Topic: The Religion Thread

[bartender]

Hitler - estimated 12 million killed.

Mao - estimated 70 million killed.
Stalin - estimated 20 to 30 million killed.

Mao & Stalin --- atheists.


Atheism's Body Count - Ideology and Human Suffering
Atheism's Murder Rate: More than 250 Million Dead in the Past Century 

It is often argued by humanists and atheists that religion is responsible for most of the suffering caused by war in human history. It is often argued specifically that religious violence proves God does not exist.* While it is true that religious wars have been notoriously bloody, and waged so contrary to their founders' teachings, religion's followers have no exclusive corner on the market when it comes to creating suffering. Atheism it seems is at least as bad, if not worse. What follows is a brief, tongue-in-cheek, rebuttal to humanism's utopian hope for a peaceful world through the elimination of all religion.

... And while it is often said that Hitler was a Christian, the Nuremberg documents clearly reveal the heart of this ruthless man who believed in social Darwinism and had devised plans to completely eliminate Christianity after the Third Reich was firmly established.

http://scholarscorner.com/apologia/deathtoll.html

I think from a philosophical standpoint, faith or belief in a god or supreme being is an acceptance of our shortcomings as human beings:  that we cannot do or explain everything, hence, a being greater than us exists.

So once your mind believes that you are the best, the space for a god/ supreme being disappears, leading to atheism and the belief that everyone else is inferior to you.

[sharkey360]

Do you believe that anime and religion conflict with each other? I know some prayerful people who despise anime and demanded that it should be banned.

[Nelson de Leon]

1. I think this is still true.  I remember a friend of mine saying before that if you threw a baby at Hitler, his first instinct will be to catch it, then maybe drop it later.

2. People do good because it's inherent to everyone, regardless of religion or faith.  Associating good with religion or faith is completely unfair to people who live unexposed to the concept of modern religion.

1. I think even if you threw a beer bottle, it's inherent for people to catch it. the maybe drink it or drop it later. 

2. I think there's a misinterpretation here. I think it's differentiating doing good by christians vs doing good by non-christians. And, both christians and non christians are capable of doing good in a human level. Iba naman yun doing good in a christian sense under God's eyes.

FYI, gumawa na ako ng seperate thread:

http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php/topic,170692.0.html

[barrister]

Since you mentioned "Protestants", why not use the verse that they use for Sola Fide? Reconcile James with Ephesians 2:8-10.

That's an easy one.  Easier than Romans 4:5.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Eph. 2:8-10)

It says "through faith."  Does it say "faith alone"?  No.  Does it say "good works alone"? No.

So what does Eph. 2:8-10 mean?  It says salvation cannot be attained by good works alone, "so that no one can boast."  Why?

If salvation can be attained by good works alone, then a man who does good works alone can boast that he was saved by his own power alone, without any help from God.  But the truth is that no matter what he does, man cannot attain salvation by his own power alone. 

Faith and good works must go together.  Do good works and that still would not be enough to give you salvation unless those good works are coupled with God's gift of salvation.

So good works alone are insufficient.  What if you have only faith alone, would that be sufficient?  Of course not.  Does Eph. 2:8-10 say "faith alone"?  No.  That is why James 2:14-17 completes the picture by saying:

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

I don't see how it can be clearer.

Therefore, the sola fide doctrine is definitely unbiblical.

[sharkey360]

Can you believe this?

Probation in son’s death
The parents relied on prayer instead of a doctor to heal their child, who died after his appendix ruptured

Nine months after their teenage son died of an infection from a burst appendix, a Creswell couple who chose prayer over medical care for the boy admitted criminal responsibility for his death.

Russel and Brandi Bellew each pleaded guilty on Tuesday in Lane County Circuit Court to charges of criminally negligent homicide, as part of an agreement with prosecutors.

The Bellews — who are members of a church that generally believes in using prayer instead of modern medicine to treat illnesses — avoided jail in the plea deal, but will spend the next five years on probation. During that time, they will be required to contact a doctor whenever any of their six surviving children suffer from an ailment that causes them to miss school for more than one day.

The Bellews were arrested in February after an autopsy revealed that 16-year-old Austin Sprout had died two months earlier from an infection that resulted from a ruptured appendix. The teen was Brandi Bellew’s biological child and Russel Bellew’s stepson.

The exact cause of Sprout’s death had not been publicly disclosed before Lane County prosecutor Erik Hasselman detailed the case in court on Tuesday.

Sprout, who was a junior at Creswell High School, had been sick with a variety of cold- and flu-like symptoms for about 1½ weeks before he died, Hasselman said.

“The family, through their reliance on faith, ended up praying for his recovery,” Hasselman said.

He added that the Bellews and their surviving children — who attend the General Assembly and the Church of the First Born in Pleasant Hill — told investigators that Sprout did not want a doctor to diagnose his illness.

“It appeared that (Sprout) wanted to respect his faith and the manner in which he was brought up,” Hasselman said.

But under Oregon law, a person must be 18 or older to make decisions regarding his or her own medical care.

