Author Topic: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion  (Read 164286 times)

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Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1170 on: Jan 11, 2015 at 08:30 AM »
what i meant by man's creativity is that we "create stories" about a lot of things.....
Sir, you said "create a lot of things" which means physical material creation...well ok if "stories" is what you really meant.
What I am waiting for though is your well-documented evidence of evolution....or is this another product of man's ability to "create stories"?
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Offline tony

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1171 on: Jan 11, 2015 at 08:39 AM »
oh yes, men create stories....that is why "Faith" is created, so that one can just believe and not need to understand, just believe...

and i never mentioned anything about "evidence of evolution" i said that it can be documented as far as man witnessed it and from other scientific findings, i am not making claims about evolution, i merely stated it is possible to document it, and that is my belief...
« Last Edit: Jan 11, 2015 at 08:46 AM by tony »
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1172 on: Jan 11, 2015 at 10:10 AM »
oh yes, men create stories....that is why "Faith" is created, so that one can just believe and not need to understand, just believe...

and i never mentioned anything about "evidence of evolution" i said that it can be documented as far as man witnessed it and from other scientific findings, i am not making claims about evolution, i merely stated it is possible to document it, and that is my belief...
Yes! Much the same way when Darwin created the story of evolution on galapagos!
Why do i get the sense that your answer keeps evolving....you said "evolution is easy to document"  then by all means document it and share it with us, maybe you have something new that will make the case for evolution. Is there proof that man has witness evolution and what are these scientific findings?
Then you ended with "belief" so i believe you just admitted that your adherance to evolution is also by FAITH.
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Offline tony

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1173 on: Jan 11, 2015 at 10:19 AM »
yes, for lack of better things to do, man's fertile imagination is the breeding ground of all sorts of ideas...
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline bumblebee

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1174 on: Jan 11, 2015 at 10:43 AM »
So, what to you constitute evidence of intelligent design or designer? And Just because to you there is no evidence of designer are we then to conclude the designer does not exist?

Same with the "missing link" right? Just because no evidences are found doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Quote
First of all do you agree that these numbers exist? How do you then account for the presence of these contants?

My understanding is that those constants apply only where there is gravity. How about the farthest reaches of the universe where there's no gravity? Kaya nga the discovery of dark energy rattled the scientific community.

Also, based on your explanation, everything is purposely created, for a reason. This was the difference in perspective I was talking about. For you, everything is as was planned or designed. For me, everything is one of infinite possibilities.
« Last Edit: Jan 11, 2015 at 11:08 AM by bumblebee »

Offline tony

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1175 on: Jan 11, 2015 at 11:05 AM »
threads like these are not to be taken seriously, these are after all for the entertainment of members as i see it...
isn't PDVD great?, for allowing religion, politics, and artista chismis to be discussed here....
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1176 on: Jan 11, 2015 at 11:34 AM »
Here's my problem with using highly improbably events as proof. Highly improbable events happen all the time.

What are the odds 50 years ago that you would have come into existence? How many chance decisions by your parents needed to have happened for them to meet? If they met in school, who chose that school? Who chose their sections? Were there other possible suitors? Was there an event that made them fall in love? Perhaps a dance or a concert? What if the organizer decided not to push through with the event? What if a sudden accident on the road prevented them from making it? And on and on. Highly improbable right? Now extend that to 2 more pairs of couples--your grand parents. How improbable would your existence have been 80 years ago? How about 10 generations back? How about 100? How about 1000 generations ago? All those ancestors who by some quirk of chance would just as easily not have existed and therefore you wouldn't either. We would be approaching astronomically improbable numbers already, I would think.

Now are we to surmise that the very fact of your existence proves that someone guided all those people so that eventually, after 30,000 years you would come to exist? Or do you exist purely by chance?

Short answer....yes sure my being born and named elmo could be by chance! But, there's a but. Consider first how a baby is conceived. When millions of sperms meet just one egg and only one sperm will "win the lotto"! There's definitely an infinite possibility of combination, but once fertilization occurs only one will be born. There's is a big difference between giving birth to man with the birth of the universe.However in both cases it follows the principle of cause and effect.
In humans there is already pre-existing materials and the reproduction is sexual. While the universe had no pre-existing material and its "reproduction" is (well I actually don't know what to call it), suffice it to say that it is governed by precise constants and quantities for the universe to exist as we see it!

