Author Topic: Cd players capable of 24bit 192khz processing  (Read 9204 times)

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Offline Timithekid

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Cd players capable of 24bit 192khz processing
« on: Nov 05, 2012 at 06:24 PM »
Whenever i visit record stores i always notice the expensive audiophile remastering cd's and was wondering what cd players are able to maximize/properly decode these hifi cd's...post away please...the more that are mentioned the better..if you know the price thats even better. :)


NOTE TO MODS: i know there is a thread about cd players below 15k but i think this one is a more particular thread, if this is considered as a topic that should fall under that thead then i dont mind if its consolidated...thanks!
« Last Edit: Nov 05, 2012 at 06:50 PM by Timithekid »
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Offline Courage

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Re: Cd players capable of 24bit 192khz processing
« Reply #1 on: Nov 05, 2012 at 06:31 PM »
Eto mas mataas pa

Dual differential mono mode, 24 bit/ 384 kHz

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Offline raider125jeigh

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Re: Cd players capable of 24bit 192khz processing
« Reply #2 on: Nov 05, 2012 at 06:51 PM »
newer ones 32bit
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Offline Timithekid

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Re: Cd players capable of 24bit 192khz processing
« Reply #3 on: Nov 05, 2012 at 06:58 PM »
Eto mas mataas pa

Dual differential mono mode, 24 bit/ 384 kHz



At $12,500...mga 10 taong ipon ang kailangan ko dyan lol
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Offline sientobente

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Re: Cd players capable of 24bit 192khz processing
« Reply #4 on: Nov 05, 2012 at 07:02 PM »
if you want a cheap brand new dedicated cdp, the nad 515bee should be able to do the job properly. around 15.5k lang ata yun.
« Last Edit: Nov 05, 2012 at 07:02 PM by sientobente »

Offline Stagea

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Re: Cd players capable of 24bit 192khz processing
« Reply #5 on: Nov 05, 2012 at 11:47 PM »
Whenever i visit record stores i always notice the expensive audiophile remastering cd's and was wondering what cd players are able to maximize/properly decode these hifi cd's...post away please...the more that are mentioned the better..if you know the price thats even better. :)

The quoted remastering resolution has nothing to do with the CD's actual data. The Red Book specifies 2-channel signed 16-bit Linear PCM sampled at 44,100 Hz. Compact Disc Digital Audio only comes with this data. Whatever you see in the cover is just there to make it look good. It tells you the resolution that the the engineers used while they were fixing the recording, but it would still be reverted to 44.1/16 before being placed in a CD.

There is no need for a special CD player to "decode" these discs because they have no extra data to unravel. These are still plain old CDs. The only CDDA-compatible discs that can benefit from extra decoding are HDCDs and Hybrid formats (Hybrid SACD and the rare CD-compatible DVD-As).

The sad part is that many of these remastered CDs being marketed as "audiophile" material are highly compressed in terms of dynamic range.

Offline Courage

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Re: Cd players capable of 24bit 192khz processing
« Reply #6 on: Nov 05, 2012 at 11:51 PM »
The quoted remastering resolution has nothing to do with the CD's actual data. The Red Book specifies 2-channel signed 16-bit Linear PCM sampled at 44,100 Hz. Compact Disc Digital Audio only comes with this data. Whatever you see in the cover is just there to make it look good. It tells you the resolution that the the engineers used while they were fixing the recording, but it would still be reverted to 44.1/16 before being placed in a CD.

There is no need for a special CD player to "decode" these discs because they have no extra data to unravel. These are still plain old CDs. The only CDDA-compatible discs that can benefit from extra decoding are HDCDs and Hybrid formats (Hybrid SACD and the rare CD-compatible DVD-As).

The sad part is that many of these remastered CDs being marketed as "audiophile" material are highly compressed in terms of dynamic range.


I guess kung gusto talaga nang 24/192.. Kelangan a CD player connected to an upsampling dac that's capable of 24/192? Tama ba sir Stagea?
The quoted remastering resolution has nothing to do with the CD's actual data. The Red Book specifies 2-channel signed 16-bit Linear PCM sampled at 44,100 Hz. Compact Disc Digital Audio only comes with this data. Whatever you see in the cover is just there to make it look good. It tells you the resolution that the the engineers used while they were fixing the recording, but it would still be reverted to 44.1/16 before being placed in a CD.

There is no need for a special CD player to "decode" these discs because they have no extra data to unravel. These are still plain old CDs. The only CDDA-compatible discs that can benefit from extra decoding are HDCDs and Hybrid formats (Hybrid SACD and the rare CD-compatible DVD-As).