After Sprout died at home last Dec. 20, family members phoned a local mortuary in an attempt to make funeral arrangements, Hasselman said. Someone at the mortuary then called the Lane County Medical Examiner’s Office, which prompted Lane County sheriff’s officials to launch a death investigation.

A grand jury subsequently indicted the Bellews on charges of second-degree manslaughter, which is defined in part as causing a dependent person’s death by neglect or maltreatment.

Had the couple been convicted of manslaughter, they each would have faced a mandatory minimum prison sentence of six years and three months. They were instead placed on probation after being allowed to plead guilty to the less-serious felony charge of criminally negligent homicide.

The Bellews declined to offer any statement regarding Sprout’s death when given the opportunity in court.

About 40 of their supporters attended the hearing. When it ended, the couple — who had been barred by court officials from contacting each other during the past seven months — locked in a long embrace. By that time, many onlookers had tears in their eyes.

Brandi Bellew, 36, and her 40-year-old husband each spent four days in jail following their arrests. Family members bailed them out, but a jail release agreement ordered them to live apart and not speak to each other until the criminal matter played out in court.

The Bellews have been allowed in recent months to take turns caring for their surviving children, under a court-approved arrangement that required them to closely monitor the youngsters’ health needs while being supervised by a state-appointed “safety service provider.”

The children — the youngest of whom is a toddler, the oldest 17 — became wards of the state in April, although they have been living in their home with their mother. A judge will decide whether the Bellews may regain full custody of the children.

The Bellews have “cooperated completely” with child welfare workers from the state Department of Human Services, who felt it would have been “detrimental to the children’s welfare” if the couple had been sentenced to jail in connection with Sprout’s death, Hasselman said.

Brandi Bellew’s attorney, Bob Schrank of Eugene, said in court that a number of community members — including many Creswell residents who are not members of the Bellews’ church — expressed support for the couple as their criminal case unfolded.

“The parenting abilities here are just great,” Schrank said of the Bellews.

Eugene attorney Hugh Duvall, who represented Russel Bellew in court, said his client is “fully committed” to seeking medical care for his children when they become ill.

Hasselman and fellow Assistant District Attorney Erin Zemper, meanwhile, have met with church officials to make it clear that medical neglect of a child won’t be tolerated by Lane County authorities. A two-page letter authored by Hasselman was distributed in August to the church’s membership. The letter explains relevant state laws and urges parents to call a doctor whenever there is a health-related concern regarding a child.

Hasselman said in court that church members have been receptive to the outreach.

“This is not a denomination that feels that its faith is at odds with the laws of the community,” he said. About 60 families attend the church in Pleasant Hill.

Previous cases

Elsewhere, the General Assembly and the Church of the First Born has been linked to a number of deaths related to its spiritual healing practices.

In the mid-1990s, a Brownsville couple who attended the Church of the First Born became the first people in Oregon to be prosecuted for following their religious beliefs rather than taking their ill child to a doctor.

Loyd and Christina Hays initially faced charges of manslaughter and criminally negligent homicide in the death of their 7-year-old son, who had a treatable form of leukemia.

A Linn County jury in 1996 convicted Loyd Hays of criminally negligent homicide, but acquitted his wife of all charges. A judge sentenced Loyd Hays to probation in the case.

In 1999, a new state law eliminated spiritual healing defenses against charges of second-degree manslaughter, first- and second-degree criminal mistreatment and nonpayment of child support.

Last year, Gov. John Kitzhaber signed a bill into law that removed the defense for all homicide charges. The new law came on the heels of several high-profile faith healing cases involving members of the Followers of Christ church in Oregon City.

In one case, a judge handed down a 75-month sentence to the parents of a premature baby who died without medical intervention just hours after being born.

Another case involved a 16-year-old boy who died from complications related to a urinary tract obstruction. His parents — Jeff and Marci Beagley — were each sentenced in 2010 to 16 months in prison after being convicted by a jury of criminally negligent homicide.

Clackamas County District Attorney John Foote sent a letter in April 2010 to families who belong to the Followers of Christ church that was similar in content to the one that Hasselman addressed to the membership of the Bellews’ church.

Clackamas County prosecutor Greg Horner, who handled the Beagley case, said on Tuesday that Foote’s letter to the Followers of Christ church “was met with silence.” The Beagley case went to trial, Horner added, after the couple indicated they were not interested in plea negotiations.

Horner said he understands the public’s interest in criminal cases involving families who seek to heal their children through prayer.

“It captures people’s attention because it can be perceived as a clash of values” between religious freedom and child protection issues, Horner said.

While parents are legally responsible for providing their children with appropriate medical care, adults are not required to visit a doctor if they do not wish to do so.

The Bellews married after both were widowed. Hasselman said their previous spouses both died from infections that would have been “highly treatable” had they sought medical attention.

Brandi Bellew is the biological mother of three of her surviving children. Russel Bellew fathered two of the youngsters with his previous wife. The sixth child was born to the couple in 2010.

http://www.registerguard.com/web/news/28770072-57/bellews-church-death-hasselman-sprout.html.csp

[rexFi]

That's easier than Romans 4:5.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Eph. 2:8-10)

It says "through faith."  Does it say "faith alone"?  No.  Does it say "good works alone"? No.

