Topic: The Religion Thread

[barrister]

Sir, i am so happy for you. Congrats for finding the Word of God. Keep it up. It is a start.


Here is from the book of Luke
Luke 15:1-7  New International Version (NIV)The Parable of the Lost Sheep

Salamat sir.
 
Being convinced of the truth of the bible was a long process for me.  Hindi yung bigla na parang tinamaan ng kidlat galing sa langit.
 
 

Would just like to know how you were convinced since you were an atheist before, if it's ok to ask?

Sure, I'll be glad to tell you about it.
 
As an atheist, I was convinced that the evolution theory was correct.  After I began to doubt the evolution theory and ultimately concluded that it was founded on highly speculative presumptions, I started studying the bible.
 
At first, the bible seemed to be full of illogical concepts and contradictions.  But after decades of study, I found that the concepts are in fact very logical and the seeming contradictions can be easily reconciled.       

[barrister]

1.
Sir, based on the link you provided, from the latin vulgate translation, it was translated to greek, then duon nadagdag?

It is also true na madaming addition to the bible from hebrew. Ang alam ko, this is because most of the original manuscripts were intentionally burnt or lost. I dunno who ordered the burning and if it's true. However, since super daming translations and copies that were already out, these copies/translations were collected and dun kinuha yun books. Any "spurious" addition made within the bible should not affect the idea, concept or message of the bible.

Paano nilang nasabi na dinagdag?  Yan ang starting point dapat.
 
Ang process niyan, the original is the first manuscript written by the author.  Then scribes made other manuscripts by way of handwritten copies.  The original language for the Old Testment is Hebrew; for the New Testament, Greek and Aramaic.  The existing manuscripts are all copies.  None of the original manuscripts exist, because they were all lost.
 
Magkakaroon ka ng duda sa authenticity pag may lumilitaw na addition sa mas bagong edition.  Kasi mas reliable yung mas luma.  Therefore, it is a process of comparison with all available copies, with greater reliability being placed on older copies.  In addition, the comparison should take into consideration its consistency with other parts of the bible.  Pag biglang naiba ang consistency, malamang fake yon.
 
Ang sabi sa article, unang lumitaw ang Johannine Comma on only 4 of the medieval manuscripts. Latin manuscript pa, meaning translated na from the original Greek.  Nang nagkaroon ng Latin Vulgate manuscripts, madalas nang incorporated ang additon na yon.
 
From the Latin Vulgate, nakopya yung mali sa later Greek manuscripts and printed editions.  Tuloy-tuloy sa mas bagong printed editions, kasama na ang Johannine Comma.
 
Today, if you are serious about bible study, you will not be misled.  The more reliable printed bible versions indicate the addition.
 
The NIV is one of the most reliable modern versions.  Look at 1 John 5:7-8 in NIV: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+5&version=NIV
 
Note that the addition was removed.  Now, click on footnote "a" under verse 8, and read the annotation. 

[barrister]

2.
Before we talk about the Trinitarian doctrine, atty., pwede ba paki-share yun Trinitarian doctrine and specifically the definition of co-equal?

I can't give you an accurate description of the Trinitarian doctrine because it is not biblical, and diferent sects have different and confusing definitions.  It is just a human invention that is not found in the bible.
 
Therefore, pag inexplain ko yon, ang basis ko ay hindi bible, kundi yun lang mga iba-ibang variations ng explanation ng iba-ibang sekta.
 
Yung co-equal, iba-iba rin ang explanation.  In Catholic doctrine, co-equal means they are all alike, eternal and omnipotent.
 
Omnipotent means all-powerful.  A being cannot be omnipotent if there is someone more powerful than him.  Christ said the Father is greater than Him.  If there is someone greater than Christ, then Christ cannot be all-powerful.  If one is omnipotent and the other is not, then they are not co-equal.
 
Very simple logic.  Madaling intindihin if you have an open mind.  Mahihirapan ka lang intindihin pag sarado na ang isip sa doktrinang kinagisnan.
 
In the bible, the Son had a beginning, because he was begotten by the Father.  Begotten means to be born of, or to be brought forth.  That's why the bible says:
 
7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. (Psalms 2:7)
 
Who is speaking and who is being spoken to?  It's the Father speaking to the Son, as quoted and explained by other verses as follows:
 
³³ God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.  (Acts 13:33)
 
⁵ For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? (Heb. 1:5)
 
The Father is eternal, because He had no beginning. But the Son had a beginning, therefore the Son is not eternal. Therefore, if one is eternal and the other is not, then they are not co-equal.
 
Sabi ni sir dpogs, sabi lang ni Jesus na the Father is greater than Him, kasi noong panahong yon, nasa katawang tao pa lang si Jesus.
 
That is not correct. The Father has always been and will always be greater than the Son. Sa katunayan, in the future, after the end times, Christ, who no longer has human form, will still be below the Father and not co-equal to Him:
 
²⁸ And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor. 15:28)

[barrister]

4.
In Acts 2:23

23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[a] put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

Hindi kaya mag-contradict yun?

Walang contradiction yon, kasi magkaibang topic.
 
God's "deliberate plan" is the plan of salvation.  Ano yung plano?  The price of salvation is death.  Someone without sin should die for the forgiveness of our sins.  Why send His Son?  Because the Son is the only one without sin, and therefore the only one qualified.  Why did the Son have to come here in human form?  Because the Son had to die, and He cannot die if he did not have a human body; thus only the physical body died (Jesus), and not the Christ.
 
The "foreknowledge" is referring to the Father's plan of salvation that was conceived in the past, then later implemented in the future. It is not referring to God's foreknowledge about how a particular person will decide using his own free will even before that person makes his decision.
 
