Author Topic: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion  (Read 164259 times)

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Offline Moks007

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #870 on: Nov 07, 2014 at 09:26 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obstetrical_dilemma

The obstetrical dilemma began when human ancestors started to evolve into a bipedal creature. Because humans are the only obligately bipedal primates, meaning their body shape requires them to only use two legs, major alterations had to be made to the shape of the female pelvis.[1] A number of structures in the body changed size, proportion, or location in order to accommodate bipedal locomotion and allow a person to stand upright and face forward. To help support the upper body, a number of structural changes were made to the pelvis. The ilial pelvic bone shifted forward and broadened, while the ischial pelvic bone shrank, narrowing the pelvic canal. These changes were occurring at the same time as humans were developing larger craniums. Therefore, in order to successfully undergo childbirth, the infant must be born earlier and earlier, thereby making the child increasingly developmentally premature.[4] The concept of the infant being born underdeveloped is called altriciality. Other ways of evolving to cope with bipedalism and larger craniums were also important such as neonatal rotation of the shoulders to allow the infant to fit through the canal, shorter gestation length which allows the infant to be born smaller, assistance with birth, and a malleable neonatal head which is softer and leaves the birth canal more easily.


what is their proof that we human ancestors started to evolve to bipedal creatures? Kasi the problem with evolution is they say 1 + 1 = 2. Then after a few years "mukha 3 yun answer ah..sige 1 + 2 = 3
They are not so sure.

From your link.

This change seems to have evolved over time because this dilemma does not seem to pose a problem for our most recent relatives, non-human primates, who still manage to give birth with little difficulty.

Human ancestors seemed to originally give birth in a similar way that non-human primates do. Most primates have neonatal heads that are close in size to the mother’s birth canal.


ito sa bipedalism

There are at least twelve distinct hypotheses as to how and why bipedalism evolved in humans, and also some debate as to when.


Recent studies of 4.4 million years old Ardipithecus ramidus suggest bipedalism, it is thus possible that bipedalism evolved very early in homininae and was reduced in chimpanzee and gorilla when they became more specialized. According to Richard Dawkins in his book "The Ancestor's Tale", chimps and bonobos are descended from Australopithecus gracile type species while gorillas are descended from Paranthropus. These apes may have once been bipedal, but then lost this ability when they were forced back into an arboreal habitat, presumably by those australopithecines who eventually became us (see Homininae). Early homininaes such as Ardipithecus ramidus may have possessed an arboreal type of bipedalism that later independently evolved towards knuckle-walking in chimpanzees and gorillas[48] and towards efficient walking and running in modern humans (see figure). It is also proposed that one cause of Neanderthal extinction was a less efficient running.


Offline Moks007

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #871 on: Nov 07, 2014 at 09:36 PM »
Isa pang tanong, sigurado ka ba na simula noong unang panahon walang nabago sa katawan naten? Pinagaralan mo ba lahat ng parte ng katawan ng lahat ng tao noon at ngayon???


I don't need to study human anatomy or investigate it from the early ages because nga I believe in creation. I believe God created Adam and Eve and eventually multiplied. Now whether Adam and Eve looked like apes, that I can't answer because nga meron ako Faith na, God created mankind in his own image. Genesis 1:27.


Offline Moks007

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #872 on: Nov 07, 2014 at 09:45 PM »
Do you really believe that 200 years is a long time? Especially for a insignificant(universally speaking) specie like us?

That's why I'm asking you, From your estimate or studies (if you are in the scientific field) at what period of time or how many years ago did modern humans appear? I read somewhere 50,000 years ago? Tama ba?
« Last Edit: Nov 07, 2014 at 10:18 PM by Moks007 »

Offline RU9

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #873 on: Nov 07, 2014 at 11:31 PM »
The body's immune system for example is very similar to a nation's armed forces. In both cases when an "invading force" is present it responds accordingly to identify, mobilize a response and neutralize the threat. In both cases an "intelligent agent" must be present to have a coherent responds.

The reverse always enters my mind. Evolution has perfected the immune system... etc, that is why we are alive and rational to create god.

