Author Topic: The Religion Thread  (Read 362116 times)

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Offline JT

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #840 on: Sep 26, 2012 at 03:42 AM »
Hebrews 6:4-6 verse is quite difficult – but will in no way invalidate the clear truth in the Bible that salvation is by faith as clear as Ephesians 2:8-9 declaration!

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good Word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame."  Hebrews 6:4-6

Again, there are many things that is attributed to faith – like the example of one here about a sick child etc etc. What we are saying here is the FAITH THAT LEADS TO SALVATION!

Actually the key in understanding this verse is considering to whom Paul is addressing it. This was for Jews who has converted from Judaism into Christianity. We know Judaism has rejected Jesus as the promised Messiah (and as Son of God) so they continue with Moses Law. FALLING AWAY here refers to falling away from FAITH and not from SIN. REPENTANCE in greek is METANOIA which means CHANGE OF MIND. Because for salvation by grace all sins are forgiven, past present and future. Here Paul is referring to Jews who became christians then went back to Judaism which means they have to again reject Jesus redemptive work on the cross, reject salvation by grace. And this is the unpardonable sin in which God brings condemnation already.


It is really interesting how far this will go further as both "FAITH ALONE" and "FAITH+WORKS" group has scriptures to backup their claims.

Both parties has been using the same scriptures again and again. And this has been the same argument between christians from the very beginning.

For me, both are correct as both are scriptural and the bible says the scripture cannot be broken. But before I layout my argument, I just want to hear for more post hoping someone will find the scripture that will reconcile both and get to the bottomline of this.

One of my keypoint is that it is UNBELIEF that will lead you to hell, not sin.


Offline barrister

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #841 on: Sep 26, 2012 at 02:23 PM »
Papyrus fragment quoting 'wife' of Jesus raises questions for Christianity
by: JOHN FOLLAIN
From: The Sunday Times
September 24, 2012 12:00AM

Karen King, Hollis professor of divinity at Harvard University, argues that the brownish-yellow fragment of a book in ancient Egyptian Coptic is from the 4th century and the earliest known proof that some early Christians believed that Jesus was married. She christened it "the gospel of Jesus's wife".

The discovery, she says, "should lead us to rethink how Christianity understood sexuality and marriage in a very positive way. And to see that the notion that celibacy and virginity and the repudiation of pleasure in marriage - to see marriage as solely for the production of children alone - that those positions were ... not the only positions in early Christianity".

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/papyrus-fragment-quoting-wife-of-jesus-raises-questions-for-christianity/story-fnb64oi6-1226479776707

« Last Edit: Sep 26, 2012 at 02:23 PM by barrister »

Offline lisa_mae

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #842 on: Sep 26, 2012 at 02:39 PM »
Two greatest invention of Man:
  • Religion
  • Money

Offline dpogs

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #843 on: Sep 26, 2012 at 02:56 PM »
Sir Barrister,

Based on how you read the Bible, can you consider yoursel as of today as saint? or will you allow someone (for example apostle Paul) to call you a saint? we know that a saint in Biblical term (hindi iyong katulad ng sa RC) are simply those who are son of God.

How will you measure that what you are doing is good enough to keep your salvation?

How about a sudden death (wag naman sana), for any reason the cause of your death is instant, no time to confess everything, what will be the status of your salvation?

There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline barrister

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #844 on: Sep 26, 2012 at 04:17 PM »
I won't answer questions 1 and 3, but I can discuss question 2.  Once you know how I answer #2, you will know how I answer questions 1 and 3.



How will you measure that what you are doing is good enough to keep your salvation?

Jesus said:

6 ... I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.(Jn. 14: 6)

You get to the Father through Jesus Christ.  That's why Christ calls Himself "the way."  And how does Christ become "the way"?

Christ is the way by which we should walk.  So if He is the road, you walk along that road.  You don't stray outside of the path where the road leads.

And what is this road or path?  Christ is talking about following His commandments.  You follow His commandments, and you follow the path towards the Father.  Very simple, isn't it? 

Clearly, therefore, it's your obligation to know what those commandments are.  Then it's going to be your obligation to follow those commandments.

So how do you measure if your works are good enough?  You measure your works against the commandments of Christ.  If you're following His commandments, then you measure up.  Otherwise, you don't measure up.

