Author Topic: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion  (Read 172372 times)

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Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1050 on: Jan 05, 2015 at 09:14 AM »
What the data suggests? Those are not even data to suggest that there's a designer present. You're just interpreting it as evidence for an intelligent designer. Just because you can't move one factor a smudge to the left or to the right doesn't mean there's an intelligent designer. I'm not saying there isn't but you can't be sure that there is simply because of that. Same as how atheist say there isn't a creator simply because there's no data for it. From the billions and billions of galaxies out there, you really think that we're the only ones? That's what that video suggests.

To answer your question, yes it can. And no matter how small the chances are, as long as there is a chance for life to develop, life will develop. With or without the help of an intelligent designer.

So what does the data suggests to you? What does all those precise measurements that governs the movements  and behavior of the universe suggests? And how did this numbers happen, by chance? Let’s consider for a moment that you are correct. How do propose all the parameters (200 of them so far as the article mentioned) came into existence? Trial and error? Because you as you mentioned “can’t move one factor a smudge” is evidence of precision and order. Based on our common experience…what does precision and order suggest? I can only think of one thing….a Mind!

What we have now in terms of “evidence”  from the precise order of the universe to the emergence of life are more than enough conclude there is an immaterial transcendent cause! This cause is the best explanation for the order we see in the universe. This cause must be outside time and space!
 
God appearing in front of everybody is NOT a guarantee that all the people will believe Him…..because he gave us a wonderful gift….Free will! That is why we have the freedom to choose to believe or not. He gave us is a universe to explore and discover His handiwork!

Can the universe create itself or for that matter can life create life? The probability of a life supporting environment to exist is less than 1 chance in 10 282nd power!
The number is so staggering that it defies imagination……and yet here we are!!! Existing!!!

Thus if you believe in random chance of life appearing spontaneously on its own, then I must commend you because your faith in Chance is way more bigger than my faith in God.
Denon/ GoldenEar Technology/Onkyo/Optoma/Sansui/SVS

Offline leomarley

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1051 on: Jan 05, 2015 at 09:44 AM »
So what does the data suggests to you? What does all those precise measurements that governs the movements  and behavior of the universe suggests? And how did this numbers happen, by chance? Let’s consider for a moment that you are correct. How do propose all the parameters (200 of them so far as the article mentioned) came into existence? Trial and error? Because you as you mentioned “can’t move one factor a smudge” is evidence of precision and order. Based on our common experience…what does precision and order suggest? I can only think of one thing….a Mind!

What we have now in terms of “evidence”  from the precise order of the universe to the emergence of life are more than enough conclude there is an immaterial transcendent cause! This cause is the best explanation for the order we see in the universe. This cause must be outside time and space!
 
God appearing in front of everybody is NOT a guarantee that all the people will believe Him…..because he gave us a wonderful gift….Free will! That is why we have the freedom to choose to believe or not. He gave us is a universe to explore and discover His handiwork!

Can the universe create itself or for that matter can life create life? The probability of a life supporting environment to exist is less than 1 chance in 10 282nd power!
The number is so staggering that it defies imagination……and yet here we are!!! Existing!!!

Thus if you believe in random chance of life appearing spontaneously on its own, then I must commend you because your faith in Chance is way more bigger than my faith in God.


as i've said, it may be a higher supernatural being and it may be not. But i'm not as quick as you to conclude and interpret that those numbers are parameters set by a being in the sky! it is not enough evidence to come to that conclusion.

Long before, some humans thought that there are no other lands then sea faring made them discover different islands and continents. We thought that there is only this planet then soon discovered other planets in our solar system. Then we thought that our sun is the only one in the sky then figured out that the stars are also other suns and that we're part of the Milky Way Galaxy. We then find out that there are also other galaxies our there and we are just one part of a group of galaxies and that group of galaxies are just another part of cluster of galaxies, so on and so fort.

It is not far fetched or ridiculous to think that there are other Universes apart from our own that have different sets of physics laws and theories. that alone could be a reason for having those sets of data that you interpret as parameters by an "intelligent designer".

There is even this one theory that our Universe is just a holographic simulation. That also could be a reason for having those data. But to say that it was created because of the supernatural God in the Bible is too far fetched. Right now we have a very tiny grasp on our understanding of our Universe and i'm not inclined to believe in a scripture explaining how we came about made millennia ago by persons/people who understands even less than we do now.

