Author Topic: Newbie & Not-so Noob Thread: Questions (FAQ) on Receivers/Amplifiers  (Read 193510 times)

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Offline joan2

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If you want to make a solid state amp sound like vacuum tube...then just use tubes.

Can you have push-pull all the way? Don't you have a basic single ended input, then a splitter, then driver then the output...which is only the push-pull?  Or the PASS amps that are single ended all the way.

Good SS amps, have the output stage in partial Class A...that is why the A/B class.  You want all in class a except the output....?????? That will be a bad amp because of the transistor switching on and off....noise...at very low wattage...that would be very audible....or do want a digital amp.

What do you think of transformers? Colored?

there are many ss cuircuit topologies out there, with ss many permutations are possible,(because both bjt's and mosfets,  have two types, the npn/pnp and the n-channel/p-channel, there is no such equivalents with tubes), including the one you mentioned!!! i don't want to make my solid state amps sound like tubes, i want my amp to be nuetral, not add anything that is not there in the music to begin with...
the class b output stage of ss bjt ss amps is imho it's 'achille's heel', just as the output transformer is to the tubes...but thru certein techiques, such as not allowing the output transistors to saturate once the amps clipp, and thru feedback methods, this problem can be ameliorated somehow...
« Last Edit: Nov 08, 2003 at 01:41 PM by joan2 »

Offline homer

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i hope this thread doesn't turn into a tube vs. ss debate.  this is for the benefit of those willing to learn about ss.

Offline joan2

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Anyway what Solid State amps are you talking about? Does it include the common receivers like Pioneer,Marantz, Denon, Onkyo, Yamaha or Harman Kardon? My receiver is a solid state and very good sounding but its a far cry compared to my ordinary vintage tube? I dont think that Im just appreciating distortions because I have been using solid state ever since and I know what is good and bad. I did not try tubes if I was not impress with the sound. Im not referring to the high end solid state but Im just comparing a vintage amp to an average receiver. Aside from all the technical explanation which doesnt prove anything that it would translate to a good sound, why is it different? Listening and enjoying is different than reading and be fascinated by the specs. Guys any experience owning and listening to a tube amp for a long time?


mod levi,
the path that you took, imho, is the best way to do it, you will appreciate tubes more if you started out with ss then migrate to tubes, i started out in the opposite direction, i built my first tube in 1968 from parts borrowed from a friend, i am not a convertional type, going along known paths...i started with ss sometime in the early 70's. i still remember the saturday's we spend at the national library looking at electronics magazines and trying to absorb as much as we can..i built my first ss amp around middle of 70's and my first leach amp in 1982....unlike some people, i do not keep a closed mind with regards to which is superior, tubes or ss, there is more to amps than just the superiority game!!!! i try to study amps circuitry tubes or ss and maybe second guess what the designer had in mind when he decided to build such an amp, his choice of components, etc...this gives me a lot of satisfaction....

in japan, they have what we may call "fads", in the begining, there are germanuim transistors with totem pole outputs, then came the silicon npn's in a quasi-complementary output, single ended input, boot-strapping drivers, were common...then came the long-tail-input(differential amp input) which still is common up to today, also about this time pnp output transistors came about, thus amps which are push-pull from input to output became a reality...

then there is Mr Nelson Pass, an icon in the amps buissines, his Threshold Stasis amps were used by Telarc Digatal....he advocated use of mosfets, and came up with diy amps such as the zen, and the aleph series, mosfets, mosfets have the input resistance of a tube and output resistance characteristics of bjt's....
so which of these are superior? only your ears can tell!!!
« Last Edit: Nov 08, 2003 at 07:46 AM by joan2 »

Offline joan2

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i hope this thread doesn't turn into a tube vs. ss debate.  this is for the benefit of those willing to learn about ss.

we'll see to it that it does not!!!

just a brief background info, tubes are normaly "on" meaning, plate current flows whether a grib bias voltage is present or not, wheras, bjt's are normally 'off', to make it conduct collector  current, an input voltage of about 0.6 volts must be present at the base, mosfet require from 1+ to about 4volts gate voltage in order to conduct drain current....
« Last Edit: Nov 08, 2003 at 07:58 AM by joan2 »

Offline ArnieSwarzie

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i hope this thread doesn't turn into a tube vs. ss debate.  this is for the benefit of those willing to learn about ss.

