Topic: The Religion Thread

[JT]

Pope Francis,....

We have a new pope,..! 

Oh I was wrong then. Its an Argentinian Pope.

[Klaus Weasley]

Nothing speaks more about reform in the Catholic Church than electing a Jesuit as pope.

He's not one of THOSE types of Jesuits though.

[oweidah]

liberation theology?

Wawawee !  christianizdd marxism? Burn francis burn hehe

[oweidah]

next time, text votes na lang!

[oweidah]

action please santo papi kiko!

sell, divest, give donate the church's riches

http://ph.news.yahoo.com/pope-says-wants-poor-church-church-poor-104432278.html

[bumblebee]

Real face of Jesus?

[thebat]

Share ko lang to dito:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysBJ5G4m67s

[Klaus Weasley]

This article about a political candidate actually got me thinking. A lot of Pinoys especially those who are lower-middle-class to poor, seem to believe that being religious goes hand in hand with being a person of good moral character and a responsible leader. A notion which I disagree with. One only has to look at the picture of Erap going to Mass to know this.

Do you guys really think that being religious automatically means you're a good person with morals and family values?

[Nelson de Leon]

This article about a political candidate actually got me thinking. A lot of Pinoys especially those who are lower-middle-class to poor, seem to believe that being religious goes hand in hand with being a person of good moral character and a responsible leader. A notion which I disagree with. One only has to look at the picture of Erap going to Mass to know this.

Do you guys really think that being religious automatically means you're a good person with morals and family values?

Depends on how you define religious...

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religious

Definition of RELIGIOUS

1
: relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity <a religious person> <religious attitudes>
2
: of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances <joined a religious order>

If this is your definition of religious, depende sa doctrine ng religion. If the religion teaches/supports this:

with being a person of good moral character and a responsible leader.
 with morals and family values?

Then the person is religious.

Am i making sense...  A lot of people define being religious na palaging nagsisimba.

[Klaus Weasley]

So you think an atheist or agnostic or someone who does not go to church or follow any particular religion CANNOT have moral values?

[Nelson de Leon]

So you think an atheist or agnostic or someone who does not go to church or follow any particular religion CANNOT have moral values?

Nope. He can have moral values. Fishy question.  It's his moral values naman. Not mine.  Di ba, morality is subjective?

[barrister]

Do you guys really think that being religious automatically means you're a good person with morals and family values?

No.  In my experience, being religious or not has nothing to do with it.

May religious na mabuti, may religious na walanghiya rin naman.  May non-religious na mabuti, may non-religious na masama.

The religious types are the ones who catch us off guard because we have a natural tendency to assume that the religious are good people.   

In my case, I'm more cautious when dealing with the religious types.  Marami na akong nakitang estafador na banal na aso na, santong kabayo pa ...     

[rexFi]

People always do the contrary to what they say/or believe all the time (just like me, I think I already said I won't post here anymore )

BUT here's a thread that I hoped show that Morals are not all subjective. E.g. see law of non-contradiction.

I firmly believe Evangelical Christianity IS where Morality is defined the Best. Though even the "subjective" things are defined or left for us to decide. (see Romans 14).

So you think an atheist or agnostic or someone who does not go to church or follow any particular religion CANNOT have moral values?

The question for me is "Where did it come from?"

My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I gotten this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? - CS Lewis, Mere Christianity

[RU9]

Pope Francis rocked some religious and atheist minds today when he declared that everyone was redeemed through Jesus, including atheists.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html?utm_hp_ref=religion

[leomarley]

Pope Francis rocked some religious and atheist minds today when he declared that everyone was redeemed through Jesus, including atheists.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html?utm_hp_ref=religion

and how did he know this? assuming that there is a god?

[Nelson de Leon]

People always do the contrary to what they say/or believe all the time (just like me, I think I already said I won't post here anymore )

BUT here's a thread that I hoped show that Morals are not all subjective. E.g. see law of non-contradiction.

I firmly believe Evangelical Christianity IS where Morality is defined the Best. Though even the "subjective" things are defined or left for us to decide. (see Romans 14).