If this is your notion that the birth of the universe is similar to a baby w/ infinitely possibilities, then you have now the problem of the "parents" of universe or a so-called universe maker. How did that came about? And isn't there a need to set parameters to the universe to be born? And once the "right" universe is born like ours, will the others exist as well or wont exist at all, much like when I born all other combinations could no longer exist!
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Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1177 on: Jan 11, 2015 at 12:45 PM »
Same with the "missing link" right? Just because no evidences are found doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

My understanding is that those constants apply only where there is gravity. How about the farthest reaches of the universe where there's no gravity? Kaya nga the discovery of dark energy rattled the scientific community.

Also, based on your explanation, everything is purposely created, for a reason. This was the difference in perspective I was talking about. For you, everything is as was planned or designed. For me, everything is one of infinite possibilities.
So, my notion of a Designer and your Evolution is in the same boat.....No Evidence!

NASA's cosmic journeys is actually studying the limits of gravity. We know what gravity does, but science has yet to fully understand how it does it. The missions aims to know about the nature of gravity in the far reaches of space. Scientist has discovered that the universe was expanding more slowly in the past that it is now. This is totally unexpected because the common prediction is that the universe is decelerating! The force that causes this  acceleration has been given a name dark energy...more is unknown than know about this energy.

There is a lot more to know about our earth and the universe...it is a big space after all. But I believe that the more we explore our surroundings the more will discover the order and precision the governs the universe.

So, you believe in the Multiverse theory of how the universe came about? How do you prove the presence of this other universe? How  did the multiverse came about?
« Last Edit: Jan 11, 2015 at 12:52 PM by docelmo »
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Offline leomarley

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1178 on: Jan 11, 2015 at 01:25 PM »
Since the Designer or God as we have been describing is outside time and space, spiritual and eternal, then no scientific tool is adequate to detect His presence....you need something more. something beyond the confines of the material world. We can only infer that the physical world is governed by something beyond it.

Based on our common experience of man-made works, we see and discern that our "creations" are based on our intelligence or mind and those creations couldn't just happen, in the same manner we have discovered DNA which information or code to make Life, and the universe contain constants and quantities so precise that it defies imagination. Then the only conclusion we make is that Life and the Universe has a Cause outside and beyond the confines of the physical world.
Thus it is Fine-Tuning that we could test using the scientific method.
Since you've mentioned criteria for scientific theory, let apply this to evolution
-What falsifiable predictions has evolution made?
- What well-supported  independent strands of evidence has evolution produce?
- Name one that evolution has that is consistent with pre-existing experimental results and at least as accurate in its predictions as are any pre-existing theories.
- Name some of these "minor adaptations" to account for new data.

While at it, kindly reply to my question on how you can account for the gradual chances of body plans from say Gills to Lungs for an animal to survive in the Darwinian model of gradual, undirected random change...

you said it yourself, you cannot prove that a designer was responsible for the "fine tuning" within the confines of scientific method therefore it is not based on science. it is an assumption. since you're saying that these numbers are evidence of ID, why would you test the evidence? you do an experiment to produce evidence. what you need to test is your hypothesis that a designer made those numbers. but since you can't have an experiment to prove it you're basically saying: "Ah, why do these numbers exist? there must be a cause. it's because of GOD!" you jumped to a conclusion that these numbers are caused by God yet you can't prove it or falsify it with the use of Scientific Method. This is why the scientific community consider this idea of ID as merely a religious or theistic explanation. hence, as i've said earlier, it all comes down to faith with ID.

Now let's apply the criteria for Scientific Theories to Evolution:

1. It makes falsifiable predictions with consistent accuracy across a broad area of scientific inquiry (such as mechanics).

Creationists and ID proponents try to falsify it all the time. You yourself are a perfect example.

http://www.conservapedia.com/Falsifiability_of_evolution

2. It is well-supported by many independent strands of evidence, rather than a single foundation. This ensures that it is probably a good approximation, if not completely correct.

- ancient organism remains or fossil records, DNA testing, similarities between two related living organisms, similarities of embryos, aritficial selection or breeding.

http://necsi.edu/projects/evolution/evidence/evidence_intro.html

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/lines_01

3. It is consistent with pre-existing experimental results and at least as accurate in its predictions as are any pre-existing theories.