At the time God formulated the plan, He already knew about the wickedness of man, which is why it was already obvious to Him that the one He would send would be killed by men.
 
Madali lang namang malaman na papatayin Siya.  All Jesus had to do was claim that he is God, siguradong pagpaplanuhan nang patayin na yon ng mga Hudyo.   
 
Example:
 
⁵⁶ Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
 
⁵⁷ Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
 
⁵⁸ Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
 
⁵⁹ Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.  (Jn. 8:56-59)
 
Jesus is saying that He existed even before Abraham was born, and referred to Himself as "I am," implying that He is also God.  That's all it took for the Jews to want to stone Him to death for the crime of blasphemy. 
 
But Jesus hid himself.  Bakit nagtago si Jesus?  Duwag ba Siya?  Hindi.  Kailangang magtago Siya kasi kung hindi, doon pa lang, patay na agad Siya, e hindi Siya puwedeng mamatay agad, kasi bagong umpisa pa lang ang ministry Niya.  Kailangang lumaganap muna ang ministry Niya for around 3 years bago Siya mamatay.
 
Therefore, kung kailan gusto ng Diyos na mamatay si Jesus, madali lang yon, kahit hindi magkaroon ng manipulation ng human free will.  Kaya nga sa trial ni Jesus, derecho na Niyang sinabi na Diyos Siya, kasi panahon na Niyang mamatay, at alam Niya na pag derecho Niyang sinabi yon sa harap mismo ng High Priest, siguradong death penalty na Siya:
   
⁶³ But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
 
⁶⁴ Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

⁶⁵ Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
 
⁶⁶ What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death. (Mt. 26:63-66)
 
 


 
 

Or, hindi kaya during the genesis, God chose not to use His omniscience over Adam & Eve since they were His precious creations to test the limits of man's free will? On the other hand, magiging circular naman kung sasabihin ko na God already knows the limits of man's free will, why test it?

Yes, it's possible that God is omniscient but decided not to use His omniscience because He did not want to disrupt man's free will.  But that is a possibility that is highly speculative and has no basis in the bible. 
 
All we are shown in the bible is that God did not know beforehand what Adam would decide to do, just as He did not know beforehand what Abraham would decide to do.
 
The discipline in studying the bible is to resist interjecting our own speculations.  The information in the bible is complete, but it is only complete for purposes of our salvation; it is not complete if we add other purposes to the mix.  If it is not in the bible, it means that area of knowledge is unnecessary for purposes of our salvation.

[shrek7]

Sorry if I misunderstood.

I normally don't explain to those who are not interested. 

In your case, I thought you had a closed mind.  It turns out hindi naman pala.  My mistake.
 

======================================
 
You're talking about  1 John 5:7?

That verse is the one that is most frequently cited by those who believe in the Trinitarian doctrine. 

There are 2 reasons why that verse does not prove the Trinity:

1.  The majority view among bible scholars is that 1 John 5:7 is a fake addition, called an "interpolation."

Bible scholars call it the "Johannine Comma." http://www.bible-researcher.com/comma.html

2.  Assuming that the Johannine Comma is authentic, the phrase "these three are one" does not automatically point to the Trinitarian doctrine.  It only means that they are "united." 

That is why the bible says husband and wife become "one flesh" (Eph. 5:31) even if they are literally separate and distinct.  It means they are spiritually "one" or spiritually "united."   

sorry for the late reply, thank you for the explanation!

[Nelson de Leon]

I can't give you an accurate description of the Trinitarian doctrine because it is not biblical, and diferent sects have different and confusing definitions.  It is just a human invention that is not found in the bible.
 
Therefore, pag inexplain ko yon, ang basis ko ay hindi bible, kundi yun lang mga iba-ibang variations ng explanation ng iba-ibang sekta.
 
Yung co-equal, iba-iba rin ang explanation.  In Catholic doctrine, co-equal means they are all alike, eternal and omnipotent.

I agree with you. Medjo magulo nga talaga ang trinitarian doctrine. I don't want to get into that.

In the bible, the Son had a beginning, because he was begotten by the Father.  Begotten means to be born of, or to be brought forth.  That's why the bible says:
 
7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. (Psalms 2:7)
 
Who is speaking and who is being spoken to?  It's the Father speaking to the Son, as quoted and explained by other verses as follows:
 
³³ God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.  (Acts 13:33)
 
⁵ For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? (Heb. 1:5)
 
The Father is eternal, because He had no beginning. But the Son had a beginning, therefore the Son is not eternal. Therefore, if one is eternal and the other is not, then they are not co-equal.
 
Sabi ni sir dpogs, sabi lang ni Jesus na the Father is greater than Him, kasi noong panahong yon, nasa katawang tao pa lang si Jesus.
 
That is not correct. The Father has always been and will always be greater than the Son. Sa katunayan, in the future, after the end times, Christ, who no longer has human form, will still be below the Father and not co-equal to Him:
 
²⁸ And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor. 15:28)

Begotten in it's context alone would mean to be born of. But let's look at the bible's begotten in greek and it's context. The word used was monogenēs.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3439&t=KJV

The word was also used in Hebrew 11:17

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Other than being the physical father of Isaac, it was also isaac who inherited the promise of God to Abraham. Abraham had 2 sons but it Isaac who is begotten, monogenes. So in it's greek form, it means the person who inherit, who in relation to the parents.

The concept of time started only after the conception of the world and man.

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So even before the world was created, the Word was already present. And the Word was made flesh in Jesus after the world was created. The Son, emanates from the Father. Hindi ka naman pwedeng tawaging father kung wala kang anak.

Re powers of the Son and the Father, i can see your concept and it is correct. In Phil 2, it is said:

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Sorry can medjo kinda magulo ang explanation ko. Hindi ko ma-condense ang mga binasa ko. hehe! But i'm sure bro atty. Barrister can get the hang of it.

