Topic: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion

[bumblebee]

In an episode of Ancient Aliens on History one of the scientist said this on ancient knowledge:
"The big bang theory states that the universe started from infinitesimal point of light-energy, the bible said
In the beginning God said "let the be light". So in that instance Faith and Science converge!"

Not really. When God said "let the be light", He clearly came before the light. The big bang theory states that the universe started from infinitesimal point of light-energy, meaning before it, there is nothing.

[Quitacet]

Genesis

11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.


nauna ang plants before the sun

[bumblebee]

Genesis

11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.


nauna ang plants before the sun

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

[Quitacet]

the sun and moon was created in the fourth day not during and in the first day as per the genesis kaya nauna talaga plants before sun, so paano nabuhay?

[dpogs]

kung science ang pag-uusapan wala kang make question sa creation (maliban siyempre sa biglang paglitaw )... but its chronoligcal order... scientifically wise/sound ang creation...

[dpogs]

the sun and moon was created in the fourth day not during and in the first day as per the genesis kaya nauna talaga plants before sun, so paano nabuhay?

sun is greater light and moon is lesser light...

nasa post na ri ni bimblebee... sa verse 3 kung ano ang first day... God creaed day and night - The First Day... and then plant and then hinati lang niya ang light... greater and lesser light... thus sun and moon...

[bumblebee]

the sun and moon was created in the fourth day not during and in the first day as per the genesis kaya nauna talaga plants before sun, so paano nabuhay?

But there was light on the first day, kahit hindi sya sun. So pwede pa ring mabuhay plants kasi they need light, not necessarily light from the sun

Editing this.

Na-gets ko na gusto mong sabihin. Oo nga naman. Plants before sun?

[dpogs]

But there was light on the first day, kahit hindi sya sun. So pwede pa ring mabuhay plants kasi they need light, not necessarily light from the sun

and ang sinasabi sa verse 14... hinati lang ang light sa dalawa... greater light (Sun) and lesser light (Moon)... still nauna pa rin ang light kesa sa vegetation/plants....

[bumblebee]

and ang sinasabi sa verse 14... hinati lang ang light sa dalawa... greater light (Sun) and lesser light (Moon)... still nauna pa rin ang light kesa sa vegetation/plants....

Sorry for the confusion dpogs:) I edited my post.

[Quitacet]

di ba night and day is determined by Sun's rotation and the earth's revolution and the moon's as well, paano nagka day and night kung wala pang sun and moon?

at ano yung light na yan na kahit wala pang sun moon and stars ay nakapag-photosynthesis ang mga plants?

so kung hinati lang ang light sa dalawa, saan nagmumula yung light? I mean moon's light comes from the sun. the sun's light is a product of it's combustion and so are the stars'?

[dpogs]

ang sabi nga ni bumblebee hindi lang sun ang source of light...

sun and moon are there just to separate night and day... God created day and night first day.. He created Sun and moon just to separate day and night and govern it... he doesnot create Sun to create day or moon to create night...

[leomarley]

kung science ang pag-uusapan wala kang make question sa creation (maliban siyempre sa biglang paglitaw )... but its chronoligcal order... scientifically wise/sound ang creation...

Sorry but can't help but chuckle on this. And what is this light you're referring to kung wala pang sun? You're basically saying earth was created before the sun.

[majoe]

basahin at intindihin nating mabuti yung verses.

KJV

3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.


14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

sa verse 3, singular ang light. that refers to the sun kaya nga may day and night, morning and evening.

sa verse 14, plural na. meaning, yan na lahat ng lights na nakikita natin sa gabi. stars, moon, galaxies, etc. at binigyang emphasis ang purpose. para maging signs (constellations/occurence of eclipses, blood moons), seasons (we have seasons due to the influence of the moon on earth), days and years (self explanatory).

verse 16-18 is just an elaboration of the purpose of the lights made by God.

[majoe]

kung science ang pag-uusapan wala kang make question sa creation (maliban siyempre sa biglang paglitaw )... but its chronoligcal order... scientifically wise/sound ang creation...

creation account is scientific. from big-bang to evolution and even human cloning.

anong ibig mong sabihin sa biglang paglitaw? 