Unlike some overtly religious person, i don't just believe in mysticism and myths and interpret things to fit whatever belief system one holds. i believe in the evidence that a theory holds. if an evidence comes out that overturns a theory then that theory will be disregarded.

To answer your question, yes it is possible that it is simply due to chance as it is how the Quantum Theory works.
« Last Edit: Jan 05, 2015 at 01:48 PM by leomarley »

Offline bumblebee

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1052 on: Jan 05, 2015 at 09:47 AM »
Typical ID/creationist argument. I can't explain therefore, God.

They are also convinced that the universe was created for humanity. They can't accept that we are insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1053 on: Jan 05, 2015 at 07:53 PM »
as i've said, it may be a higher supernatural being and it may be not. But i'm not as quick as you to conclude and interpret that those numbers are parameters set by a being in the sky! it is not enough evidence to come to that conclusion.

Long before, some humans thought that there are no other lands then sea faring made them discover different islands and continents. We thought that there is only this planet then soon discovered other planets in our solar system. Then we thought that our sun is the only one in the sky then figured out that the stars are also other suns and that we're part of the Milky Way Galaxy. We then find out that there are also other galaxies our there and we are just one part of a group of galaxies and that group of galaxies are just another part of cluster of galaxies, so on and so fort.

It is not far fetched or ridiculous to think that there are other Universes apart from our own that have different sets of physics laws and theories. that alone could be a reason for having those sets of data that you interpret as parameters by an "intelligent designer".

There is even this one theory that our Universe is just a holographic simulation. That also could be a reason for having those data. But to say that it was created because of the supernatural God in the Bible is too far fetched. Right now we have a very tiny grasp on our understanding of our Universe and i'm not inclined to believe in a scripture explaining how we came about made millennia ago by persons/people who understands even less than we do now.

Unlike some overtly religious person, i don't just believe in mysticism and myths and interpret things to fit whatever belief system one holds. i believe in the evidence that a theory holds. if an evidence comes out that overturns a theory then that theory will be disregarded.

To answer your question, yes it is possible that it is simply due to chance as it is how the Quantum Theory works.
My understanding of the information i've gathered led me to think that those parameters were best explained by design and not due to necessity nor chance....I would not characterize that as "quick to conclude".

On the other hand, you say it's not far fetch to think of a Multiverse or Chance as the answer for the parameters but at same time you readily reject the third option that of design. Because the idea of design or a designer is too far fetch??? So you draw the line on this "too far fetch" idea, that makes your claim of objectively looking at evidence flawed since you've already taken out the other possibility that the universe was designed...Here is the article that lists all the parameters you that say happened by chance.

Probability Estimate  for Attaining the Necessary Characteristics for a Life Support Body

Notes: Estimate of dependency and longevity factors are accounted for at the end of the list. References to relevant science research papers and books also follow the list. The definition used here for a planet is broad enough to include a large satellite orbiting another planet. For reasons why satellites in general and starless planets are not suitable candidates for a life-support body see Lights in the Sky and Little Green Men by Hugh Ross, Kenneth Samples, and Mark Clark (Colorado Springs, CO: NavPress, 2002), pp. 39-41.
Parameter   Probability that feature will fall in the required range for physical life

local abundance and distribution of dark matter
0.1
relative abundances of different exotic mass  particles
0.01
decay rates of different exotic mass particles
0.05
density of quasars   0.1
density of giant galaxies in the early universe   0.1
galaxy cluster size   0.1
galaxy cluster density
0.1
galaxy cluster location   0.1
galaxy size   0.1
galaxy type   0.1
galaxy mass distribution
0.2
size of galactic central bulge   0.2
galaxy location   0.1
variability of local dwarf galaxy absorption rate
0.1
quantity of galactic dust
0.1
giant star density in galaxy   0.1
frequency of gamma ray bursts in galaxy   0.05
star location relative to galactic center   0.2
star distance from corotation circle of galaxy   0.005
ratio of inner dark halo mass to stellar mass for galaxy   0.1
star distance from closest spiral arm   0.1
z-axis extremes of star’s orbit   0.02
iodine quantity in crust   0.1
magnesium in crust   0.4
manganese quantity in crust   0.1
nickel quantity in crust   0.1
rate of decline in volcanic activity   0.1
location of volcanic eruptions   0.1
continental relief   0.1
viscosity at Earth core boundaries   0.01
viscosity of lithosphere   0.2
thickness of mid-mantle boundary   0.1
rate of sedimentary loading at crustal subduction zones   0.1
biomass to comet infall ratio   0.01
regularity of cometary infall   0.1
number, intensity, and location of hurricanes   0.02
intensity of primordial cosmic superwinds   0.05
number of smoking quasars   0.05
formation of large terrestrial planet in the presence of two or more gas giant planets   0.1
orbital stability of large terrestrial planet in the presence of two or more gas giant planets   0.01
total mass of Oort Cloud objects   0.2
timing of star formation peak for the galaxy   0.2
.....the parameter total 322,

