Topic: The Religion Thread

[rexFi]

No, hindi ako nalito, sir.

Ang sabi mo: "IT SAYS" --- "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and NOT of works."

Hindi mo sinabing "it means;" hindi mo rin sinabing "my interpretation is;" hindi mo rin sinabing "the thought of the verse is."  Ang sabi mo, "IT SAYS."  Then you said, "by not 'modifying' the Ephesians verse."

Ako ang nalito, o ikaw ang nagpapalusot pagkatapos maipit? 

Hindi ko sinabi but that's what I meant and still I interpreted this verse:

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Eph. 2:8-10)

The same way with or without the missing words (FOR, "and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—")

Sa wala palang yung "FOR" you should have already seen what I'm doing which is saying the meaning. "IT SAYS" talagang it says that while you on the other hand is asking an invalid question.

Saka ambabaw naman see ako nga nagbring up ng Eph 2:8-10 di ba? Quoting the whole verse the first time?

then you asked and tried to add the word "alone" when the verse is stand alone already and IT SAYS withouth adding anything, in this case you adding the word alone:

it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and NOT of works.

Now The Meaning as I say it says still stands as the correct one and yours is Fallacious/Invalid.
I tackled ALL your arguments,  and it has been proven moot while you keep on going back to the same argument that I said this, I said that etc.

*guess I'm back to this thread

[barrister]

Hindi ko sinabi but that's what I meant and still I interpreted this verse:

First, ang sabi mo, "IT SAYS."  And "by not modifying" pa, ang sabi mo.

Ngayon, ang sinasabi mo, "that's what I meant" and "I interpreted."

Pero ok lang yon sir, sanay naman ako sa mga nagpapalit ng statement pag naiipit, e... 

[rexFi]

Ok I do not believe in OSAS but I will tackle this(will be using NASB, literally unless with an asterisk) all through out.

It is not my own idea.  It's what the bible teaches.

===========================================

5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test? (2 Cor. 13:5)

If you are "in the faith" and "Christ Jesus is in you," then you are saved.  Unless you fail the test.  In the faith ka na, Christ Jesus is in you pa, pero kulang pa rin ---- if you fail the test, laglag ka pa rin.

Akala ko ba hindi na mawawala?  E bakit puwede pa ring mawala ang kaligtasan sa sitas na ito?  Kasi may kundisyon.  Kung hindi ka tutupad sa kundisyon, mawawala pa rin sa iyo ang kaligtasan. 

Again your adding something. You assume that the Test there is works? "It says"

5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves!

Again compared it to Ephesians 2:10 (which you do not tackle by the way in my past posts).

..Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?

Valid question: How do you become IN Christ again(and He in you)? See the interpretation that I presented in Ephesians 2:8-10 and case in point is verse 10.

2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. (1 Cor. 15:2)

By this gospel you are saved, ang sabi.  E di may faith ka na.  Pero kulang pa rin, kasi may condition ---- if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you.

Again you assume the condition is "works", nope, this is still Faith. *faith come through hearing, you accept it etc then refer to Ephesians 2:8-10.

E di puwede pa ring mawala.  Ligtas ka na raw, pero kailangang matiyaga mong iingatan ang salitang ipinangaral.  Pag hindi mo matiyagang iingatan, mawawala ang kaligtasan sa iyo.  Kaya nga ang sabi, "Otherwise, you have believed in vain."  Sayang lang ang faith mo, kasi hindi puwedeng faith lang ay tapos na ang lahat.  Kung faith lang ang kailangan, ano pala ang masasayang?  Di ba ang paniniwala ninyo, "faith alone" lang ang kailangan at tapos na?

paniniwala namin Faith Alone - produces good works. This one is saying that *hold on to Faith/Word

SO condition is the Faith. *please don't ask "where is the word alone there?

I see we not seeing each other eye to eye until you accept Ephesians 2:8-10.

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. ...  (Heb. 6:4-6)

1. ... who have once been enlightened,
2. who have tasted the heavenly gift,
3. who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
4. who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age.