- Darwin predicted that precursors to the trilobite would be found in pre-Silurian rocks. He was correct: they were subsequently found.
- Similarly, Darwin predicted that Precambrian fossils would be found. He wrote in 1859 that the total absence of fossils in Precambrian rock was "inexplicable" and that the lack might "be truly urged as a valid argument" against his theory. When such fossils were found, starting in 1953, it turned out that they had been abundant all along. They were just so small that it took a microscope to see them.
- There are two kinds of whales: those with teeth, and those that strain microscopic food out of seawater with baleen. It was predicted that a transitional whale must have once existed, which had both teeth and baleen. Such a fossil has since been found.
- Evolution predicts that the fossil record will show different populations of creatures at different times. For example, it predicts we will never find fossils of trilobites with fossils of dinosaurs, since their geological time-lines don't overlap. The "Cretaceous seaway" deposits in Colorado and Wyoming contain almost 90 different kinds of ammonites, but no one has ever found two different kinds of ammonite together in the same rockbed.
- Evolution predicts that animals on distant islands will appear closely related to animals on the closest mainland, and that the older and more distant the island, the more distant the relationship.
- Evolution predicts that features of living things will fit a hierarchical arrangement of relatedness. For example, arthropods all have chitinous exoskeleton, hemocoel, and jointed legs. Insects have all these plus head-thorax-abdomen body plan and 6 legs. Flies have all that plus two wings and halteres. Calypterate flies have all that plus a certain style of antennae, wing veins, and sutures on the face and back. You will never find the distinguishing features of calypterate flies on a non-fly, much less on a non-insect or non-arthropod.
- Evolution predicts that simple, valuable features will evolve independently, and that when they do, they will most likely have differences not relevant to function. For example, the eyes of molluscs, arthropods, and vertebrates are extremely different, and ears can appear on any of at least ten different locations on different insects.

need more?

http://chem.tufts.edu/answersinscience/evo_science.html

4. It can be subjected to minor adaptations to account for new data that do not fit it perfectly, as they are discovered, thus increasing its predictive capability over time.

Yes it can and it has since it's introduction in 1859. it is not yet complete but there is enough data to know that it is a fact.

5. It is among the most parsimonious explanations, economical in the use of proposed entities or explanatory steps. (See Occam's razor. Since there is no generally accepted objective definition of parsimony, this is not a strict criterion, but some theories are much less economical than others.)

yes it is.

Quote
Biologists make predictions, then they go out into the field or the lab to see if their predictions hold up. When hundreds of predictions of this sort are fulfilled, a theory reaches the point where it becomes certain, at least on a broad level. And that is where we are with evolution.

i'm not sure how to answer your last question because i'm not sure if you typed in chances or change but to answer it, from the available evidence lungs did not evolve from gills. early species of fish developed a lung-like bladder to supplement oxygen from its gills.

Offline dodie

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1179 on: Jan 11, 2015 at 01:54 PM »
kaya mo yan DOC.....dito lang kme tagapalakpak!!! moral support, ika nga! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
WCH CM U?

Offline sardaukar

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1180 on: Jan 11, 2015 at 08:36 PM »
Short answer....yes sure my being born and named elmo could be by chance!
While the universe had no pre-existing material and its "reproduction" is (well I actually don't know what to call it), suffice it to say that it is governed by precise constants and quantities for the universe to exist as we see it!

If this is your notion that the birth of the universe is similar to a baby w/ infinitely possibilities, then you have now the problem of the "parents" of universe or a so-called universe maker.

No, it's not a problem. The universe doesn't need a maker!

And isn't there a need to set parameters to the universe to be born? And once the "right" universe is born like ours, will the others exist as well or wont exist at all, much like when I born all other combinations could no longer exist!

The parameters were set when the universe was born. Nobody needed to set it! If the strength of the force binding nucleons to the nuclei wasn't just right, or the cosmological constant wasn't just right, then we wouldn't be here to argue about the nature of the universe.

Other universes certainly could exist (as theorized in M Theory) though we have no way of proving that yet. But if true, then all possible universes can exist and only a very tiny fraction of which would support life!

I like how Douglas Adams puts it:

“This is rather as if you imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for.”