It has been interesting discussion comparing tube and SS. What I can see here as part of the problem in this comparison is the difference of technology before and now.

Before, we just have analog devices from the source to the speakers. All these devices alters the signals in the path - either as losses or amplifications.

Now, the only analog path that may remain are just the main amp driver. The CD/DVD, the DACS, and preamp may now all be digital, feeding the MAIN amp.

Whether we like it or not, we will not prefer a flat-sounding amp - it is dull and not exciting to listen with - and flat amps are generally for studio purposes. What we enjoy and run after are those amps we will enjoy hearing. Talk about marantz slightly laid back implementation is in itself an introduction of distortion to the original soud (you may call it equalization). The Denon is much more laid back than marantz - it is their sonic signature of Denon distortion - so goes with pioneer being bright or the NAD being soft or Yamaha somewhere in between with any of these.

Tube is basically 3% THD. It has soft clipping. These are distortions to sounds. Talk about sweet sounding even harmonics present in the sound makes it listenable - but it is not supposed to be there - thus it is distortion.

Basically, all SS amps (any brand) are almost identical linear (this is in fact the design concept of linear devices such as transistors). Their main differences is their signature distortions (equalizations) introduced in the preamp level. Further, your respective CDs like ARcam, HK, NAD and so on (if you use the analog line out) also provide another point of distortion (equalization) to maintain their signature sonic balance which has its own audiophile following.

Tubes, on its part has transformers in its signal path - it is an inductance in the signal path - and low gauge of magnet wire - which I deduce somehow explains the limitation of high frequency (because of inductance) and low frequency (because of gauge) - resulting in a minrangey sound. This is also distortion - and may explain the 3%THD typical of tubes.

So does tube listener enjoy distortion that why they loved tubes? I dare say yes! With the same reasoning, SS lovers loves distortions thats why they have brand following - av_phile for Onkyo, Others for HK, levi for Denon and others for NAD. anf all this are subjective preferences - and nobody can put his weight into saying tubes are better or SS is best.

Objectivity ought to have standards - and it is here parametric measurement will indicate superiority of SS in keeping signals almost unaltered (flat responses). but this is big deal to be made as basis for ones preference. Your ears, depending on your age level, type of your sonic balance, and music type you enjoy will dictate what amp to get.

Lastly, harmonics are sometimes very small issue (typically not audible) that is being magnified beyond practical terms by either camp.

In conclusion, scientifically and technically - tubes are already past its practical and economical life. but this does not mean that tube lovers should switch to SS - old technology can still thrive with the present though very expensive. This is why, tubes lovers are often referred to as hobbyist, and why debate about hobby.

Offline ArnieSwarzie

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hi sirs, did i get it correctly, that the main difference between tubes & ss are in the way they handle clipping?  tubes just have more finesse when pushed to its limit.  if so, then the trick is to make the ss amp so high-powered that it will never clip?  but the argument from the tube camp is that all amps will clip anyway because the musical peaks will require 1000w or more to reproduce without distortion.

Tubes handling of clipping can be thought of finesse - the artistic way of calling it. In the technical lingo, it is the inherent slowness of tubes to follow the signal. The peak of your music (in matters of milli to micro seconds) have already transpired before your tubes can ever react to it. Transistors are fast. That milli or micro seconds can be interpolated by transistor almost instantly - so it is always easier for transistor to clip.

So you can take this as distortion of the tube in the music signal. But what the heck, if you enjoy that distortion, why should you care about transistor!