Grammar please, it says it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and NOT of works... Don't change the sentence.

Your question to drive your point is putting IN something into the verse or Eisegesis and not drawing the teaching out of it or exegesis.

So what does Eph. 2:8-10 mean?  It says salvation cannot be attained by good works alone, "so that no one can boast."  Why?

If salvation can be attained by good works alone, then a man who does good works alone can boast that he was saved by his own power alone, without any help from God.  But the truth is that no matter what he does, man cannot attain salvation by his own power alone. 

Faith and good works must go together.  Do good works and that still will not give you salvation unless those good works are coupled with God's gift of salvation.

So good works alone are insufficient.  What if you have only faith alone, would that be sufficient?  Of course not.  Does Eph. 2:8-10 say "faith alone"?  No.

These are all moot because you have already put something INTO the verse. To make it more clear, how about Read the whole chapter?

That is why James 2:14-17 completes the picture by saying:

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

I don't see how it can be clearer.

Therefore, the sola fide doctrine is definitely unbiblical.

So by not "modifying" the Ephesians verse, again,

it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and NOT of works

Does this mean James is not  agreeing with Paul? <-- now this is a valid question not like yours since it is established that... again:

it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and NOT of works

Wag natin dagdagan yung sentence para maiba yung tinuturo ng chapter, stick sa grammar, sa pagkakagawa ng sentence.

Now ok, established? Paul taught that that a man is justified by faith without the works of the law.

So what does James Chapter 2 mean? It means Saving Faith is always accompanied by good Works or has fruit.

Now understand Ephesians 2:10 in relation to being saved by grace through faith:

10  For we are His workmanship,created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

The verse tells us we are created in christ FOR good works, not do GOOD works to be created IN Christ because in order to be IN Christ is through faith and NOT of works.
Perfect correlation with what James what saying without modifying anything.

If we say works saves then we are doing good works to be created in Christ Jesus. This is the very opposite of what the text states.

We are saved by faith alone but it is not alone - it is accompanied by works.

By not modifying anything, Sola Fide is drawn out from inside the Bible without any conflict.

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name" John 1:12

"But these things are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God and that believing you may have life in his name." John 20:31

"We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him." 1 John 5:18 (like what James was saying in 2, they were sinning by having favoritism towards the rich etc)

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10

[barrister]

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Eph. 2:8-10)

Grammar please, it says it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and NOT of works... Don't change the sentence.

... you have already put something INTO the verse.

So by not "modifying" the Ephesians verse, again,

it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and NOT of works

... since it is established that... again:

it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and NOT of works

Wag natin dagdagan yung sentence para maiba yung tinuturo ng chapter, stick sa grammar, sa pagkakagawa ng sentence.

...By not modifying anything, Sola Fide is drawn out from inside the Bible without any conflict.

So you are accusing me of dishonestly changing the verse to suit my purposes?

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a challenger. 



==========================================



My quotation came from the New International Version (NIV):

Ephesians 2:8-10
New International Version (NIV)

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+2%3A8-10&version=NIV

In my NIV quote, "through faith" is followed by "—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—."

But you are insisting that "through faith" should be immediately followed by "and not of works."

Grammar please, it says it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and NOT of works... Don't change the sentence.

... So by not "modifying" the Ephesians verse, again,

it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and NOT of works

... since it is established that... again:

it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and NOT of works

Wag natin dagdagan yung sentence para maiba yung tinuturo ng chapter, stick sa grammar, sa pagkakagawa ng sentence. ...

In the original Greek, "through faith" [διὰ πίστεως] is followed by "and this not of yourselves (it is) - God's gift" (καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον).  Therefore, the NIV translation of the verse is accurate.

Greek Interlinear:

http://interlinearbible.org/ephesians/2-8.htm

Text analysis with Strong's Numbers, Transliteration and original Greek:

http://biblos.com/ephesians/2-8.htm

Here are other translations:

New Living Translation (©2007)
God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God.

English Standard Version (©2001)
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

International Standard Version (©2008)
For by such grace you have been saved through faith. This does not come from you; it is the gift of God

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
For it is by his grace that we have been saved through faith, and this faith was not from you, but it is the gift of God,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
God saved you through faith as an act of kindness. You had nothing to do with it. Being saved is a gift from God.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

American King James Version
For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

American Standard Version
for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Douay-Rheims Bible
For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God;

Darby Bible Translation
For ye are saved by grace, through faith; and this not of yourselves; it is God's gift:

English Revised Version
for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Webster's Bible Translation
For by grace are ye saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Weymouth New Testament
For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. It is God's gift, and is not on the ground of merit--

World English Bible
for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Young's Literal Translation
for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,

http://bible.cc/ephesians/2-8.htm


None of them have "and not of works" immediately following "through faith."


Ironically, your own full quotation of Eph. 2:8-10 also does not have "and not of works" immediately following "through faith."

..."For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10

You quoted the King James Version (KJV):

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%202:8-10&version=KJV



=========================================



So before you accuse me of dishonesty, please be sure that you know what you are talking about.

One last thing.  You said, "Grammar please"?  You're a funny guy, Bubba ... 