Probability for occurrence of all 322 parameters ≈ 10-388
dependency factors estimate ≈ 10-96
longevity requirements estimate ≈ 1014
Probability for occurrence of all 322 parameters ≈ 10-304
Maximum possible number of life support bodies in universe ≈ 1022
Thus, less than 1 chance in 10282(million trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion) exists that even one such life-support body would occur anywhere in the universe without invoking divine miracles.
Denon/ GoldenEar Technology/Onkyo/Optoma/Sansui/SVS

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1054 on: Jan 05, 2015 at 08:06 PM »
They are also convinced that the universe was created for humanity. They can't accept that we are insignificant in the grand scheme of things.
On the contrary, I am humbled that I was created. The universe was NOT made for humanity. It was made so that humanity can explore and use mind and intelligence and discover for himself His handiwork, and also gave us freewill to think whether to accept or reject His existence in the things that are made...in the course of our continuous study of the things around us.
« Last Edit: Jan 05, 2015 at 08:22 PM by docelmo »
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Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1055 on: Jan 05, 2015 at 08:50 PM »
The author is certainly NOT an ID/Creationist proponent far it, read the last paragraph.

Mind and Cosmos
by Thomas Nagel



"So the physical sciences, in spite of their extraordinary success in their own domain, necessarily leave an important aspect of nature unexplained.  Further, since the mental arises through the development of animal organisms, the nature of those organisms cannot be fully understood through the physical sciences alone.  Finally, since the long process of biological evolution is responsible for the existence of conscious organisms, and since a purely physical process cannot explain their existence, it follows that biological evolution must be more than just a physical process, and the theory of evolution, if it is to explain the existence of conscious life, must become more than just a physical theory.

This means that the scientific outlook, if it aspires to a more complete understanding of nature, must expand to include theories capable of explaining the appearance in the universe of mental phenomena and the subjective points of view in which they occur – theories of a different type from any we have seen so far.

There are two ways of resisting this conclusion, each of which has two versions. The first way is to deny that the mental is an irreducible aspect of reality, either (a) by holding that the mental can be identified with some aspect of the physical, such as patterns of behavior or patterns of neural activity, or (b) by denying that the mental is part of reality at all, being some kind of illusion (but then, illusion to whom?). The second way is to deny that the mental requires a scientific explanation through some new conception of the natural order, because either (c) we can regard it as a mere fluke or accident, an unexplained extra property of certain physical organisms – or else (d) we can believe that it has an explanation, but one that belongs not to science but to theology, in other words that mind has been added to the physical world in the course of evolution by divine intervention.


All four of these positions have their adherents.  I believe the wide popularity among philosophers and scientists of (a), the outlook of psychophysical reductionism, is due not only to the great prestige of the physical sciences but to the feeling that this is the best defense against the dreaded (d), the theistic interventionist outlook. But someone who finds (a) and (b) self-evidently false and (c) completely implausible need not accept (d), because a scientific understanding of nature need not be limited to a physical theory of the objective spatio-temporal order. It makes sense to seek an expanded form of understanding that includes the mental but that is still scientific — i.e. still a theory of the immanent order of nature.
That seems to me the most likely solution. Even though the theistic outlook, in some versions, is consistent with the available scientific evidence, I don’t believe it, and am drawn instead to a naturalistic, though non-materialist, alternative. Mind, I suspect, is not an inexplicable accident or a divine and anomalous gift but a basic aspect of nature that we will not understand until we transcend the built-in limits of contemporary scientific orthodoxy. I would add that even some theists might find this acceptable; since they could maintain that God is ultimately responsible for such an expanded natural order, as they believe he is for the laws of physics."
________________________________________
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Offline leomarley