Offline ArnieSwarzie

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There are more differences such as slew rates, rise times, THDs, noise floor, frequency response, microphonics, etc.

But what you are suggesting is in fact being done - allow more power bandwidth so that the onset of clipping beccomes unnecessary at listening levels.  Many audiophiles actually shy away from modestly powered SS amps which is basically the province of entry level stuff  and go for those that give at least 250 watts RMS per channel with instantaneous current handling capability reaching as far as twice that.  Clipping is almost never reached at half volume or more for either continuous and peak signals.  So get the most powerful SS amps you can buy and enjoy!!!

High powered amps are not the only means to attain non-clipping. marantz started this technology in their quarter-A. NAD offered this to their 752/762 and I think on their 320BEE. The technology is called bias switching. A microprocessor evaluates the signal from the input of the amplifier. When it sense a signal will be beyond the current bias of the power transistor, it will switch to the second bias (higher rail voltage) in order to deliver the music unaltered and unclipped, and goes back to its normal bias. very subtle implementation.

Offline ArnieSwarzie

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ss class A amps can give tubes a good run!!! with ss amps, the rule is not to play it real hard so it does not clip, most of the listening will be done in the 250mW to 2watt or so range anyway, so an amp rated for 250watt continous ave, will have plenty of headroom!!! a good ss state amp in my book will have the following specs:
1. an open loop bandwith of 20hz to 20khz.
2. a gain bandwith product of at least 8mhz.
3. has every stage with local degenaration.
4. all stages operates class A except the output transistors
5. uses cascoding in the vas stage.
6. is push-pull from input to out put
7. a thd of less than 0.2%
8. low overall negative feedback!!!

this thread about a classic classA amp should be a good read:http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11281 or this:http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3075

Yeah! I like your specifications. I have one amplifier like that. Dual mono, each is powered by 193VA (about 150W capacity each) transformer, is only 60W per channel, and class-A jfet devices before main power driver.

Offline joan2

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ArnieSwarzie,
i am glad you joined, av_phile and me in this thread, now my tasks become lighter, av_phile's fine writing crafsmanship, and your seemingly deep knowledge of the topic will surely go a long way...i started this thread to make readers aware that there is wider field outside of tubes!!! and make readers understand ss amps, as i believe a better informed reader can make better informed decisions.
 let me state the principles that i spouse!!
1. good sound need not be expensive!!! that is why i salute arnoldc for his work on coming up with a sub 10k set tube amp!! he must be encouraged and those who can  afford  it should buy his stuff!! akayt bundok deserves kuddos too for coming up with surplus amps, now people have cheaper alternative...

2. all this time, our orientation has been that of consumerism, we buy, buy, and buy!!! we have the best schools on the region, we are not lacking in talent, so if i can inspire some poeple to be producers instead of buyers, that will be great!!! i started a gainclone diy thread here, there will be others coming soon!!!

3. we are capable to produce our own amps, not just copy from existing designs, or just plain restoration!!! we can do better than that!!!
« Last Edit: Nov 08, 2003 at 06:12 PM by joan2 »

Offline levi

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mod levi,
the path that you took, imho, is the best way to do it, you will appreciate tubes more if you started out with ss then migrate to tubes, i started out in the opposite direction, i built my first tube in 1968 from parts borrowed from a friend, i am not a convertional type, going along known paths...i started with ss sometime in the early 70's. i still remember the saturday's we spend at the national library looking at electronics magazines and trying to absorb as much as we can..i built my first ss amp around middle of 70's and my first leach amp in 1982....unlike some people, i do not keep a closed mind with regards to which is superior, tubes or ss, there is more to amps than just the superiority game!!!! i try to study amps circuitry tubes or ss and maybe second guess what the designer had in mind when he decided to build such an amp, his choice of components, etc...this gives me a lot of satisfaction....