[Nelson de Leon]

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Eph. 2:8-10)

Kaya ko ito favorite. 

It simply means that salvation comes through faith. And since faith is a grace, faith is a gift from God. So we did not choose to be saved. Instead, it is our all powerful God, who is the source of our grace, who chooses the people to be saved.

Good works automatically follow to those who have faith. Kung baga, if you have faith in God, pero walang good works, for me, questionable yun dba?

Pero yun kasama ni Jesus Christ na napako sa cross, di ba walang good works na nagawa pero he was saved. It think because namatay na siya kaya hindi na nasundan ng good works. 

[rexFi]

Kaya ko ito favorite. 

It simply means that salvation comes through faith. And since faith is a grace, faith is a gift from God. So we did not choose to be saved. Instead, it is our all powerful God, who is the source of our grace, who chooses the people to be saved.

Uhm? hmm.. Salvation is the Gift from God, that can be received through Faith and NOT works.
People do not simply... work for a Gift.

...but I get what you mean, since faith is a gift too.

Good works automatically follow to those who have faith. Kung baga, if you have faith in God, pero walang good works, for me, questionable yun dba?

Pero yun kasama ni Jesus Christ na napako sa cross, di ba walang good works na nagawa pero he was saved. It think because namatay na siya kaya hindi na nasundan ng good works. 

Actually, he did show "fruit" vs. the other guy which he rebuked. He also "repented" and asked Jesus to be remembered by Him in paradise.

They are fruits of his faith and is considered an Action/Work.

*edit to add some periods, commas etc.
*grammar siyempre.

[rexFi]

So you are accusing me of dishonestly changing the verse to suit my purposes?

You're changing it by asking an invalid question:

"Does it say faith alone? work alone"?

When the verse can stand on its own and is saying a direct thing.

My quotation came from the New International Version (NIV):

Ephesians 2:8-10
New International Version (NIV)

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+2%3A8-10&version=NIV

In my NIV quote, "through faith" is followed by "—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—."

But you are insisting that "through faith" should be immediately followed by "and not of works."

In the original Greek, "through faith" [διὰ πίστεως] is followed by "and this not of yourselves (it is) - God's gift" (καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον).  Therefore, the NIV translation of the verse is accurate.

Greek Interlinear:

http://interlinearbible.org/ephesians/2-8.htm

Text analysis with Strong's Numbers, Transliteration and original Greek:

http://biblos.com/ephesians/2-8.htm

Here are other translations:

New Living Translation (©2007)
God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God.

English Standard Version (©2001)
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

International Standard Version (©2008)
For by such grace you have been saved through faith. This does not come from you; it is the gift of God

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
For it is by his grace that we have been saved through faith, and this faith was not from you, but it is the gift of God,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
God saved you through faith as an act of kindness. You had nothing to do with it. Being saved is a gift from God.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

American King James Version
For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

American Standard Version
for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Douay-Rheims Bible
For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God;

Darby Bible Translation
For ye are saved by grace, through faith; and this not of yourselves; it is God's gift:

English Revised Version
for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Webster's Bible Translation
For by grace are ye saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Weymouth New Testament
For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. It is God's gift, and is not on the ground of merit--

World English Bible
for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Young's Literal Translation
for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,

http://bible.cc/ephesians/2-8.htm


None of them have "and not of works" immediately following "through faith."


Ironically, your own full quotation of Eph. 2:8-10 also does not have "and not of works" immediately following "through faith."

You quoted the King James Version (KJV):

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%202:8-10&version=KJV



=========================================



So before you accuse me of dishonesty, please be sure that you know what you are talking about.

One last thing.  You said, "Grammar please"?  You're a funny guy, Bubba ... 

Yep grammar please, you and I "completing" the verse putting in "not of yourselves" (<-- which pertains to the GIFT mind you) and then NOT of works(verse 9) did not change my argument from my last post and is still the correct interpretation than you asking an invalid question.

So sure from your own link:

http://biblos.com/ephesians/2-8.htm
http://biblos.com/ephesians/2-9.htm
http://biblos.com/ephesians/2-10.htm

It still stand that, by Grace Alone, by faith alone (not of ourselves) and NOT of works so no one can boast WE are saved <<-- and that Faith is not a dead faith because it produces good works as explained from verse 10.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a challenger. 

I don't now about that, we are just discussing an important doctrine of us Evangelicals/Protestant/Reformed.

[dpogs]

ang aso kaya kumakahol kasi aso siya... hindi kumakahol ang aso para maging aso.

ang anak ng Diyos (Christian) kaya gumagawa ng mabuti kasi anak siya ng Diyos.... hindi siya gumagawa ng mabuti para maging anak ng Diyos.

paano ba maging aso? ang isilang ng isang babaeng aso o ang kumahol ng kumahol?
paano ba maging anak ng Diyos? to be born again (spirit) or gumawa ng maraming kabutihan?

salvation is complete when Christ gave His life, died, buried and resurrected. it is a gift. a gift is free. no need to work for it if it is free. we just need to received it by faith. i believe that, by saying that we need to work for our salvation is an insult to what Christ did for us.