[barrister]

Begotten in it's context alone would mean to be born of. But let's look at the bible's begotten in greek and it's context. The word used was monogenēs.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3439&t=KJV

 
No, "monogenes" does not simply mean "begotten." Monogenes means the "only begotten."
 
Pag sinabi mong "begotten" lang, "genēs" (genos) lang yon --- nasaan na yung "mono"?  Alam mo na yung meaning ng "mono" sa Greek --- isa lang.  Kaya nga pag one channel lang, mono; pag sobrang daming channel, Atmos (joke  ).
 
Tama ang reference mo sir.  According to Strong's Numbers, "monogenes" means "single of its kind, only."  It means it is unique, or the only one.
 
Men can be called sons of God.  Angels can also be called sons of God.  But not "the only begotten Son of God," since Christ is the only one who can be called the only begotten.
 
Additional note:
 
Most English versions render John 1:18 as the only begotten Son.  The correct translation should be the "only begotten God" (monogenes Theos).
 
See the Greek interlinear for John 1:18: http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1.htm

[barrister]

 

The concept of time started only after the conception of the world and man.
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
So even before the world was created, the Word was already present. And the Word was made flesh in Jesus after the world was created. The Son, emanates from the Father. Hindi ka naman pwedeng tawaging father kung wala kang anak.

 
First of all, I want to make sure that I am clear about this issue --- the Son existed before he became flesh. 
 
Let's be clear about that point, because I suspect that you might be thinking that I believe the Son only appeared when He was born of Mary.  That's the belief of the Unitarians, but I disagree with them. 
 
The Unitarians don't believe in the Trinity, pareho kami sa aspect na yon.  But they also believe that the Son started existing only when he was born of the flesh, which is contrary to the very basic teachings of the bible.
 
In my case, I believe the Son existed from the very beginning.  That's why John 1:1 says, "In the beginning was the Word."  That means the Son existed before the creation of the angels, or of the universe, or of the world.
 
Hindi puwedeng nauna pa ang mga anghel sa Anak.  Otherwise, sana sinabing in the beginning were the angels, hindi in the beginning was the Word.
 
Hindi rin sinabing in the beginning was the Father, kasi the Father, being eternal, had no beginning.  But the Son had a beginning because He was begotten by the Father. 
 
When was the Son begotten by the Father?  In the beginning.  Kaya nga in the beginning was the Word. 
 
Before the beginning, nandoon na yung Father, pero wala pa yung Son.  In the beginning, the Son was begotten by the Father.  Later, the Son "was made flesh and dwelt among us."     

[barrister]

 

Re powers of the Son and the Father, i can see your concept and it is correct. In Phil 2, it is said:
 
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
 
Sorry can medjo kinda magulo ang explanation ko. Hindi ko ma-condense ang mga binasa ko. hehe! But i'm sure bro atty. Barrister can get the hang of it.

Tama rin, pero in essence, ibang topic talaga ang pinag-uusapan sa verses na yan sir.
 
Ang topic diyan, it answers this question --- Is the Son God or man?
 
The NIV renders it this way:
 
⁵ In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
 
⁶ Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; ⁷ rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. ⁸ And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross!
 
According to Catholic doctrine, Christ has a dual nature: He is both fully God and fully man.  Pero mali din yon.
 
The verses explain that the Son is God.  Ang sabi, He is God in His very nature.  E di Diyos nga. 
 
Pero nagkatawang-tao daw Siya.  E di hindi nga tao, kasi nagkatawang-tao lang.  Kung ikaw ay tao, hindi ka magkakatawang-tao, kasi tao ka na nga talaga.  Magkakatawang-tao ka lang kung hindi ka talaga tao.
 
That's why the verses say He was only made in human likeness, and that he was only "in appearance as a man" when He was born of Mary as a man.
 
Ang sabi, the son did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage.  The implication is that the Son is equal to the Father. 
 
Akala ko ba the Father is greater than the Son, therefore they are not equal?  Does that verse disprove my view?  No.
 
Ang topic kasi, ang Anak ba ay Diyos o tao.  Pag sinabing they are equal, it only means the Son is God, just as the Father is God.  They are equal in the sense that they are both Gods.
 
Parang ganito:
 
St. Paul is greater than you.  Yet you are equal in the sense that you are both humans.
 
Kung anghel si St. Paul, you and St. Paul are not equal in nature, because man is lower than the angels (Ps. 8:5, quoted in Heb. 2:7).  Pero pareho kayong tao ni St. Paul, therefore you and St. Paul are equal in nature.  Yet St. Paul is greater than you because he was an apostle who taught the word of God to the Gentiles.   
 
Ganon din ang sinasabi sa verses.  The Father is greater than the Son, because the Father is Almighty, the Son is not.  But they are equal in the sense that they are both Gods in nature.
 
That's why in the bible, the term "Almighty" is used only in reference to the Father.  In reference to the Son, He is called "Mighty God" (Isaiah 9:6), but not "Almighty God," since only the Father can be called "Almighty."  Katunayan lang yan na the Father is omnipotent, but the Son is not.
 

[newbie pa rin]

@barrister, i read a lot of your input in this thread. Curiosity got me and wanted to know what is the way of salvation that you believe in?

[Nelson de Leon]

 
Tama rin, pero in essence, ibang topic talaga ang pinag-uusapan sa verses na yan sir.
 
Ang topic diyan, it answers this question --- Is the Son God or man?
 
The NIV renders it this way:
 
⁵ In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
 
⁶ Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; ⁷ rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. ⁸ And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross!
 
According to Catholic doctrine, Christ has a dual nature: He is both Fully God and fully man.  Pero mali din yon.
 