in japan, they have what we may call "fads", in the begining, there are germanuim transistors with totem pole outputs, then came the silicon npn's in a quasi-complementary output, single ended input, boot-strapping drivers, were common...then came the long-tail-input(differential amp input) which still is common up to today, also about this time pnp output transistors came about, thus amps which are push-pull from input to output became a reality...

then there is Mr Nelson Pass, an icon in the amps buissines, his Threshold Stasis amps were used by Telarc Digatal....he advocated use of mosfets, and came up with diy amps such as the zen, and the aleph series, mosfets, mosfets have the input resistance of a tube and output resistance characteristics of bjt's....
so which of these are superior? only your ears can tell!!!

you did not answer my question. You only gave your history. Anyway what tube design did you build in 1968, what happened to it? Do you still have tube gears now? How did it sound compared to the Solid State you built?

Offline levi

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It has been interesting discussion comparing tube and SS. What I can see here as part of the problem in this comparison is the difference of technology before and now.

Before, we just have analog devices from the source to the speakers. All these devices alters the signals in the path - either as losses or amplifications.

Now, the only analog path that may remain are just the main amp driver. The CD/DVD, the DACS, and preamp may now all be digital, feeding the MAIN amp.

Whether we like it or not, we will not prefer a flat-sounding amp - it is dull and not exciting to listen with - and flat amps are generally for studio purposes. What we enjoy and run after are those amps we will enjoy hearing. Talk about marantz slightly laid back implementation is in itself an introduction of distortion to the original soud (you may call it equalization). The Denon is much more laid back than marantz - it is their sonic signature of Denon distortion - so goes with pioneer being bright or the NAD being soft or Yamaha somewhere in between with any of these.

Tube is basically 3% THD. It has soft clipping. These are distortions to sounds. Talk about sweet sounding even harmonics present in the sound makes it listenable - but it is not supposed to be there - thus it is distortion.

Basically, all SS amps (any brand) are almost identical linear (this is in fact the design concept of linear devices such as transistors). Their main differences is their signature distortions (equalizations) introduced in the preamp level. Further, your respective CDs like ARcam, HK, NAD and so on (if you use the analog line out) also provide another point of distortion (equalization) to maintain their signature sonic balance which has its own audiophile following.

Tubes, on its part has transformers in its signal path - it is an inductance in the signal path - and low gauge of magnet wire - which I deduce somehow explains the limitation of high frequency (because of inductance) and low frequency (because of gauge) - resulting in a minrangey sound. This is also distortion - and may explain the 3%THD typical of tubes.

So does tube listener enjoy distortion that why they loved tubes? I dare say yes! With the same reasoning, SS lovers loves distortions thats why they have brand following - av_phile for Onkyo, Others for HK, levi for Denon and others for NAD. anf all this are subjective preferences - and nobody can put his weight into saying tubes are better or SS is best.

Objectivity ought to have standards - and it is here parametric measurement will indicate superiority of SS in keeping signals almost unaltered (flat responses). but this is big deal to be made as basis for ones preference. Your ears, depending on your age level, type of your sonic balance, and music type you enjoy will dictate what amp to get.

Lastly, harmonics are sometimes very small issue (typically not audible) that is being magnified beyond practical terms by either camp.

In conclusion, scientifically and technically - tubes are already past its practical and economical life. but this does not mean that tube lovers should switch to SS - old technology can still thrive with the present though very expensive. This is why, tubes lovers are often referred to as hobbyist, and why debate about hobby.

ArnieSwarzie,

    I think you are very familiar with tubes and I need to ask you some questions. Please PM me your details. Name, Add, tel, work etc.  Thanks

Levi

Offline Leiko

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akyat,
this is the third technology, first is the bjt, second  are fet's and mosfet's, then this one, igbt's...this last one is nothing more than a combination of the two, it combines the very high input resistance of mosfets and the very low output resistance of bjt's..this device was invented for motor driving purposes and eventually found its way into audio....i haven't even touched this device yet.....
going back to my favorite encyclopedia:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2131&highlight=
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2131&highlight=
as before, new technology is always met with so much enthusiasm, whether it can live up to expectations is another thing, me i'd stick it out with my leach amps....

these are very good links.  informative but a bit too technical.   ??? so where do Leach and Gain fall? (?Fet or bipolar or whatever)...

btw, thanks for offering the cheaper in hifi enjoyment.  :)

Offline nels76

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Ako I have a question.

