Topic: The Religion Thread

[bumblebee]

Iba naman yang sagot mo e. I was asking kung may predestined na, at exclusive ito, bakit kailangan pang mamatay ni Jesus.

[dpogs]

Iba naman yang sagot mo e. I was asking kung may predestined na, at exclusive ito, bakit kailangan pang mamatay ni Jesus.

To become perfect sacrifice for our sins.

...and without shedding of blood is no remission. Heb.9:22 KJV

Jesus had to die because He is the only one qualified to be a perfect lamb, to be a sacrificed, He is the only one who can pay the penalty of our sins.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

[bumblebee]

Bakit nga kailangan pang bayaran? Kung hindi binayaran, maliligtas ba yung predestined?

[dpogs]

Bakit nga kailangan pang bayaran? Kung hindi binayaran, maliligtas ba yung predestined?

"... and without shedding of blood is no remission." Heb.9:22 KJV

"...and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. " Heb.9:22 NIV

No souls will be forgiven if Jesus did not die in the cross.

[bumblebee]

Okay, you believe that kahit may predestined na, required pa rin yung sacrifice ni Jesus. Got that.

There's really no way to join the predestined club? If you're in, you can't go out? (I had to ask pa talaga, e wala nga palang free will )

[dpogs]

Okay, you believe that kahit may predestined na, required pa rin yung sacrifice ni Jesus. Got that.

There's really no way to join the predestined club? If you're in, you can't go out? (I had to ask pa talaga, e wala nga palang free will )

The Bible said... believe and you will be saved.

[pTrader]

Tama.  Yung children of the promise ang considered descendants ni Abraham.
 
Sino ba yung dapat na considered descendants ni Abraham?  Si Ishmael.  Bakit?  Siya yung panganay ni Abraham.
 
Pero sino ang gusto ng Diyos na considered descendants ni Abraham?  Si Isaac na second-born --- the child of the promise.
 
If Isaac is the child of the promise, then Isaac and the descendants of Isaac are the children of the promise.  They are considered the descendants of Abraham.
 
Di ba ito yung sabi ko:
 

=================================
 

Why is Isaac considered the child of the promise?  Because a son was promised to Sarah when she was already 90 years old:
 
8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.” (Rom. 9:8-9)
 

==================================
 
 
The Old Testament story:
 
 
One day, three men came to Abraham and Sarah. ---
 
9 “Where is your wife Sarah?” they asked him. “There, in the tent,” he said.
 
10 Then one of them said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son.”
 
Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him. 11 Abraham and Sarah were already very old, and Sarah was past the age of childbearing. ...
 
14 Is anything too hard for the Lord? I will return to you at the appointed time next year, and Sarah will have a son.”  (Gen. 18:9-11, 14)

The son was named "Isaac." ---
 
Now the Lord was gracious to Sarah as he had said, and the Lord did for Sarah what he had promised. 2 Sarah became pregnant and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the very time God had promised him. 3 Abraham gave the name Isaac to the son Sarah bore him. (Gen. 21:1-3)
 
 
==================================
 

Nasaan ang predestination to heaven diyan?  Wala na naman.

Sino ba daw yung Children of Promise...


Gal 3:7Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”d9So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

26So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.


It is not a matter of Ishmael, Isaac, Sarah, etc that you are discussing but about the promise of God to Abraham "“All nations will be blessed through you.”

9So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[jhelenz]

The question is, why would he need to die if people are already predestined?

not all are predestined. several Jews lang ang predestined. hindi rin puede ng sabihin na ung mga tumanggap kay Jesus lang ang maliligtas. you see God is a good, just and fair God

[bumblebee]

not all are predestined. several Jews lang ang predestined

My previous question has been answered. Regarding this naman, I am assuming different religion ito, the 144000 Jews do not need Jesus to be saved?

[jhelenz]

My previous question has been answered. Regarding this naman, I am assuming different religion ito, the 144000 Jews do not need Jesus to be saved?

why stop there? ask mo na din about the people who died without hearing the word of God, mentally incapacity, etc

[dpogs]

why stop there? ask mo na din about the people who died without hearing the word of God, mentally incapacity, etc

Sa mga bata once na narating nila ang age of accountqbility, alam na nila kung ano ang tama at mali, aware sila may nagawa silang kasalanan, responsible na sila sa kanilang kasalanan.
Sa mga taong may mental incapacity since birth di pa nila nararating ang age of accountability.