The verses explain that the Son is God.  Ang sabi, He is God in His very nature.  E di Diyos nga. 
 
Pero nagkatawang-tao daw Siya.  E di hindi nga tao, kasi nagkatawang-tao lang.  Kung ikaw ay tao, hindi ka magkatawang-tao, kasi tao ka na nga talaga.  Magkakatawang-tao ka lang kung hindi ka talaga tao.
 
That's why the verses say He was only made in human likeness, and that he was only "in appearance as a man" when He was born of Mary as a man.
 
Ang sabi, the son did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage.  The implication is that the Son is equal to the Father. 
 
Akala ko ba the Father is greater than the Son, therefore they are not equal?  Does that verse disprove my view?  No.
 
Ang topic kasi, ang Anak ba ay Diyos o tao.  Pag sinabing they are equal, it only means the Son is God, just as the Father is God.  They are equal in the sense that they are both Gods.
 
Parang ganito:
 
St. Paul is greater than you.  Yet you are equal in the sense that you are both humans.
 
Kung anghel si St. Paul, you and St. Paul are not equal in nature, because man is lower than the angels (Ps. 8:5, quoted in Heb. 2:7).  Pero pareho kayong tao ni St. Paul, therefore you and St. Paul are equal in nature.  Yet St. Paul is greater that you because he was an apostle who taught the word of God to the Gentiles.   
 
Ganon din ang sinasabi sa verses.  The Father is greater than the Son, because the Father is Almighty, the Son is not.  But they are equal in the sense that they are both Gods in nature.

Agreed. Ang dating naman sa akin nung verses na yun, it proves your point na the Son maybe less equal to the Father but the powers of Jesus should not be prioritized sa thinking natin because since the three, Father, Son & Holy Spirit are One and they are equal in nature as God. because God so loves us, again that through His Son, also a God, gave importance to our salvation that Jesus humbled Himself by being a man, and died for our sins.

[barrister]

Tama yan, kapatid.  We should not lose sight of what's really important. 

[barrister]

@barrister, i read a lot of your input in this thread. Curiosity got me and wanted to know what is the way of salvation that you believe in?

The way of salvation is very simple.  It's already stated in the bible.

Jesus said He is the way, the truth and the life.   If Jesus is the way, all you have to do is walk in His way, and you achieve salvation.

What does walking in His way mean?  It means you follow Jesus' commandments.

The first problem is knowing what those commandments are, because you can't obey something that you are not aware of.  (Hint --- it's not the 10 commandments.)

Don't believe the slogan that all you have to do is accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, and you're supposedly instantly saved.  That's not biblical. 

In fact, there's no such phrase as "personal Lord and Savior" in the bible.  That catchphrase was made famous by American born-again televangelists, but it's not biblical.

[dpogs]

what if right after we failed to follow that commandment bilga tayong namatay... ? no salvation since they did not follow Jesus commandment?



no one can follow God's/Jesus' commandment...

if kung meron man... then Jesus sacrifice on the cross will be in vain kasi all we need to do is follow the commandment... and if salvation is through good works then all humanity have no chance... tsaka maraming magiging mayabang na tao kasi all they need to do is follow God's commandment.

we cannot achieve salvation... "salvation" is not something to be achieved... as far as i know "achieve" is something you attain by your own effort...

as for me... salvation is a gift, a gift from God... whether you're worthy or not ito ay libreng ibibigay sa iyo nang walang kabayaran...

Eph. 2:8-9 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What Jesus did on the cross is enough... Jesus said salvation is complete... hindi na natin kailangang dagdagan na kung ano man including good works.

"good works" is just a manifestation ng isang taong nakatanggap ng tunay na salvation

"good works" is not a requirement for salvation (kasi kapag ka ganoon... lalo lang ipapamukha sa atin ng mga religioius people na sila lang ang may karapatan pumunta ng langint... tayong marmaing kasalanan walang pag-asang makpunta)

What does walking in His way mean?  It means you follow Jesus' commandments.

The first problem is knowing what those commandments are, because you can't obey something that you are not aware of.  (Hint --- it's not the 10 commandments.)

this statement ay puwedeng abusuhin ng mga false church leaders...

this is the main tools of false religion... they are using this statement to control their members... to manipulate their members...

"ang sabi sa bibiliya... kailangan niyong magbigay ng ikapu para maligtas ang inyong espiritu..."
"ang sabi ng banal na kasulatan... ang sinumang hindi kaanib ng iglesia ay mapupunta sa kumukulong apoy at grava..."
"ang sabi ng Bible... ang sinumang hindi mabautismuhan ay sa impiyerno ang kakasadlakan..."

eto namang member na takot na takot mamatay at mapunta sa impiyerno susundin lahat ng sinasabi ng kanilang ministro...

that is the main reason why most of us are just being religous ... following traditions dahil sa takot na baka mawala ang kanilang kaligtasan...

[barrister]

...we cannot achieve salvation... "salvation" is not something to be achieved... as far as i know "achieve" is something you attain by your own effort...

as for me... salvation is a gift, a gift from God... whether you're worthy or not ito ay libreng ibibigay sa iyo nang walang kabayaran...

..."good works" is not a requirement for salvation (kasi kapag ka ganoon... lalo lang ipapamukha sa atin ng mga religioius people na sila lang ang may karapatan pumunta ng langint... tayong marmaing kasalanan walang pag-asang makpunta)

Parang napag-usapan na natin ang topic na ito, sir dpogs.

Like I said before, I don't believe in the Sola Fide doctrine of the Protestants.

Unfortunately, I don't see any possibility for us to reconcile our views, since Sola Fide is so central to your beliefs.

