Topic: power cable

[Nelson de Leon]

that's my way of emphasizing things.....

consider that a gage #20 is common for pc cables, and #18 is better, and then #12 is even better, #8 is betterer.....then by this logic, #4 or even #0 is bettererest.....where does it end? there is more to hifi than power cables....

Ano pa kaya kung 400 mcm. Haha!

For me, i think both connectors and wires are important. Maski tama ang connectors mo, kung undersize naman ang wires (i think this is what doc Fer was trying to emphasize), it's possible din na masunog ang wires because iinit ang wires kung it's drawing current more than it's capacity, causing the insulation to melt. Most/some insulators are made of PVC which has a lower melting point (120-160 degrees) than polyethylenes (140-200 degrees).

[bass_nut]

exactly !! thanks, Master Nelson !!  

[ATJr.]

no. you focused on electrical arc and it seem like you refuted/negated cable overload which is also a possible cause specially with 3 actual occurrence i mentioned previously. am i right ?

wrong........cables used on equipment are seldom overloaded, in the #20 typical,(is good up to about 300watts,) to #16 in some cases, a #16 power cord about  2 meters long is good up to about 800watts........remember those japanese amps? even so called high end like the ONKYO integras's used dinky cords, wala pa akong nabalitaan na nasunog na bahay using those japanese gears.......nor the cables themselves got burned, merong fuses yong mga yon to prevent fires....wrong application can cause fires, not the cables themselves.....

[ATJr.]

Ano pa kaya kung 400 mcm. Haha!

For me, i think both connectors and wires are important. Maski tama ang connectors mo, kung undersize naman ang wires (i think this is what doc Fer was trying to emphasize), it's possible din na masunog ang wires because iinit ang wires kung it's drawing current more than it's capacity, causing the insulation to melt. Most/some insulators are made of PVC which has a lower melting point (120-160 degrees) than polyethylenes (140-200 degrees).

poorly designed equipment can suffer this fate....btw, nelson, nagawi ka ba sa dusit?

[rascal101]

wrong........cables used on equipment are seldom overloaded, in the #20 typical,(is good up to about 300watts,) to #16 in some cases, a #16 power cord about  2 meters long is good up to about 800watts........remember those japanese amps? even so called high end like the ONKYO integras's used dinky cords, wala pa akong nabalitaan na nasunog na bahay using those japanese gears.......nor the cables themselves got burned, merong fuses yong mga yon to prevent fires....wrong application can cause fires, not the cables themselves.....

I believe those dinky cords you refer to have proper wire gauge. Further, seldom do legit manufacturers have underrated built in power cords.

I think it is when you have an equipment wherein consumers are free to choose what power cord to use lies the problem. Whether the power cable has incorrect wire gauge hence lower current rating than required or its connector is loose, they are both safety problems.

[JojoD818]

in the latest Dusit event where i displayed a 6C33 set amp, the actual power draw was 220watts for an output of 20 watts, the actual current was just over 1 ampere....if you look at the copper wire table, a #24 would have been enough as power cord.....i used #18 instead....more than enough....using bigger than that is a waste of my money imho...but you are free to waste yours, after all it is your money....

let's look at it this way, I'm sure that you, among other people will agree that nowadays, it is better to "overrate" your wires because the wires themselves are being "underrated" by the manufacturers.

the only "waste" I can think of is not using it and just putting it up on display.

walang basagan ng trip......

kung saan ka masaya, go for it......

i am merely pointing out all possible sides to this....

in this hobby, some details are oftentimes left out....maybe because the proponents themselves are not in the know........i would like to give readers a chance to see the bigger picture and then decide....an informed decision is the best imho....

ay siyempre naman hehehe...  I'd go safety up front before performance. enjoy lang...

[bass_nut]

wrong........cables used on equipment are seldom overloaded, in the #20 typical,(is good up to about 300watts,) to #16 in some cases, a #16 power cord about  2 meters long is good up to about 800watts........remember those japanese amps? even so called high end like the ONKYO integras's used dinky cords, wala pa akong nabalitaan na nasunog na bahay using those japanese gears.......nor the cables themselves got burned, merong fuses yong mga yon to prevent fires....wrong application can cause fires, not the cables themselves.....

repeat again for the second twice   
3 actual burnt oem power cables.. same model amps.


at least, you used the word "seldom" in here =>

cables used on equipment are seldom overloaded

however, is this a universal truth ? as in there is NO such thing as overloaded cables ? =>

not the cables themselves.

re-posting =>
tell me these articles/readings are all wrong as in your words are the ONLY universal truth, ALL the time   

1) Overloading may have caused short-circuit
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-05-24/vadodara/31839883_1_fire-brigade-overloading-power-cables


2) Effect of Over Current on Cables
http://sourcing.indiamart.com/electrical/articles/effect-over-current-cables/

Over Current
In any wiring system, over-current is one of the two main safety hazards that should be in control. It is very risky and dangerous because it lead to a risk of fire. Most of the fire accidents are caused due to electrical faults. A fuse or MCB of the same current rating as the cable should be selected to work properly.

Over current is an increment in the amount of current above certain level. Cables become heated when current flows through them and it is a normal process. The level of heat is permissible only up to a specific point and any thing above it would be dangerous.

3) Overcurrent Coordination Basics Cables
http://www.skm.com/applicationguides8.html

•   If current penetrates the limits of the thermal overload curve, cable insulation life is reduced.
•   If the maximum thru-fault current penetrates the limits of the short circuit damage curve, insulation damage will occur. The thru-fault current is defined as the maximum current that can flow for a fault at the load-side terminals of the feeder.