Kung nasa kanya nang lahat iyan, siyempre naman ligtas na ang taong yon.  Pagkatapos na makuha niya ang kaligtasan, puwede pa bang mawala?  Siyempre naman.

Ang sabi sa sitas: "and who have fallen away."  E di puwede nga.

I AGREE

Puwede pa bang bumalik ang kaligtasan kung makuha mo at pagkatapos ay mawala?  Ang liwanag ng sagot: "It is impossible ... to be brought back to repentance."

If you look closely, "present tense" ang sa verse 6...

6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

See sa footnote, click here, it can be interpreted as "while" crucifying anew etc.

No, baliktad ang intindi mo sir. For you, doing good works insults the sacrifice of Jesus.  Hindi ganon sa bible. 

Sa bible, if you were once saved, you should continue your good works to honor Christ's sacrifice.  Because if you subsequently lose your salvation, you crucify and humiliate Christ all over again:

Nope, its continue to have faith(alone) that produces good works. See Ephesians 2:8-10.

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. (Heb. 6:4-6)

Yeph, dito present tense ang crucifying etc...

That is why after you receive the gift of salvation, you must continuously work to keep it.  Otherwise, salvation will be taken away from you, and no amount of repentance will bring back the salvation you lost:

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. (Heb. 10:26-27)

Deliberately sinning is a sign of "Faith" failing the test and eventually the person Spiritually dies.

[rexFi]

First, ang sabi mo, "IT SAYS."  And "by not modifying" pa, ang sabi mo.

Ngayon, ang sinasabi mo, "that's what I meant" and "I interpreted."

Pero ok lang yon sir, sanay naman ako sa mga nagpapalit ng statement pag naiipit, e... 

"IT SAYS."  And "by not modifying" parin ang sinabi ko sa post na kinoute mo. You keep ignoring, pinuputol mo lagi sinasabi ko, kaya ka nagiimbento ng kung ano ano eh. ^_^

See below:

...then you asked and tried to add the word "alone" when the verse is stand alone already and IT SAYS withouth adding anything, in this case you adding the word alone:

it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and NOT of works.

Now The Meaning as I say it says still stands as the correct one and yours is Fallacious/Invalid.
I tackled ALL your arguments,  and it has been proven moot while you keep on going back to the same argument that I said this, I said that etc.

*guess I'm back to this thread

See? Hindi ako nagpapalit ng argumento/statement while you ignore the whole post and keep on concentrating to discredit the person you are debating with.

Lalo na when I am saying that there is no difference on the interpretation of what Ephesians said to what I said. NA di mo naman tinatackle, invalid questioning lang.

Interchanging what I said Ephesians says and what Ephesians 2:8-9 does not change anything.

Actually tapos na dapat ang discussion because of your invalid question hence the product is your wrong interpretation. Humahaba lang kasi paulit ulit ka.

[barrister]

I think its time to say goodbye. ...God Speed to everyone.

I bid farewell to this thread. ^_^

My argument is so strong that he just has to come back:

*guess I'm back to this thread

And add just one last post...

... and maybe just another final post...

... no, maybe this one final, final, final post...   

[rexFi]

My argument is so strong that he just has to come back:


And add just one more post...

... and maybe just one last post...

... no, just one final, final, final post...   

[rexFi]

ok since you just keep on "avoiding" and just repeat yourself.

Without asking invalid questions in turn modifying this verse:

NASB:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Repeat without changing anything like you by asking your question in KJV

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Specially in connection with verse 10 without modifying it into working to be created etc.

[barrister]

No, just one final post ... 

[rexFi]

here to accommodate your objection *just recall my very first post about this...

KJV
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

then

...

Now ok, established? Paul taught that that a man is justified by faith without the works of the law.

So what does James Chapter 2 mean? It means Saving Faith is always accompanied by good Works or has fruit.

Now understand Ephesians 2:10 in relation to being saved by grace through faith:

10  For we are His workmanship,created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

The verse tells us we are created in christ FOR good works, not do GOOD works to be created IN Christ because in order to be IN Christ is through faith and NOT of works.
Perfect correlation with what James what saying without modifying anything.

If we say works saves then we are doing good works to be created in Christ Jesus. This is the very opposite of what the text states.