[rexFi]

...

ang anak ng Diyos (Christian) kaya gumagawa ng mabuti kasi anak siya ng Diyos.... hindi siya gumagawa ng mabuti para maging anak ng Diyos.
...

Yup. That is basically Ephesians 2:10.

[dpogs]

if works is essential for salvation, then do we need to keep doing good to stay as Son of God?

basically the same saying na 'ang aso para manatiling aso ay kailangan niyang kumahol ng kumahol'?


Paul speaks on how a sinner become son of God.
James speaks on how a son of God walks as a son of God. James never said that faith+work is equal to salvation. James said that "faith that saves is not alone".

there is a big difference between faith alone and faith+works as a means of salvation.

[barrister]

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Eph. 2:8-10)

Grammar please, it says it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and NOT of works... Don't change the sentence.

...So by not "modifying" the Ephesians verse, again,

it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and NOT of works

... again:

it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and NOT of works

Wag natin dagdagan yung sentence para maiba yung tinuturo ng chapter, stick sa grammar, sa pagkakagawa ng sentence.

The verse merely says, "faith" without "alone," yet it is your denomination that insists on saying "faith alone."

That is why I asked rhetorically, "Does it say, 'faith alone'?" --- to emphasize what the verse does not say.  My question does not add anything to the verse.  In fact, it does the exact opposite, because it preserves what is written, by preventing the addition of any other word.

You, on the other hand, repeatedly insisted that the verse said "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and NOT of works," when it clearly does not.

Your motivation is to prove that your "sola fide" (faith alone) doctrine is correct, even if there is no verse in the bible that says, "faith alone."

Therefore, it is clear that it was you who changed the verse, not me.



=========================================


No matter how clearly I explain it, you will never agree.  Because agreeing will mean that your doctrine falls apart.

Like I said:

Justification by faith alone (sola fide) is so central to many Protestant denominations that nothing you say will make them admit they are wrong.

Kaya sayang lang oras mo sir.  Kahit pitpitin mo itlog niyan, hindi pa rin aamin yan na mali siya... 

Me, I do not belong to any formal denomination.  I just read the bible, without having to worry about protecting any denomination's vested interests.

[rexFi]

The verse merely says, "faith" without "alone," yet it is your denomination that insists on saying "faith alone."

Your motivation is to prove that your "sola fide" (faith alone) doctrine is correct, even if there is no verse in the bible that says "faith alone."

That is why I asked rhetorically, "Does it say, 'faith alone'?" --- to emphasize what the verse does not say.  My question does not add anything to the verse.  In fact, it does the exact opposite, because it preserves what is written by preventing the addition of any other word.

The verse doesn't have to include the word alone for reading the "whole" verse, it is already saying that Salvation is a Gift, received through Faith (and this not of yourselves, yes talking about the Gift) and NOT of works then continuing on with verse 10 <-- which you haven't tackled by the way.

Tagalog: Faith daw makukuha and Salvation(not of ourselves) hindi Works. Bakit pinipilit na may kasamang work and hindi "alone" yung faith since di nga daw work?

Your question is invalid(IOW Fallacy)

Thus in historical analysis with an argument from silence, the absence of a reference to an event or a document is used to cast doubt on the event not mentioned. While most historical approaches rely on what an author's works contain, an argument from silence relies on what the book or document does not contain.

This approach thus uses what an author "should have said" rather what is available in the author's extant writings.

Emphasis mine. LINK
The underlined is what you are doing sir.

You, on the other hand, repeatedly insisted that the verse said "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and NOT of works," when it does not.

Therefore, it is clear that it was you who changed the verse, not me.

It is ok since the main thought is preserved even with the Greek.

AND I don't know what the fuss is about, since, without modifying my post in question(which you said Ironically), I did quote the "other" version on the very last set of bible verses I posted. Check it.

...
By not modifying anything, Sola Fide is drawn out from inside the Bible without any conflict.

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name" John 1:12

"But these things are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God and that believing you may have life in his name." John 20:31

"We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him." 1 John 5:18 (like what James was saying in 2, they were sinning by having favoritism towards the rich etc)

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10

^^ See?

=========================================


No matter how clearly I explain it, you will never agree.  Because agreeing will mean that your doctrine falls apart.

Like I said:
 

Me, I do not belong to any formal denomination.  I just read the bible, without having to worry about protecting any denomination's vested interests.

I would like to request to kindly stop putting Malice in our discussion and just stay on topic.

And I am disagreeing with you because I'm siding to what I know is right.
Exegesis vs. Eisegesis <-- this is non-denominational and a universal thing.

Besides you're kinda accusing me of being "close-minded" when in fact I think my decision to believe what I believe is informed.

I vote to stop "talking about ourselves" and just discuss the Scripture in question if you want to continue. If it again goes to talking about denominations, then I have no more business discussing on this thread.

*edits: corrected the fallacy link, tackled the NOT works immediately verse, the quotes above the "^^See?" 

[dpogs]

based on how you read the Bible sir barrister, does it mean that every Christian must continually do good works to maintain his/her status as a son of God?

also, when is the part that a man become a son of God (Christian)? before faith, after repentance or its a process as he/she walks or it depends if he stop doing good works?