Offline dpogs

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1181 on: Jan 12, 2015 at 12:53 AM »
just give us concrete evidence or complete documents na nagpapakita on how living matters sprout from non-living matters... not just speculations...
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Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1182 on: Jan 12, 2015 at 08:23 AM »
you said it yourself, you cannot prove that a designer was responsible for the "fine tuning" within the confines of scientific method therefore it is not based on science. it is an assumption. since you're saying that these numbers are evidence of ID, why would you test the evidence? you do an experiment to produce evidence. what you need to test is your hypothesis that a designer made those numbers. but since you can't have an experiment to prove it you're basically saying: "Ah, why do these numbers exist? there must be a cause. it's because of GOD!" you jumped to a conclusion that these numbers are caused by God yet you can't prove it or falsify it with the use of Scientific Method. This is why the scientific community consider this idea of ID as merely a religious or theistic explanation. hence, as i've said earlier, it all comes down to faith with ID.
 
Though I said the “Designer” is not Testable at our present level of knowledge the detection of Intelligence is…..And so Intelligent Design as a Scientific Theory  is Testable and Falsifiable. And Intelligent Design is…..falsified by evolution!

To put it simply Darwin's theory says all natural biological complexity arose by random undirected mutation or variation and natural selection. While Intelligent Design theory says that some aspects of natural biological complexity show evidence of design or intelligent agency. Therefore it is on the question of evidence for intelligent design in biology that the  debate goes on and on…

ID and Darwinism are two sides of the same coin or  two opposing conclusions drawn from the same question: is there design  in biology? If there is, ID is true. If there isn't, Darwinism is true. The falsification of intelligent design is Evolutionism. The falsification of Darwinism is intelligent design. Either biology shows evidence of intelligent agency, or it doesn't. Either intelligent design and Evolutionism are both science, or neither is science. If you can't test the hypothesis of intelligent agency in biology, then you can't test Evolution, and Evolution is immune from evidence and must simply be accepted on faith.

Darwinism is intelligent design's Twin. So why would claim that ID isn't falsifiable, when evolution is the falsification of ID? Furthermore, if ID isn't falsifiable, then the question of design in biology can't be tested by science, and this in effect makes Evolution is immune from evidence. Then Evolution must then be accepted on faith.
Evolutionists aren't concerned that intelligent design isn't falsifiable. The concern is that it isn't false.

You said it yourself we falsify evolution everyday using ID......thus it stands to reason that the opposite is also true!
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Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1183 on: Jan 12, 2015 at 09:46 AM »
A simple comparison of predictions:

Evolution as a Scientific Theory predicts;

   -Gradual Modifications of animals
   -Fossils would show transitional species
        -Animals would have ancestor-descendant relation and follow a hierarchical arrangement from the primitive to the modern. eg.” Tree of Life”

Intelligent Design as a Scientific Theory predicts;

       -Abrupt appearance of animals according to species
       -Fossils would show fully formed animals w/ no transitional species
       -Animal does not show ancestor-descendant relation but are governed by genetic modification/similarities and there is no primitive to modern arrangement.  eg. “Orchard of Life”

end of part 2..
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Offline Tempter

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1184 on: Jan 12, 2015 at 10:31 AM »
threads like these are not to be taken seriously, these are after all for the entertainment of members as i see it...
isn't PDVD great?, for allowing religion, politics, and artista chismis to be discussed here....

+100

I just don't understand some people declaring themselves as "EXPERT" in some field and validates it by explaining their field which seems relevant but in reality no relevance whatsoever... ;D
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1185 on: Jan 12, 2015 at 01:45 PM »
Now let's apply the criteria for Scientific Theories to Evolution:
1. It makes falsifiable predictions with consistent accuracy across a broad area of scientific inquiry (such as mechanics).
Creationists and ID proponents try to falsify it all the time. You yourself are a perfect example.
http://www.conservapedia.com/Falsifiability_of_evolution

That is not what “falsifiability” means.
 
For a theory to be falsifiable, it is not sufficient that someone argues against it.  Falsifiability means the possibility of showing to be false. 
 
For example, if I say the earth is round, all you have to do is show me a picture of a flat earth taken from space, and the statement is falsified. 

Therefore, the statement is falsifiable because it is possible to take a picture of the earth from space, and the inability to produce the falsifying data makes the statement true.   
 
But if I say all Filipinos will rule the earth after 1 million years, the statement is unfalsifiable because it is impossible to show it to be false without waiting for a million years.
 
Evolutionism is unfalsifiable because there is no way to test the claim that all living things have a common origin. 
 