We are not going to hell not because we didnt heard the Word of God, nor because we didnt accept Jesus, nor because we didnt believe in God, we are going to hell because of our sins, because we are sinners.

[barrister]

Sino ba daw yung Children of Promise...


Gal 3:7Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”d9So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

26So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.


It is not a matter of Ishmael, Isaac, Sarah, etc that you are discussing but about the promise of God to Abraham "“All nations will be blessed through you.”

9So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

No, that's not right.  Both groups are called children of the promise.  One is physical, the other is spiritual.
 
I'm surprised that you failed to comprehend this, because this is an easy biblical concept.  Very basic, not complicated at all.
 
 
===================================
 
 
Here are the relevant biblical principles:
 
- In the bible, there are two kinds of Jews --- The physical Jews and the spiritual Jews.
 
- The physical Jews are the literal Jews --- The physical nation of Israel.
- The spiritual Jews are figurative Jews --- The Gentiles who believe in Christ. 
 
 
==================================
 
 
1.  The physical Jews are the nation of Israel.  They are the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
 
Isaac is the child of promise, because he was promised to Sarah.  Isaac and his descendants are called the children of promise.  What kind of children of promise?  Physical.
 
Our topic was Romans 9, and Romans 9 was talking about the bloodline of Israel:
 
6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.” (Rom. 9:6-9)
 
The firstborn should be the reckoning point of descent.  But here, it clarifies that Ishmael the firstborn was not considered the reckoning point. 
 
"It is not the children of physical descent who are God's children" - It means it is not the children of Ishmael, the firstborn, who are God's children.
 
"On the contrary, It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." - Instead of following the tradition of firstborn determination, it was through Isaac the second-born that descent was determined.
 
Isaac and his offspring are the children of promise.  This is still physical, since the bloodlines of heredity are physically present from Isaac to his descendants.  So they are the physical "children of the promise."
 
Verse 9 --- "For this was how the promise was stated: At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son." --- Sarah's son Isaac and his descendants are the children of the promise.  Why?  Because Isaac was promised to Sarah in her old age.   
 
The subject is still about physical bloodlines, therefore they are physical children of the promise.  Romans 9:9 stated it very clearly.  I don't see how it can be any clearer.
 
 
 
2.  The spiritual Jews are the Gentile Christians.
 
21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.
 
24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:

“Be glad, barren woman, you who never bore a child; shout for joy and cry aloud, you who were never in labor; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband.”
 
28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. (Gal. 4:21-28)

First, the physical children of promise --- Isaac and his descendants.  Now, the spiritual children of promise --- the Gentile Christians.
 
Verse 28 ---  Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 
 
The Gentile Christians are not the original, physical children of promise.  They are the spiritual children of promise. 
 
The Gentile Christians cannot be physical descendants because they do not belong to the proper bloodline.  That's why it says they are only "like Isaac."
 
 
 
===================================
 
 
 
Further proof of the distincton between the physical Jews and the spiritual Jews:
 
28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.  (Rom. 2:28)
 
Even if you are not physically a member of the Israelite bloodline, you can be a Jew spiritually if you are a Jew inwardly.

[pTrader]

No, that's not right.  Both groups are called children of the promise.  One is physical, the other is spiritual.
 
I'm surprised that you failed to comprehend this, because this is an easy biblical concept.  Very basic, not complicated at all.
 
 
===================================
 
 
Here are the relevant biblical principles:
 
- In the bible, there are two kinds of Jews --- The physical Jews and the spiritual Jews.
 
- The physical Jews are the literal Jews --- The physical nation of Israel.
- The spiritual Jews are figurative Jews --- The Gentiles who believe in Christ. 
 
 
==================================
 
 
1.  The physical Jews are the nation of Israel.  They are the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
 
Isaac is the child of promise, because he was promised to Sarah.  Isaac and his descendants are called the children of promise.  What kind of children of promise?  Physical.
 
Our topic was Romans 9, and Romans 9 was talking about the bloodline of Israel:
 
6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.” (Rom. 9:6-9)
 
The firstborn should be the reckoning point of descent.  But here, it clarifies that Ishmael the firstborn was not considered the reckoning point. 
 
"It is not the children of physical descent who are God's children" - It means it is not the children of Ishmael, the firstborn, who are God's children.
 
"On the contrary, It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." - Instead of following the tradition of firstborn determination, it was through Isaac the second-born that descent was determined.
 