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1056 on: Jan 05, 2015 at 09:36 PM »
On the other hand, you say it's not far fetch to think of a Multiverse or Chance as the answer for the parameters but at same time you readily reject the third option that of design. Because the idea of design or a designer is too far fetch??? So you draw the line on this "too far fetch" idea, that makes your claim of objectively looking at evidence flawed since you've already taken out the other possibility that the universe was designed...Here is the article that lists all the parameters you that say happened by chance.

i did not say that a designer is a far fetched idea. the thing that's far fetched to me is that if there is a designer, i don't think it's the one that they've portrayed in the Bible or whatever "holy" scriptures you subscribe to.

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1057 on: Jan 05, 2015 at 11:38 PM »
Exactly the same as Dawkins...  :D
 
 

Dawkins interview from the documentary, Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed (2008):
 
 
 
Ben Stein: What do think is the possibility that there then, intelligent design might turn out to be the answer to some issues in genetics... or in evolution?

Richard Dawkins: Well... it could come about in the following way: it could be that uh, at some earlier time somewhere in the universe a civilization e-evolved... by probably by some kind of Darwinian means to a very very high level of technology and designed a form of life that they seeded onto... perhaps this... this planet. Um, now that is a possibility. And uh, an intriguing possibility. And I suppose it's possible that you might find evidence for that if you look at the um, at the detail... details of our chemistry molecular biology you might find a signature of some sort of designer.

Ben Stein: [voice over] Wait a second. Richard Dawkins thought intelligent design might be a legitimate pursuit?

Richard Dawkins: Um, and that designer could well be a higher intelligence from elsewhere in the universe. But that higher intelligence would itself would have to come about by some explicable or ultimately explicable process. It couldn't have just jumped into existence spontaneously. That's the point.

Ben Stein: [voice over] So professor Dawkins was not against intelligent design, just certain types of designers. Such as God.
 
 
YouTube: "Richard Dawkins admits to Intelligent Design"
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoncJBrrdQ8

Offline dodie

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1058 on: Jan 05, 2015 at 11:48 PM »
love this line doc...... :)

"the probability of life supporting environment to exist is less that 1 chance in 10 282power."
.......Your faith(evolutionist)in chance is much greater than my faith (creationist)in god!! ;D ;D

you might not convince those who have a hard line stance regarding our origin based on inteligent design, but al least you're showing us that your argument has more weight and intellect than their reasonings combined! ;D ;D
WCH CM U?

Offline leomarley

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1059 on: Jan 06, 2015 at 12:33 AM »
love this line doc...... :)

"the probability of life supporting environment to exist is less that 1 chance in 10 282power."
.......Your faith(evolutionist)in chance is much greater than my faith (creationist)in god!! ;D ;D

you might not convince those who have a hard line stance regarding our origin based on inteligent design, but al least you're showing us that your argument has more weight and intellect than their reasonings combined! ;D ;D

again, i'm not against the possibility of a designer. what i'm saying is, i don't think that designer is the one described in scriptures. the designer that's pointed out in the data, whose able to set parameters for life to exist, seems like a logical being. the one in the Bible isn't.

Offline dpogs

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1060 on: Jan 06, 2015 at 01:55 AM »
:)
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline Tempter

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1061 on: Jan 06, 2015 at 11:29 AM »
Still the question:

Who made the Creator? Or who is the Creator of our Creator? And who is the Creator of the Creator of the our Creator...nth ;D

THAT IS THE POOOOIIIINNNTTTTT....  >:D

I bet someone would answer... THAT IS WHAT YOU CALL FAITH... ;D
« Last Edit: Jan 06, 2015 at 11:30 AM by Tempter »
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

Offline bumblebee

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1062 on: Jan 06, 2015 at 11:59 AM »

Probability for occurrence of all 322 parameters ≈ 10-388
dependency factors estimate ≈ 10-96
longevity requirements estimate ≈ 1014
Probability for occurrence of all 322 parameters ≈ 10-304
Maximum possible number of life support bodies in universe ≈ 1022
Thus, less than 1 chance in 10282(million trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion) exists that even one such life-support body would occur anywhere in the universe without invoking divine miracles.


Imagine tomorrow. Or the next hour or minute. How many possibilities can you think of? Infinite possibilities. Yet, 1 of the infinite possibilities will happen. The probability? 1/infinity. That's approaching 0, or 0, to simplify things.