We are saved by faith alone but it is not alone - it is accompanied by works.

By not modifying anything, Sola Fide is drawn out from inside the Bible without any conflict.

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name" John 1:12

"But these things are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God and that believing you may have life in his name." John 20:31

"We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him." 1 John 5:18 (like what James was saying in 2, they were sinning by having favoritism towards the rich etc)

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10

...

the striked-through words from the KJV have been explain already by the next posts.
Sola Fide is drawn OUT from the Bible by letting the verses be.

[dpogs]

Paul speaks about "faith that saves"
James speaks about "faith that saves is not alone"

we need only faith to become son of God (born again spiritually). eto ang tinutukoy ni Paul.
once we become son of God (spiritually born), desire of milk as a newborn baby will manifest - desire of Word of God, good works will manifest as if it comes naturally, a desire to do good will always be there. That is genuine faith. That is faith that saves that is not alone. eto ang tinutukoy ni James.

a person who have blind faith (professing to be true christian but no genuine faith), desire of milk doesnt manifest, desire to do good work is not in her/his heart. that is why he/she keep on sinning because he/she has no 'faith that saves', remember na marami ang nagprophesy in His name, marami ang gumawa ng mabuti is God's name but never going to heaven... because what they have is blind faith not 'faith that saves' na tinutukoy ni Paul.

[barrister]

Sola Fide is drawn OUT from the Bible by letting the verses be.

And just one more final post ... 

[JT]

In the 18th century lived a french tightrope walker by the name of Charles Blondin. On 30 June 1859, he tried walking on tightrope across niagara gorge. He managed to cross it and the crowd was really impressed. After that, he told the crowd "Do u believe that I can cross this gorge with a man on my back. And the crowd says " we believe!!!".  Then Blondin says, who would like to be that man suddenly all was quiet and no one comes forward.

Until one man did step forward. Blondin successfuly crossed the gorge back and forth with this man on his back.



Now, Who has truly believe that Blondin can crossed the gorge with a man on his back? Who has shown true faith with Blondin?

Same is true with christian faith. You profess to have faith but are you willing to gve up your life for it?

Your FAITH justifies your salvation, but your ACTION justifies your FAITH as what Abraham did when he is willing to sacrifice Isaac because he believed in God.

[rexFi]

And just one more final post ... 

Sola Fide is drawn OUT from the Bible by letting the verses be NOT dreaming up questions asking Paul should have written something to make your Theology correct.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
Ephesians 2:8-10

Read up what Exegesis means.

...

I think its time to say goodbye.

For those interested in my Theological Background go to these sites:

http://www.fwponline.cc/ <- Fundamental Wesleyan, be sure to checkout the Arminian Magazine.
http://arminianperspectives.wordpress.com - great resource vs. Calvinists. The comment sections every article is great.
http://arminian.com/fundamental-wesleyan-society-bookstore.html - Wesleyan Basics
www.eternalsecurity.us/ <-- A Wesleyan-Arminian website, Good resource for Anti-OSAS.
http://www.eternalsecurity.us/biblical_theology.htm <-- the main site.
http://prewrathrapture.com <-- ehh, not dogmatic about this, but this was my last Eschatological position.

But I belong to this non-denominational denomination

http://www.cogic.org/ - YUP am Trinitarian Pentecostal I am the Drummer for our Worship Team, I can sing some too *ehem*

and this is where I "was" active in Polemics:

thebereans.net <-- just go to the forums. I was joe_higashi there.

God Speed to everyone.

[dpogs]

Your FAITH justifies your salvation, ...

justification before God...

..., but your ACTION justifies your FAITH as what Abraham did when he is willing to sacrifice Isaac because he believed in God.

justification before men...




if we say we have true faith, then we must show it by our works. if we say that we are son of God, then we must walk like a son of God.

we dont need to do good works to be son of God, we do good works because we are son of God.
we dont need to do good works to be a Christian, we do good works because we are Christian.

[tenderfender]

remember na marami ang nagprophesy in His name, marami ang gumawa ng mabuti is God's name but never going to heaven...