Pero ok lang yon sir.  The way I see it, puwede nating pag-usapan ang kaibahan ng interpretation natin, at tanggapin na lang natin na may mga topic na hindi na talaga tayo puwedeng magkasundo.

this statement ay puwedeng abusuhin ng mga false church leaders...

this is the main tools of false religion... they are using this statement to control their members... to manipulate their members...

"ang sabi sa bibiliya... kailangan niyong magbigay ng ikapu para maligtas ang inyong espiritu..."
"ang sabi ng banal na kasulatan... ang sinumang hindi kaanib ng iglesia ay mapupunta sa kumukulong apoy at grava..."
"ang sabi ng Bible... ang sinumang hindi mabautismuhan ay sa impiyerno ang kakasadlakan..."

eto namang member na takot na takot mamatay at mapunta sa impiyerno susundin lahat ng sinasabi ng kanilang ministro...

that is the main reason why most of us are just being religous ... following traditions dahil sa takot na baka mawala ang kanilang kaligtasan...

Kahit anong verse at kahit anong statement ay puwedeng abusuhin ng mga bulaaan.  Kaya nga may bibliya, para puwedeng ma-confirm ang sitas kung gusto natin.

Depende sa tao yon. Karamihan sumusunod lang sa religious leaders.  Hindi na nagsusuri ng bibliya.  Basta kung ano ituro ni pastor, tanggap na lang.

Meron namang katulad ko.  Bibliya lang ang sinusunod, hindi sumusunod sa religious leader, hindi miyembro ng kahit anong sekta.

Ikaw sir dpogs, meron bang official doctrine ang denomination mo na sa tingin mo ay mali, o lahat ng official doctrines ninyo ay tama sa tingin mo at tanggap mo lahat?

[newbie pa rin]

@barrister, @dpogs - natutuwa naman ako at pareho kayong naniniwala na may Dios at pareho kayong naniniwala ng ang Biblia ay salita ng Dios.
Tulad nyo ganyan din ang paniniwala ko, nagkaroon lang tayo ng kaunting pagkakaiba sa interpretasyon.
Dahil magkakaiba tayo isa lang sa atin ang tama o lahat tayo ay mali.

Let me quote dpogs
"What Jesus did on the cross is enough... Jesus said salvation is complete... hindi na natin kailangang dagdagan na kung ano man including good works.

"good works" is just a manifestation ng isang taong nakatanggap ng tunay na salvation"

I'm sure familiar kayo sa parable of the 10 virgins.

What Jesus did on the cross is enough... Jesus said salvation is complete... hindi na natin kailangang dagdagan na kung ano man including good works.

What might be the reason bakit hindi nakapasok ang other five virgins?
Hindi ba enough na namatay si Christ sa cross kaya mayroong hindi nakapasok?

Let me quote barrister
"Meron namang katulad ko.  Bibliya lang ang sinusunod, hindi sumusunod sa religious leader, hindi miyembro ng kahit anong sekta."

This is what the early believers did to strengthen themselves.
Acts 2:42
And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

are you doing the above sir barrister?

Proverbs 12:15
The way of fools seems right to them, but the wise listen to advice.

John 1:1 - trinity of God
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

[Nelson de Leon]

Lahat naman ng churches ata may doctrine. Paano natin malalaman kung tama?
1. It should be biblical.
2. It should not clash with other verses of the bible.
3. You yourself should analyze it, search for it, and of course, study the bible.
4.

Pwede niyo bang dagdagan so that other people may have an idea.

[Nelson de Leon]

Actually, na-reconcile ko na sa utak ko yun point ni bro dpogs and bro atty. Barrister. Hindi ko lang ma-put into words. Hehe!

Anyway, may naiisip akong topic.

How will you know that you are saved?

My take, Ikaw lamang personally ang makakaalam niyan. Ang alam ko, those names that are written in the book of life ang mga saved. Pero there are also promises by Jesus re salvation. it's a matter of accepting that Jesus died for our sins, confession of our sins. And there are also times that good works does not come easy especially sa enemies natin. Ako, I sometimes "force" myself to love my enemies just so I can follow Jesus.

[shrek7]

Actually, na-reconcile ko na sa utak ko yun point ni bro dpogs and bro atty. Barrister. Hindi ko lang ma-put into words. Hehe!

+10

[dpogs]

Actually, na-reconcile ko na sa utak ko yun point ni bro dpogs and bro atty. Barrister. Hindi ko lang ma-put into words. Hehe!

Anyway, may naiisip akong topic.

How will you know that you are saved?

My take, Ikaw lamang personally ang makakaalam niyan. Ang alam ko, those names that are written in the book of life ang mga saved. Pero there are also promises by Jesus re salvation. it's a matter of accepting that Jesus died for our sins, confession of our sins. And there are also times that good works does not come easy especially sa enemies natin. Ako, I sometimes "force" myself to love my enemies just so I can follow Jesus.

-----------------------

Philippians 2:12-13 (KJV)
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

- sinasabi na 'work out YOUR' ibig sabihin meron na siyang taglay salvation - "your salvation" - kailangan lang niyang palaguin, i-exercise ang kanyang salvation

- hindi sanbi dito na 'work out FOR' - kasi kung ang ginamit ay "for" aba eh kailangan nga nating paghirapan ang ating kaligtasan

-----------------------

James 2:18-20 (KJV)
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

having faith and believing hindi lang ganoon kasimple... hindi lahat ng tumatawag na Diyos ay naliligtas... kahit na ang devil naniniwala at nanginginig pa

faith is not a declaration... its an experience... a personal experience between you and Jesus Christ... madaling magsabi na i believe and have faith in Jesus Christ... (note: the devil also believe nanginginig pa).