What if you honestly thought that you measured up, but you were in fact mistaken in your estimations?  God will decide, not you, because God knows if your mistake was an honest one or not. 

Sa Once Saved Always Saved, bakit aalamin mo pa ang commandments ni Kristo?  Di ba ligtas ka na kahit ano pa ang gawin mo?  Huwag mo nang alamin ang commandments, kasi kahit ano pa ang gawin mo, ligtas ka pa rin.

Meron namang interpretation, may good works din daw, pero automatic daw ang good works na yon pag ligtas ka na.  Kung automatic ang good works, hindi na kailangang alamin ang commandments ni Kristo para sumunod sa commandments na iyon.  Bakit pa, e kahit ano ang gawin ko, sigurado namang "good" yon kasi automatic nga ang good works pag ligtas ka.

That's how absurd the OSAS doctrine becomes, when the truth of the matter is that following the right path is not only required, it's also very difficult.  That is why the bible says:

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (Mt. 7:13-14)

It's not going to be an easy thing to do, as if being saved meant that good works come so easily that they arise automatically.  In fact, it's going to be a war-like struggle:

11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. (Eph. 6:11-12)
 
That is how you work out your own salvation.  Know Christ's commandments and follow them.  Only you can do it for yourself, because you have free will.  If you want to do it, well and good; if not, then it's up to you. 

Does that mean Christ's sacrifice was useless?  Of course not.  Whereas without Christ's sacrifice, you won't get to heaven, no matter what you do.  With Christ's sacrifice, salvation is now possible, as long as you yourself work and follow His commandments.  That's how important Christ's death on the cross was, yet it still doesn't mean that we are no longer required to do good works.

« Last Edit: Sep 26, 2012 at 05:04 PM by barrister »

Offline dpogs

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #845 on: Sep 26, 2012 at 04:32 PM »
I won't answer questions 1 and 3, but I can discuss question 2.  Once you know how I answer #2, you will know how I answer questions 1 and 3.



Jesus said:

6 ... I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.(Jn. 14: 6)

You get to the Father through Jesus Christ.  That's why Christ calls Himself "the way."  And how does Christ become "the way"?

Christ is the way by which we should walk.  So if He is the road, you walk along that road.  You don't stray outside of the path where the road leads.

And what is this road or path?  Christ is talking about following His commandments.  You follow His commandments, and you follow the path towards the Father.  Very simple, isn't it? 

Clearly, therefore, it's your obligation to know what those commandments are.  Then it's going to be your obligation to follow those commandments.

So how do you measure if you're works are good enough?  You measure your works against the commandments of Christ.  If you're following His commandments, then you measure up.  Otherwise, you don't measure up.

What if you honestly thought that you measured up, but you were in fact mistaken in your estimations?  God will decide, not you, because God knows if your mistake was an honest one or not. 

Sa Once Saved Always Saved, bakit aalamin mo pa ang commandments ni Kristo?  Di ba ligtas ka na kahit ano pa ang gawin mo?  Huwag mo nang alamin ang commandments, kasi kahit ano pa ang gawin mo, ligtas ka pa rin.

Meron namang interpretation, may good works din daw, pero automatic daw ang good works na yon pag ligtas ka na.  Kung automatic ang good works, hindi na kailangang alamin ang commandments ni Kristo para sumunod sa commandments na iyon.  Bakit pa, e kahit ano ang gawin ko, sigurado namang "good" yon kasi automatic nga ang good works pag ligtas ka.

That's how absurd the OSAS doctrine becomes, when the truth of the matter is that following the right path is not only required, it's also very difficult.  That is why the bible says:

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (Mt. 7:13-14)

It's not going to be an easy thing to do, as if being saved meant that good works come so easily that they arise automatically.  In fact, it's going to be a war-like struggle:

11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. (Eph. 6:11-12)
 
That is how you work out your own salvation.  Know Christ's commandments and follow them.  Only you can do it for yourself, because you have free will.  If you want to do it, well and good; if not, then it's up to you. 

Does that mean Christ's sacrifice was useless?  Of course not.  Whereas without Christ's sacrifice, you won't get to heaven, no matter what you do.  With Christ's sacrifice, salvation is now possible, as long as you yourself work and follow His commandments.  That's how important Christ's death on the cross was, yet it still doesn't mean that we are no longer required to do good works.