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. --- Matthew 7:21

paano ung ganito ito sir?
merong "DOES THE WILL"-- so implied na you need to DO SOMETHING? kelangan may action / works?

[Nelson de Leon]

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. --- Matthew 7:21

paano ung ganito ito sir?
merong "DOES THE WILL"-- so implied na you need to DO SOMETHING? kelangan may action / works?

because what they have is blind faith not 'faith that saves' na tinutukoy ni Paul.

In the 18th century lived a french tightrope walker by the name of Charles Blondin. On 30 June 1859, he tried walking on tightrope across niagara gorge. He managed to cross it and the crowd was really impressed. After that, he told the crowd "Do u believe that I can cross this gorge with a man on my back. And the crowd says " we believe!!!".  Then Blondin says, who would like to be that man suddenly all was quiet and no one comes forward.

Until one man did step forward. Blondin successfuly crossed the gorge back and forth with this man on his back.



Now, Who has truly believe that Blondin can crossed the gorge with a man on his back? Who has shown true faith with Blondin?

Same is true with christian faith. You profess to have faith but are you willing to gve up your life for it?

Your FAITH justifies your salvation, but your ACTION justifies your FAITH as what Abraham did when he is willing to sacrifice Isaac because he believed in God.

[Dilbert7]

Hebrews 6:4-6 verse is quite difficult – but will in no way invalidate the clear truth in the Bible that salvation is by faith as clear as Ephesians 2:8-9 declaration!

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good Word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame."  Hebrews 6:4-6

Again, there are many things that is attributed to faith – like the example of one here about a sick child etc etc. What we are saying here is the FAITH THAT LEADS TO SALVATION!

= = =

It all boils down to a Christian’s understanding of salvation – I hope some of you knew your verses:
(1) the author of salvation is Jesus
(2) the finisher of salvation is Jesus

Man did not initiate the first move of salvation. God sent His Son to die for his children – and then the HOLY SPIRIT went to action.

God did not assign to man the completion of his salvation – as suggested by some people here the we finish that salvation BY GOOD WORKS since FAITH alone is not enough.

If God is the one that makes salvation possible, and He is the one that will complete it – I do not know how much man can influence his own salvation! Then, they cite Heb 6:4-6. In fact, a similar verse exist in Romans 11:

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

= = =

The work of salvation is GOD’s alone – never partly God, and partly human. I will not try to convince people who do hold belief that they can contribute to their own salvation – as if they were tasked by GOD to COMPLETE their own SALVATION by their “GOOD WORKS”. Good luck anyway!

As said before, God sees the thought and intents of the heart. And lots of passages make the concept very clear – of course, there are some difficult passages that some “fabricators” will exploit to show otherwise, one of which is Heb 6:4-6. This is not new, and in fact same scenario was recorded in Galatians 2 when some Jewish Christians are propagating within the church the "GOOD WORKS (not BY FAITH ALONE)" thing!

11 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.

So how can salvation, being the work of God, be a failure in a man? Otherwise, God can be portrayed as lacking somewhere to effect salvation. So, to me, with GOD at the helm of my salvation, I can NEVER lose my salvation. I took Jesus’ work in CALVARY as the total price for the SALVATION that was given to me – no more addition, and no more subtraction.

= = =

In the book of James, some faith that was shown there is not about SAVING FAITH, though some of them also refers to ACTION coupling SAVING FAITH.

You see, sin, in God’s sight, is not found in action. It is determined by the INTENT and PURPOSE of heart. Remember, JESUS made SIN easier to commit:
(1) Whoever looks at a woman committed adultery
(2) Whoever hates a brother committed murder

Sin starts in the thought (mind). Once sin thought is firmed in the mind, evil action follows! In the same way, SAVING FAITH starts in the acceptance in the thought – and once it is there, action follows (FRUITs of the Spirit). It is not a sinless life though, but the Bible provide a mechanism for repentance.

So here comes the TREE-FRUIT relationship. A pretentious TREE will never bear a different FRUIT other than what that tree should bear. A Christian will always bring forth FRUIT of the SPIRIT - it is a natural consequences of being a Christian.