Offline RU9

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #874 on: Nov 07, 2014 at 11:46 PM »
I can identify who my great grandparents, grandparents, parents, 1st, 2nd and 3rd cousins and siblings in our geneology based on records, pictures and other means. But to say that this exactly the same as evolution is a stretch to say the least!

Based on the evolution diagram or evogram as they fondly call it.....There should be MORE common ancestors for each of the supposed branch in the family right?
But where are these supposed "common ancestors" for fish and reptiles, reptiles and birds....and so on.

Sa ngayon Parang Fill in Blanks.....they just speculate that  they will eventually  find these common ancestors!
Not very scientific.....

My term is consistent (in agreement).  Where did you get "to say that this exactly the same as evolution?"

Critics of evolution sometimes charge that scientists don't have fossils that show the transitions between major evolutionary features and the origins of new adaptations, but that is a misrepresentation. We don't have fossils of every extinct organism, but we do have fossils from many, many extinct organisms — enough to piece together the stories of some very important evolutionary transitions. And we are learning more every day. All of the examples that we'll show you here could not have been explained in this detail twenty years ago. The fossils that we've discovered in just the last few decades have thrown new light onto these transitions. The longer we search for fossils and study them, the more detailed our knowledge of past life becomes — and the more confident we can be in that knowledge.

By the way, science is defined as  knowledge about or study of the natural world based on facts learned through experiments and observation.

Offline RU9

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #875 on: Nov 08, 2014 at 12:19 AM »
That's exactly what I meant. 
 
You read the credentials, assumed that Motani cannot possibly be wrong, then immediately concluded that this is unquestionable evidence of evolution.
 
You did not see any picture of the discovered fossil.  You do not know if there is sufficient morphological basis for saying that the fossil is amphibious.  Yet you immediately accept his word as unimpeachable truth.
 

In issues like this one has to look for credibility.

You are accusing me of not seeing a picture, believing without sufficient info.--- without any basis.
Bawal iyan sa law, Atty.

It is not my fault if you missed the the link in the rappler article.

Here:



Montani took the above picture.





The incompleteness of the fossil record obscures the origin of many of the more derived clades of vertebrates. One such group is the Ichthyopterygia, a clade of obligatory marine reptiles that appeared in the Early Triassic epoch, without any known intermediates. Here we describe a basal ichthyosauriform from the upper Lower Triassic (about 248 million years ago) of China, whose primitive skeleton indicates possible amphibious habits. It is smaller than ichthyopterygians and had unusually large flippers that probably allowed limited terrestrial locomotion. It also retained characteristics of terrestrial diapsid reptiles, including a short snout and body trunk. Unlike more-derived ichthyosauriforms, it was probably a suction feeder. The new species supports the sister-group relationships between ichthyosauriforms and Hupehsuchia4,

Offline dodie

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #876 on: Nov 08, 2014 at 12:32 AM »
That's why I'm asking you, From your estimate or studies (if you are in the scientific field) at what period of time or how many years ago did modern humans appear? I read somewhere 50,000 years ago? Tama ba?

you are prescisely right boss, ang burden of proof ay sa mga hindi naniniwala sa creation..... i just dont know why they are throwing all the questions on those who belive in it. eh magical nga. yung knila ang hindi so dapat sila ang magpaliwanag ng maayos para tayo maniwala o maging kapanipaniwala yung standpoint nila. iisa lang naman ang question sa creation, if you dont believe that there is no higher being that created this universe then its over. we question evolution because we think that whats happening around us is not based on simple mutation....
WCH CM U?

Offline RU9

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #877 on: Nov 08, 2014 at 12:47 AM »
ru9 question lang, let's say year 1 up to now year 2014, we as human beings looks the same right? Our inside organs are the same? So when will we evolve to a different kind? Maybe to a hulk? Aquaman? Maleficent? Four kidneys, four eyes? Billion years dapat? or human evolution is not like that? Or From now we will just have longer legs, fingers, private parts?

This is better explained here:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/parmyolson/2013/06/07/how-the-human-face-might-look-in-100000-years/
http://www.stoa.org.uk/topics/evolution/how-will-evolution-change-humans.html

« Last Edit: Nov 08, 2014 at 01:01 AM by RU9 »

Offline RU9

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #878 on: Nov 08, 2014 at 01:05 AM »
I believe God created Adam and Eve and eventually multiplied.

nasaan ang "tree of life" ngayon?