Got it. Thanks.
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline JT

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #846 on: Sep 28, 2012 at 02:44 PM »
***** FAITH THAT WORKS *****
Paul says,
"because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight . . . " (Rom. 3:20)
"for we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law," (Rom. 3:28)
"For what does the Scripture say? ‘And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness'" (Rom. 4:3)
"Therefore, having been justified by faith . . . " (Rom. 5:1)
"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).

James says,
"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone," (James 2:24)
" . . . so also faith without works is dead," (James 2:26).


So which is it? Are we justified by faith or by works or do we need both?  If faith+works then, what is the work required? What to workout for our faith?

We always qoute what Paul or James says.  Now pls hear what Peter has to say in 2 Peter 1:1-11 (NKJV) pertaining to works related to salvation:

"Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your FAITH virtue, to VIRTUE knowledge, to KNOWLEDGE self-control, to SELF-CONTROL perseverance, to PERSEVERANCE godliness, to GODLINESS brotherly kindness, and to BROTHERLY KINDNESS LOVE. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. FOR HE WHO LACKS THESE THINGS IS SHORTSIGHTED, EVEN TO BLINDNESS, AND FORGOTTEN THAT HE WAS CLEANSED FROM HIS OLD SINS. [<-- this is where the UNBELIEF starts where christians (even leaders or elders) has the tendency to fall out of salvation by God's grace and back to salvation by works.]

Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."


So although FAITH alone merits us SALVATION, Peter is saying we have effort (WORKS) needed in order to SECURE it.

All the works we need to do are covered here (in v5-7) not for salvation but to secure God's calling and election. Note also that it is not by outward BEHAVIOUR MODIFICATION but by inward CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT.

How to develop this Godly character is another topic hope to have next time. But basically we need REPENTANCE (change of mind) and all of God's GRACE, not just for SAVING but also for RESTORING, for SUSTAINING and for TRANSFORMING as well.

Romans 12:2 says "And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God."

And why do we need to secure it? Because the devil will do everything to keep you out of agreement with God. To make you forget or doubt the promise of Romans 10:9-10 (NKJV) "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the  heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Consider the temptation with Eve. Why did the snake tempted Eve to eat the fruit? Why not tempt to kill Adam or blaspheme God? It is because the agreement with God is not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.   

The same is very true with us now. The same schemes from the devil to give us lies, confusion and doubt in our hearts and minds because these are the real battlegrounds in this spiritual battle we are on. The whole armor of God mentioned in Ephesians 6:11 is to protect these two. Our UNBELIEF is his main goal.

Thats also why now there are so many sickness affecting mental health (eg down syndrome, authism, schizo, etc) because the devil doesnt want us to have a sound mind.  As well as many religions and idealogies.  Many mind conditioning like yoga, meditations,etc. To keep us away from this truth.

The bible got so many things to reveal on this and these are just keypoints.

So for now I close with Ephesians 2:8-10 (NKJV) and we dont missed out v10 in which Paul is saying ...
"8 For by GRACE you have been saved through FAITH, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR GOOD WORKS, which God prepared beforehand THAT WE SHOULD WALK IN THEM.

Hope it clarifies.  God bless.

Offline sardaukar

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #847 on: Sep 29, 2012 at 08:08 AM »

Offline frootloops

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #848 on: Oct 24, 2012 at 09:55 PM »
At 55, Manila Archbishop Tagle to become world's youngest cardinal

October 24, 2012 7:19pm
(Updated 8:56 p.m.) Manila Archbishop Luis Antonio Tagle will be among the six non-European Roman Catholic prelates who will join the Vatican's College of Cardinals in November, Pope Benedict XVI announced Wednesday.

At 55, Tagle will become the world's youngest cardinal and has been touted as a future papal contender. Cardinals advise the pontiff and elect his successor among themselves upon his death. The newest group of appointees will bring the total number of cardinals world-wide to 120.

The other new cardinals will be the American James Michael Harvey, Lebanon's Bechara Boutros Rahi, India's Baselios Cleemis, Nigeria's John Onaiyekan and Colombia's Ruben Salazar Gomez.

Pope Benedict XVI announced this Wednesday in a move which may affect the election of the future pope.

