Topic: The Religion Thread

[Quitacet]

Question:
1. Paano nagiging saint sa RC?
2. bakit sila Moses and yun mga nasa OT hindi naging saint?

At bakit may mga saint na nadedemote? Paano yung mga nanalangin sa kanila for intercession to God?

[Nelson de Leon]

At bakit may mga saint na nadedemote? Paano yung mga nanalangin sa kanila for intercession to God?

Meron ba? Paano nademote?

[Quitacet]

Meron ba? Paano nademote?

http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=36


Maybe my term demotion is not accurate but it's the same banana

[barrister]

Meron ba? Paano nademote?

Meron.  Ang dami nga e, more than forty.
 
Paano na-demote?  By removal from the liturgical calendar due to doubt as to whether they really existed or were mere legends.
 
http://www.stnicholascenter.org/pages/upi/

[Nelson de Leon]

Meron.  Ang dami nga e, more than forty.
Paano na-demote?  By removal from the liturgical calendar due to doubt as to whether they really existed or were mere legends.
http://www.stnicholascenter.org/pages/upi/

Bakit ang ma old testament characters hindi naging saint? Like Moss, David, Elijah etc...?

What makes a saint different from Mose etc?

And, paano ba magind saint?

[dpogs]

Bakit ang ma old testament characters hindi naging saint? Like Moss, David, Elijah etc...?

What makes a saint different from Mose etc?

And, paano ba magind saint?

Sa RC, kailangan may malaki kang nagawa para sa catholic, and performed a miracle (while alive or kahit patay na)...

but for me... a true Christian is a saint.

[devlin_waugh]

Jealous of the PH-MILF Deal, CBCP Proposes Separate State for Catholics

http://sowhatsnews.wordpress.com/2012/10/08/jealous-of-the-ph-milf-deal-cbcp-proposes-separate-state-for-catholics/

[Nelson de Leon]

Jealous of the PH-MILF Deal, CBCP Proposes Separate State for Catholics

http://sowhatsnews.wordpress.com/2012/10/08/jealous-of-the-ph-milf-deal-cbcp-proposes-separate-state-for-catholics/

Below is the proposed Framework Agreement for the Autonomous Region in Catholic Cebu (ARCC):
     A. ESTABLISHMENT OF THE HOLYLAND
The Parties agree that the status quo is unacceptable and that the Autonomous Region in Catholic Cebu (ARCC) shall be established to replace the the entire Cebu province. The ARCC or the Holyland is the new autonomous political entity (NPE)  upon the implementation of this agreement.
The government of the ARCC shall have a Theocratic Monarchy form.
The relationship of the Central Government with the ARCC shall be asymmetric but the Pinoy Pope (see Section C-2) shall have a final say on any matters pertaining to the ARCC.
Spouses and their descendants are classified as Catholics. The freedom of choice of other Indigenous peoples shall be semi-respected or not at all.
The existing Lapu-Lapu shrine shall be demolished on the day of ARCC’s foundation.
   B. BASIC LAW
The Holyland shall be governed by a Basic Law: The Law of the Priests Bible.
The Basic Law shall reflect the Holyland system of life and meet internationally accepted standards of governance except that of the United Nations.
 It shall be formulated by the Catholic Bishops Conference of the Philippines, which is hereby renamed Catholic Bastion for Centralize Peace.
     C. POWERS
The Central Government will have no powers, the ARCC Government shall have its exclusive powers, and there will be concurrent powers shared by the Central Government and the ARCC Government. Very minimal concurrent powers.
The ARCC shall appoint via a papal conclave, their leader who shall be called the Pinoy Pope or the PPope.
The PPope shall have the powers of excommunication that could be sentenced to anyone who the CBCP deems as “satan”.
The PPope shall be the leader of the ARCC until the day he dies.
     D. BASIC RIGHTS
In addition to basic rights already enjoyed, the following rights of all citizens residing in the Holyland bind the legislature, executive and judiciary as directly enforceable law and are guaranteed:
Right to life and procreation.
Right to freedom and expression of religion and the words of the Lord.
Right to privacy of a priest and altar boys.
Right of women to meaningful political participation, and protection from all forms of violence. Except for maternal health.
Right to freedom from religious, ethnic and sectarian harassment; just  as long as you choose Catholism; and
Right to redress of grievances and due process of law, as long as Father’s said so.
Right to smuggle ivory to be made into idols.
Right to object or contradict Catholic teachings are allowed but extradition to the “Unholyland” (rest of the Philippines) shall follow.
Other provisions are said to be added at a later date.
The CBCP has released a press statement concerning their stand on the proposed agreement:
“With a an autonomous region all to ourselves, we are half way there. We shall show the world a state without the much ballyhooed responsible parenthood. A state without abortifacient condoms (sic). A state where a father’s needs are more important than a mother’s welfare. A state where our members are free to worship idols made from elephant tusks without the fear of judgement from the public. A state where our health-expert-priests are free to check our altar boy’s genitals for any form of rashes, without being called a child molester. A state where Catholics can live in the Middles Ages. A state where they can enjoy life to the fullest.”
“Take my hand and we’ll make it – I swear, cause in ARCC, we shall be living on a prayer.”