[barrister]

It is ok since the main thought is preserved even with the Greek.

So you admit that you dishonestly changed the verse to suit your purposes? 

based on how you read the Bible sir barrister, does it mean that every Christian must continually do good works to maintain his/her status as a son of God?

also, when is the part that a man become a son of God (Christian)? before faith, after repentance or its a process as he/she walks or it depends if he stop doing good works?

Si sir dpogs, kahit kaliwa't kanan ang tinatanggap na insulto sa religion thread, maginoo pa rin.  I admire your cool temperament.     

First of all, help me understand your point by answering this:

Do you believe in the doctrine, "Once Saved, Always Saved"?

[rexFi]

So you admit that you dishionestly changed the verse to suit your purposes? 

No, I did not change the "thought" of the verse. I think you just misunderstood.

Based on me quoting the KJV verse in the end, it is pretty clear that I am aware that there is "and this not of yourselves" since that is not the point of our discussion until later.

And now I know what the problem is, look at our discussion so far.

1. First, I said you were adding something to the verse, by asking an invalid question.

- then I merely used the thought of the verse that is in question. Adding the phrase "and this not of yourselves" does not change the thought of the posts that I have been putting out.

2. You are focusing on the the phrase "and this not of yourselves" because you thought I am accusing you of literally changing/modifying the verse, when what I am saying is that:

By asking an invalid question you are changing the thought of the verse.

-- Which I explained why already. This is what I am saying "honestly" and I hope its understood and is clear.

Si sir dpogs, kahit kaliwa't kanan ang tinatanggap na insulto sa religion thread, maginoo pa rin.  I admire your cool temperament.     

Boo! ako rin naman ah? hehe *oops stop talking about ourselves nga pala

...

...

*edit: AND by the way, you sir changed the thought of my post again by not including the..

AND I don't know what the fuss is about, since, without modifying my post in question(which you said Ironically), I did quote the "other" version on the very last set of bible verses I posted. Check it.

You focused only on the above sentence, I believe that is another fallacy.

[barrister]

No, I did not change the "thought" of the verse. I think you just misunderstood.

I'm not asking about the "thought," because the "thought" is a matter of interpretation.  And we have different interpretations.

I'm asking you about the verse itself.

Mahilig ka pala sir magpalit-palit ng statement pag naiipit, ano? 

[dpogs]

Si sir dpogs, kahit kaliwa't kanan ang tinatanggap na insulto sa religion thread, maginoo pa rin.  I admire your cool temperament.     

First of all, help me understand your point by answering this:

Do you believe in the doctrine, "Once Saved, Always Saved"?

that is one of the Baptist's doctrine... well....

in terms of what is needed to be son of God i believe sa motto na "Once Saved, Always Saved".
in terms of how we live as a Chrisitan or as a son of God, that is not applicable, we need to workout our salvation for them (unbeliever) to determine if we are indeed a son of God. Unbeliever needs evidence and we show it by our works. and if we are saying that we are son of God, but no manifestation of faith, isa lang ibig sabihin noon, our faith is not genuine.

[rexFi]

I'm not asking about the "thought," because the "thought" is a matter of interpretation.  And we have different interpretations.

I'm asking you about the verse itself.

Mahilig ka pala sir magpalit-palit ng statement pag naiipit, ano? 

Nope nalito ka lang, na ngayon ko lang narealize.
Your asking me about the verse itself? Yan nga yung number 2 ng flow ng discussion natin na pinoint out ko.

2. You are focusing on the the phrase "and this not of yourselves" because you thought I am accusing you of literally changing/modifying the verse, when what I am saying is that:

By asking an invalid question you are changing the thought of the verse.

-- Which I explained why already. This is what I am saying "honestly" and I hope its understood and is clear.

You thought I said literal mo chinechange yung verse when I am simply pointing out the Fallacy of your question. E.g. paulit ulit yung word ko na not valid etc.

Clearly naman na sinasabi kong modification by adding in the alone, magiiba yung sinasabi ng verse, not like pag di nasama yung "and this not of yourselves" then NOT of works ganon parin ang interpretation ng verse na mangyayari for short:

By Grace, Through Faith NOT Works <--

While your proposed interpretation is by asking an if/else question that has nothing to do with the verse already.

EDIT: If you are not satisfied, here's evidence of the whole thing I am saying:

it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and NOT of works

Wag natin dagdagan yung sentence para maiba yung tinuturo ng chapter, stick sa grammar, sa pagkakagawa ng sentence.

Emphasis mine.

By asking the question why is the word "alone" not included "you do add something in it", hence the fallacy.

Me by not including "and this not of yourselves" does not change the correct teaching of the chapter.

Besides, nagStart nga ako sa "it is by grace" hindi "FOR (it) is by grace" <--  na literal sa bible, naiba ko rin yon. Check the many verses you posted. None of them too starts with "it is by grace".

You are focusing on the phrase I did not include then accuse me of being dishonest. Since start I am only using the thought of the verse.

[Nelson de Leon]

based on how you read the Bible sir barrister,

1. does it mean that every Christian must continually do good works to maintain his/her status as a son of God?