[leomarley]

seasons (we have seasons due to the influence of the moon to earth)

seasons are not caused by the moon. it's because of the tilt of the Earth's axis.

[bumblebee]

basahin at intindihin nating mabuti yung verses.


sa verse 3, singular ang light. that refers to the sun kaya nga may day and night, morning and evening.

sa verse 14, plural na. meaning, yan na lahat ng lights na nakikita natin sa gabi. stars, moon, galaxies, etc. at binigyang emphasis ang purpose. para maging signs (constellations/occurence of eclipses, blood moons), seasons (we have seasons due to the influence of the moon on earth), days and years (self explanatory).

verse 16-18 is just an elaboration of the purpose of the lights made by God.

If Genesis stated that God made the stars first, pwede pa. The sun is a very young star. The verses are also very earth-centric. We all know that the earth revolves around the sun not the other way around.

[majoe]

seasons are not caused by the moon. it's because of the tilt of the Earth's axis.

true. what i meant was, the moon caused the earth to tilt thus we have seasons. 

[majoe]

If Genesis stated that God made the stars first, pwede pa. The sun is a very young star. The verses are also very earth-centric. We all know that the earth revolves around the sun not the other way around.

young? can you prove it?

the verses never imply that the sun revolves around the earth.

[Verbl Kint]

young? can you prove it?

the verses never imply that the sun revolves around the earth.

Ah but the Church and even Calvin used scripture to prove that the heavenly bodies like the moon and sun moved but not the earth. By extension, geocentricity (that the Earth was the center of the universe) was deemed real.


Joshua 10:12-13
Then spoke Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord gave the Amorites over to the men of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, "Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon, and thou Moon in the valley of Aijalon." And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day

Psalms 93:1
The Lord reigns; he is robbed in majesty; the lord is robbed, he is girded with strength. Yea, the world is established; it shall never be moved.


Too bad for Copernicus.  It was even worse for Galileo, who was essentially tasked to prove, in front of an ecumenical council, that dozens of bible verses were incorrect or untrue.

[leomarley]

true. what i meant is, the moon caused the earth to tilt thus we have seasons. 

again, it does not. the tilt of the Earth's axis is caused by asteroids/comets colliding with the Earth back when the Solar System was just forming. Incidentally, Earth was rotating a lot faster then than it does now (once every 6 to 10 hrs). The Moon's effect is it gradually slowed Earth's rotation down to 24 hrs. Thus, the Moon is not the reason why Earth's axis is tilted.

[majoe]

again, it does not. the tilt of the Earth's axis is caused by asteroids/comets colliding with the Earth back when the Solar System was just forming. Incidentally, Earth was rotating a lot faster then than it does now (once every 6 to 10 hrs). The Moon's effect is it gradually slowed Earth's rotation down to 24 hrs. Thus, the Moon is not the reason why Earth's axis is tilted.

that's a theory, right? i saw that film too.
try reading topic on "nutation".

[majoe]

Ah but the Church and even Calvin used scripture to prove that the heavenly bodies like the moon and sun moved but not the earth. By extension, geocentricity (that the Earth was the center of the universe) was deemed real.


Joshua 10:12-13
Then spoke Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord gave the Amorites over to the men of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, "Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon, and thou Moon in the valley of Aijalon." And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day

Psalms 93:1
The Lord reigns; he is robbed in majesty; the lord is robbed, he is girded with strength. Yea, the world is established; it shall never be moved.


Too bad for Copernicus.  It was even worse for Galileo, who was essentially tasked to prove, in front of an ecumenical council, that dozens of bible verses were incorrect or untrue.

binasa ko

yung sa joshua, momentary lang yun. 1 day lang nangyari. still, hindi ibig sabihin na ang earth ang center ng solar system.

yung sa psalm, out of context kung i rerelate sa pagiging earth-centric
world is "sanlibutan" sa tagalog di ba?

[leomarley]

that's a theory, right? i saw that film too.
try reading topic on "nutation".

it is the prevailing theory. yes i know about nutation. nutation yung cause ng wobbling ng Earth but not the reason why we have seasons and not the reason why Earth's axis is tilted.

[bumblebee]

young? can you prove it?

the verses never imply that the sun revolves around the earth.