Wala naman problema sa intelligent design. The problem is that the designer would defy all the laws he created (aka magic) to give way for life. Sayang naman yung design, hindi ba?

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1063 on: Jan 06, 2015 at 02:36 PM »
again, i'm not against the possibility of a designer. what i'm saying is, i don't think that designer is the one described in scriptures. the designer that's pointed out in the data, whose able to set parameters for life to exist, seems like a logical being. the one in the Bible isn't.

This has always been my two-fold stand on this issue. On one side is ID where i assert that there is evidence of design in the universe and that this is a product of a mind. From the POV of ID it does not seek to identify this designer. But it asserts that life has an intelligent cause and this inference is a scientific claim. On the other side is creationism where i assert based on faith it is indeed the God of the Bible that is the cause. I believe that this two-sided approach is the most plausible answer to origin of the universe and life.

I won't insist on my belief in creation because.....that's my belief! But I would say that ID is a much better explanation for the origin of the universe and emergence of life  than mere chance...

While on the other hand you stop short by accepting the ID is possible, and that the designer is anything but the God of the bible. Because to you He is not logical compared to the possible designer of our world.

Let's suppose you're correct, what then do you suppose is nature and character of this other designer?

@ sir dodie, thanks :)
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Offline leomarley

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1064 on: Jan 06, 2015 at 02:50 PM »
Let's suppose you're correct, what then do you suppose is nature and character of this other designer?

that is a hard question and one that I'd not dare answer. we are bounded by 3 spatial and 1 time coordinate. Can you imagine a plane of existence higher than that? say 4, 5, 10, 11, 12 spatial coordinates? what more a being that exist in that realm?

Offline Tempter

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1065 on: Jan 06, 2015 at 03:06 PM »
OK then, say ID it is... how then this INTELLIGENCE sprouted?

POOF! It became KOKO KRUNCH??? ;D
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1066 on: Jan 06, 2015 at 07:04 PM »
 
The identity of the designer is irrelevant to Intelligent Design Theory. 
 
ID is saying that an intelligent agent exists.  But the identification of who that intelligent agent might be is beyond the scope of ID Theory.

 
« Last Edit: Jan 06, 2015 at 07:05 PM by barrister »

Offline Tempter

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1067 on: Jan 06, 2015 at 07:11 PM »

The identity of the designer is irrelevant to Intelligent Design Theory. 
 
ID is saying that an intelligent agent exists.  But the identification of who that intelligent agent might be is beyond the scope of ID Theory.

 

If that's the case, why question Evolution? Or argue with Evolutionist?

Since you're premise starts at 100 while evolution starts at zero???
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1068 on: Jan 06, 2015 at 07:19 PM »
If that's the case, why question Evolution? Or argue with Evolutionist?

My view is that the theory of evolution is founded on baseless speculation.
 
Do you believe that evolution is a fact?

Offline dodie

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1069 on: Jan 06, 2015 at 07:25 PM »
@ sir dodie, thanks :)

just giving credit to people, i think, has the intelligence to explain things without sarcasm. i just cant explain the thinking of some in trying to question the validity of certain issues on the notion that it will make a case about  their own personal standpoint. the burden of proof lies on both the proponents of this issue. it is not a question of, if the other side crumbles and then you win. there is also the burden of proof on you to prove that your claims is not as vague and improbable as the other one.
« Last Edit: Jan 06, 2015 at 07:30 PM by Dodie »
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Offline Tempter

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1070 on: Jan 06, 2015 at 08:36 PM »

My view is that the theory of evolution is founded on baseless speculation.
 
Do you believe that evolution is a fact?

Do you believe that the bible is a fact?
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1071 on: Jan 06, 2015 at 08:54 PM »
Do you believe that the bible is a fact?

I believe in the bible only as a matter of faith, not as a matter of scientific fact.  The bible cannot be proven as a fact.
 
Do you believe evolution is a fact?
« Last Edit: Jan 06, 2015 at 08:54 PM by barrister »

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1072 on: Jan 06, 2015 at 09:02 PM »
the burden of proof lies on both the proponents of this issue. it is not a question of, if the other side crumbles and then you win. there is also the burden of proof on you to prove that your claims is not as vague and improbable as the other one.