The question for me is "Where did it come from?"

My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I gotten this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? - CS Lewis, Mere Christianity

Nice read and insights. Thank you so much.

[rexFi]

^ Lets thank CS Lewis.

and how did he know this? assuming that there is a god?

Based on the (misinterpretation?) of the Historical Death of Jesus of Nazareth in relation to the Historical Atonement Sacrifices of the old Jewish people I guess sir.

[Nelson de Leon]

^ Lets thank CS Lewis.

Based on the (misinterpretation?) of the Historical Death of Jesus of Nazareth in relation to the Historical Atonement Sacrifices of the old Jewish people I guess sir.

Yun ba yun sacrifice ng best crop and livestock?

[tagilid]

sir tanong lang is there such thing as kaluluwa or soul? meron n b nagpatunay n may kaluluwa ang bawat tao?

[ninjababez®]

sir tanong lang is there such thing as kaluluwa or soul? meron n b nagpatunay n may kaluluwa ang bawat tao?

yes, if you believe in god

[tagilid]

yes, if you believe in god

sir youve got pm..

[rexFi]

sir tanong lang is there such thing as kaluluwa or soul? meron n b nagpatunay n may kaluluwa ang bawat tao?

Historical lang kasi, since Jesus is real then it follows for example. If kung sa "scientific method" then syempre impossible for now. Di nman lahat ng Truth mkukuha ng Science.

For me lang , Logic ang first then History then Science. Then we get the logical conclusion.

Yun ba yun sacrifice ng best crop and livestock?

 Madami sir eh, e.g. John 3:16 in relation sa Leviticus and Hebrews chapter.

*hirap magtype sa mini tablet :/

[leomarley]

Historical lang kasi, since Jesus is real then it follows for example. If kung sa "scientific method" then syempre impossible for now. Di nman lahat ng Truth mkukuha ng Science.

For me lang , Logic ang first then History then Science. Then we get the logical conclusion.
 

huh? medyo magulo ata yung sinabi mo sir. Science is based on logic so that is a null argument. regarding Jesus, majority of scholars belive he existed but the same scholars question or have little agreement on his divinity. so just because Jesus existed doesn't mean necessarily mean that there is a soul.

[CMac]

Fear can sometimes be the determinant of good action. Who/What do atheists fear? Are we saying that they are innately doing good out of habit or are simply guided by the knowledge they've obtained from grade school textbooks on morals and values? I see religion as a discipline much like how the law is implemented in a state. Without fear of consequence, what then drives an atheists to do more good than bad?

Some of the atheists I know have gone through personal tragedies. A common picture for a believer to convert. I totally understand their predicament. But for others who have made the transition just because who knows why, keep it to yourself. Di ba? Alam mo na pala yung sagot sa buhay eh. Let others discover what you've discovered on their own. You guys are way ahead of us in terms on enlightenment. Good for you, but most of us don't care.

[leomarley]

But for others who have made the transition just because who knows why, keep it to yourself. Di ba? Alam mo na pala yung sagot sa buhay eh. Let others discover what you've discovered on their own. You guys are way ahead of us in terms on enlightenment. Good for you, but most of us don't care.

so basically what you're saying is for those atheists who didn't have the same enlightenment doesn't have the right to talk about what they believe or don't believe? edi sabihin mo rin yan dun sa mga pari na wag sila mangaral sa homily at bahala na lang mga tao maka-discover ng sariling enlightenment. sabihin mo na din dun sa mga Missionaries in Africa or wherever na do not spread the word of the lord.

[rexFi]

huh? medyo magulo ata yung sinabi mo sir. Science is based on logic so that is a null argument. regarding Jesus, majority of scholars belive he existed but the same scholars question or have little agreement on his divinity. so just because Jesus existed doesn't mean necessarily mean that there is a soul.

What I basically said was Science should be under Logic. Its not above it. Its methods should be logically sound in proving/or disproving things. One should be "testing the tests".