[barrister]

And, paano ba magind saint?

Under Catholic doctrine, that's called canonization.
 
The procedure involves 5 steps.  The "Devil's Advocate" was removed from the procedure in 1983.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonization#Roman_Catholic_procedure_since_1983
 
 
 

Bakit ang ma old testament characters hindi naging saint? Like Moss, David, Elijah etc...?

What makes a saint different from Mose etc?

Saints din yung nasa Old Testament.  Para masabi mong hindi sila saints under Catholic teaching, kailangan mong magpakita ng Catholic doctrine na direktang sinasabi na hindi sila santo, pero wala kang maipapakitang ganong dokumento.
 
Ganito kasi yon:

Even prior to the establishment of the procedure for Catholic canonization was instituted, the Old Testament patriarchs were already acknowledged by Catholics as saints.  So by the time the procedure for canonization was formalized, those patriarchs did not have to go through the process, because that would have been unnecessary.
 
 

[rusty]

Pope tells new cardinals not to be lured by power

VATICAN CITY (AP) — Pope Benedict XVI has told his six new cardinals to resist the allure of power and instead be like Jesus and focus their work on spreading the Christian faith.

Benedict celebrated a Mass on Sunday in St. Peter's Basilica with the cardinals he formally elevated a day earlier. The six hail from Colombia, India, Lebanon, Nigeria, the Philippines and the U.S. — a broad geographic mix that helps even out the Europe-heavy College of Cardinals who will elect 85-year-old Benedict's successor.

In his homily, Benedict told his new collaborators that Jesus had no political ambitions. He said: "To be like Jesus, then, means not letting ourselves be allured by the worldly logic of power, but bringing into the world the light of truth and God's love."

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/pope-tells-new-cardinals-not-be-lured-power

[SiCkBoY]

Saints din yung nasa Old Testament.  Para masabi mong hindi sila saints under Catholic teaching, kailangan mong magpakita ng Catholic doctrine na direktang sinasabi na hindi sila santo, pero wala kang maipapakitang ganong dokumento.

This doesn't make sense.

[Nelson de Leon]

This doesn't make sense.

I think sir Barrister is referring to saints by Roman Catholics, which is different from other sects.

[SiCkBoY]

I understand that.  Pero what he's saying is the opposite of the norm.  Saints ang mga nasa Old Testament unless proven otherwise. 

[barrister]

I understand that.  Pero what he's saying is the opposite of the norm.  Saints ang mga nasa Old Testament unless proven otherwise.

You're not saying anything different.

Let's divide it into 2 parts.
 
=======================================

Part I:
(a) I said:

Saints din yung nasa Old Testament.   

(b) You said:

Saints ang mga nasa Old Testament...

Part II:
 
(a) I said:

Para masabi mong hindi sila saints under Catholic teaching, kailangan mong magpakita ng Catholic doctrine na direktang sinasabi na hindi sila santo

(b)You said:

... unless proven otherwise. 

I don't see how that can be any clearer.
 
 

[SiCkBoY]

I'll try to make sense of what I'm driving at.  In general, a person is not a saint... unless shown otherwise.  But what you're saying is... a person from the Old Testament is a saint... unless it is shown that he is not.

Am I making sense? In general, we have to prove that someone is a saint. But for the Old Testament people, you're saying that the rule is the opposite. Why is that?

[barrister]

I'll try to make sense of what I'm driving at.  In general, a person is not a saint... unless shown otherwise.

Yes, that is correct, but only as a general rule. 

Under Catholic doctrine, the Catholic Church does not create saints; rather, it merely recognizes a person as a saint.  Generally, a "Saint" is a person officially recognized as such by the Catholic Church by the process of canonization.  Therefore, no canonization, no saint.

Why then is St. Joseph (foster father of Jesus) considered a saint by Catholics when he was never canonized by the Catholic Church?  Because the requirement of canonization is a general rule that admits of exceptions. 