The sad part is that many of these remastered CDs being marketed as "audiophile" material are highly compressed in terms of dynamic range.


So since yung content is 44.1 lang.. pag nag play ka sa CD player na may 24/192 dac.. i upsample nya yun before i convert to analog right?
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Offline Timithekid

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Re: Cd players capable of 24bit 192khz processing
« Reply #7 on: Nov 05, 2012 at 11:59 PM »
I guess kung gusto talaga nang 24/192.. Kelangan a CD player connected to an upsampling dac that's capable of 24/192? Tama ba sir Stagea?
So since yung content is 44.1 lang.. pag nag play ka sa CD player na may 24/192 dac.. i upsample nya yun before i convert to analog right?

actually im gearing towards this question also...if the CD player is capable of 24/192...wala na dapat need for a DAC diba?
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Offline Stagea

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Re: Cd players capable of 24bit 192khz processing
« Reply #8 on: Nov 06, 2012 at 12:07 AM »
I guess kung gusto talaga nang 24/192.. Kelangan a CD player connected to an upsampling dac that's capable of 24/192? Tama ba sir Stagea?
Hindi po boss. If it's still a CD player that plays store-bought CDs, it's still 44.1/16.

So since yung content is 44.1 lang.. pag nag play ka sa CD player na may 24/192 dac.. i upsample nya yun before i convert to analog right?

Yes, upsampling lang yan to shift aliasing beyond the audible range (and to make filtering it out easier). It may also get the DAC chip to work at a rate where linearity is better.

The source data is the same, so you're still playing 44.1/16. A good CD player (and/or DAC) will just handle that data better than a mediocre one.

actually im gearing towards this question also...if the CD player is capable of 24/192...wala na dapat need for a DAC diba?

CD players have DACs. An external DAC is just that, a DAC that's not integrated into other components.
« Last Edit: Nov 06, 2012 at 12:13 AM by Stagea »

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Re: Cd players capable of 24bit 192khz processing
« Reply #9 on: Nov 06, 2012 at 01:54 PM »
The quoted remastering resolution has nothing to do with the CD's actual data. The Red Book specifies 2-channel signed 16-bit Linear PCM sampled at 44,100 Hz. Compact Disc Digital Audio only comes with this data. Whatever you see in the cover is just there to make it look good. It tells you the resolution that the the engineers used while they were fixing the recording, but it would still be reverted to 44.1/16 before being placed in a CD.

The only CDDA-compatible discs that can benefit from extra decoding are HDCDs and Hybrid formats (Hybrid SACD and the rare CD-compatible DVD-As).


On HDCDs, what are the audible/ noticeable differences from the normal 44.1/16?  Also, since most receivers will have its own DAC/ preamp section, will the audio output still contain the HDCD data? Or is there also a need for specific hardware on the amplifier?
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Offline Stagea

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Re: Cd players capable of 24bit 192khz processing
« Reply #10 on: Nov 06, 2012 at 03:54 PM »
On HDCDs, what are the audible/ noticeable differences from the normal 44.1/16?  Also, since most receivers will have its own DAC/ preamp section, will the audio output still contain the HDCD data? Or is there also a need for specific hardware on the amplifier?

The player needs to be capable of decoding HDCD data to get something out of this. If you're connecting the player to an AVR, then the player would have to decode the data for transmission to the AVR. HDCD capable AVRs are preferred, but there are players that pad the data for compatibility with non-HDCD AVRs (Oppo players are common examples).

Whether you get an improvement from this or not depends on the data in the disc. You can get improved resolution and dynamic range if the recording company actually took advantage of the HDCD format.

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Re: Cd players capable of 24bit 192khz processing
« Reply #11 on: Nov 06, 2012 at 09:14 PM »
The player needs to be capable of decoding HDCD data to get something out of this. If you're connecting the player to an AVR, then the player would have to decode the data for transmission to the AVR. HDCD capable AVRs are preferred, but there are players that pad the data for compatibility with non-HDCD AVRs (Oppo players are common examples).

Whether you get an improvement from this or not depends on the data in the disc. You can get improved resolution and dynamic range if the recording company actually took advantage of the HDCD format.

Thanks for this.  So, it's only the CDP that needs to decode the data.  I thought that any DAC or decoder on the amplifier would end up reverting things to a non-HDCD.
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Offline synchro_01

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Re: Cd players capable of 24bit 192khz processing
« Reply #12 on: Nov 07, 2012 at 01:02 AM »
Question...my system doesn't have HDCD, SACD but when I use the JVC XRCD or SACD encoded discs super linis ng soundstage. Is it just the quality of the recording?