So far we cannot "test" the nature of the soul therefor its not the Tool to find out if it exists or not. We can therefore use Historical data and interpret it. Then have the only logical conclusion.

regarding Jesus, majority of scholars belive he existed but the same scholars question or have little agreement on his divinity. so just because Jesus existed doesn't mean necessarily mean that there is a soul.

Jesus' divinity is also questioned in every religion (e.g. INC he's just a man but should be worshiped).

I also didn't get you here, Is your conclusion a soul do not exist because there are discussions/disagreements about Jesus divinity?

Anyway Jesus existing is just one example, there is also about God existing due to a number of "proofs" e.g. The Creation, (i.e can something come out from absolutely nothing?) The Moral Arguments (we discussed some of this in the Emphaty thread) etc.

Maraming ididiscuss about that na I have no time unfortunately.

Basically its God exists therefore the Soul exists. (then loop sa taas, about testing its/the soul's) existence via Science.)

And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in
- Jesus in Matthew 10:28

biglang nanakot eh noh?

Fear can sometimes be the determinant of good action. Who/What do atheists fear? Are we saying that they are innately doing good out of habit or are simply guided by the knowledge they've obtained from grade school textbooks on morals and values? I see religion as a discipline much like how the law is implemented in a state. Without fear of consequence, what then drives an atheists to do more good than bad?

Fear of consequences can be put out in the equation naman, Morality is also founded in Logic or logically sound, which is mostly I believe there is "Someone" who put things into place so doing good works makes sense, and the answer to "What is good?" also makes sense.

Some of the atheists I know have gone through personal tragedies. A common picture for a believer to convert. I totally understand their predicament. But for others who have made the transition just because who knows why, keep it to yourself. Di ba? Alam mo na pala yung sagot sa buhay eh. Let others discover what you've discovered on their own. You guys are way ahead of us in terms on enlightenment. Good for you, but most of us don't care.

I basically agree with leomarley on this one. Dapat pwede lahat siguro hehe.

[CMac]

There are those that believe and others who attack that belief. I'm referring to the latter who have nothing to lose in a religious argument.

[leomarley]

There are those that believe and others who attack that belief. I'm referring to the latter who have nothing to lose in a religious argument.

that's what atheists do. that's what they preach. of course they will preach that there is no god because that's what they believe in or don't believe. also a correction, they do not attack. they're merely trying to open up people's minds.

[rexFi]

that's what atheists do. that's what they preach. of course they will preach that there is no god because that's what they believe in or don't believe. also a correction, they do not attack. they're merely trying to open up people's minds.

Same with us. Pagnagdedebate, di kagad "attack" yon or shoving the belief to others troats(sp? )

There are those that believe and others who attack that belief. I'm referring to the latter who have nothing to lose in a religious argument.

We also do not have something to lose, its the other who has something to gain.

Happy Sunday.

[leomarley]

Pope Francis rocked some religious and atheist minds today when he declared that everyone was redeemed through Jesus, including atheists.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html?utm_hp_ref=religion

LOLOLOL sila mismo di magkasundo

Vatican corrects Pope: Atheists are still going to hell

After Pope Francis told the world even atheists can go to heaven, the Vatican issued a correction: Atheists are still going to hell.

The Vatican issued an “explanatory note on the meaning of “salvation,” on Thursday, May 23, after media reports circulated indicating that Pope Francis” promised heaven for everyone engaged in good works, including atheists.

In response to the media attention, the Rev. Thomas Rosica, a Vatican spokesman, said that people who know about the Catholic church “cannot be saved” if they “refuse to enter her or remain in her.”

(Translation: Atheists are going to Hell if they don’t accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour.)

Rosica also said that Francis had “no intention of provoking a theological debate on the nature of salvation,” during his homily on Wednesday.

The current theological confusion began after the leader of the world's 1.2 billion Roman Catholics made comments during the homily of his morning Mass on Wednesday, May 22, indicating that atheists would enjoy the fruits of eternal salvation if they were good people. Francis said:

The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!

We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.

http://www.examiner.com/article/vatican-corrects-pope-atheists-are-still-going-to-hell