St. Joseph was already widely recognized as a saint centuries before the process of canonization was instituted.  Therefore, because of his status, he is officially a saint without need for formal recognition via canonization.



Concerning the Old Testament saints, a professor of liturgy explains:

Answered by Legionary of Christ Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum university.

Q: Why is it that we never invoke or ask intercession of any of the "holy ones" from the Old Testament in the prayers of the Mass, nor do we have feast days to honor them? I am thinking of those such as Elijah, Hannah, Samuel, Ruth, King David, or Isaiah, to name a few. Though we may refer to them, no feast day appears on the Roman calendar, nor any mention when praying in the Eucharistic prayers to be united with the saints in heaven. — J.K., Portland, Oregon

A: The reason that there are no feast days to Old Testament saints in the Church's universal calendar is probably due to the historical process in which the calendar was formed. At first, only martyrs for Christ were remembered on their anniversaries, and shortly afterward the Blessed Virgin was also honored with feast days.

St. Martin of Tours (died 397) was probably the first non-martyr remembered with a feast. But the tradition has generally been that the saints in the calendar have been heroic examples of the life in Christ.

This does not mean that Old Testament saints were not recognized or that their intercession could not be sought.

The Roman Martyrology, a liturgical book first published in the 1600, collects all of the saints and blessed officially recognized by the Church and organized according to their feast day. Those classified as saints in this book may be celebrated on their feast days, provided that the day is free of any other obligatory celebration.

Most of these saints, who far outnumber those of the general calendar, have no specific Mass formulas. Whenever they are celebrated, the most appropriate formulas are chosen from the common of saints.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur194.htm



 

But what you're saying is... a person from the Old Testament is a saint... unless it is shown that he is not.

It goes without saying that only the leading personalities of the Old Testament are considered saints.  It does not mean that all persons in the Old Testament without exception are saints.

For example, Abraham, a primary figure in the Old Testament, was never canonized by the Catholic Church.  Yet he is recognized by the Catholics as a saint, whose feast day is celebrated on the 9th of October:

http://www.catholic.co.il/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=503%3Afeast-of-saint-abraham-october-9&catid=32%3Afeasts&Itemid=44&lang=en
 

Am I making sense? In general, we have to prove that someone is a saint. But for the Old Testament people, you're saying that the rule is the opposite. Why is that?

Not all of the "Old Testament people," but only the leading personalities of the Old Testament.

Following your view, Moses of the Old Testmant should not be considered a saint, because he was never proved to be a saint, since he was never formally canonized as a saint.  And since no Old Testament personality has ever been canonized, then not a single personality from the Old Testament can be validy considered a saint by the Catholics.

But Catholics recognize Moses as a saint.  He is included in the Roman Martyrology, and therefore included in the list of saints, even if he was never canonized.

Why is he considered a saint even without canonization? 

Very simple.  He was considered a saint long before the process of canonization was instituted centuries later.  Therefore, if he's already recognized as a saint, then canonization would not be necessary.

 

[dpogs]

hmmm... si Paul ang daming tinawag na saints sa new testament.

[rusty]

Cardinal Tagle in Reuters list of potential popes

FRONTRUNNERS FOR NOW

While there are no official candidates, here are "papabili" (potential popes) the most frequently mentioned recently. The list is in alphabetical, not in order of their chances, and will probably change between now and when the conclave is held, most likely in March.

- Joao Braz de Aviz (Brazil, 65) brought fresh air to the Vatican department for religious congregations when he took over in 2011. He supports the preference for the poor in Latin America's liberation theology, but not the excesses of its advocates. Possible drawbacks include his low profile.

- Timothy Dolan, (USA, 62) became the voice of U.S. Catholicism after being named archbishop of New York in 2009. His humour and dynamism have impressed the Vatican, where both are often missing. But cardinals are wary of a "superpower pope" and his back-slapping style may be too American for some.

- Marc Ouellet (Canada, 68) is effectively the Vatican's top staff director as head of the Congregation for Bishops. He once said becoming pope "would be a nightmare." Though well connected within the Curia, the widespread secularism of his native Quebec could work against him.

- Gianfranco Ravasi (Italy, 70) has been Vatican culture minister since 2007 and represents the Church to the worlds of art, science, culture and even to atheists. This profile could hurt him if cardinals decide they need an experienced pastor rather than another professor as pope.

- Leonardo Sandri (Argentina, 69) is a "transatlantic" figure born in Buenos Aires to Italian parents. He held the third-highest Vatican post as its chief of staff in 2000-2007. But he has no pastoral experience and his job overseeing eastern churches is not a power position in Rome.