Q: Why are there no transitional forms, when millions of fossils have already been found? A: Because the fossil record is still incomplete.
 
Q: If evolution is a gradual process, why do fossils show systematic gaps, with new kinds of life suddenly appearing?  A: If new species suddenly appears, then this is proof of punctuated equilibrium (no change for long periods, then sudden appearance of new species). 
 
Evolution is a gradual process = This proves Darwinism is correct.  New forms of life suddenly appear = This proves that punctuated equilibrium is correct, and evolution is still correct.


Simply stated, evolutionism is unfalsifiable because it has the ability to explain anything.  It’s a no-lose situation for the evolutionists.  Just invent a bunch of contradictory, speculative explanations and the theory can never be falsified.   
« Last Edit: Jan 13, 2015 at 11:46 AM by barrister »

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1186 on: Jan 12, 2015 at 02:16 PM »
2. It is well-supported by many independent strands of evidence, rather than a single foundation. This ensures that it is probably a good approximation, if not completely correct.
 
- ancient organism remains or fossil records, DNA testing, similarities between two related living organisms, similarities of embryos, aritficial selection or breeding.
 
http://necsi.edu/projects/evolution/evidence/evidence_intro.html
 
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/lines_01
 


None of those can be considered proof of evolution, because all that shows is circular reasoning.
 
Fossil records, DNA, embryos, etc. of different species show similarities.  Conclusion?  One evolved from the other.  Why do you conclude evolution on the mere basis of similarities?  Because they are similar.
 
That is circular reasoning because you only returned to where you started from.

The conclusion is based on speculation.  Similarity does not show evolution, it merely shows similarity and nothing more. 

A frog is similar to a man --- both have legs, eyes, noses, ears, etc.  Therefore, frogs evolved into men because they have similarities? 

To conclude ancestry from mere similarity is speculative.  Like saying that a carriage is similar to a car; therefore carriages evolved into cars by random chance without a designer. 
« Last Edit: Jan 12, 2015 at 03:00 PM by barrister »

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1187 on: Jan 12, 2015 at 02:32 PM »
3. It is consistent with pre-existing experimental results and at least as accurate in its predictions as are any pre-existing theories.

- Darwin predicted that precursors to the trilobite would be found in pre-Silurian rocks. He was correct: they were subsequently found.

- Similarly, Darwin predicted that Precambrian fossils would be found. He wrote in 1859 that the total absence of fossils in Precambrian rock was "inexplicable" and that the lack might "be truly urged as a valid argument" against his theory. When such fossils were found, starting in 1953, it turned out that they had been abundant all along. They were just so small that it took a microscope to see them.

- There are two kinds of whales: those with teeth, and those that strain microscopic food out of seawater with baleen. It was predicted that a transitional whale must have once existed, which had both teeth and baleen. Such a fossil has since been found.

- Evolution predicts that the fossil record will show different populations of creatures at different times. For example, it predicts we will never find fossils of trilobites with fossils of dinosaurs, since their geological time-lines don't overlap. The "Cretaceous seaway" deposits in Colorado and Wyoming contain almost 90 different kinds of ammonites, but no one has ever found two different kinds of ammonite together in the same rockbed.

- Evolution predicts that animals on distant islands will appear closely related to animals on the closest mainland, and that the older and more distant the island, the more distant the relationship.

- Evolution predicts that features of living things will fit a hierarchical arrangement of relatedness. For example, arthropods all have chitinous exoskeleton, hemocoel, and jointed legs. Insects have all these plus head-thorax-abdomen body plan and 6 legs. Flies have all that plus two wings and halteres. Calypterate flies have all that plus a certain style of antennae, wing veins, and sutures on the face and back. You will never find the distinguishing features of calypterate flies on a non-fly, much less on a non-insect or non-arthropod.

- Evolution predicts that simple, valuable features will evolve independently, and that when they do, they will most likely have differences not relevant to function. For example, the eyes of molluscs, arthropods, and vertebrates are extremely different, and ears can appear on any of at least ten different locations on different insects.

"Predictability" refers to something in the future, not in the past.

Evolutionism says its theory is predictable, yet it always refers to something in the past and not in the future.  Yes, the fossil was discoved after the prediction, but the evolutionary event it relates to is a past event that happened before the prediction.

To demonstrate predictability, they must predict an evolutionary event in the future, instead of merely "predicting" the discovery of a fossil.