since it is a personal experience... ikaw lang ang makakapagtestify o makakapagsabi kung ligtas ka nga o hindi... paano naman kami maniniwala na ligtas ka na nga o paano naman namin malalaman na may tunay kang kaligtasan - by your works

sinasabi mo na ligtas ka... then ipakita mo by your works...
sinasabi mo na you have true faith... then show it by your works...
ang tao kasi sanay sa katagang - 'action speaks louder than words'

applicable din dito ang 'work out your salvation'

before us/human... you need to prove your faith through your works
before God... you dont need to prove your faith by your works... Jesus' sacrifice is enough for God to please...

our human nature is sinful we dont have power over sin... but if you are a true son of God... your new nature is righteousness... kaya nga sabi "you need to be born again"... means spiritual birth... you have now power over sin trhough Christ and with the help of Holy Spirit living within you.

so kung meron mang tao na magdeclare na anak siya ng Diyos... tingnan mo lang ugali niya... if he/she is a true son of God... good works will manifest... if not magpapatuloy lang siya sa kanyang kasalanan...

[newbie pa rin]

"if he/she is a true son of God... good works will manifest..."

In war where you are task to kill or be killed by the enemy - which one is doing the good work, you or your enemy?

there are times that good work is dependent on who will benefit.
Pag marami ba mag be-benefit good work na iyong matatawag?
Paano na ang nasagasaan mo in doing the good work?

Example medyo malayo nga lang.
You invented the automobile but brought also pollution in the environment.

[newbie pa rin]

Topic namin kagabi to correct ang teaching na faith alone save ka na.

Eph. 2:8 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

It is by the grace of God that we are save.

[barrister]

@barrister, @dpogs - natutuwa naman ako at pareho kayong naniniwala na may Dios at pareho kayong naniniwala ng ang Biblia ay salita ng Dios.
Tulad nyo ganyan din ang paniniwala ko, nagkaroon lang tayo ng kaunting pagkakaiba sa interpretasyon.
Dahil magkakaiba tayo isa lang sa atin ang tama o lahat tayo ay mali.

Magandang attitude yan sir.  Noong una, pinipilit ko sa iba yung interpretation ko, pero ngayon, I recognize na hindi talaga maiiwasan ang differences in interpretation.
 
Kadalasan may agreement tayo sa basics, pero may differences lang sa detalye, especially the very difficult verses of the bible. 
 

Let me quote dpogs
"What Jesus did on the cross is enough... Jesus said salvation is complete... hindi na natin kailangang dagdagan na kung ano man including good works.

"good works" is just a manifestation ng isang taong nakatanggap ng tunay na salvation"

Tama si sir dpogs, but but I agree only up to a certain point.  Past that point, we have a difference of belief.
 
The bible says, "Faith without works is dead."  Kahit may faith, pero walang works, wala rin daw.  How do they reconcile that with their doctrine that good works are not necessary? 
 
Doon lumalabo iyan.  Pag saved ka raw, automatic na lumilitaw ang good works.  Pag walang good works, it means you were not truly saved in the first place.   
 
Doon nila pinipilit na i-reconcile na hindi kailangan ng good works, pero kailangan ng good works.  Kung hindi kailangan ng good works, bakit kailangan ng faith + works?  kasi may works nga, pero ang works na yon ay automatic na nangyayari kung tunay na saved ka.  Yan yung sinasabi nila na "manifestation" daw ang good works.  Pag walang na-manifest na good works, you did not receive true salvation. 
 
Doesn't make sense to me.
 
   

Let me quote barrister
"Meron namang katulad ko. Bibliya lang ang sinusunod, hindi sumusunod sa religious leader, hindi miyembro ng kahit anong sekta."

This is what the early believers did to strengthen themselves.
Acts 2:42
And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

are you doing the above sir barrister?

Literally, no.  But spiritually, yes.
 
I devote myself to the apostles' teaching and fellowship by studying the bible.  Pag binasa ko yung sinulat ni Pablo, may fellowship ako kay Pablo.  Hindi fellowship sa isang ministro na mali-mali ang interpretation sa sinulat ni Pablo, kundi fellowship kay Pablo mismo.
 
Yung breaking bread and prayers, kailangan nila yon to encourage each other during the time of the apostles.  Remember, konti lang ang marunong bumasa noong panahong yon.  Puro illiterate ang halos lahat ng mga miyembro. 
 
These days, you can have fellowship with the apostles by reading the bible on the internet, including the original Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic, plus accurate translations of the original text.
 
Hindi ako puwedeng sumali sa isang sekta, kasi palagi akong may nakikitang mali sa doktrina nila.  Pero pag may nakita ako na 100% tama ang turo, sasali ako doon.
 
   

Proverbs 12:15
The way of fools seems right to them, but the wise listen to advice.

Tama iyan.  But it can work both ways.
 
Puwede mong sabihin na mali yung akin, akala ko lang tama.  Puwede ko ring sabihin sa iyo na mali ang sa iyo, akala mo lang tama.
 
Sino tama sa ating dalawa?  Bahala na ang Diyos doon.  God knows what is in your heart.  If you made a mistake, but it was an honest mistake after honestly believing in good conscience that you were right, God would understand.
 
Based on these verses, even atheists can be saved, if they honestly follow their conscience:
 
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. (Rom. 2:12-16)
 
 

John 1:1 - trinity of God
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

That verse is not about the Trinity.  Dalawa lang ang pinag-uusapan, hindi tatlo.  Paanong naging Trinity yon?
 
That verse teaches us the following about the nature of the Son ---
 
(a) That the Son existed from the very beginning, even before the creation of angels or the universe;
(b) That the Son was with the Father from the very beginning; and
(c) That the Son and the Father are both Gods.