- Odilo Pedro Scherer (Brazilia, 63) ranks as Latin America's strongest candidate. Archbishop of Sao Paolo, largest diocese in the largest Catholic country, he is conservative in his country but would rank as a moderate elsewhere. The rapid growth of Protestant churches in Brazil could count against him.

- Christoph Schoenborn (Austria, 67) is a former student of Pope Benedict with a pastoral touch the pontiff lacks. The Vienna archbishop has ranked as papal material since editing the Church catechism in the 1990s. But some cautious reform stands and strong dissent by some Austrian priests could hurt him.

- Angelo Scola (Italy, 71) is archbishop of Milan, a springboard to the papacy, and is many Italians' bet to win. An expert on bioethics, he also knows Islam as head of a foundation to promote Muslim-Christian understanding. His dense oratory could put off cardinals seeking a charismatic communicator.

- Luis Tagle (Philippines, 55) has a charisma often compared to that of the late Pope John Paul. He is also close to Pope Benedict after working with him at the International Theological Commission. While he has many fans, he only became a cardinal in 2012 and conclaves are wary of young candidates.

- Peter Turkson (Ghana, 64) is the top African candidate. Head of the Vatican justice and peace bureau, he is spokesman for the Church's social conscience and backs world financial reform. He showed a video criticising Muslims at a recent Vatican synod, raising doubts about how he sees Islam. (Additional reporting by Philip Pullella; Editing by Giles Elgood)

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/nation/02/11/13/cardinal-tagle-reuters-list-potential-popes

[oweidah]

what if tagle becomes pope?






Then assassinated or suddenlt die inside the vatican?

[JT]

what if tagle becomes pope?

He wont. He doesnt have a strong influence in Europe. His name is there simply to stir up the Filipinos because more and more pinoy are departing from this religion.

[Nelson de Leon]

i have this gut feel that Cardinal Tagle  will end up being named the next Pope......

I predicted a Pinoy presidency in 2010, a CJ Coroa ouster in 2012...hmmm.....a few hours or a day from now we will all know...

Magpapa-pansit ka kapag hindi naging Pope si Cardinal Tagle?   

[bumblebee]

The only requirement to be a pope is that you are a baptized male. Pano kung me asawa na yung napili?

[barrister]

The only requirement to be a pope is that you are a baptized male. Pano kung me asawa na yung napili?

OK lang.  Hindi naman bawal yon.
 
If he is not a priest, he takes a vow of chastity, is ordained as a priest, is consecrated as a bishop, then gets elected as pope.
 
Meron naman talagang Catholic priest na may asawa:

A Cohort of Married Roman Catholic Priests, and More Are on the Way
By MARK OPPENHEIMER
Published: January 6, 2012
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/07/us/married-roman-catholic-priests-are-testing-a-tradition.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
 

[luis]

noong elementary pa ko, (not so long ago ha ha ha) na-itanong din "pwede ba mag-pari yung may-asawa?"

ang sagot ng Christian Living teacher "pwede pero maraming conditiones, halimbawa kailangan kayang buhayin ni misis yung pamilya"... mahaba yung compliance checklist...

just sharing.

[JT]

My guess is that the next pope is an Italian and this profile fits:
- Angelo Scola (Italy, 71) is archbishop of Milan, a springboard to the papacy, and is many Italians' bet to win. An expert on bioethics, he also knows Islam as head of a foundation to promote Muslim-Christian understanding. His dense oratory could put off cardinals seeking a charismatic communicator.

Italian to revive the roman empire, will unite Europe as well as all religion into Ecumenism.


 

[rusty]

Argentina's Bergoglio is 1st non-European pope
http://www.rappler.com/world/new-pope/23754-argentina-s-bergoglio-is-the-new-pope

[ABCmotorparts]

Pope Francis,....

We have a new pope,..! 

[Verbl Kint]

Pope Francis,....

We have a new pope,..! 

Nothing speaks more about reform in the Catholic Church than electing a Jesuit as pope.

[Verbl Kint]

liberation theology?

Not really.  Bishop Bergoglio was supposedly against it but he is definitely pro-poor.  Choosing the iconic name of Francis speaks volumes about his sincere belief in austerity.

[Philjonc]

i have this gut feel that Cardinal Tagle  will end up being named the next Pope......

I predicted a Pinoy presidency in 2010, a CJ Coroa ouster in 2012...hmmm.....a few hours or a day from now we will all know...

pano kung katulad nyan hindi Pinoy ang nakuhang bagong Pope anong ibig sabihin?