Thus:


1.  Precursors to the trilobite were not found.  Something was found, but it was not a precursor to the trilobite, nor was it a precursor to anything else.

2.  Darwin’s dilemma was the absence of intermediate fossils showing that the Cambrian phyla diverged from a common ancestor.
 
Since Darwin’s time, they have found so many Precambrian fossils, including exceptionally well-preserved microbes.  If preservation was so excellent, they should have found ancestors of the Cambrian phyla, but they have not.

This actually worsens Darwin’s dilemma because instead of finding transitional forms, all they found were microbes and other forms so primitive that they could not have been precursors of the Cambrian phyla. 

3. Some whales with teeth, some whales with baleen, some whales with teeth and baleen.

That does not prove evolution. All of them are still whales, aren’t they?  Adaptation is not the same as macroevolution.   

4.  Even if trilobites and dinosaurs were alive today, they still wouldn’t be found together, because they live in different ecological zones. Dinosaurs are land animals, but trilobites are bottom-dwelling sea creatures.

There are variations between ammonite kinds, but the variations do not show macroevolution, since all of them are still ammonites.  The sutures in the shells were found to be more elaborate in the Late Paleozoic and Mesozoic, but there is no significant change. There are no intermediate or part-way ammonite forms in the fossil beds—no unambiguous line of evolutionary descent.

5. If biogeography proves evolution, then there should be no case of disjunct distributions in both the fossil record and the living world.   
 
But similar plants and animals are found not only across adjacent regions of land or neighboring islands, but also on different continents, separated by large stretches of land or ocean.
 
Evolutionists sometimes explain these by arguing that continental drift separated similar groups that once lived in close proximity and therefore shared common ancestors. This is the explanation given, for example, as to why chironomid midges are found in Antarctica, Southern Australia, South America, New Zealand and South Africa.

However, according to evolutionists’ own theories, many species that are disjunct across previously joined continents evolved after their separation. For example, South America and Africa allegedly separated around 100 million years ago, but species of cactus, which supposedly evolved in South America around thirty million years ago, are also found in Africa. Similarly, the evolutionary accounts of the emergence of rodents found in South America and Africa do not fit the generally accepted timing of continent drift.
 
Many other puzzling disjunctions across these continents are known. Moreover, disjunct species are frequently found on continents that never bordered one another. For example, many plants and insects are known to be disjunct across the Pacific Ocean. Interestingly, the opossum Dromiciops, found in Chile, is much closer to Australian marsupials than to other South American marsupials.
 
There is an abundance of other biogeographic anomalies that do not fit the expected evolutionary pattern. For example, the fauna of central and southern Africa is closer to that of southern Asia than that of northern Africa, and flora found in Madagascar is remarkably similar to that of Indonesia. Crowberries (Empetrum) are found only in the more northern regions of the northern hemisphere and in the most southern regions of the southern hemisphere. Many closely related plants are found only in eastern North America and eastern Asia.

6. Any set of objects, whether or not they originated in an evolutionary process, can be classified hierarchically.

Cars are independently created; they are not generated by an evolutionary process.  But any given list of cars can be classified hierarchically, for example, by dividing them according to body material: fiberglass or metal; fuel: by gas, diesel or battery; by drive: real-wheel, front-wheel, 4-wheel; by body design: sedan or SUV; etc.  Yet all of them have tires and a steering wheel.

Living things can also be classified hierarchically.  But to jump to the conclusion that this is already evidence for natural evolution from common ancestry is speculative.

The distinguishing feature of flies vs. a non-fly contradicts rather than supports evolution.  The fossil record shows fully developed flying insects, but no transitional forms.
 
In the same manner, fish have gills, reptiles don’t.  You will never find a reptile with gills not because reptiles evolved from fish, but because reptiles are creatures that appeared on earth separately and distinctly from fish.

7.  Similar eyes = they evolved.   Different eyes = they still evolved.

Yet another example of unfalsifiability.  No matter where you go, even if it's in contradictory directions, it's still evolution.
« Last Edit: Jan 13, 2015 at 11:58 AM by barrister »

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1188 on: Jan 12, 2015 at 02:50 PM »
To add further indeed  how do you falsify evolution when even the discovery  of “Living-fossils” is adapted as evidence for continuing evolution!
Ancient organism remains in the fossils…..yes sure! I agree, but what does evolution actually predict about it.
Evolution is natural selection through random mutation then this would result in the gradual changes in animals as it transitions from one to another….then the fossil record will show thousands if not millions of transitional animals…..we have yet to see one.