Offline RU9

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #879 on: Nov 08, 2014 at 01:08 AM »
That's why I'm asking you, From your estimate or studies (if you are in the scientific field) at what period of time or how many years ago did modern humans appear? I read somewhere 50,000 years ago? Tama ba?

Close..

Man’s Genome From 45,000 Years Ago Is Reconstructed

Scientists have reconstructed the genome of a man who lived 45,000 years ago, by far the oldest genetic record ever obtained from modern humans. The research, published on Wednesday in the journal Nature, provided new clues to the expansion of modern humans from Africa about 60,000 years ago, when they moved into Europe and Asia.

And the genome, extracted from a fossil thighbone found in Siberia, added strong support to a provocative hypothesis: Early humans interbred with Neanderthals.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/23/science/research-humans-interbred-with-neanderthals.html


Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #880 on: Nov 08, 2014 at 01:39 AM »
Hi atty. na misunderstand ata yun question ko hehe. I was in a rush kanina and did not get to proofread. For me kasi, evolution is something that gets better and better. We don't change to something worse than we are hundreds of years ago. My question is in relation to the response to tempter. Some animals can take care of themselves when they are born. We humans cannot. We need somebody to take care of us. So if we evolve to something better, assuming we were apes or any animal before (which can take care of themselves when born), why is it now we can't take care of ourselves (newborn)?

Unless their argument is of course,

Example lang
Algae evolve to ape (or any animal that can take care of themselves when born) then which evolve to humans. Because I don't believe when our human ancestors are newly born during that time, they will be able to take care of themselves.

 
Thanks for the clarification.
 
Pero ganon din ang point ko sir.  Kung nagkaroon man ng degeneration, that would still not be enough to show inconsistency or conflict in evolution theory.
 
Evolution refers to a change resulting in a genetic difference.  The change need not be more complex or more advanced; it can sometimes be less complex or more primitive and still count as evolution rather than devolution. 
 
In your example, human babies may require a longer time to mature, but if this longer period before maturity results in a more intelligent life form upon reaching maturity, then over-all, progressive pa rin ang naging development.
 
« Last Edit: Nov 08, 2014 at 03:02 AM by barrister »

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #881 on: Nov 08, 2014 at 01:43 AM »
In issues like this one has to look for credibility.

You are accusing me of not seeing a picture, believing without sufficient info.--- without any basis.
Bawal iyan sa law, Atty.

It is not my fault if you missed the the link in the rappler article.

Here:

 
If you did see the picture, then I admit that I was wrong in saying that you did not.
 
But the fact remains that, as I said previously, even assuming that the fossil was correctly interpreted, Motani only said that it was transitional from aquatic ichtyosaur to amphibious ichthyosaur. 

In other words, the ichthyosaur remained an ichthyosaur.  Still not evidence of evolution.
 
 
 
 
==================================
 
 
 
I notice you were eager to reply to one part of my post, yet content to ignore other parts:
 
 
 
What is clear to me is that you thought it was ridiculous for a reptile to turn into a bird, until I pointed out that it was in fact part of evolution theory.

So now, you are saying that you agree that reptiles evolved to birds.

Don't just agree without thinking. Tell us why scientists say reptiles evolved to birds, and I'll tell you why they are wrong.
« Last Edit: Nov 08, 2014 at 09:08 AM by barrister »

Offline Nelson de Leon

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #882 on: Nov 08, 2014 at 07:43 AM »
nasaan ang "tree of life" ngayon?


Genesis 3
 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Nasa Garden of Eden pa din, pero matindi ang bantay sir.  :)

Offline Moks007

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #883 on: Nov 08, 2014 at 08:49 AM »

 
Thanks for the clarification.
 
Pero ganon din ang point ko sir.  Kung nagkaroon man ng degeneration, that would still not be enough to show inconsistency or conflict in evolution theory.
 
Evolution refers to a change resulting in a genetic difference.  The change need not be more complex or more advanced; it can sometimes be less complex or more primitive and still count as evolution rather than devolution. 
 