At the end of the weekly general audience, Benedict said he would be appointing cardinals in a surprise consistory, the second to be held this year.

The college, the elite body that advises the pontiff and elects his successor upon his death, is currently heavily weighted in favor of Europe.


Full Story :
http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/story/279536/news/nation/at-55-manila-archbishop-tagle-to-become-world-s-youngest-cardinal

Offline Klaus Weasley

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #849 on: Oct 24, 2012 at 10:05 PM »
I'm pretty sure most if not all of these cardinals are hardcore conservatives. They seldom promote anyone who's even the least bit liberal.

Offline bananabond

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #850 on: Oct 26, 2012 at 08:49 PM »
Yung mga naniniwala sa "once saved always saved" para magkaroon pa din sila ng excuse na gawkn yung mga gusto nilang gawin na sins.

Offline rascal101

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #851 on: Oct 26, 2012 at 08:58 PM »
I'm pretty sure most if not all of these cardinals are hardcore conservatives. They seldom promote anyone who's even the least bit liberal.

Is there any other way to follow Jesus? Are your actions based on Jesus' examples?

Offline Klaus Weasley

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #852 on: Oct 26, 2012 at 09:13 PM »
Is there any other way to follow Jesus? Are your actions based on Jesus' examples?

My way of following Jesus does not involve coddling child molesters, subjugating women and condemning homosexuals.

The Jesus I know railed against religious hypocrisy and institutionalized religion of His time (the Pharisees and the Scribes, etc.). He was basically a liberal socialist.

Offline Nelson de Leon

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #853 on: Oct 27, 2012 at 12:38 AM »
My way of following Jesus does not involve coddling child molesters, subjugating women and condemning homosexuals.

The Jesus I know railed against religious hypocrisy and institutionalized religion of His time (the Pharisees and the Scribes, etc.). He was basically a liberal socialist.

Same Jesus Christ in the bible?  ;)

Offline rascal101

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #854 on: Oct 27, 2012 at 04:30 AM »
My way of following Jesus does not involve coddling child molesters, subjugating women and condemning homosexuals.

The Jesus I know railed against religious hypocrisy and institutionalized religion of His time (the Pharisees and the Scribes, etc.). He was basically a liberal socialist.

You have already judged these people beforehand! Are you a judge?
« Last Edit: Oct 27, 2012 at 04:36 AM by rascal101 »

Offline thebat

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #855 on: Oct 27, 2012 at 03:26 PM »
How come ang tawag sa catholic priest ay "father?" When and how did this address start?
« Last Edit: Oct 27, 2012 at 03:26 PM by thebat »
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Offline Klaus Weasley

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #856 on: Oct 27, 2012 at 07:08 PM »
You have already judged these people beforehand! Are you a judge?

I will throw my question back to you: Who are *they* to judge who are sinners and what is sinful? Who are *they* to try and dictate who we use our genitals? Who are *they* to control what we think? Who are *they* to say that they have the moral authority to dictate public policy? Who are *they* to lecture us on morality when the institution they serve is rife with corruption and perversion?

Offline barrister

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #857 on: Oct 27, 2012 at 07:11 PM »
How come ang tawag sa catholic priest ay "father?" When and how did this address start?

The origin of the title can no longer be traced, but it has been customary for Catholics to call priests "father" ever since their denomination started.  I'm aware that Catholics insist that their group started in 33 AD, and that it was founded by Christ Himself, but I estimate that their group actually started around 400 AD.
 
Catholic Priest Fr. William Saunders claims that the title was used even before 400 AD:
 
Since the earliest times of our Church, we have used the title "Father" for religious leaders. Bishops, who are the shepherds of the local Church community and the authentic teachers of the faith, were given the title "Father." Actually, until about the year 400, a bishop was called "papa" for Father; this title was then restricted solely to addressing the Bishop of Rome, the successor of St. Peter, and in English was rendered "pope."
 
In an early form of his rule, St. Benedict (d. c. 547) designated the title to spiritual confessors, since they were the guardians of souls. Moreover, the word "abbot," denoting the leader in faith of the monastic community, is derived from the word abba, the Aramaic Hebrew word for father, but in the very familiar sense of "daddy."
 