How much forgiveness does God reserved for His saints? He told somebody in the gospel to forgive “SEVENTY TIME SEVEN” – so does that mean you have to record 490 forgiveness before you ignore such repentance? Nah! To some Bible scholars, the words is about “ALWAYS”! Always forgive.

= = =

Some superficial belief (some called this FAITH as well) of “pious” people is also portrayed in the Bible. When the Lord throws SEEDS of SALVATION, the seeds fell on 3 type of grounds:
(1) the stony ground
(2) the weeded ground
(3) the good ground
Only in the GOOD GROUND will the SEED of SALVATION prosper.

= = =

So, I will offer my remembrance of tackling Heb 6:4-6

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good Word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame."  Hebrews 6:4-6

Note that the verse did not tell us anything about “TO RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO SALVATION” as one here suggested.

Note the word: IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY,

The statement is similar in manner as one of our saying –
     PAGPUTI NG UWAK, PAG-ITIM NG TAGAK

Of course you can always tell me it is possible in His sovereignty.  But the statement is merely a SUPPOSITION – not necessarily a POSSIBILITY! Again, this is going back on what is your take about GOD’s work of SALVATION!

If you got a wrong notion of PUTTING something into the RECIPE of your own SALVATION – well, suit yourself then. The BIBLE simply did not say it that way.

= = =

Is this for real? Look at Nineveh where Jonah preached!

Nineveh is bound for destruction based on their deeds. However, it seems GOD has plans to rescue the city.

So HE commanded Jonah. Jonah understood so well – he knew GOD really wanted to save the city.

But Jonah has many alibis into obeying God’s command – go separate ways. The rest is history. God led Jonah to a number of mishaps until he preached to Nineveh, Nineveh repented and was spared.

Jonah is not happy – he is disobedient.

Christians will never see the happiness in this worl if they continue their disobedience. God has ultimate recipe for that as well like what happened to Ananias & Saphira in the book of Acts (1 Corinthians 5:5).

[dpogs]

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. --- Matthew 7:21

paano ung ganito ito sir?
merong "DOES THE WILL"-- so implied na you need to DO SOMETHING? kelangan may action / works?

John 6:40 (NKJV) "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

saving faith is not alone, saving faith produces good fruit, saving faith produces good works, saving faith produces obedience towards the will of God. it only means that those who are going to heaven are those who do the will of God. a Christian with genuine faith can only do the will of God. thus, Jesus only means that only these genuine Christian can enter the kingdom because they are the only one who can do the will of God.

kung ang basehan natin ay ang pagsunod sa 'will of God', aba eh walang makaksunod niyan kahit isa. there is none rightoues no not one. no one doeth good. all our righteousness ay maikukumpara lamang sa maduming basahan sa harapan ng Diyos.

[barrister]

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. --- Matthew 7:21

paano ung ganito ito sir?
merong "DOES THE WILL"-- so implied na you need to DO SOMETHING? kelangan may action / works?

Ang labo, ano? 

kung ang basehan natin ay ang pagsunod sa 'will of God', aba eh walang makaksunod niyan kahit isa.

Walang makakasunod?  Bakit naman wala?

...there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright... (Job 1:1)

Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. (Gen. 6:9)

About The spouses Zechariah and Elizabeth:
6 Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly.  (Luke 1:6)

Note- that's ALL commands and decrees --- observing blamelessly.

[tenderfender]

Ang labo, ano? 

un din nga ang mejo question mark pa sa akin sir while reading through the recent discussions
that verse directly quotes Jesus Christ Himself (vis a vis the writings of Paul and James)

hindi daw automatic passport to heaven na magsabi ka ng "Lord Lord" (maging believer) pero dapat gawin ang WILL.

pagkinonek naman ang WILL OF THE FATHER sa sinabi ni sir dpogs na:

John 6:40 (NKJV) "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

so ang WILL OF THE FATHER is to BELIEVE / HAVE FAITH IN JESUS.

"catch 22" nga ba ang tawag sa ganito?