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Offline Stagea

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Re: Cd players capable of 24bit 192khz processing
« Reply #13 on: Nov 07, 2012 at 02:22 AM »
Thanks for this.  So, it's only the CDP that needs to decode the data.  I thought that any DAC or decoder on the amplifier would end up reverting things to a non-HDCD.

That depends on the CDP. A CDP that pads to high res PCM will work with non-HDCD DACs. Traditional HDCD players do not.



Question...my system doesn't have HDCD, SACD but when I use the JVC XRCD or SACD encoded discs super linis ng soundstage. Is it just the quality of the recording?

XRCDs are just plain CDs, they don't contain any extra data to decode. XRCD is a process that supposedly helps make better Red Book / CDDA discs. Hybrid SACDs play like regular CDs when put into a CD player.

The improvement that you're noticing is because of the quality of the recording, and not because of the format.

Offline synchro_01

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Re: Cd players capable of 24bit 192khz processing
« Reply #14 on: Nov 07, 2012 at 08:39 AM »
Stagea,

Thanks for the clarification.
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Offline JoeyGS

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Re: Cd players capable of 24bit 192khz processing
« Reply #15 on: Nov 07, 2012 at 11:04 AM »
The Cayin CD-50T uses the Burr Brown Dac chip PCM1732.  It's capable of 24-bit data, 96khz sampling frequncy.  I doubt if it upsamples the red book CD.

It is also HDCD capable with 8x oversampling digital filter with decoder

http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/BurrBrown/mXrstsq.pdf

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Re: Cd players capable of 24bit 192khz processing
« Reply #16 on: Nov 08, 2012 at 07:02 PM »
Thx sir Joey...
Other Cayin CD Player with upsampling,
CD11T 24bit/192kHz  PCM1792,
CD100i 24bit/192kHz PCM1792,
CDT-17A 24bit/192kHz, Dual PCM1792, 14 Opamps (7/channel)

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Offline resident_evil

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Re: Cd players capable of 24bit 192khz processing
« Reply #17 on: Nov 09, 2012 at 01:08 AM »
Does Cayin have a SACD player?
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Re: Cd players capable of 24bit 192khz processing
« Reply #18 on: Nov 09, 2012 at 07:27 AM »
Digital data stored as red book format in cd is just a representation of the actual analog signal that has been recorded, and the representation is far from actual. If for example a smooth analog sine wave is recorded, it will be stored on the cd as digital data. When the digital data is converted back to analog, the result is an almost jagged sine wave (not smooth anymore).  The output is called a quantized signal. The difference between the quantized signal and the input analog signal is called quantization noise. Capacitors are normally used to smoothen the quantized signal so that quantization noise is minimized.

Sampling resolution plays a big part in minimizing the quantization noise. The smoother the quantized signal, the lesser the noise. Now in the case of red book which is stored as 44 khz/16 bits, upsampling of DACs is supposed to increase the result sampling rate, for example from 44 khz to 192 khz. This is being done via various techniques and algorithm. How effective this upsampling algorithms and techniques remains to be debatable. In essence upsampling devices are just performing intelligent interpolation to improve the resolution of the quantized signal. The smoother the quantized signal, the smoother the output analog signal (remember the smooth input sine wave).

True analog signal is redundant thats why signal remains intelligible even if quantization noise is huge. However, listening pleasure for most of us in my opinion depends on the quality of the output signal our equipments produce. My personal opinion, the closer the form of the output to the input, the better the quality. I guess thats why there are people who are still into analog.

 

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Re: Cd players capable of 24bit 192khz processing
« Reply #19 on: Nov 09, 2012 at 07:47 AM »
^ i like this explanation...easier for the less technical to understand.  The way it sounds though is no different from discussions about 120hz and 240hz capable tv's and how interpolation is inserted in to the original film.
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Re: Cd players capable of 24bit 192khz processing
« Reply #20 on: Nov 09, 2012 at 08:12 AM »
Sampling resolution plays a big part in minimizing the quantization noise. The smoother the quantized signal, the lesser the noise. Now in the case of red book which is stored as 44 khz/16 bits, upsampling of DACs is supposed to increase the result sampling rate, for example from 44 khz to 192 khz. This is being done via various techniques and algorithm. How effective this upsampling algorithms and techniques remains to be debatable. In essence upsampling devices are just performing intelligent interpolation to improve the resolution of the quantized signal. The smoother the quantized signal, the smoother the output analog signal (remember the smooth input sine wave).