Later, in the Middle Ages, the term "father" was used to address the mendicant friars—like the Franciscans and Dominicans—since by their preaching, teaching and charitable works they cared for the spiritual and physical needs of all of God's children. In more modern times, the heads of male religious communities, or even those who participate in ecumenical councils such as Vatican II, are given the title "father." In the English-speaking world, addressing all priests as "Father" has become customary.
 
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/WHYFATHR.htm
 
 
« Last Edit: Oct 28, 2012 at 10:55 AM by barrister »

Offline rascal101

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #858 on: Oct 27, 2012 at 10:18 PM »
I will throw my question back to you: Who are *they* to judge who are sinners and what is sinful? Who are *they* to try and dictate who we use our genitals? Who are *they* to control what we think? Who are *they* to say that they have the moral authority to dictate public policy? Who are *they* to lecture us on morality when the institution they serve is rife with corruption and perversion?


Eh ikaw, sino ka bang nag-lelecture? Eh kung sinabi ko na maraming tao ang nagmomolestya na galing sa pinanggagalingan mong trabaho eh di lumalabas nagmomolestya ka rin. Huwag kang magbintang baka ikaw din ang mabintangan. Hindi ba madalas na iyung nagbibintang siya rin ganun ang ginagawa. Ayaw lang niya pahalata.
« Last Edit: Oct 27, 2012 at 10:19 PM by rascal101 »

Offline Klaus Weasley

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #859 on: Oct 27, 2012 at 11:56 PM »
Eh ikaw, sino ka bang nag-lelecture? Eh kung sinabi ko na maraming tao ang nagmomolestya na galing sa pinanggagalingan mong trabaho eh di lumalabas nagmomolestya ka rin. Huwag kang magbintang baka ikaw din ang mabintangan. Hindi ba madalas na iyung nagbibintang siya rin ganun ang ginagawa. Ayaw lang niya pahalata.

Of course, I know that there are child molesters from all walks of life. Hindi lang pari. As I said before that what makes the Catholic Church scandal heinous was the fact that the Church, as an institution, opted to cover up the crimes of their priests and just move them from parish to parish causing even MORE harm to MORE children. This went on for years and years and years. Had they did the right thing and turned over the offending priests to the police and defrock them if convicted, then it wouldn't be as big a scandal.

Offline Nelson de Leon

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #860 on: Oct 28, 2012 at 12:32 AM »
What's the history of the "sign of the cross" action before a prayer? And why do you have to say "In the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" before and after prayer?

Offline rascal101

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #861 on: Oct 28, 2012 at 05:30 AM »
Of course, I know that there are child molesters from all walks of life. Hindi lang pari. As I said before that what makes the Catholic Church scandal heinous was the fact that the Church, as an institution, opted to cover up the crimes of their priests and just move them from parish to parish causing even MORE harm to MORE children. This went on for years and years and years. Had they did the right thing and turned over the offending priests to the police and defrock them if convicted, then it wouldn't be as big a scandal.

Now there are 10 commandments which can be broken down to love of Man and love of God. There is one that says do not bear false witness against thy neighbor. When you accuse a group of people but fail to single out (and prove) who the offender really is what does that say about you?

By your logic since people of authority also commit sin or at fault, what authority do they have over us? In that case, we should not be following any laws because people of authority also commit sins or at fault.

Since you are a sinner (I am saying this in the basis that no one is free from sin except God), what authority do you have that people should do this or that? Do you even have one by your own logic?
« Last Edit: Oct 28, 2012 at 06:58 AM by rascal101 »

Offline Klaus Weasley

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #862 on: Oct 28, 2012 at 11:28 AM »
When you accuse a group of people but fail to single out (and prove) who the offender really is what does that say about you?

What I say about the Catholic Church is true. Haven't you been reading the news?

Quote
By your logic since people of authority also commit sin or at fault, what authority do they have over us? In that case, we should not be following any laws because people of authority also commit sins or at fault.

The government does not claim a direct line from God. The government (and other authorities) do not claim infallibility. We also have the power to vote them out if they commit sins. We do not have such a power in the Church. The Church quashes any criticism lobbied against them with WE SAY GOD SAID SO AND IF YOU DISAGREE, YOU'RE GOING TO HELL!

Quote
Since you are a sinner (I am saying this in the basis that no one is free from sin except God), what authority do you have that people should do this or that? Do you even have one by your own logic?