[JT]

un din nga ang mejo question mark pa sa akin sir while reading through the recent discussions
that verse directly quotes Jesus Christ Himself (vis a vis the writings of Paul and James)

hindi daw automatic passport to heaven na magsabi ka ng "Lord Lord" (maging believer) pero dapat gawin ang WILL.

pagkinonek naman ang WILL OF THE FATHER sa sinabi ni sir dpogs na:

so ang WILL OF THE FATHER is to BELIEVE / HAVE FAITH IN JESUS.

"catch 22" nga ba ang tawag sa ganito?

Isama mo pa itong nasa Philippians 2:12-13
"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

So paano na

[barrister]

pagkinonek naman ang WILL OF THE FATHER sa sinabi ni sir dpogs na:

so ang WILL OF THE FATHER is to BELIEVE / HAVE FAITH IN JESUS.

"catch 22" nga ba ang tawag sa ganito?

No, hindi catch 22 yan.  Ang tawag diyan, maling interpretation.

May mga salvation formula na talagang short cut ang presentation.  Bakit?  E kasi para sa mga baguhan yon.  Para madaling maintindihan, simplified ang presentation.

Ito na siguro ang simplest form:  31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” (Acts 16:31)

Simpleng simple di ba?  Believe, and you will be saved.  Parang "faith alone"?   No, kailangan makita natin ang sinaabi ng buong bible:

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.  (James 2:17)

Bakit ganon?  Sabi ng isa, believe and you will be saved.  Tapos sabi ng isa, kailangan ng works.  Alin ang tama?

Parehong tama.  Yung una, simplifed version para sa mga baguhan.  Pag may alam ka na sa salita ng Diyos, yung pangalawa na ang para sa iyo.

Parang ganito.  Mag-enroll ka sa college of medicine para maging doktor ka.  Simplified version yon, pero hindi mali.  Kaya lang, ang intindi nila, mag-enroll ka lang sa college of medicine, OK ka na, basta magiging doktor ka kahit wala ka nang gawing iba pa.  Kasi ang doktrina nila, "enroll alone."   

Meron ba talagang ganon sa bible, yung simplified version para sa mga hindi pa marunong, tapos yung mabibigat na aral para sa mga may alam na?

Siyempre naman.

Ang tawag ni Pablo sa mga hindi pa maalam, mga "infants."  Anong Word of God ang ipapakain ni Pablo sa mga sanggol?  Siyempre gatas muna, hindi pa solid food:

1 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. ... (1 Cor. 3:1-2)


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Madali namang mahalata ang may unawa sa Salita ng Diyos.

Naranasan ko rin noon yan.  Yung pastor, daldal nang daldal, napakalabo naman ng sinasabi.  Yun pala, simple lang ang kahulugan ng verses. 

Kaya pala ang labo ng explanation ni pastor.  Kasi hindi rin niya naintindihan ... 

[tenderfender]

^^
"theory + application = expert practitioner"   

[dpogs]

parang ganito yan...

faith first then work will manifest...

if work doesnt manifest... then your faith is dead (blind faith) - yan ang sinasabi ni James.

Isama mo pa itong nasa Philippians 2:12-13
"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

So paano na

work out... hind sinabing "work FOR your own salvation".

parang nag wowork out yan sa gym... kaya siya nagwoworkout para maging physically fit ang kanyang katawan... hidni siya magwoworkout para magkaroon siya ng katawan... o di kaya makumpleto ang kanyang katawan... meron na siyang katawan...

[JT]

parang ganito yan...

faith first then work will manifest...

if work doesnt manifest... then your faith is dead (blind faith) - yan ang sinasabi ni James.

work out... hind sinabing "work FOR your own salvation".

parang nag wowork out yan sa gym... kaya siya nagwoworkout para maging physically fit ang kanyang katawan... hidni siya magwoworkout para magkaroon siya ng katawan... o di kaya makumpleto ang kanyang katawan... meron na siyang katawan...

So what happens pag di nag workout? Ano ba talaga yung work na kailangan?

 

[dpogs]

So what happens pag di nag workout?

he/she will remain as a babe in christ...