The Cambrian Explosion is in fact a problem for evolution since it shows a very different picture than what was predicted. This time period in earth’s history has produced 2  minor “hurdles” for evolution. One is the apparent lack of ancestors for the 60 or so animal phyla which was discovered in this layer, and the next is from an anatomical point of view. The animal phyla which “suddenly” appeared exhibited novel body plans that the only way that this could happen is for the explosion of new  information as well…..and this information was later found in the DNA. Natural selection has failed to account for the presence of this information in the DNA
.
DNA testing….are you saying DNA testing reveals that animals are related to each other in a clear hierarchical way as predicted by the Darwinian evolution…..recent studies on genetics does not coincide with the Darwinian “Tree of Life”……what can be seen instead is a Web of Life or an Orchard of Trees!

Consider this;
 In an article entitled: Rearranging the branches of the tree of life.
“As part of an outpouring of research that is revolutionizing notions about the genetic, biochemical, structural and evolutionary relationships among living things, fungi like mushrooms have now been revealed as being closer to animals like humans than to plants like lettuce.” Scientists are consequently having to rethink some long-held ideas about evolution


Similarities of animals and embryos are not proof of evolution. Sir, Barrister already pointed this out..

Artificial selection and breeding…….well isn’t that very similar having a creator. Without the breeder will there be selective breeding?

While the list other “predictions” of evolution are merely adaptions of animals and so-called “change over time”. Not one of these examples demonstrates the transition from say dinosaur to birds or fish to mammals….

Whale Evolution has so many holes in its presentation that it won’t hold water. The trilobite once thought of as primitive has in fact complex biochemical systems and the integrated organ systems! The pre-cambrian fossils is no help at all in establishing ancestry. And the trilobite together w/ the other 60 animal phyla were all present in the Cambrian period. Can evolution account for this?

So Darwin’s word rings true: “If numerous species belonging to the same genera or families. Have really started into life at once, the fact would be fatal to the theory of descent with slow modification through natural selection.”- Origin of the species
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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1189 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 07:14 AM »
+100

I just don't understand some people declaring themselves as "EXPERT" in some field and validates it by explaining their field which seems relevant but in reality no relevance whatsoever... ;D
Mmmm.....sounds a lot like Dawkins grudging admission of "appearance of apparent design in nature". :D
« Last Edit: Jan 13, 2015 at 07:21 AM by docelmo »
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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1190 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 11:22 AM »
The difference between the Evolutionist and the ID/Creationist group....take the Case of the Magic Rabbit Trick....

To the ID/Creationist....we have a Magician, a magician's hat and then comes the rabbit!
To the evolutionist....we only have the rabbit, No hat and No Magician!

Which is more magical?
« Last Edit: Jan 13, 2015 at 11:26 AM by docelmo »
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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1191 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 11:30 AM »
The difference between the Evolutionist and the ID/Creationist group....take the Case of the Magic Rabbit Trick....

To the ID/Creationist....we have a Magician, a magician's hat and then comes the rabbit!
To the evolutionist....we only have the rabbit, No hat and No Magician!

Which is more magical?

The creationist, why?

Where did the magician and the hat came from?

At least sa evolutionist isa lang yung magical, yung sa creationist 2 items... ;D
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1192 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 12:26 PM »
The creationist, why?

Where did the magician and the hat came from?

At least sa evolutionist isa lang yung magical, yung sa creationist 2 items... ;D
Funny, you should demand for the cause of the magician and the hat, while readily and blindly accept that the rabbit can appear out of thin air!
The context was on the rabbit trick. At least we have a magician a potential miracle worker! While your magician is The great Chance and Time!

You demand the application of the principle of Cause and Effect on the Magician and not demand the same principle on the sudden appearance of the rabit!
« Last Edit: Jan 13, 2015 at 01:23 PM by docelmo »
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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1193 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 01:55 PM »
Funny, you should demand for the cause of the magician and the hat, while readily and blindly accept that the rabbit can appear out of thin air!
The context was on the rabbit trick. At least we have a magician a potential miracle worker! While your magician is The great Chance and Time!

You demand the application of the principle of Cause and Effect on the Magician and not demand the same principle on the sudden appearance of the rabit!