I don't claim any authority to tell people what to do. If you wanna follow the Catholic Church, fine by me. Just tell the Church to stay the hell away from sticking its nose in the Philippine government and affecting public policy.

I find it absolutely HILARIOUS that Catholic priests like to give people advice on marriage and telling people what to do with their sexuality since they're celibate single men. It's like vegetarians giving people advice on how to cook and eat meat.

Offline barrister

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #863 on: Oct 28, 2012 at 11:29 AM »
What's the history of the "sign of the cross" action before a prayer?

I assume that you're asking about Catholicism?
 
The origin of the sign of the cross is so ancient that it can no longer be traced.  Earliest historical records mentioning the practice date to circa 300 AD.
 
The sign of the cross is not biblical, but old habits seem to die hard.  Protestants ostensibly reject the sign of the cross, since they like to reject anything associated with Catholicism.  Yet Martin Luther himself did not reject its use, and Lutheranism never officially abandoned the practice.
 
For a sect that declares the bible to be the only source of divinely revealed knowledge, and the only norm for Christian teaching, it's puzzling why they can't seem to officially get rid of the sign of the cross.  :D
 
Wikipedia says:
 
During the 19th and early 20th centuries it was largely in disuse until the liturgical renewal movement of the 1950s and 1960s. Since then, the sign of the cross has become fairly commonplace among Lutherans at worship. The sign of the cross is now customary in the Divine Service.[12][13] Rubrics in Contemporary Lutheran worship manuals, including Evangelical Lutheran Worship[14] and Lutheran Service Book,[15] provide for making the sign of the cross at certain points in the liturgy. Most places are the same as the Roman Catholic practice, such as at the trinitarian formula, the benediction, at the consecration of the Eucharist, and following reciting the Nicene or Apostles'Creed.
 
Devotional use of the sign of the cross among Lutherans also includes after receiving the Host and Chalice in the Eucharist, following Holy Absolution. Sometimes there is also holy water font or baptismal font at the entrance of the church, where they may dip their fingers in it and make the sign of the cross upon entering.
 
...Methodist churches, such as the United Methodist Church, are essentially a product of the Protestant Reformation.[16] and so the sign of the cross is generally uncommon in a Methodist service (especially as compared to an Anglican service or a Catholic Mass). John Wesley, the principle leader of the early Methodists, prepared a revision of The Book of Common Prayer for Methodist use called The Sunday Service of the Methodists in North America which does instruct the minister to make the sign of the cross on the forehead of children just after they have been baptized.[17] Making the sign of the cross at baptism is retained in the current Book of Worship, and widely practiced (sometimes with oil).[18] Furthermore, on Ash Wednesday the sign of the cross is almost always applied by the elder to the foreheads of the laity.[19] The liturgy for healing and wholeness, which is becoming more commonly practiced, calls for the pastor to make the sign of the cross with oil upon the foreheads of those seeking healing[20]. Whether or not a Methodist uses the sign for private prayer is a personal choice, and is encouraged by the bishops of the United Methodist Church.[21] Some United Methodists also perform the sign before and after receiving Holy Communion, and some ministers also perform the sign when blessing the congregation at the end of the sermon or service.[22]
 
 
 
 
And why do you have to say "In the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" before and after prayer?

You don't have to say it.
 
In Mt. 6, Jesus taught us how to pray.  Sabi Niya: "This, then, is how you should pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, ..."
 
Meron bang "In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" doon?  Wala naman, di ba?  ;)
 
Even in Catholicism, the sign of the cross and the recitation of "In the name of..." are not required before and/or after prayer.  Yes, they are traditional practices, but they are not requirements.
 
In Catholicism, the recitation of "In the name of..." is not just an intro/outro of prayer, but is actually a prayer itself.  They consider it to be the most basic prayer, and should be the first prayer that a very young child learns.
 
« Last Edit: Oct 28, 2012 at 11:33 AM by barrister »

Offline bass_nut

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #864 on: Oct 28, 2012 at 03:26 PM »
@  Klaus Weasley

would you mind commenting on the highlighted part of brother Mel's comment ? thanks in advance  ;)

Now there are 10 commandments which can be broken down to love of Man and love of God. There is one that says do not bear false witness against thy neighbor. When you accuse a group of people but fail to single out (and prove) who the offender really is what does that say about you?



what does that say about you, Klaus Weasley ?
« Last Edit: Oct 28, 2012 at 03:28 PM by bass_nut »

Offline rascal101

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #865 on: Oct 28, 2012 at 04:48 PM »
What I say about the Catholic Church is true. Haven't you been reading the news?