1 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. ... (1 Cor. 3:1-2)

pag sinabing work out... you grow as a christian with fear and treambling - zealousness... dont stay as a chiild/infants in Christ... you need to eat (Word of God) to grow, you need to work out - do good things to reflect as a Christian to others, you need to be strong because this world is full of wickedness... that is working out my salvation... i am not working for my salvation... i am working out my salvation with fear and trembling... i am building my testimony (my faith, my salvation) with zealousness.


naaalala ko kasi sabi ng lola ko... kapag hindi raw ako gumawa ng mabuti pupunta ako ng impiyerno... tapos sinabi ng pari namin na kapag naniwala ako pero hindi ako gumawa ng mabuti pupunta ako ng impiyerno... sa sobrang inis ko naging atheist ako... kasi araw araw nagkakasala ako... araw araw puwde akong pumunta ng impiyerno...

kaya nga tanong ko sa sarili ko: kung kailangan kong gumawa ng mabuti para mapunta ng langit... kailan matatapos ang ganito... kailan ko masasabi na my work is good enough for me to say na i kept the faith?

[barrister]

kaya nga tanong ko sa sarili ko: kung kailangan kong gumawa ng mabuti para mapunta ng langit... kailan matatapos ang ganito... kailan ko masasabi na my work is good enough for me to say na i kept the faith?

Kailan matatapos?  Simple lang.  Pag malapit ka nang mamatay.

Kasi kahit natanggap mo na ang kaligtasan, puwede pa ring maiwala ito, at pag naiwala, hindi na puwedeng maibalik uli:

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. ...  (Heb. 6:4-6)

Hindi tayo nakakatiyak ngayon mismo na mapupunta tayo sa langit, kasi hindi rin natin tiyak kung makakagawa pa tayo in the future ng kasalanang ikamamatay .

Dahil dito, hindi rin natin dapat sabihin agad ngayon na sigurado na tayo sa langit.  Pag sinabi mong "Once Saved, Always Saved," ngayon pa lang, sinasabi mong sigurado ka na sa langit, which is not biblical.

Kaya nga si Pablo, noong sa tingin niya ay malapit na siyang mamatay, doon lang niya nasabing, "I have kept the faith":

6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.  7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:  8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.  (2 Tim. 4:6-8)

E noong sa tingin ni Pablo ay malayo pa ang kamatayan niya, ano ang sabi niya?

10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. (Phil. 3:10-14)

Notice that Paul clearly says, "I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it."  Because it is an ongoing process.  And it is not an easy process --- that is why Paul said he was "press(ing) on" and "straining toward what is ahead." 

Si Pablo, nasabi lang niyang mapupunta siya sa langit nang malapit na siyang mamatay.  Ang "Once Saved, Always Saved," ngayon pa lang, langit na raw sila.  Yabang naman non, talo pa si Pablo ... 

[dpogs]

Kailan matatapos?  Simple lang.  Pag malapit ka nang mamatay.

Kasi kahit natanggap mo na ang kaligtasan, puwede pa ring maiwala ito, at pag naiwala, hindi na puwedeng maibalik uli:

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. ...  (Heb. 6:4-6)

Hindi tayo nakakatiyak ngayon mismo na mapupunta tayo sa langit, kasi hindi rin natin tiyak kung makakagawa pa tayo in the future ng kasalanang ikamamatay .

Dahil dito, hindi rin natin dapat sabihin agad ngayon na sigurado na tayo sa langit.  Pag sinabi mong "Once Saved, Always Saved," ngayon pa lang, sinasabi mong sigurado ka na sa langit, which is not biblical.

Kaya nga si Pablo, noong sa tingin niya ay malapit na siyang mamatay, doon lang niya nasabing, "I have kept the faith":

6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.  7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:  8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.  (2 Tim. 4:6-8)

E noong sa tingin ni Pablo ay malayo pa ang kamatayan niya, ano ang sabi niya?

10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. (Phil. 3:10-14)

Notice that Paul clearly says, "I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it."  Because it is an ongoing process.  And it is not an easy process --- that is why Paul said he was "press(ing) on" and "straining toward what is ahead." 