That is only true if both sides claim that their view is a fact.

If one side admits that his view is only a matter of faith, then he has no obligation to prove anything.

But if one side claims that his view is a matter fact, then he has the burden of proving it.
 
However, even if the evolutionist fails to prove that his view is factual, it does not necessarily mean that the creationist is automatically correct, since it's possible that they are both wrong.
« Last Edit: Jan 06, 2015 at 09:08 PM by barrister »

Offline majoe

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1073 on: Jan 06, 2015 at 09:11 PM »
Still the question:

Who made the Creator? Or who is the Creator of our Creator? And who is the Creator of the Creator of the our Creator...nth ;D

THAT IS THE POOOOIIIINNNTTTTT....  >:D

I bet someone would answer... THAT IS WHAT YOU CALL FAITH... ;D

first, the question is illogical. the premise or the claim of the theists is that God is eternal, therefore, He was not created.

if you want to make your question valid, you could have asked, "How God came into existence?". with this, maybe we can give you an answer in a philosophical view but in a scientific way, somehow. ;)

Offline majoe

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1074 on: Jan 06, 2015 at 09:17 PM »
that is a hard question and one that I'd not dare answer. we are bounded by 3 spatial and 1 time coordinate. Can you imagine a plane of existence higher than that? say 4, 5, 10, 11, 12 spatial coordinates? what more a being that exist in that realm?

the scriptures tell us that God is eternal/everlasting. He created time, heavens, and earth which is a 4-dimension plane of existence, our universe. since He is the one who created it, logically He is not bounded by it (time nor space). therefore, we can say that He is at different plane of existence, maybe much much  higher which is already unfathomable to us.

so, does the God of the bible still doesn't meet your criteria?
« Last Edit: Jan 06, 2015 at 09:54 PM by majoe »

Offline dodie

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1075 on: Jan 06, 2015 at 09:20 PM »

That is only true if both sides claim that their view is a fact.

If one side admits that his view is only a matter of faith, then he has no obligation to prove anything.

But if one side claims that his view is a matter fact, then he has the burden of proving it.
 
However, even if the evolutionist fails to prove that his view is factual, it does not necessarily mean that the creationist is automatically correct, since it's possible that they are both wrong.

i cuncur, atty!  :)

just hope that question asked be not answered by a question also....... ;)
WCH CM U?

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1076 on: Jan 06, 2015 at 09:27 PM »
In order for us to have an idea of the character of this designer, we must first have to understand his relationship to the universe and us. In other words, we must first know the relationship of the created and the creator. In doing so, we may then also answer that perennial question ”Who created the creator”.

First the relationship between the two, there is a fundamental principle in logic that I think governs this and that is the Principle or Law of Cause and Effect. This law states, that “Everything that has a beginning has a sufficient cause”, which could mean that something has NO beginning does not need a cause. This principle is so fundamental that “if I say that the computer you are using to read my post which was obviously made, simply appeared out of thin air, then you are right to think that I’m losing my mind!”

I think we are all in agreement that our universe had a beginning and that time and space started at this point in the distant past! Unless you believe it’s a hologram or Multiverse which creates a lot more questions than solution to the current mysteries of our observed universe.

Since the universe had a beginning in time, then it must have had a cause. A cause greater than the universe,  A cause outside time and space, A cause that is therefore timeless, A cause that has mind to establish the order of things, A Cause already existing “before” time and will exist “after” time.

So, the Creator does not need a cause and therefore has no creator. While a so-called creator that has a creator will be governed by the laws of universe, there won’t be an infinite creator of the creator since they are limited by time and space and is therefore finite….and that is not the definition of GOD.
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Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1077 on: Jan 06, 2015 at 09:49 PM »
If that's the case, why question Evolution? Or argue with Evolutionist?

Since you're premise starts at 100 while evolution starts at zero???
Because, ID is an inference to the presence of design and therefore directed emergence of life, while evolution is an unproven assumption of an undirected random emergence of life.
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Offline dpogs

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1078 on: Jan 06, 2015 at 11:20 PM »
scientific daw... eh paano naman nila maeexplain scientifically na living things sprout from non-living things :):):)
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline bumblebee

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1079 on: Jan 07, 2015 at 06:27 AM »
scientific daw... eh paano naman nila maeexplain scientifically na living things sprout from non-living things :):):)

Our bodies are made up of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and other elements, right?