Like what bass_nut has said, you did not answer the question about you blaming people. Maybe you do not realize you are also accusing me and any member of the Catholic Church. The commandment is very clear "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor".

Can we interpret your silence on this matter as a tacit approval?
« Last Edit: Oct 28, 2012 at 05:02 PM by rascal101 »

Offline Klaus Weasley

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #866 on: Oct 28, 2012 at 06:30 PM »
I thought I've already answered your question. What I said about the Catholic Church is actually TRUE. It's not an accusation but rather a statement of fact. Priests HAVE molested children. Do you deny that fact? If you don't believe me, just look it up online. I'm not accusing any particular bishop or cardinal but the fact is the Church, as an institution, has been complicit in covering up child molesting priest sex scandals all over the world. Why do you think the Church has been paying a lot of money to a lot of victims?

Offline rascal101

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #867 on: Oct 28, 2012 at 07:22 PM »
A fruit bearing tree bears many fruits and not all of them are good. Would the farmer stop selling fruits if his yield is at 75%? What is the bearing of the bad fruits on the good fruit (when these fruits have very good insulation)? Do these fruits make the good fruits bad also? Not all people are good. This is the case of any institution, company or organization in our planet. If the apostles in the presence of Jesus committed sins how much more for us who do not see him? People commit sins. You commit sin. Accept it.

There is a saying that we will be judged by how we judge our fellow human beings. Since you continually bear false witness (by your silent tacit approval), do not complain if people accuse you falsely. Also since it is evident that forgiveness has no meaning for you, do not complain when people do not forgive you.

Lastly, before you accuse make sure you have evidence. As with any court of law make sure it is firsthand evidence. Otherwise it would appear (and it does) that you are just spreading rumors (bearing false witness).
« Last Edit: Oct 28, 2012 at 07:30 PM by rascal101 »

Offline Klaus Weasley

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #868 on: Oct 28, 2012 at 08:14 PM »

Ah, now I know what you mean.

Yes, I know that most priests do not molest children and are perfectly decent human beings overall. I know that the Catholic Church have done good works and there are good people working within it.

But it is still a HUMAN institution and like ANY human institution, it is also FLAWED. It should NOT be above criticism and disagreement. I have a lot of problems with the Catholic Church just like I have a lot of problems with the Philippine government and Filipino society. There are times when I want to say THE HELL WITH IT and leave all of them altogether and become totally agnostic/atheist expat in another country.

Personally, I think the Catholic Church should marry gays, allow artificial contraception, lighten up a bit on abortion and divorce, rethink its position on sexuality in general, allow women to be ordained and allow their priests to get married. Only then I think the Catholic Church can survive through the 21st century. The Philippines is one of few countries the Catholic Church still wields some power and influence which is why they're so stubborn on stuff like the RH Bill and divorce.

Offline rascal101

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #869 on: Oct 29, 2012 at 06:19 AM »
Ah, now I know what you mean.

Yes, I know that most priests do not molest children and are perfectly decent human beings overall. I know that the Catholic Church have done good works and there are good people working within it.

But it is still a HUMAN institution and like ANY human institution, it is also FLAWED. It should NOT be above criticism and disagreement. I have a lot of problems with the Catholic Church just like I have a lot of problems with the Philippine government and Filipino society. There are times when I want to say THE HELL WITH IT and leave all of them altogether and become totally agnostic/atheist expat in another country.

Personally, I think the Catholic Church should marry gays, allow artificial contraception, lighten up a bit on abortion and divorce, rethink its position on sexuality in general, allow women to be ordained and allow their priests to get married. Only then I think the Catholic Church can survive through the 21st century. The Philippines is one of few countries the Catholic Church still wields some power and influence which is why they're so stubborn on stuff like the RH Bill and divorce.


And, why should the Catholic Church listen to you? Per your own logic you do not have any authority.
« Last Edit: Oct 29, 2012 at 06:30 AM by rascal101 »