I actually demand on both in this case, kaya lang ang tanong mo kung sino ang mas magical so yan ang sagot ko kasi mas marami ang dapat mag sudden appearance. And that is the Evolutionist point. San mangagaling yung Intelligence sa Intelligent Design?
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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1194 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 04:41 PM »
I actually demand on both in this case, kaya lang ang tanong mo kung sino ang mas magical so yan ang sagot ko kasi mas marami ang dapat mag sudden appearance. And that is the Evolutionist point. San mangagaling yung Intelligence sa Intelligent Design?
Well your post didn't seem to imply that...

Sa tingin ko  para sayo mas madali at ka panipaniwala na may rabbit na biglang lilitaw kesa kung may magikero na gagawa nito.

What we should establish first and agree upon is if the rabbit really exist or appeared in the case of intelligence if it exist in nature. Once you've acknowledge that the rabbit or intelligence or for that matter the universe exist, then the next step is to establish the cause of its existense.  Unless you believe that things can just "create themselves" and intelligence just popped out of thin air.
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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1195 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 05:08 PM »
Well your post didn't seem to imply that...

Sa tingin ko  para sayo mas madali at ka panipaniwala na may rabbit na biglang lilitaw kesa kung may magikero na gagawa nito.

What we should establish first and agree upon is if the rabbit really exist or appeared in the case of intelligence if it exist in nature. Once you've acknowledge that the rabbit or intelligence or for that matter the universe exist, then the next step is to establish the cause of its existense.  Unless you believe that things can just "create themselves" and intelligence just popped out of thin air.

Hindi ba iyan ang ina-advocate ng ID? Intelligence without a cause??? Because you have faith?

At hindi ba kayo ang nag-iimply na everything just popped out of thin air? Dahil everything is created by higher intelligent being/s?

And sorry, your assumptions about me are wrong...
« Last Edit: Jan 13, 2015 at 05:11 PM by Tempter »
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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1196 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 06:04 PM »
Hindi ba iyan ang ina-advocate ng ID? Intelligence without a cause??? Because you have faith?

At hindi ba kayo ang nag-iimply na everything just popped out of thin air? Dahil everything is created by higher intelligent being/s?

And sorry, your assumptions about me are wrong...
Huh? Seriously? If ID is intelligence w/o cause, then evolution is No intelligence and no cause.....undirected random!
What ID is infering is that "nformation" in the DNA made it possible to produce new life forms and not through undirected random mutation. Is that popping out of thin air?

Intelligence is always due to intelligent agency.
Just as your posts here is due to an intelligent agency(you) and did not popped out of thin air or am I wrong?

« Last Edit: Jan 13, 2015 at 06:06 PM by docelmo »
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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1197 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 06:27 PM »
Huh? Seriously? If ID is intelligence w/o cause, then evolution is No intelligence and no cause.....undirected random!
What ID is infering is that "nformation" in the DNA made it possible to produce new life forms and not through undirected random mutation. Is that popping out of thin air?

Intelligence is always due to intelligent agency.
Just as your posts here is due to an intelligent agency(you) and did not popped out of thin air or am I wrong?



Just like I said before, ID starts at 100 while evolution starts at zero. You are already arguing about the design of DNA, why don't start with the intelligence that designed the DNA? Did it just popped out of thin air?

For the record, I advocate both Evo and ID working together to get us here... natatawa lang ako kasi nag-aargue ang magkabilang side starting on different time premise.
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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1198 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 06:41 PM »
isn't PDVD great?, for allowing religion, politics, and artista chismis to be discussed here....

true sir tony. at may bonus pang pampa init na "HOT Thread". ^-^ ;D

ang stand ko lang sa topic na ito, if ever na may mai present na undeniable/hard evidence sa theory of evolution, ang masasabi ko lang, God pa rin ang author nun na nadiscover ni Charles Darwin. Pero hanggang hominids lang at di naging modern human.

Sa akin lang kasi, Bible does not contradict scientific discoveries. Science is a tool to reveal God and His creation.


 
« Last Edit: Jan 13, 2015 at 07:42 PM by majoe »

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1199 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 08:55 PM »
May I ask, if you believe that God created all species of life on earth individually (meaning not through evolution), why do you think over 99% of all life He ever created is now extinct? Was He somehow just doing it through trial and error?
« Last Edit: Jan 13, 2015 at 08:55 PM by sardaukar »