There are a few points that I'd like to add:

1. The input wave before sampling is almost never perfectly smooth, so even the perfect interpolation filter cannot recover what was lost in sampling. Upsampling will never gain back lost resolution, and errors from requantization can actually diminish quality somewhat before the conversion to analogue happens. Selecting the right filter for the job is also difficult, as what may be great at 20kHz may do a terrible job at 1kHz. Makers generally select a safe algorithm to minimize damage to the signal, and this means that interpolation largely only benefits the upper frequency ranges.

Here's a DAC output plot from an upsampled redbook signal (1kHz sinewave):


Here's the output of the same DAC fed with a high resolution signal (1kHz sinewave):


2. Upsampling with interpolation is performed to diminish the errors/losses in digital to analog conversion, and not to "improve" the source. This gives the converter more data points for a possibly more consistent/predictable output.

Here's an example of what can happen if we don't keep a tight digital leash on a DAC (redbook 1kHz sinewave through NOS DAC):


This is a far less consistent output, but is closer to what vinyl fans are used to (due to manufacturing tolerances and deterioration). This is why some people say that NOS DACs sound more "analogue" to them.

3. The only absolute advantage of upsampling is the very same advantage of oversampling. It is shifting temporal aliasing to a region where it can be easily managed with simple filters (which thus minimizes damage to the usable part of the output -- reducing top end roll off and phase shift).

If implemented properly, upsampling can improve the performance of a CD player. However, it can never improve the quality of the source -- the device is limited by the sampling rate and the sampling resolution of its data feed.
« Last Edit: Nov 09, 2012 at 08:59 AM by Stagea »

Offline oyie_delapaz

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Re: Cd players capable of 24bit 192khz processing
« Reply #21 on: Nov 09, 2012 at 08:31 AM »
^ i like this explanation...easier for the less technical to understand.  The way it sounds though is no different from discussions about 120hz and 240hz capable tv's and how interpolation is inserted in to the original film.

Also the same concept as dvd upscaling from 480p to 720p.

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Re: Cd players capable of 24bit 192khz processing
« Reply #22 on: Nov 09, 2012 at 10:00 PM »
Sir timi pa ride ako sa thread nyo,
Question mga sirs,
My friend is selling his pioneer dvd player (surplus unit), i will use it as cd player sana.
Here is the specs:
Audio
Surround Sound:   Built-In Dolby Digital Decoder
Dialog Enhancer:   Yes
Audio DAC:   24 bit / 192 kHz

Does it mean na ok sya as cd player? Pardon my ignorance. Newbie here. Thank you guys.

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Re: Cd players capable of 24bit 192khz processing
« Reply #23 on: Nov 09, 2012 at 11:33 PM »
Does it mean na ok sya as cd player? Pardon my ignorance. Newbie here. Thank you guys.


No. That spec says nothing about the product's performance as a CD player. It just tells you that the DAC that they put in can handle 24/192.

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Re: Cd players capable of 24bit 192khz processing
« Reply #24 on: Nov 09, 2012 at 11:45 PM »
No. That spec says nothing about the product's performance as a CD player. It just tells you that the DAC that they put in can handle 24/192.
Noted. Thank you sir.

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Re: Cd players capable of 24bit 192khz processing
« Reply #25 on: Nov 10, 2012 at 12:17 AM »
Sir timi pa ride ako sa thread nyo,
Question mga sirs,
My friend is selling his pioneer dvd player (surplus unit), i will use it as cd player sana.
Here is the specs:
Audio
Surround Sound:   Built-In Dolby Digital Decoder
Dialog Enhancer:   Yes
Audio DAC:   24 bit / 192 kHz

Does it mean na ok sya as cd player? Pardon my ignorance. Newbie here. Thank you guys.


by all means, ride away my friend.  but why buy a dvd player? gagamitin mo ba sir as a multi player? (cd and dvd) or pang cd lang?  if the former, get a bluray player instead, meron sa MP natin 3.5k lang na samsung.  kung pang CD lang, dami din sa MP with varying prices, some as low as 1k. :)
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Re: Cd players capable of 24bit 192khz processing
« Reply #26 on: Nov 10, 2012 at 12:56 PM »
by all means, ride away my friend.  but why buy a dvd player? gagamitin mo ba sir as a multi player? (cd and dvd) or pang cd lang?  if the former, get a bluray player instead, meron sa MP natin 3.5k lang na samsung.  kung pang CD lang, dami din sa MP with varying prices, some as low as 1k. :)
As a cd player lang sana sir. Yes, i saw it in the marketplace. Medyo busy lang lately kaya di ko mapuntahan ang seller.