Isaac and his offspring are the children of promise.  This is still physical, since the bloodlines of heredity are physically present from Isaac to his descendants.  So they are the physical "children of the promise."
 
Verse 9 --- "For this was how the promise was stated: At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son." --- Sarah's son Isaac and his descendants are the children of the promise.  Why?  Because Isaac was promised to Sarah in her old age.   
 
The subject is still about physical bloodlines, therefore they are physical children of the promise.  Romans 9:9 stated it very clearly.  I don't see how it can be any clearer.
 
 
 
2.  The spiritual Jews are the Gentile Christians.
 
21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.
 
24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:

“Be glad, barren woman, you who never bore a child; shout for joy and cry aloud, you who were never in labor; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband.”
 
28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. (Gal. 4:21-28)

First, the physical children of promise --- Isaac and his descendants.  Now, the spiritual children of promise --- the Gentile Christians.
 
Verse 28 ---  Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 
 
The Gentile Christians are not the original, physical children of promise.  They are the spiritual children of promise. 
 
The Gentile Christians cannot be physical descendants because they do not belong to the proper bloodline.  That's why it says they are only "like Isaac."
 
 
 
===================================
 
 
 
Further proof of the distincton between the physical Jews and the spiritual Jews:
 
28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.  (Rom. 2:28)
 
Even if you are not physically a member of the Israelite bloodline, you can be a Jew spiritually if you are a Jew inwardly.

You might be missing this:

For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

[pTrader]

physical children of promise ?? spiritual spiritual children of promise??

wala niyan sir.. basahin mo ito:

Gal 3:28There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[barrister]

You might be missing this:

For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

Tama yan. 
 
Not because they are the seed of Abraham are they all children.  Ishmael is the seed of Abraham as the firstborn, yet it is the second-born Isaac who is considered the seed.
 
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
 
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
 
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.  (Rom. 9:6-8)

 
Did I miss that?  I don't think so.

[pTrader]

Tama yan. 
 
Not because they are the seed of Abraham are they all children.  Ishmael is the seed of Abraham as the firstborn, yet it is the second-born Isaac which is considerd the seed.
 
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
 
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
 
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.  (Rom. 9:6-8)

 
Did I miss that?  I don't think so.

ibig sabihin mo walang maliligtas sa mga descendant ni Ishmael.. eh ang pangao  inde lamang mula sa Hudyo ganun sa mga Hentil

[Nelson de Leon]

Iba naman yang sagot mo e. I was asking kung may predestined na, at exclusive ito, bakit kailangan pang mamatay ni Jesus.

From the predestination point of view, kasama sa predestination din yun death of Jesus.

[pTrader]

ang dugo po ang pambayad sa kasalanan  eh , kaya kailangan mamatay si Jesus..

Hebrew 9:22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

[pTrader]

Wala pong Bibilical principles na nasa baba sa Kasulatan, ang maliwanag po ay either Jews or Gentiles

Talaga namang may two kinds of Jews, those Jews who believe in Christ and those Jews who do not believe in Christ.

Here are the relevant biblical principles:
 
- In the bible, there are two kinds of Jews --- The physical Jews and the spiritual Jews.
 
- The physical Jews are the literal Jews --- The physical nation of Israel.
- The spiritual Jews are figurative Jews --- The Gentiles who believe in Christ. 

The Jews who believe/faith in Christ are Jews
The Gentile who believe/faith in Christ are Gentiles

Pero sila po ay parehong Abraham's seed and heirs accoding to the promise.

Gal 3:28There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.


saan kaya nila pinulot ang physical at spritual Jews na teaching.. I wonder.. hmmm
******

Balikan at isa isahin natin yung mga sitas - Romans 9

Tama yan. 
 
Not because they are the seed of Abraham are they all children.  Ishmael is the seed of Abraham as the firstborn, yet it is the second-born Isaac which is considerd the seed.
 
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
 

Maliwanag na inde tinitake for consideration yung buong Israel

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
 

Sinasabe na magmumula kay Isaac pertaining to seed of Abraham tatawagin yung hinirang ng Dios.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.  (Rom. 9:6-8)[/color][/i]

Inde pala ibinibilang  yung angkan kundi anak ng pangako.
 
Did I miss that?  I don't think so.

Inde pala ibinibilang  yung angkan kundi anak ng pangako.

9For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”c
 
10Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”d13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”e
 

So saan magagaling yung mga hinirang ng Dios mula sa bayang Israel kay Jacob.

