang, puwede na rin...  :D
« Last Edit: Aug 26, 2012 at 07:46 PM by barrister »

Offline oweidah

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #678 on: Aug 26, 2012 at 08:22 PM »
I believe in GOD, but my God is different from the God of those whose religions amass wealth, engage in politics and scare you by saying that you are not saved if you don't join their religion....

 




another god worshipped by many >

Offline ATJr.

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #679 on: Aug 27, 2012 at 04:32 AM »
Delikado ang ganon sir, magulo pag hindi nakasulat.

Nakasulat na nga, nagkakagulo pa rin, yun pa kayang hindi nakasulat?



My God says the law can be summarized in two commandments: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.  This is the first and greatest commandment.  And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Ang utos ng Diyos ko, mas mataas dapat ang pagmamahal sa Kanya kaysa sa kapwa.

Sa Diyos mo pala, ang pagmamahal sa Kanya at sa kapwa, dapat pantay lang.


if my God was the same God as that of Adolf Hitler or Himler, then 6million Jews would not have died........

Quote
Yan ang problema pag hindi nakasulat ang batayan.  Kahit kanya-kanyang kapa-kapa at haka-haka lang, puwede na rin...  :D

ang mga aral ng aking Diyos ay nakasulat hindi sa alin mang aklat maliban sa puso at isipan ng mga sumasamba sa aking Diyos.....

My GOD is the Greatest!!!

The teachings of my God is not written on some books.....it is written in the hearts and minds of those who believes and have faith in HIM...

The Law of my God to all of us that believes in him is just one.....Love your neighbors as you love ME....

My God tells me to partake of the worlds riches just enough for my needs....and i never suffered from want because of this...
« Last Edit: Aug 27, 2012 at 07:13 AM by TonyT »
That's OK, you can like or dislike anything you choose. That's the wonderful thing about the freedom

Offline bumblebee

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #680 on: Aug 27, 2012 at 06:52 AM »
Ang utos ng Diyos ko, mas mataas dapat ang pagmamahal sa Kanya kaysa sa kapwa.

Sa Diyos mo pala, ang pagmamahal sa Kanya at sa kapwa, dapat pantay lang.

Yan ang problema pag hindi nakasulat ang batayan.  Kahit kanya-kanyang kapa-kapa at haka-haka lang, puwede na rin...  :D


How else do you love God, if not loving thy neighbor, by following His examples?

Offline indie boi

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #681 on: Aug 27, 2012 at 07:15 AM »
My GOD is the Greatest!!!

The teachings of my God is not written on some books.....it is written in the hearts and minds of those who believes and have faith in HIM...

The Law of my God to all of us that believes in him is just one.....Love your neighbors as you love ME....

My God tells me to partake of the worlds riches just enough for my needs....and i never suffered from want because of this...

Give this man a round of applause.

Offline barrister

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #682 on: Aug 27, 2012 at 07:16 AM »
if my God was the same God as that of Adolf Hitler or Himler, then 6million Jews would not have died........

Godwin's Law kicked in really fast on this one...   :D



================================




How else do you love God, if not loving thy neighbor, by following His examples?

So the way you understand it, there is no difference between loving God and loving your neighbor.

Jesus Christ said:

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. (Mt. 10: 34-36)

What did Jesus mean?


« Last Edit: Aug 27, 2012 at 07:19 AM by barrister »

Offline ATJr.

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #683 on: Aug 27, 2012 at 07:23 AM »
Did i say that Jesus is my God?
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Offline Nelson de Leon

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #684 on: Aug 27, 2012 at 08:01 AM »
My GOD is the Greatest!!!

The teachings of my God is not written on some books.....it is written in the hearts and minds of those who believes and have faith in HIM...

The Law of my God to all of us that believes in him is just one.....Love your neighbors as you love ME....

My God tells me to partake of the worlds riches just enough for my needs....and i never suffered from want because of this...

Dati ganito din ako mag-isip. but when i started reading the holy bible, nag-iba ang pananaw ko.

Offline barrister

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #685 on: Aug 27, 2012 at 08:17 AM »
Did i say that Jesus is my God?

It was already clear that Jesus is not your God.  But that's OK.  We are entitled to our own beliefs.
« Last Edit: Aug 27, 2012 at 08:22 AM by barrister »

Offline devlin_waugh

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #686 on: Aug 27, 2012 at 09:11 AM »

Offline ATJr.

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #687 on: Aug 27, 2012 at 10:03 AM »
Dati ganito din ako mag-isip. but when i started reading the holy bible, nag-iba ang pananaw ko.

i also read the bible.....i believe in a Supreme Being......I thank my God each time i wake up in the morning and each time i have something to say to him.....as if he doesn't already know, i tell HIM just the same.....
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Offline docelmo

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #688 on: Aug 27, 2012 at 10:10 AM »
My GOD is the Greatest!!!

The teachings of my God is not written on some books.....it is written in the hearts and minds of those who believes and have faith in HIM...

The Law of my God to all of us that believes in him is just one.....Love your neighbors as you love ME....

My God tells me to partake of the worlds riches just enough for my needs....and i never suffered from want because of this...

This gave it away that you have a different faith, that's ok we are all entitled to our own beliefs.
I believe in the God of the Bible not only because of faith, but also because of the what He claims to be...I am the Way, The Truth, and the Life......no one goes to the Father except through Me.
I believe He exist because of the existence objective moral values and duties, good and evil, love and hate.

Without the one true GOD........Everything will be permissible!
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Offline bumblebee

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #689 on: Aug 27, 2012 at 10:25 AM »
So the way you understand it, there is no difference between loving God and loving your neighbor.

Jesus Christ said:

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. (Mt. 10: 34-36)

What did Jesus mean?




His teachings ran counter with some current beliefs/practices of that time. So I guess it's natural that there would be conflicts. Like what's happening to this thread now :) Like what's happening to the world now.