What is the benefit of using a Torroidal Transformer in an amp compared to conventional transformer lang?

I've seen the Musical Fidelity of Narayan yesterday and inside you can see that it has a torroidal tranformer.

nels76
The Mysterious Gamma Ray Burst

Offline joan2

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Anyway what Solid State amps are you talking about? Does it include the common receivers like Pioneer,Marantz, Denon, Onkyo, Yamaha or Harman Kardon? My receiver is a solid state and very good sounding but its a far cry compared to my ordinary vintage tube? I dont think that Im just appreciating distortions because I have been using solid state ever since and I know what is good and bad. I did not try tubes if I was not impress with the sound. Im not referring to the high end solid state but Im just comparing a vintage amp to an average receiver. Aside from all the technical explanation which doesnt prove anything that it would translate to a good sound, why is it different? Listening and enjoying is different than reading and be fascinated by the specs. Guys any experience owning and listening to a tube amp for a long time?


leach ss amp, GAS Ampzilla, Southwest Techical Products 'Tigersuarus', were the first ones to be published, i built several leach amps and 'tigersuarus's' amps, what i pointed out in my history telling is that japanese follow certein 'fads' so that if poineer for example comes out with a certein circuit topology the onthers, like sansui, marantz, dennon and onkyo are sure to follow, it's a matter of what components (semiconductors) are available at the time of manufacture...i own an electronics repair shop (before i went overseas as a ofw) and i have seen many circuit topologies in the course of my work....

my first tube amp was a beam power, 6EM5, in a single ended configuration using standard parts, and i would say i enjoyed it while it lasted...then i moved on to ss....the specs i mentioned are for a leach ss amp, i would say the sound is detailed and not tiring to listen to even at high wolumes!! the tigersaurus on the other hand has strong bass but not so good midrange and highs!!!
« Last Edit: Nov 09, 2003 at 07:38 AM by joan2 »

Offline joan2

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Ako I have a question.

What is the benefit of using a Torroidal Transformer in an amp compared to conventional transformer lang?

I've seen the Musical Fidelity of Narayan yesterday and inside you can see that it has a torroidal tranformer.

nels76

torroids are smaller compared to an ei of the same va rating, has lower radiated magnetic field, hum pickup is minimized, but on the downside, it is more expensive becuase it takes longer to build(more difficult) and it suffers from buzzing effect whenever there is dc present on the ac lines!!! imho, you miss nothing if you just use an EI transformer...

Offline nels76

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Thanks bro.

Napansin ko nga na the real benefit is the space saving factor. Because Narayan's MF is slim. (1 to 2 inch lang) But really powerful.

Kudos to you for sharing your knowledge to others.

Peace.
The Mysterious Gamma Ray Burst

Offline audiovoodo

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joan/arni

If solid states are the way to go, low distortion, solid state devices sounding the same...etc

When a designer uses feedback to make his amps stable or sound better....I think he is not a good designer :-X.  Feedback causes a lot of newer problems....I think Matti Ottali some time in the 70's wrote about this....only THD measurements improve with feedback...not sound. :'(

Why are the Vintage Mark Levinson, Krell, Hi-end Accuphase/ONKYO,  which were built with the best component (transformer, caps, heatsinks) ...only being used as book ends ;D now....in short not listened to.

Maybe you fixation with solid state being accurate and low distortion over rated.... :o

Maybe solid state design have inherent design flaws to begin with.  Push pull for one splits the signal somewhere...then recombines....that is why Nelson Pass abandoned his Threshhold Design for his single ended Pass. It think that push pull if you like loud sound!