Pero lahat ba ng bayang Israel. Hindi. Basahin po ang paunang verse uli o ang verse sa baba.

6It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children.

Inde ibig sabihin mula ka sa angkan ni Abraham o ni Israel, lahat sila ay pinili. May hinirang po ang Dios mula sa mga angkan ng mga ito na ibinilang ng Dios sa anak sa pangako.

Pag papatunay yung verse 8 sa baba:

8In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

ang mga anak sa pangako'y siyang ibibilang na isang binhi

Mula kay Abraham, Isaac, Jacob at sa mga hinirang Dios mula sa angkan ni Jacob (Israel) - naka paloob yung pangako kaya po sinabing children of promise.

Yung sa taas para sa mga hinirang ng Dios mula sa angkan ni Jacob o Israel.

E paano naman yung mga Hentil, eto po basa sa baba:

3At upang maipakilala ang kayamanan ng kaniyang kaluwalhatian sa mga sisidlan ng awa, na kaniyang inihanda nang una pa sa kaluwalhatian, 24Maging sa atin na kaniya namang tinawag, hindi lamang mula sa mga Judio, kundi naman mula sa mga Gentil?

25Gaya naman ng sinasabi niya sa aklat ni Oseas, Tatawagin kong aking bayan na hindi ko dating bayan; At iniibig, na hindi dating iniibig.

26At mangyayari, na sa dakong pinagsabihan sa kanila, kayo'y hindi ko bayan, Ay diyan sila tatawaging mga anak ng Dios na buhay.

Maliwanag na may tinawag ang Dios mula sa mga Hentil at inaring Kanyang bayan o mga anak Niya.

Maliwanag po na yung mga hinirang Dios, mula sa angkan ni Israel at mula sa mga Hentil, ang pinangakuan ng kaligtasan.

Kaya kung babasahin mo yung paunang mga salita ni Pablo sa aklat ng Romans eto ang mababasa :

7To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people:

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

7Sa lahat ninyong nangasa Roma, mga iniibig ng Dios, tinawag na mangagbanal: Sumainyo nawa ang biyaya at kapayapaang mula sa Dios na ating Ama at Panginoong Jesucristo.

iniibig at tinawag

[barrister]

physical children of promise ?? spiritual spiritual children of promise??

wala niyan sir.. basahin mo ito:

Gal 3:28There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Madali lang intindihin yan sir.

1. Children of promise by descent: On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” (Rom. 9:6) They are children of promise because they are descendants of Isaac.

2. Children of promise by faith: 28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. (Gal. 4:28)  They are not descendants of Isaac, yet they are children of promise, but only "like Isaac."

One is by descent --- physical children. The other is by faith in Christ --- spiritual children.

Very easy.

Gal 3:28There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

That is figurative, not literal.

How do we know it's figurative? Very easy.

Ang sabi, "nor is there male or female." Wala na palang lalaki at babae ngayon? Mali. Meron pa ring lalaki at babae ngayon.

Ang sabi rin, "there is neither Jew or Gentile." Wala na palang Jew or Gentile ngayon? Mali rin. Trace mo lang ang lahi, makikita mo ang Jew at Gentile. Kaya meron pa ring Jew and Gentile ngayon.

Paanong magiging tama ang sitas?

Alamin mo muna kung ano yung topic. Ito ang pinag-uusapan: "for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

Yon naman pala. Kung salvation through Christ ang usapin, male or female, pareho lang may pag-asa sa kaligtasan. Kung salvation through Christ ang usapin, Jew or Gentile, pareho lang may pag-asa sa kaligtasan.

Therefore, figurative ito, hindi literal. Spiritual ito, hindi physical.

In the Old Testament, you must be part of the bloodline of Abraham --- the physical Israel.

In the New Testament, no need for bloodline, all you need is faith in Christ --- the spiritual Israel.

29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal. 3:29)

Abaraham's seed sa Old Testament. Bakit sa New Testament, Abraham's seed pa rin?

Kasi hindi na physical Abraham's seed by bloodline. Spiritual Abraham's seed na by faith in Christ.

Very easy.


====================================


How will you be saved? By faith in Christ.

Jew or Gentile, male or female, all are equal because they all have an equal chance at salvation if they have faith in Christ.
 
Kung predestined ka na since the beginning of time, why would you need faith in Christ? Magbulakbol ka na lang, sigurado namang ligtas ka kahit ano gawin mo.