In your example, human babies may require a longer time to mature, but if this longer period before maturity results in a more intelligent life form upon reaching maturity, then over-all, progressive pa rin ang naging development.
 

Ah yes totally agree with you.


Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #884 on: Nov 08, 2014 at 09:15 AM »
Ah yes totally agree with you.

 
Pero hindi pa rin totoo ang evolution...  ;)
 
 
Si sir RU9 nga, sabi "magic" daw yung reptile na naging ibon.
 
 
Nung sinita ko, binawi... joke lang daw...  :D
« Last Edit: Nov 08, 2014 at 09:37 AM by barrister »

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #885 on: Nov 08, 2014 at 09:17 AM »
"The reverse always enters my mind. Evolution has perfected the immune system... etc, that is why we are alive and rational to create god."

On the contrary the immune system is not perfect. If it where then there would be no diseases, medicine, wala sana kamin trabaho ngayon!
It is a complex, but specific procceses of mechanism whose primary work is protection of the organism. It is a learning/ adapting mechanism that responds to its environment. This mechanism would sometimes breakdown or be overwhelm causing diseases liks cancer, hiv and other infection. In giving vaccination or immunization we are actually inducing the body to produce the immunity. If our cells did not have these genetic codes or proteins in the first place then no amount of vaccination will produce immunity. If you don't want to call this "intelligent agent" thats fine. Fact is though without this system already in place and responding to whatever is attacking it then the organism would not survive.

In other words the immune system should "evolve" a lot faster than host for the host to survive! Thats not the darwinian mechanism of gradual change through time. Like i said it like having your very own armed forces inside to protect you! Without the coordinated mechanism that will have to work , the whole system breaks down.
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Offline bumblebee

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #886 on: Nov 08, 2014 at 09:40 AM »

 
Pero hindi pa rin totoo ang evolution...  ;)
 
 
Si sir RU9 nga, sabi "magic" daw yung reptile na naging

 
Nung sinita ko, binawi... joke lang daw...  :D

Magic naman talaga.

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #887 on: Nov 08, 2014 at 09:58 AM »
I just saw Interstellar last night.
 
Interesting premise, but I didn't like it.  Maybe the science buffs would like it, though.
 
Sir bumblebee, baka mahilig ka sa astrophysics, you might like Interstellar.  Spectacular visuals.  It's still just science fiction, but its "science" is still solid.  Warning --- it's a long movie.
 
« Last Edit: Nov 08, 2014 at 10:05 AM by barrister »

Offline bumblebee

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #888 on: Nov 08, 2014 at 10:06 AM »
Thanks, but I don't think we can travel back in time.
« Last Edit: Nov 08, 2014 at 10:16 AM by bumblebee »

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #889 on: Nov 08, 2014 at 10:21 AM »
Ganon ba sir?  Akala ko kasi hard-core science buff ka.
 
Consultant daw dito si Kip Thorne (theoretical physicist).  Kaya merong space-time-gravity in general relativity theory.

Offline bumblebee

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #890 on: Nov 08, 2014 at 10:28 AM »
Hindi naman ako hardcore. Travel to the future, I can imagine that. But back in time, no. Maybe it's possible but there isn't enough science yet to support it.

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #891 on: Nov 08, 2014 at 10:42 AM »
Genesis 3
 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Nasa Garden of Eden pa din, pero matindi ang bantay sir.  :)

 
Sir, kung may bantay, bakit hindi na natin makita yung bantay, yung flaming sword at yung binabantayan?
 
Wala nang bantay yon ngayon, kasi wala na ring babantayan.
 
The great flood of Noah's time destroyed the world, including the garden of Eden.
« Last Edit: Nov 08, 2014 at 10:29 PM by barrister »

Offline leomarley

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #892 on: Nov 08, 2014 at 12:21 PM »
Hindi naman ako hardcore. Travel to the future, I can imagine that. But back in time, no. Maybe it's possible but there isn't enough science yet to support it.

theoretically, it is possible but in actuality, it is not. you need to attain the speed of light because at that rate time does not exist to you and you can move forward and backward in time but the equation E=MC2 tells us it is impossible unless you're Hiro Nakamura or The Flash.