The Gain Clone is nice because it is cheap...but the number of components inside the MONOLITH Integrated Circuit is a lot and very complicated....such as you basic IC. What are your comment on Integrated Circuits versus DISCRETE? ??? ???

If tranformers are colored, why then does a hi-end company like ROWLAND RESEARCH always use transformers(JENSEN) in all their products ;D.

For that matter .....most Professional Studio/MIKE/MIXING amplifeers...have transformer...and even tubes...

During the recording process, I believe a lot of the music is damage/lost >:(....maybe you need a device to reconstruct what has been lost...something additive...even tube/transformer distortion! ;) :-*
« Last Edit: Nov 09, 2003 at 07:59 AM by audiovoodo »

Offline homer

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these are very good links.  informative but a bit too technical.   ??? so where do Leach and Gain fall? (?Fet or bipolar or whatever)...

btw, thanks for offering the cheaper in hifi enjoyment.  :)

the leach falls under bipolar.  as for the gainclone, it depends on the chip used.  the lm3886 is bipolar, while the opa541 is a hybrid (fet input stage, the rest bipolar).  the tda7294 has a bipolar input stage and dmos output stage.

Offline homer

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it has long been established that feedback, when used properly has its benefits.

http://www.tagmclarenaudio.com/dev/white/wp2.asp


as for the gainclone, i think you are prejudiced.  your "hi-end" rowland thinks otherwise.

http://www.jeffrowland.com/review16c.htm


most audio transformers are used in the input stage for balancing.  they are rarely used in the output stage.  transformer inductive effects are negligible when used in the input stage.


lost audio information can never be recovered.

Offline joan2

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joan/arni

If solid states are the way to go, low distortion, solid state devices sounding the same...etc

When a designer uses feedback to make his amps stable or sound better....I think he is not a good designer :-X.  Feedback causes a lot of newer problems....I think Matti Ottali some time in the 70's wrote about this....only THD measurements improve with feedback...not sound. :'(

Why are the Vintage Mark Levinson, Krell, Hi-end Accuphase/ONKYO,  which were built with the best component (transformer, caps, heatsinks) ...only being used as book ends ;D now....in short not listened to.

Maybe you fixation with solid state being accurate and low distortion over rated.... :o

Maybe solid state design have inherent design flaws to begin with.  Push pull for one splits the signal somewhere...then recombines....that is why Nelson Pass abandoned his Threshhold Design for his single ended Pass. It think that push pull if you like loud sound!

The Gain Clone is nice because it is cheap...but the number of components inside the MONOLITH Integrated Circuit is a lot and very complicated....such as you basic IC. What are your comment on Integrated Circuits versus DISCRETE? ??? ???

If tranformers are colored, why then does a hi-end company like ROWLAND RESEARCH always use transformers(JENSEN) in all their products ;D.

For that matter .....most Professional Studio/MIKE/MIXING amplifeers...have transformer...and even tubes...

During the recording process, I believe a lot of the music is damage/lost >:(....maybe you need a device to reconstruct what has been lost...something additive...even tube/transformer distortion! ;) :-*

first, i would like to correct your impression about my fixation with solid state amps, i am an ss guy only  because i find it practical in terms of cost, it is cheaper to build ss amps.....tubes sound sweet, i can hear that!!!

you may  be surprised to know that what separates a so-called "high-end" amps is the manner they were built, the components they used, the packaging, they paid a lot of attention to details!!! but circuitwise they are not much different the the average amps!!!! i saw the circuit of Nelson Pass's Threshold Stassis amps and i found it very simple, even the Mark Levinson ML2 is not that complicated!!!

if you recall i said a thd of 0.25% is good enough for me!! that may be high for some people!!!

i am trying to get hold of Matti Ottala's articles, if you have the link please post it here...what i have is the article witten by Prof. William Marshall Leach, in his construction article wich came out in the AUDIO magazine April and May 1980 editions, i also have the three part article entitled "An Overview of SID and TIM" written by Walter Jung,Mark L. Stephens, and Craig C. Todd which appeared in the AUDIO Magazine June, July, August 1979 edition..