You will be saved if you have faith in Christ.  Free will yon, hindi predestination. 

Nasaan ang predestination diyan? Wala na naman.

[barrister]

ibig sabihin mo walang maliligtas sa mga descendant ni Ishmael.. eh ang pangao  inde lamang mula sa Hudyo ganun sa mga Hentil

Lagi mo kasing pinipilit sir ang topic na predestination, kahit descendants lang ang pinag-uusapan.
 
Kahit si Ishmael ang panganay, si Isaac ang pinili. 
 
Pinili para saan?  Pinili para maging predestined to eternal salvation since the beginning of time?  Hindi.  Pinili para maging lahi kung saan ipanganganak si Hesus. 
 
Lahi lang yon.  Hindi predestination to eternal salvation.

[pTrader]

Madali lang intindihin yan sir.

1. Children of promise by descent: On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” (Rom. 9:6) They are children of promise because they are descendants of Isaac.

2. Children of promise by faith: 28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. (Gal. 4:21-28) They are not descendants of Isaac, but they are children of promise "like Isaac."

One is by descent --- physical children. The other is by faith in Christ --- spiritual children.

Very easy.



That is figurative, not literal.

How do we know it's figurative? Very easy.

Ang sabi, "nor is there male or female." Wala na palang lalaki at babae ngayon? Mali. Meron pa ring lalaki at babae ngayon.

Ang sabi rin, "there is neither Jew or Gentile." Wala na palang Jew or Gentile ngayon? Mali rin. Trace mo lang ang lahi, makikita mo ang Jew at Gentile. Kaya meron pa ring Jew and Gentile ngayon.

Paanong magiging tama ang sitas?

Alamin mo muna kung ano yung topic. Ito ang pinag-uusapan: "for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

Yon naman pala. Kung salvation through Christ ang usapin, male or female, pareho lang may pag-asa sa kaligtasan. Kung salvation through Christ ang usapin, Jew or Gentile, pareho lang may pag-asa sa kaligtasan.

Therefore, figurative ito, hindi literal. Spiritual ito, hindi physical.

In the Old Testament, you must be part of the bloodline of Abraham --- the physical Israel.

In the New Testament, you need faith in Christ --- the spiritual Israel.

29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal. 3:29)

Abaraham's seed sa Old Testament. Bakit sa New Testament, Abraham's seed pa rin?

Kasi hindi na physical Abraham's seed by bloodline. Spiritual Abraham's seed na by faith in Christ.

Very easy.


====================================


How will you be saved? By faith in Christ.

Jew or Gentile, male or female, all are equal because they all have an equal chance at salvation by faith in Christ.

Freee will yon, hindi predestination.

Nasaan ang predestination diyan? Wala na naman.

isama ko yung paunang verse para maintindihan mo you proper context


26So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Inde na po kino-consider kung Jews ka o Gentile ka, lalaki ka o babae ka yun po ang ibigsahin ng verse para yung lahat po na kay Cristo.

Madali lang intindihin yan sir.

1. Children of promise by descent: On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” (Rom. 9:6) They are children of promise because they are descendants of Isaac.

2. Children of promise by faith: 28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. (Gal. 4:21-28) They are not descendants of Isaac, but they are children of promise "like Isaac."

One is by descent --- physical children. The other is by faith in Christ --- spiritual children.

2. Children of promise by faith: 28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. (Gal. 4:21-28) They are not descendants of Isaac, but they are children of promise "like Isaac."

yung Children of Promise By Faith is like Isaac, ibig sabihin si Isaac ay spiritual children.
e sinasabe rin na si Isaac ay yung physical children by descent.

Malinaw na walang pagkakaiba yung physical descent at spiritual children.

Inde ka ba nagugulo sa sinasabe mo?
 

[barrister]

isama ko yung paunang verse para maintindihan mo you proper context


26So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Inde na po kino-consider kung Jews ka o Gentile ka, lalaki ka o babae ka yun po ang ibigsahin ng verse para yung lahat po na kay Cristo.

Pareho rin yan nung sinabi ko, e... 
 
 
 

yung Children of Promise By Faith is like Isaac, ibig sabihin si Isaac ay spiritual children.
e sinasabe rin na si Isaac ay yung physical children by descent.

Malinaw na walang pagkakaiba yung physical descent at spiritual children.

Inde ka ba nagugulo sa sinasabe mo?

Napakadali lang intindihin niyan sir.
 