Offline dpogs

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #893 on: Nov 08, 2014 at 01:00 PM »
theoretically, it is possible but in actuality, it is not. you need to attain the speed of light because at that rate time does not exist to you and you can move forward and backward in time but the equation E=MC2 tells us it is impossible unless you're Hiro Nakamura or The Flash.

parang evolution --->>>> theoritically, it is possible... but in actuality, it is not. :):):)
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline bumblebee

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #894 on: Nov 08, 2014 at 01:11 PM »
theoretically, it is possible but in actuality, it is not. you need to attain the speed of light because at that rate time does not exist to you and you can move forward and backward in time but the equation E=MC2 tells us it is impossible unless you're Hiro Nakamura or The Flash.

Still can't imagine it though. Maybe see the past but not be in it. Note that I'm referring to our reality's past and not another reality or universe.
« Last Edit: Nov 08, 2014 at 01:25 PM by bumblebee »

Offline Tempter

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #895 on: Nov 08, 2014 at 06:47 PM »
parang evolution --->>>> theoritically, it is possible... but in actuality, it is not. :):):)

Para ding Creation... ;D
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

Offline Tempter

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #896 on: Nov 08, 2014 at 06:56 PM »
I don't need to study human anatomy or investigate it from the early ages because nga I believe in creation. I believe God created Adam and Eve and eventually multiplied. Now whether Adam and Eve looked like apes, that I can't answer because nga meron ako Faith na, God created mankind in his own image. Genesis 1:27.



I rest my case... ;D
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #897 on: Nov 08, 2014 at 07:57 PM »
My term is consistent (in agreement).  Where did you get "to say that this exactly the same as evolution?"

Critics of evolution sometimes charge that scientists don't have fossils that show the transitions between major evolutionary features and the origins of new adaptations, but that is a misrepresentation. We don't have fossils of every extinct organism, but we do have fossils from many, many extinct organisms — enough to piece together the stories of some very important evolutionary transitions. And we are learning more every day. All of the examples that we'll show you here could not have been explained in this detail twenty years ago. The fossils that we've discovered in just the last few decades have thrown new light onto these transitions. The longer we search for fossils and study them, the more detailed our knowledge of past life becomes — and the more confident we can be in that knowledge.

By the way, science is defined as  knowledge about or study of the natural world based on facts learned through experiments and observation.
I was referring to the "family tree/evolution" graphics you posted to illustrate that human family tree has the same dynamics as evolution. When the dynamics and mechanisms in place between the two are different and therefore not correct to imply that just because it might be true in the family tree it will be true with evolution.

Speaking of science, in the medical field we make use of EBM w/c means (evidence based medicine). This a method of collating all relevant, research, experinents, journals to come up with updated treatment protocol. We classify data as level of reliabilty and relevance. Level A is the highest most reliable with B,C, D in descending fashion. Now if i make use of this classification on evolution, i would place the current evidence as Level C or D
« Last Edit: Nov 08, 2014 at 08:13 PM by docelmo »
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Offline dpogs

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #898 on: Nov 08, 2014 at 09:17 PM »
Para ding Creation... ;D

there is no such "theory of creation" :):) nalagyan lang ng "theory of" dahil sa idea ng evolution...

creation --->>> theoritically impossible, but in actuality, it happened. :):):)
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #899 on: Nov 08, 2014 at 09:38 PM »
Tapos na ba tayo sa fossils? 
 
DNA naman.  Next time, ibang aspect, like embryology.
 
Papatunayan natin na kahit saan sila pumunta, mintis pa rin sila.
 
 
 
=======================================
 
 
 
Chimps, Humans 96 Percent the Same, Gene Study Finds
Scientists have sequenced the genome of the chimpanzee and found

that humans are 96 percent similar to the great ape species.
Stefan Lovgren
for National Geographic News
August 31, 2005
 
"Darwin wasn't just provocative in saying that we descend from the apes—he didn't go far enough," said Frans de Waal, a primate scientist at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia. "We are apes in every way, from our long arms and tailless bodies to our habits and temperament."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/08/0831_050831_chimp_genes.html
 
 
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