2. also, when is the part that a man become a son of God (Christian)? before faith, after repentance or its a process as he/she walks or it depends if he stop doing good works?

1. For me, when we say must continually do good works to maintain status, parang there's something wrong. I mean, when we say must, parang we are obligating ourselves. IMHO, doing good works must come naturally. If in the back of our mind, we do good works to maintain status, parang mali pa din. Correct me kung mali ang pagkaka-intindi ko. A good example for me is, the normal relationship between parents and kid/s. Kapag nadapa, automatic tutulungan natin tumayo, with nothing in return.

2. We automatically become children of God if we accept Jesus as our ONLY savior and surrender everything (our problems, sins etc) to Him. If we are true to this, repentance for our sins come before accepting Jesus.

[barrister]

that is one of the Baptist's doctrine... well....

in terms of what is needed to be son of God i believe sa motto na "Once Saved, Always Saved".
in terms of how we live as a Chrisitan or as a son of God, that is not applicable, we need to workout our salvation for them (unbeliever) to determine if we are indeed a son of God. Unbeliever needs evidence and we show it by our works. and if we are saying that we are son of God, but no manifestation of faith, isa lang ibig sabihin noon, our faith is not genuine.

You've never stated which denomination you belong to, so thanks for clarifying.  At least I now know where you're coming from.

I do not believe in the doctrine, "OSAS" (once saved always saved).  But if that's what you believe in, e di OK lang.  Kanya-kanyang interpretation yan e.

"Perseverance of the Saints" is Calvinist doctrine interpreting Romans 8:39 to mean that once a person is saved, he will always remian in the state of being saved:

38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom. 8:39)

OSAS is a more modern slogan, but it's just a restatement of the Perseverance of the Saints doctine, which means those who are saved can never lose their salvation.

However, I do not believe in OSAS because it is not biblical. 

[rexFi]

1. For me, when we say must continually do good works to maintain status, parang there's something wrong. I mean, when we say must, parang we are obligating ourselves. IMHO, doing good works must come naturally. If in the back of our mind, we do good works to maintain status, parang mali pa din. Correct me kung mali ang pagkaka-intindi ko. A good example for me is, the normal relationship between parents and kid/s. Kapag nadapa, automatic tutulungan natin tumayo, with nothing in return.

Hi sir, yes. Ang "maintenance" for salvation is God's Grace Alone and the Faith Alone Response of the individual. We cannot respond if God does not give us Grace first, cannot do good works without Faith first.

2. We automatically become children of God if we accept Jesus as our ONLY savior and surrender everything (our problems, sins etc) to Him. If we are true to this, repentance for our sins come before accepting Jesus.

We can only accept Jesus IF God grants us the grace to do so, He seems to do it since John 3:16 says so etc.

Bible doctrine wise, my position is against OSAS but it doesn't matter.
Both believes that only God knows who are truly His anyway.

The debate usually with "them" is with the countless warnings against falling out found in scriptures and the "not saved in the first place" argument. <<-- AS I have mentioned I think in the LGBT Issues thread, I am retired in Polemics.

Nadraw lang naman ako dito dahil sa Sola Fide.

I think its time to say goodbye.

For those interested in my Theological Background go to these sites:

http://www.fwponline.cc/ <- Fundamental Wesleyan, be sure to checkout the Arminian Magazine.
http://arminianperspectives.wordpress.com - great resource vs. Calvinists. The comment sections every article is great.
http://arminian.com/fundamental-wesleyan-society-bookstore.html - Wesleyan Basics
www.eternalsecurity.us/ <-- A Wesleyan-Arminian website, Good resource for Anti-OSAS.
http://www.eternalsecurity.us/biblical_theology.htm <-- the main site.
http://prewrathrapture.com <-- ehh, not dogmatic about this, but this was my last Eschatological position.

But I belong to this non-denominational denomination

http://www.cogic.org/ - YUP am Trinitarian Pentecostal I am the Drummer for our Worship Team, I can sing some too *ehem*

and this is where I "was" active in Polemics:

thebereans.net <-- just go to the forums. I was joe_higashi there.

God Speed to everyone.

[dpogs]

You've never stated which denomination you belong to, so thanks for clarifying.  At least I now know where you're coming from.

I do not believe in the doctrine, "OSAS" (once saved always saved).  But if that's what you believe in, e di OK lang.  Kanya-kanyang interpretation yan e.

"Perseverance of the Saints" is Calvinist doctrine interpreting Romans 8:39 to mean that once a person is saved, he will always remian in the state of being saved:

38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom. 8:39)

OSAS is a more modern slogan, but it's just a restatement of the Perseverance of the Saints doctine, which means those who are saved can never lose their salvation.

However, I do not believe in OSAS becase it is not biblical.

hmmm... it simply shows that you believe in an idea "in order to keep salvation (status of being a son of God) we still need to do good works"


i believe that once i became a son of God (that is by true faith), then i will be forever son of God whatever happens (given that i have a genuine faith). That is how I see the promise of God according to the Bible. BUT (there is a BIG BUT here), that is not a license for me kaya ko nang gawin ang gusto kong gawin - including evil things.

i am a son of my father with surname "Santos", anuman gawin ko hindi maikakaila ng aking ama na ako ay kanyang anak, magbago man ako ng apelyido hindi mawawala ang katotohanang anak pa rin niya ako, we are connected by blood. same with my relationship to God, whatever i do, i am still a son of God, if i do mischief, God the Father have all the rights to justice/scold me (even physical death), but never an spiritual death.