Alamin mo lang kung sino ang kausap ni Pablo.
 
Sino ang kausap sa Rom. 9:6 (bloodline of Isaac)?  Sino ang kausap sa Gal. 4:28 (not the bloodline, but only "like Isaac")?
 
Maliwanag na malaki ang kaibahan ng hereditary descent as basis for the bloodline of Jesus, sa faith in Christ as basis for the salvation of all.
 
Simpleng-simple, hindi na kailangan ng dagdag pang paliwanag.

[barrister]

Bakit nga kailangan pang bayaran? Kung hindi binayaran, maliligtas ba yung predestined?

Ang dapat na tanong, ano ang babayaran kung predestined din naman pala? If predestined to heaven, dapat they do not sin.  If they do not sin, what has to be paid for?

Ang sabi nila, predestined, pero nagkakaroon ng sin.  Christ will pay for the sins only of those predestined to heaven.

Sana derecho na sa langit, pero ang gusto, sa lupa muna, magkakasala muna, tapos ililigtas, tapos pupunta sa langit.  Pero since the beginning of time, they were predestined to heaven, and it's impossible for them not to get to heaven.

Umikot pa ng round trip, imposible naman palang hindi sa langit ang punta.

Makes no sense.


===================================


Our earthly life is a testing ground. If we use our free will to follow Christ, we qualify for heaven.  Otherwise, we go to hell.

Which one makes more sense?

[dpogs]

Ang dapat na tanong, ano ang babayaran kung predestined din naman pala? If predestined to heaven, dapat they do not sin.  If they do not sin, what has to be paid for?

Ang sabi nila, predestined, pero nagkakaroon ng sin.  Christ will pay for the sins only of those predestined to heaven.

Sana derecho na sa langit, pero ang gusto, sa lupa muna, magkakasala muna, tapos ililigtas, tapos pupunta sa langit.  Pero since the beginning of time, they were predestined to heaven, and it's impossible for them not to get to heaven.

Umikot pa ng round trip, imposible naman palang hindi sa langit ang punta.

Makes no sense.


===================================


Our earthly life is a testing ground. If we use our free will to follow Christ, we qualify for heaven.  Otherwise, we go to hell.

Which one makes more sense?

How can we glorify God if we didnt fall and how can we glorify God if we have part in our own salvation? Salvation is given to us, it is free, we never work for our salvation.

Can I give all the glory to God if I need to keep working for my own salvation?

The Holy Spirit will touched the heart of a man after hearing the Word of God (dito na papasok ang free will) and if that man rejects the Holy SPirit and didnt believe the Word of GOd he is going to hell and if he heed to the Holy SPirt and believe that Jesus is Lord and Saviour he is going to be saved. THe glory will be all to God. We didnt have any part in our salvation. God alone completed our salvation.

[barrister]

The Holy Spirit will touched the heart of a man after hearing the Word of God (dito na papasok ang free will) and if that man rejects the Holy SPirit and didnt believe the Word of GOd he is going to hell and if he heed to the Holy SPirt and believe that Jesus is Lord and Saviour he is going to be saved.

That is not Five-Point Calvinism.  That is free will, not predestination.

That violates "Irresistible Grace," the "I" in TULIP, the acronym of Five-Point Calvinism.

In Calvinism's doctrine of Irresistible Grace, it will be impossible for the those elected since the beginning of time to resist the inward call of the Holy Spirit.  That's why it's called "irresistible." http://www.thecaveonline.com/APEH/calvinTULIP.html

If it is irresistible to the elect, then elect have no free will in this matter. 

Yet you say they have free will to reject the Holy Spirit?  That is not Calvinism.  That is not predestination.

[dpogs]

That is not Five-Point Calvinism.  That is free will, not predestination.

That violates "Irresistible Grace," the "I" in TULIP, the acronym of Five-Point Calvinism.

In Calvinism's doctrine of Irresistible Grace, it will be impossible for the those elected since the beginning of time to resist the inward call of the Holy Spirit.  That's why it's called "irresistible." http://www.thecaveonline.com/APEH/calvinTULIP.html

If it is irresistible to the elect, then elect have no free will in this matter. 

Yet you say they have free will to reject the Holy Spirit?  That is not Calvinism.  That is not predestination.