[barrister]

Topic namin kagabi to correct ang teaching na faith alone save ka na.

Eph. 2:8 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

It is by the grace of God that we are save.

 
No, kulang ang verse na yan para maipaliwanag nang buo ang principle.
 
Dapat sir alamin mo muna ang buong arguments ng dalawang magkakontrang views bago ka makapag decide kung alin ang tama.
 
I assure you, it took me years to understand it.
 
Isang example lang ng kontrang verses:
 
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
 
... 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. (James 2:14-17; 20-24)

[barrister]

Actually, na-reconcile ko na sa utak ko yun point ni bro dpogs and bro atty. Barrister. Hindi ko lang ma-put into words. Hehe!

Ang totoo, magkakontra talaga kami ni sir dpogs, and the difference cannot be reconciled.
 
Pero hindi ko na ipipilit yung akin, kasi naniniwala ako na pinag-aralan din naman nang mabuti ni sir dpogs yung paniniwala niya.
 
 
 

Anyway, may naiisip akong topic.
How will you know that you are saved?
My take, Ikaw lamang personally ang makakaalam niyan. Ang alam ko, those names that are written in the book of life ang mga saved. Pero there are also promises by Jesus re salvation. it's a matter of accepting that Jesus died for our sins, confession of our sins. And there are also times that good works does not come easy especially sa enemies natin. Ako, I sometimes "force" myself to love my enemies just so I can follow Jesus.

Ako naman, ang sagot ko, Diyos lang ang nakakaalam kung ligtas ka.  Hindi mo puwedeng sabihin na ligtas ka na, at hindi mo rin puwedeng sabihin sa kapwa mo na hindi siya ligtas.
 
Ikaw personally, may general idea ka lang kung ligtas ka o hindi, pero hindi ka pa rin sigurado.  Paano kung OK ka ngayon, pero hindi mo alam, makakagawa ka pala ng kasalanan na mabigat in the future?
 
Si St. Paul nga, apostol na, pero nasabi lang niya na maliligtas siya noong malapit na siyang mamatay:
 
6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing. (2 Tim. 4:6-8)

Pero noong malayo pa ang kamatayan ni Pablo, ano ang sabi niya tungkol sa kanyang sarili? ---
 
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
 
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. (Rom.7:14-23)

Apostol na yan, pero ganyan lang ang sabi niya tungkol sa sarili niya.  Kailan niya nasabing ligtas siya?  Noong alam na niya na mamamatay na siya, not before. 
 
Alam niya na kailangan ng good works hanggang kamatayan, at kinikilala niya na kahit apostol na siya, hindi pa rin madali ang manatili sa good works.
 
Ibang-iba sa mga born-again ngayon.  Hindi na kailangan ng good works kasi ginawa na lahat ni Kristo.  Just accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, instant ligtas na raw.  Masyado namang pangahas yon, talo pa si Pablo.
 
Nag "sinner's prayer" lang, sigurado na raw siyang ligtas siya.  Isang minutong proseso lang, ligtas na hanggang paghuhukom.  Talaga namang American fastfood style...   
 
Mabigat na topic yan pag pinasukan ng doktrina ng predestination at ng doktrina ng OSAS ("Once Saved Always Saved"). 
 
Both are false doctrines, na pag pinag-usapan ay siguradong giyera patani ang discussion dito... 

[dpogs]

@ Barrister: you read The Bible very well we have verses in the Bible to support our understanding and belief in terms of salvation... and honestly... mahirap talaga i-reconcile ang paniniwala nating dalawa...

you are right in your point na ang tao ngayon ginagawang madali ang sinasabi nating "sinner's prayer" o ang pagtanggap kay Jesus or ang tinatawag nating 'faith'... pero ang sabi ko nga before... "faith" is not just a declaratin... marami nagsasabi ngayon na save siya... kasi nagpray naman daw at tinggap si Jesus... pero ika nga hindi lahat ng tumatawag na "Diyos ko" ay maliligtas... because faith is an experience re salvation is an experience... it is not just a declaration... same as what Paul experience on the way to damascus na kung saan nabulag siya...

one thing na nato-trouble ako sa salvation + works is the sudden death... all of our life we have good works and then hindi mo napigilan nakagawa ka ng kasalanan tapos bigla kang namatay you're going to hell... you dont have any chance to ask forgiveness.

one thing i like sa salvation is the assurance... whatever happens any moment God assures me that He will take care of me... katulad ng sinabi ni Jesus sa krus sa isang nakapako... ngayon din mismo kasama kita langit (Jesus dont even require that criminal to do good works)...

ang sinasabi naman ni Paul sa Rom 7:14-23 is the war going on in ourself... between human nature - sinful nature and Godly nature... kaya nga sinabi rin niya na we need to drink milk (Word of God) habang bata pa sa pananampalatay and then meat (Word of God) para manatiling malakas and to always overcome our sinful nature... once we got saved human-sinful nature stays and we still in our human nature but we have power over them because of the Holy Spirit liviing within us. kung itutuloy natin sa last verse:

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

"but with the flesh the law of sin... " - Christians or believers are reborn spiritually, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is working in us and at the same time this flesh also working in us... sinasabi lang dito ni Paul ang talagang naeexperience ng isang Christian that there is war raging within us - between flesh and spirit... hindi niya sinabi dito na hindi sya sigurado sa kanyang kaligtasan...

Jesus said "... the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak...", it is every Christians respoinsbility to work out the salvation they have so that they will not always give in sa tawag ng laman...

[Nelson de Leon]

Haha! You are correct. No one can know for sure unless nasa book of life talaga. But there are, more or less guide as to how you can attain it. And yun ang ating walk.

Re faith & good works, here's my take.