i do not believe that such an "accurate" amp exists in the real world, it may only be in the minds of designers and have not been translated to reality!!!! according to my audio handbook, published by national semiconductors in 1980, "we're still working on it" more than 20 years later, i am still waiting!!!

i do not subscribe to the idea that tubes are superior to ss or vice-versa, each has its own character which apppeal to different people in a different way....there can be no generalizations here!!!

you are correct when you said there are design flaws, indeed there are many, a lot of time compromises had to be made, specially with commercial amps...so this is the challenge to designers then, how to work around these flaws... that is why DIY route for me is the best option, since you will be produding one unit only, and only for your own use, then you do not have to make compramises on  a lot of things...
 i put up this thread not to debate any body but to put out as much information as i can.....you don't have to take my word for it, do some research and i am sure you'll end up better informed....
« Last Edit: Nov 09, 2003 at 12:36 PM by joan2 »

Offline joan2

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gainclones were made (the japs are very fond of this!!! remember the AN214 chip used on Pioneer KP500 car Stereo that is still sough after today?) to take out the complicated wirings that a discrete amps entail and put as much inside the chip as possible...it is not realy that complicated as far as i am concerned....

jensen transformers used in the input were there to provide balanced signals and eliminate ground loops on professional equipment, transformers are very limited on bandwith and are more expensive than passive components!!! balanced signal line are better suited where long runs are expected...  
« Last Edit: Nov 09, 2003 at 12:28 PM by joan2 »

Offline audiovoodo

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[quote author=joan2  i put up this thread not to debate any body but to put out as much information as i can.....you don't have to take my word for it, do some research and i am sure you'll end up better informed....
Quote

I am not here to debate either, it just irritates me that there are some internet gurus who spread false info...now how do you have a push=pull circuit from input to output...that must be some cicuit! how many stages....? Please share this fantastic cicuit.... ???

Offline joan2

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Offline JojoD818

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gainclones were made (the japs are very fond of this!!! remember the AN214 chip used on Pioneer KP500 car Stereo that is still sough after today?)

 ;D I remember those! I have a boxfull of those chipamps back then when I get request from "jeepney" drivers who wants their KP500 repaired. Majority of the AN214s failure is due to output short! Human error eh.

JojoD

Offline JojoD818

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I am not here to debate either, it just irritates me that there are some internet gurus who spread false info...now how do you have a push=pull circuit from input to output...that must be some cicuit! how many stages....? Please share this fantastic cicuit....  

Hi,

I have one of those Low TIM Leach Amps here: http://www.geocities.com/jojod818/leach_amp/leach_low_tim.htm

I currently use this amp and is really a very good design. The sonics are excellent too.

JojoD

Offline audiovoodo

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hope this satisfies your curiousity:http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~mleach/superamp/circuit.pdf
and this:http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~mleach/superamp/ you can learn more about the author here:http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~mleach/


Maybe I am wrong, but it seem that this amp has a differrential input (as the link says), then it now acts as a single ended from the voltage stage, to the driver stage ;). Only at the OUPTUT Transistors will this amp act as a push-pull. Maybe you should say you want  your push pull amp to have a symetric circuit in the voltageand driver stage-not push pull.

The problem with these solid state amp are that they manipulate the signals too much, they split the positive and negative half of the signal (at the input differential stage), then amplify it in the next stage, then amplify the current in the predriver, then recombine, all this with the injection of some feedback at different stages.

Realistically, when you inject feedback after 2-4 stages back to input, won't there be a phase shift/delay of the signal. Just think about that.  ???


Offline av_phile

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Maybe I am wrong, but it seem that this amp has a differrential input (as the link says), then it now acts as a single ended from the voltage stage, to the driver stage ;). Only at the OUPTUT Transistors will this amp act as a push-pull. Maybe you should say you want  your push pull amp to have a symetric circuit in the voltageand driver stage-not push pull.