Me and my God the Father been connected by the blood of Jesus Christ. who can disconnect that connection from God the Father?

- my sins : this been settled already. Jesus paid for my sins. (this is not a license to do evil things)
- devils : they can hurt me physically but they can never separate me from the love of God
- God the Father : Jesus is my mediator

hindi ko magagawang tumbasan sa pamamagitan ng 'good works' ang ginawa ng Panginoong Hesus. ang 'salvation' been complete when He died, buried and rise from the grave. for me, to do good works just to maintain my salvation is basically the same thing as saying na "Jesus, what you did is not enough, i still need to do good works, to maintain my salvation".

[rexFi]

By the way pala, di ba gagawa ng Christian Lifestyle and the Bible na thread?

[Nelson de Leon]

By the way pala, di ba gagawa ng Christian Lifestyle and the Bible na thread?

Meron na. Dito rin sa big talk. the walk naman yun. 

[rexFi]

Meron na. Dito rin sa big talk. the walk naman yun. 

Cool! I bid farewell to this thread. ^_^

...

 

[barrister]

No, I did not change the "thought" of the verse. I think you just misunderstood.

Nope nalito ka lang, na ngayon ko lang narealize.

No, hindi ako nalito, sir.

Grammar please, it says it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and NOT of works... Don't change the sentence.

...So by not "modifying" the Ephesians verse, again,

it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and NOT of works

... again:

it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and NOT of works

Wag natin dagdagan yung sentence para maiba yung tinuturo ng chapter, stick sa grammar, sa pagkakagawa ng sentence.

Ang sabi mo: "IT SAYS" --- "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and NOT of works."

Hindi mo sinabing "it means;" hindi mo rin sinabing "my interpretation is;" hindi mo rin sinabing "the thought of the verse is."  Ang sabi mo, "IT SAYS." 

Then you said, "by not 'modifying' the Ephesians verse... it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and NOT of works."

Ako ang nalito, o ikaw ang nagpapalusot pagkatapos maipit? 

[barrister]

hmmm... it simply shows that you believe in an idea "in order to keep salvation (status of being a son of God) we still need to do good works"

It is not my own idea.  It's what the bible teaches.



===========================================



5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test? (2 Cor. 13:5)

If you are "in the faith" and "Christ Jesus is in you," then you are saved.  Unless you fail the test.  In the faith ka na, Christ Jesus is in you pa, pero kulang pa rin ---- if you fail the test, laglag ka pa rin.

Akala ko ba hindi na mawawala?  E bakit puwede pa ring mawala ang kaligtasan sa sitas na ito?  Kasi may kundisyon.  Kung hindi ka tutupad sa kundisyon, mawawala pa rin sa iyo ang kaligtasan. 

2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. (1 Cor. 15:2)

By this gospel you are saved, ang sabi.  E di may faith ka na.  Pero kulang pa rin, kasi may condition ---- if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. 

E di puwede pa ring mawala.  Ligtas ka na raw, pero kailangang matiyaga mong iingatan ang salitang ipinangaral.  Pag hindi mo matiyagang iingatan, mawawala ang kaligtasan sa iyo.  Kaya nga ang sabi, "Otherwise, you have believed in vain."  Sayang lang ang faith mo, kasi hindi puwedeng faith lang ay tapos na ang lahat.  Kung faith lang ang kailangan, ano pala ang masasayang?  Di ba ang paniniwala ninyo, "faith alone" lang ang kailangan at tapos na?

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. ...  (Heb. 6:4-6)

1. ... who have once been enlightened,
2. who have tasted the heavenly gift,
3. who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
4. who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age.

Kung nasa kanya nang lahat iyan, siyempre naman ligtas na ang taong yon.  Pagkatapos na makuha niya ang kaligtasan, puwede pa bang mawala?  Siyempre naman.

Ang sabi sa sitas: "and who have fallen away."  E di puwede nga. 

Puwede pa bang bumalik ang kaligtasan kung makuha mo at pagkatapos ay mawala?  Ang liwanag ng sagot: "It is impossible ... to be brought back to repentance."

for me, to do good works just to maintain my salvation is basically the same thing as saying na "Jesus, what you did is not enough, i still need to do good works, to maintain my salvation".

No, baliktad ang intindi mo sir. For you, doing good works insults the sacrifice of Jesus.  Hindi ganon sa bible. 

Sa bible, if you were once saved, you should continue your good works to honor Christ's sacrifice.  Because if you subsequently lose your salvation, you crucify and humiliate Christ all over again:

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. (Heb. 6:4-6)

That is why after you receive the gift of salvation, you must continuously work to keep it.  Otherwise, salvation will be taken away from you, and no amount of repentance will bring back the salvation you lost:

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. (Heb. 10:26-27)