You need faith (yun totoong faith ha) of course given na yan. But then kung hindi magmanifest through good works, that would mean may problem sa faith mo. And let us be honest, there are times na mahirap din gawin so sometimes you have to "force" yourself to follow it. Would you guys consider "forcing" to be a manifestation knowing na even if you have a relationship with God and of course given na we are still, not perfect individuals?

[barrister]

@ Barrister: you read The Bible very well we have verses in the Bible to support our understanding and belief in terms of salvation... and honestly... mahirap talaga i-reconcile ang paniniwala nating dalawa...

Salamat sir.  I started studying the bible seriously in 1992.  Pero hindi rin naman 23 years straight, 23 years na on and off lang.
 
Sa akin ok lang na magkaroon tayo ng differences sa detalye.  Malay ko, ako pala ang mali.  Malay mo naman, ikaw pala ang mali... 
 
Pero ang paniniwala ko, kahit mali ang sinuman sa atin, basta in good faith and in good conscience ang error na yon, alam ng Diyos na ang error na yon ay hindi naman sinasadya, kaya maiintindihan ng Diyos yon.
 
 
 

one thing na nato-trouble ako sa salvation + works is the sudden death... all of our life we have good works and then hindi mo napigilan nakagawa ka ng kasalanan tapos bigla kang namatay you're going to hell... you dont have any chance to ask forgiveness.

No need to be troubled.  The bible explains that issue fully.
 
Parang surprise exam sa school yan.  Ano purpose ng teacher sa surprise exam?  To force yourself to always be prepared.  Pag scheduled ang exam, mag-aaral ka lang para sa scheduled date.
 
Sa bible, ang commandment, always be ready.  Examples ng ganyang teaching:
 
35 “Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning, 36 like servants waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him. 37 It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. Truly I tell you, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them. 38 It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the middle of the night or toward daybreak. 39 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. 40 You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.” (Lk. 12:35-40)
 
Paano kung bigla kang inabutan ng katapusan mo nang may mabigat kang kasalanan?  Puwede talagang mangyari yon.  Kaya nga ang utos, you must always be ready.
 
Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. (1 Thess. 5:1)
 
Like a thief in the night daw.  Parang yung Luke 12:39 above, may thief din.  Ang false doctrine na lumitaw diyan, magkakaroon daw ng secret rapture.  Darating nang hindi natin alam.
 
Maling interpretation yon.  Yung thief in the night, hindi mo mamamalayan pag tulog ka.  Pero pag gising ka, malalaman mo.
 
26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. (Lk. 17:26-27)
 
Mapapansin mo, normal ang buhay ng mga tao noong panahon ni Noah. The great flood came, nagulat sila.
 
Bakit sila nagulat? Kasi hindi nila pinansin si Noah. Nangangaral si propeta Noah noon, sinasabi niya na magsisi, at may darating na malaking baha. Walang nakinig. Pero kung nakinig at naniwala sila, hindi sana sila nagulat.
 
Pareho lang ng "thief in the night." Pag tulog ka, e magugulat ka nga pag dumating yon. Pero hindi ka magugulat kung gising ka at lagi kang handa.

 
===================================

 
Therefore, sa question mo na paano yung inabutan ng kamatayan nang may malaking kasalanan, e ganon talaga ang principle sa bible. 
 
Sinasadya talaga ng Diyos na hindi mo malaman ang oras mo, kasi pag alam mo ang oras mo, magpapakatino ka lang pag malapit na, pero magbubulakbol ka pag malayo pa.
 
Kaya nga ito ang utos:
 
Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour. (Mt. 25:13)
 
Why would you need to keep watch, if good works will automatically manifest anyway?

[barrister]

Re faith & good works, here's my take.

You need faith (yun totoong faith ha) of course given na yan. But then kung hindi magmanifest through good works, that would mean may problem sa faith mo. And let us be honest, there are times na mahirap din gawin so sometimes you have to "force" yourself to follow it. Would you guys consider "forcing" to be a manifestation knowing na even if you have a relationship with God and of course given na we are still, not perfect individuals?

Yan yung point ko.  Mahirap magpakatino.  Paanong naging automatic na manifestation ng previously received salvation ang good works kung kailangang magpapakahirap para magpakabuti?  Kung automatic yon, e di wala ka sanang hirap.
 
Si Pablo nga nahirapan, ikaw pa kaya?
 
Ano sabi ni Pablo tungkol sa gawain ng Kristiyano, automatic manifestation, o isang mahirap na laban na parang digmaan?
 
¹¹ Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. ¹² For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. (Eph. 6:11-12)
 
Ang bibigat pala ng mga kalaban natin.  Biro mo, kailangan pa nating isuot ang "full armor of God," samantalang wala raw kahirap-hirap na automatic manifestation ang gawain natin.
 
Ano ang ibig sabihin ng "full armor of God"?  Ituloy natin ang mga sitas:
 
13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. (Eph. 6:13-17)
 

==================================
 
 
So, ang gawain ba natin ay isang matinding digmaan para makamit ang salvation, o ito ba ay automatic manifestation lang ng previously acquired salvation?

[newbie pa rin]

Eph. 2:8 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

It is by the grace of God that we are save.

No, kulang ang verse na yan para maipaliwanag nang buo ang principle.
 

I believe it is complete and clear, without the grace of God we can not be save.
Even if you have faith, even if you have good works - without the grace of God you can not be save.


John 1:1 - trinity of God
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

Word = Son
Word was with God = Son was with the Father
Word was God = Son was God
God = God
Son = Father

God's trinity can be describe like water it has different state.
Water = H2O
Ice = frozen H2O
Steam = boiling H2O

Same H2O but different state and properties.
If you say that water is bigger than ice or better than ice or superior than ice...depends on the application.