The problem with these solid state amp are that they manipulate the signals too much, they split the positive and negative half of the signal (at the input differential stage), then amplify it in the next stage, then amplify the current in the predriver, then recombine, all this with the injection of some feedback at different stages.

Realistically, when you inject feedback after 2-4 stages back to input, won't there be a phase shift/delay of the signal. Just think about that.  ???



Every electronic device, whether tube or ss, will manupulate a signal.  Every gain stage has a phase shift time delay introduced into the signal.  The designer has to make sure that the signal rides well with the alterations within the tolerable limits of  passive and activie devices and that the reconbined positive and negatives halves of the amplified signal in a push-pull configuration has the least crossover distortion at full amplificaition and is virtually identical to the input signal (except amplitude) before sending it to the speaker voice coils.  Heck, even crossover networks inverts the signals, 1st order is 90 degrees out of phase, second order is 180 degress, etc.  

Offline audiovoodo

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Every electronic device, whether tube or ss, will manupulate a signal.  Every gain stage has a phase shift time delay introduced into the signal.  The designer has to make sure that the signal rides well with the alterations within the tolerable limits of  passive and activie devices and that the reconbined positive and negatives halves of the amplified signal in a push-pull configuration has the least crossover distortion at full amplificaition and is virtually identical to the input signal (except amplitude) before sending it to the speaker voice coils.  

Crossover distortion is crossover distortion...only true class A biased amps avoid crossover distortion. Crossover distortion occurs when the transistor switches on or off. This occurs in the very low voltages. When you play loud volumes (which I don't often) the delicacy of the music is masked!

You are correct every stage has manipulation and phase shift, but just imagine an overall feedback from output to input, after the inherent phase shift of each stage!

Tolerable limits of components? So in short a designer designs his amp to sound as least colored and accurate as possible!  Now this least colored and accurate sound is according to his taste! His personal taste.

Paul Macgowan (formerly of PS Audio) wrote that by biasing transistor to heavy or light will result in faster or more euphonic sound (tubey).


Offline ArnieSwarzie

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Crossover distortion is crossover distortion...only true class A biased amps avoid crossover distortion. Crossover distortion occurs when the transistor switches on or off. This occurs in the very low voltages. When you play loud volumes (which I don't often) the delicacy of the music is masked!

You are correct every stage has manipulation and phase shift, but just imagine an overall feedback from output to input, after the inherent phase shift of each stage!

Tolerable limits of components? So in short a designer designs his amp to sound as least colored and accurate as possible!  Now this least colored and accurate sound is according to his taste! His personal taste.

Paul Macgowan (formerly of PS Audio) wrote that by biasing transistor to heavy or light will result in faster or more euphonic sound (tubey).



In the early years of SS, crossover distortion is really a challenge in the SS amp. but technology just go forward and make the run arounds. You maybe surprised to look at the actual signal generation of a classB amp - you will not be able to determine what is classA and what is classB except for the heat it generates.

There is not much you can do on the power amp stage - it is all linear device regarless of designer, and with present technology, it is almost perfect reproduction of what comes in from your preamp output. The SS amp technology does not changed for a long time, only transistors and biasing techniques have been improved.

The revolution, especially with our generation, is in the pre-amp levels - digitizing everything. In the digital domain, as contrasted in analog devices of a preamp, will not affect the overall frequency spectrum, but only the pinpointed portion you want to alter - and introduction of noise is not a factor in such alteration. Ad putting it in consumerism concept, put down the cost terribly.

I am not too sure what you mean heavy or light biasing of transistors - transistor has its bias specs in order to perform as designed.

Offline akyatbundok

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sirs, when i look inside my amps, i see a plastic knob labeled "BIAS ADJ"... i assume it is for adjusting the bias?  how does it affect the sound?