Si Pablo, nasabi lang niyang mapupunta siya sa langit nang malapit na siyang mamatay.  Ang "Once Saved, Always Saved," ngayon pa lang, langit na raw sila.  Yabang naman non, talo pa si Pablo ... 

ah... hindi pala nagkakalayo sa sinasabi ng roman catholics.

[Dilbert7]

Isama mo pa itong nasa Philippians 2:12-13
"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

So paano na

Take note of the phrase WORK OUT - it is not WORK FOR!

And see the remedy of God in the showing of the FRUITS of the SPIRIT - it is God who works in you both TO WILL and to do HIS GOOD PLEASURE!

This does not imply you add your GOOD WORKS to your faith so you can be saved!

= = =

Further, FAITH is not saying "You are God, or I believe you" - everybody can say that, even Satan can do that. FAITH that exist in the mind of man, as a result of divine enlightenment is much more than that.

= = =

Any lawyer can win their debate according to their understanding - for somehow, the reasoning is illogical to them (malabo). This is not surprising - even in Jesus time, the lawyers knowledgeable in the Laws & the Prophets, failed to understand "everything" about Jesus. Even PAUL himself, being a lawyer, can debate everybody, and win his arguments.

Only until his mind was opened by divine intervention did he appreciated and connected the dots of the old testament.

In the same way, divine intervention in human to plant FAITH unto SALVATION is also necessary.

To me (as I appreciated my Bible), it is impossible for man, BY HIMSELF, to know how corrupt he is before a HOLY God. Man will still insist that he can do something right before God to merit GOD attention toward Him.

It is a good example to cite Noah, of Elijah, or Abe into the picture. People can only see the outward - God determines the inside! This is similar with PAUL, the intervention of GOD to the human thinking will cause a human being to do God's bidding.

Thus, God's word is consistent that SAVING FAITH is always coupled by good works (as we see it humanly) - but far from making GOOD WORKS as contributory to SALVATION. That's a NO NO!

Nowhere was it said that Noah, Abe, David, all Bible heroes were all saved because of both FAITH and GOOD WORKS! In Hebrews 11, it showed that FAITH is the cause of all the GOOD WORKS of those GREAT MEN OF FAITH!

So these people preaching FAITH plus GOOD WORKS are themselves never sure about their own standing - for how much GOOD WORKS is ENOUGH - especially if a lawyer is saying that "Obedience is unto all the Law" like the case of some of the great heroes of Bible?

Romans 3:23 can not contradict the OLD testament. Even those in the OT who "lived a holy life in accordance to the whole law" like Job and Noah have sinned!

= = =

Nowhere in the Bible can you find that salvation can be lost! All that the Bible said is about the impossibility of a certain event - "to fall away, and to be brought back to repentance". SALVATION was never mentioned as lost! People just make so many conclusion too far just to prove their point.

= = =

Actually, hindi lang catholics ang humahawak ng principle ng FAITH + GOOD works = salvation. Lahat ng religion, yan ang tema! and this should not be a surprise. Same substance - just different names & presentation!

When PAUL said "I have kept the faith" - is not tantamount to saying "I HAVE KEPT MY SALVATION" - this is an absurd interpretation! IMHO, this is the confusion of their semantics. Neither did it mean "I HAVE SUFFICIENT GOOD WORKS TO ATTACH TO MY FAITH TO MERIT SALVATION" - that's how they want it interpreted.

[barrister]

Thus, God's word is consistent that SAVING FAITH is always coupled by good works (as we see it humanly) - but far from making GOOD WORKS as contributory to SALVATION. That's a NO NO!

Paano raw?  Faith is always coupled with good works, pero good works are not contributory to salvation?  Magkasama dapat yung dalawa, pero walang silbi yung isa?

Labo talaga ...     Kung magkasama dapat yung dalawa, e di pareho silang importante.



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Faith without good works is dead:

26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. (James 2: 26)

Faith and good works should go together, because faith is made complete by good works:

22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. (James 2: 22)

Faith and good works should go together because faith without good works is useless.  Therefore, you are considered righteous by your good works.  You are not considered righteous by faith alone:

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? ... 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. (James 2: 20; 24)

Yan ang malinaw ...