<qouted>
Unconditional election also does not mean that there will be people in heaven who do not want to be there, nor will there be people in hell who wanted to be saved but could not be because they were not elect. Unconditional election properly recognizes that, apart from God’s supernatural work in the life of a sinner, men will always choose to reject God and rebel against Him. What unconditional election does correctly recognize is that God intervenes in the lives of the elect and works in their lives through the Holy Spirit so that they willingly respond in faith to Him. Because they are “his sheep…they hear his voice and follow him” (John 10:1-30). As for the non-elect, God is still gracious to them, but because of their sin they are not thankful for that grace, nor do they acknowledge Him as God (Romans 1:18-20). Consequently, they receive the just punishment due them. Those whom God elects are beneficiaries of His sovereign grace and mercy, and those whom He does not elect receive the justice they have earned. While the elect receive God’s perfect grace, the non-elect receive God’s perfect justice.
<qouted>

[barrister]

<qouted>
... God intervenes in the lives of the elect and works in their lives through the Holy Spirit so that they willingly respond in faith to Him. ...
<qouted>

 

The http://www.gotquestions.org/unconditional-election.html quote says the so-called elect "willingly respond in faith" to God.
 
When were they elected?  Before they were born.  Since the beginning of time.
 
Is it possible for them not to "willingly respond in faith to God"?  No, because they were predestined to willingly respond in faith to God.
 
How can it be free will if it is impossible to reject it?
 
 

According to Calvinism, man has no free will in eternal salvation.  Either he's elected or he's not.
 
But just insert the word "willing" and it sounds like he's willing, even if it's impossible for him to refuse because he was predestined.
 
That's how Calvinism sanitizes its unbiblical doctrine of predestination.
 
 
==================================
 
 
A Calvinist’s Understanding of “Free-Will”
March 1, 2010
 
... Calvinists, such as myself, do believe in free will and we don’t believe in free will. It just depends on what you mean.
 
... If you ask whether a person can choose against their nature (i.e. libertarian freedom) the answer, I believe, must be “no.” A person’s nature makes up who they are. Who they are determines their choice. If there choice is determined, then the freedom is self-limited. Therefore, there is no “power” of contrary choice for we cannot identify what or who this “power” might be.
 
... If people are identified with the fallen nature of Adam, then they will make choices similar to that of Adam because it is who they are. Yes, they are making a free choice, but this choice does not include the liberty or freedom of contrary choice.
 
http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2010/03/a-calvinists-understanding-of-free-will/

[dpogs]

Well, i am not a calvinist, calvinist believed that an elected person will be saved even if they not share the Word of God.

I believe that i am not capable of looking for God, because of my sin i am always willing to reject God even deny His existemce. The Bible said it is God who seek, and me always hide. Without God i will never accept Jesus as my savior. God touched my heart and i believed.

Election is Biblical since it is in the Bible, apostles use them in theie greetings to churches, they use it to glorify God, to show the grace of God.

Yes, apart from grace of God, men will not be saved. Men will go to hell not because they were not elected, nor because they did not hrar the gospel. Men will die spiritially becaise of our sins.

2 Timothy 1:9 - Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

God draws me, Holy Spirit touched my heart upon hearing the Word of God and I believe and accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour.

Without the Holy Spirit human will always willingly reject God's grace that is salvation in God alone. Human will always make effort to save themselves not recognizing the very effort Jesus did to save them.

[barrister]

Well, i am not a calvinist, calvinist believed that an elected person will be saved even if they not share the Word of God.

What if Calvinists believe that an elected person also has the responsibility to share the word of God, would you then consider yourself Calvinist?
 
It is not true that Calvinists do not believe they have a responsibility to evangelize.
 
Calvinism and Evangelism
Bill Welzien
 
... At this point, the non-Calvinist infers that the impetus and urgency to proclaim the gospel is gone, or diminished at best. After all, if God knows who is going to be saved, and if he will save his elect no matter what, why waste our time evangelizing?
 
But it is important to recognize that the God of the Bible ordains not only the end (salvation) but also the means to the end (the proclamation of the gospel).
 
Jesus is the Good Shepherd. And through evangelism, he is calling his sheep to himself. He calls his own sheep by name, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice (John 10:3-4). They know his voice because, at God's appointed time, the Holy Spirit gives the elect ears to hear and hearts to understand (Matt. 13:23).