It is an accepted fact that the sun is around 5 billion years old (half life). Supernovas and black holes are stars that have "died" so they're much older.

[majoe]

it is the prevailing theory. yes i know about nutation. nutation yung cause ng wobbling ng Earth but not the reason why we have seasons and not the reason why Earth's axis is tilted.

i just found out that it's just a hypothesis. the "big splash" has no acceptable evidence to back it up.
i believe this was conceived because of the notion that everything happened by accident. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutation

Nutation makes a small change to the angle at which the Earth tilts with respect to the Sun, changing the location of the major circles of latitude that are defined by the Earth's tilt (the equator, tropical circles and polar circles).

In the case of the Earth, the principal sources of tidal force are the Sun and Moon, which continuously change location relative to each other and thus cause nutation in Earth's axis. The largest component of Earth's nutation has a period of 18.6 years, the same as that of the precession of the Moon's orbital nodes.

what do you think of this small change in the course of million years?

[majoe]

It is an accepted fact that the sun is around 5 billion years old (half life). Supernovas and black holes are stars that have "died" so they're much older.

yes, it's a fact. wiki tells us that it's roughly 4.567 billion years

so how did they determine the age of the stars?

[leomarley]

i just found out that it's just a hypothesis. the "big splash" has no acceptable evidence to back it up.
i believe this was conceived because of the notion that everything happened by accident. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutation

what do you think of this small change in the course of million years?

nutation is not the reason for any planet's tilted axis. Venus has no moon yet its axis is tilted by approximately 177 degrees. you're saying that Venus is tilted because of nutation? Venus disproves that theory. also, if nutation is indeed the cause of Earth's axial tilt then the variation of the Earth's wobble would've been much greater than 1.2 degrees specially since you've mentioned millions of years but that is not the case.

the prevailing theory that has merit is that an external force, about the size of Mars, colliding with the Proto-Earth, at a 45 degree angle. they have tested this in simulations which, in Science, is an acceptable evidence.

another theory that is gaining ground is attributed to glacier polar caps in the north pole back in the Ice Age. it is said that the Earth was tilted as much as 55 degrees and the build up and melting of glaciers might have created enough force to reduce the tilt to what it is now.

a minor theory is that earthquakes caused the axial tilt.

[leomarley]

yes, it's a fact. wiki tells us that it's roughly 4.567 billion years

so how did they determine the age of the stars?

wiki didn't tell us the age. Science does.

and how did they determine the age of the stars? Einstein's Theory of Relativity.

[docelmo]

Not really. When God said "let the be light", He clearly came before the light. The big bang theory states that the universe started from infinitesimal point of light-energy, meaning before it, there is nothing.

. 

In Genesis 1:3 God said "let there be light" , before this is a statement that God created the heavens and earth and the earth was formless. I take it that this first light is not coming from the sun but from God Himself. This light was intantenously created( ...and then there was light.) much like the description of the light-energy in the big bang theory. Hence the similaties between the two. While scientists believe that there was "nothing" before the light, while the other believe a supreme being outside time and space caused the light into existense. There is a fundamental law called the law of cause and effect which applies to everything right? Even all our HT gears were created or made by someone, thus it would be inconcievable to think that the more complex and vast universe had no cause whatsoever.

[bumblebee]

. 

In Genesis 1:3 God said "let there be light" , before this is a statement that God created the heavens and earth and the earth was formless. I take it that this first light is not coming from the sun but from God Himself. This light was intantenously created( ...and then there was light.) much like the description of the light-energy in the big bang theory. Hence the similaties between the two. While scientists believe that there was "nothing" before the light, while the other believe a supreme being outside time and space caused the light into existense. There is a fundamental law called the law of cause and effect which applies to everything right? Even all our HT gears were created or made by someone, thus it would be inconcievable to think that the more complex and vast universe had no cause whatsoever.

I understand where you're coming from. But the big bang theory doesn't prove there is a god because it doesn't account for anything the happens before it. There is no event, no nothing before it. And there's only 1 universe.

Now, there have been concepts of multiverses, each formed by it's own big bang. Dito, pwedeng isingit yung existence ng god dyan. But not with the original big bang theory.