... Does Calvinism take the wind out of the sails of evangelism? Properly understood and sincerely believed, it does exactly the opposite. Believing that God has a sovereign plan to bring all his elect to himself actually encourages evangelism. It gives confidence to us, God's people, to fulfill our God-given responsibility to spread his gospel. We know that our labor in the Lord is never in vain (1 Cor. 15:58)!
 
http://www.opc.org/new_horizons/NH01/07b.html

Calvinists believe that those who will be saved were predestined to be saved. But they also believe salvation is the end result; that evangelization is the ordinary means to that end; that God brings the elect to Himself though the preaching of the gospel.
 
Therefore, Calvinists are encouraged to evangelize God's word to to others.
 
In fact, John Calvin himself viewed evangelism as an obigation of the elect. Calvin wrote:
 
"It is a sacrifice well-pleasing to God to advance the spread of the gospel."
"It is very just that we should labor ... to further the progress of the gospel."
"We must, in gratitude, bring the gospel to others in distress or appear ungrateful to God for our own salvation." http://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/ref-rev/10-4/10-4_beeke.pdf
 
 

Election is Biblical since it is in the Bible, apostles use them in theie greetings to churches, they use it to glorify God, to show the grace of God.

Yes, election is biblical.

But the problem is not the word itself; the problem is Calvinism's misunderstanding of the word.
 

===================================
 

2 Timothy 1:9 - Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Tama. God called us according to His purpose and grace.
 
What was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began? The plan of salvation. Not the individual's predestination to salvation, just the plan of salvation for all.
 
What's the plan? You will receive salvation on the condition that you have faith in Christ.
 
Therefore, you're free to refuse if you don't want to comply with the condition.
 
That's free will, not predestination.
 

John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Tama. The Israelites rejected the Father, that's why they can't come to the Son.
 
This is the proper approach to understanding the principle:
 
Unlike your prior 2 Tim. 1:9, this verse is about the Jews.  If an Israelite accepted the Father, then he would also accept the Son, because the Father and the Son are one. Since the Israelite who previously accepted the Father first belonged to the Father, the Father will now turn him over to the Son.
 
This has nothing to do with Calvinism.  In Jesus' time, the Jews insisted that they were right with God, but Jesus declared the opposite:
 
“You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.” (John 8:19)
 
“He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.” (John 8:47)
 
According to Jesus, the problem of the Jews was simple:  The Jews rejected the Son because they rejected the Father:  “I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me.” (John 5:43)

To understand your cited John 6:44, let's look at John 6, this time from verse 41. Note that the audience are the Jews:
 
41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

First step, the Jewish faithful, through their own free will, must receive the Father. Since the Father and the Son are one, those who receive the Father should also receive the Son. Then the Father draws them and delivers them to the Son.
 
See the related verse to see what happens after the Father draws the believing Jews:  He delivers them to the Son:
 
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. (Mt. 11:27)
 
First, the Father has the Israelites who by free will belong to Him, then the Father draws them and transfers them to the Son.

That's why for the Israelites of the day, they can't get to the Son unless the Father draws them to the Son, because the starting point is the Father.
 
How do the Israelites start with the Father? By predestination? No. They must do something of their own free will --- hear and learn from the Father.
 
That's why the above-quoted John 6:45 says: They will all be taught by God. Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 
 
First --- taught by God, with this condition --- the Jews hear and learn from Him.  They are free to refuse to hear; they are free to refuse to learn.
 
If the Jews freely hear and learn from the Father, they belong to the Father, then as a continuation, since the Father and the Son are one, they continue to freely come to the Son.  It does not say a certain group that was predestined since the beginning of time will come to the Son.

That's free will, not predestination since the beginning of time.
 
 

John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Tama. We're still in John 6, so the principle is the same.
 
In the doctrine of predestination, the starting point is always election of the saved since the begining of time, which is unbiblical.
 
But in this verse, the starting point is the Jews who by free will received the Father. Then the Father turns them over to the Son, and they continue in free will to have faith in the Son.  Those Jews who continue in free will to have faith in the Son will not be rejected by the Son.
 
That's still free will; still not predestination.
 
 
==================================
 

God draws me, Holy Spirit touched my heart upon hearing the Word of God and I believe and accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour.

Without the Holy Spirit human will always willingly reject God's grace that is salvation in God alone. Human will always make effort to save themselves not recognizing the very effort Jesus did to save them.

If the Holy Spirit touched your heart, do you have free will to reject it?
 
Or is it, according to Calvinism, an "Irresistible Grace" that is impossible to resist?
 
If it is an irresistible grace, then it is not free will.
 
Are you sure you're not a Calvinist?