[ATJr.]

i purchased cheap power cords from the streets of Raon....when i got home, and tested them, only one worked, the other 5 cords either had only one conductor, and the conductor was not even copper.....

lesson learned, there are unscrupulous vendors of power cords out there.....

another lesson posted by doc Fer, do not waste your money on equipment that burns power cables.....

Doc Fer, i see no conflict with the articles you posted to what i am saying all along....in fact they compliment and reinforce my posts....i see no point to comment on them further....

use the right cable for the job and you will have no issues....

[ATJr.]

let's look at it this way, I'm sure that you, among other people will agree that nowadays, it is better to "overrate" your wires because the wires themselves are being "underrated" by the manufacturers.

the only "waste" I can think of is not using it and just putting it up on display.


ay siyempre naman hehehe...  I'd go safety up front before performance. enjoy lang...

i can accept some overrating, that is why i gave the example wherein a #24 would have sufficed yet i used a #18, siguro naman okey na yan......wag naman sana na parang ipangwewelding mo na yung amplifier mo sa laki ng power cord....

[ATJr.]

I believe those dinky cords you refer to have proper wire gauge. Further, seldom do legit manufacturers have underrated built in power cords.

I think it is when you have an equipment wherein consumers are free to choose what power cord to use lies the problem. Whether the power cable has incorrect wire gauge hence lower current rating than required or its connector is loose, they are both safety problems.

yes, they knew what they were doing......but for those manufacturers na nasusunugan ng power cords, aba e dapat itakwil yan....

[ATJr.]

@all, i am not saying that you all agree to what i say..........get the power cord that gives you the feeling of well-being, after all it is your money.......not for me to say what cable you should buy.........i am an electrical engineering practitioner that is why i post my opinions.......you can have your opinions too..... 

[JojoD818]

i can accept some overrating, that is why i gave the example wherein a #24 would have sufficed yet i used a #18, siguro naman okey na yan......wag naman sana na parang ipangwewelding mo na yung amplifier mo sa laki ng power cord....

oo naman, pero pwede din yun malay mo gusto gamitin extension cord ng welding machine... 

@all, i am not saying that you all agree to what i say..........get the power cord that gives you the feeling of well-being, after all it is your money.......not for me to say what cable you should buy.........i am an electrical engineering practitioner that is why i post my opinions.......you can have your opinions too..... 

siyempre entitled naman lahat sa opinion... and my opinion is get reasonably gauged power cord/wires not for performance, not for well being nor the money but for safety's sake. di naman biro ang maging fire hazard...

[JojoD818]

I believe those dinky cords you refer to have proper wire gauge. Further, seldom do legit manufacturers have underrated built in power cords.

I think it is when you have an equipment wherein consumers are free to choose what power cord to use lies the problem. Whether the power cable has incorrect wire gauge hence lower current rating than required or its connector is loose, they are both safety problems.

+1

[Onkyo606]

sa power cord ba eh opinyon pa din ang nag drive eh di ba mesureable ang properties ng mga yan?

on another note, ngayon ko lang na realize dudugo pala ilong ko kung intindihin ko lahat ng usapan tungkol sa power cord

siguro kung nagandahan ako sa itsura ng power cord at plugs at safe naman gamit mo, ok na yun sa akin, kung gusto ko magandang tunog, palit na lang ako ng mga gamit, mahirap naman yatang maglabas ng baka ang kalabaw.

[bass_nut]

i purchased cheap power cords from the streets of Raon....when i got home, and tested them, only one worked, the other 5 cords either had only one conductor, and the conductor was not even copper.....

lesson learned, there are unscrupulous vendors of power cords out there.....

i agree

==========================================

another lesson posted by doc Fer, do not waste your money on equipment that burns power cables.....

correction:
it was not the Little Dot mk II amps (not japanese amp nor onkyo amp) at fault as these were working well before and after the oem power cable of each unit got burnt.

Doc Fer, i see no conflict with the articles you posted to what i am saying all along....in fact they compliment and reinforce my posts....i see no point to comment on them further....

on the contrary, the 3 url links were about overloaded wires/cables which DID NOT compliment nor reinforce most of your statements. hence, you refuse to comment on the substance found on those links ?

use the right cable for the job and you will have no issues....

agree

=====================================================

@all, i am not saying that you all agree to what i say..........get the power cord that gives you the feeling of well-being, after all it is your money.......not for me to say what cable you should buy.........i am an electrical engineering practitioner that is why i post my opinions.......you can have your opinions too..... 

it is not the power cable that causes fires, the loose socket outlets are.....loose sockets are bad news anytime....anywhere...it should be avoided at all cost....

remember those japanese amps? even so called high end like the ONKYO integras's used dinky cords, wala pa akong nabalitaan na nasunog na bahay using those japanese gears.......nor the cables themselves got burned, merong fuses yong mga yon to prevent fires....wrong application can cause fires, not the cables themselves.....

electrical engineer ? yet, you keep claiming "it is NOT the cable but the.."
again, the 3 url links point to the opposite direction. i am guessing the writers/investigators of those url links were also "in the know". after all, there are numerous reliable practicing electrical engineers out there.

slightly off topic (non-audio, non-HT):
a few years ago when i submitted to the proper authorities the electrical plan of our planned house the city electrical engineer reviewed and corrected some section of the plan. she said "baka ma-overload ang wires na naka-schedule (according to the plan) sa kitchen ninyo at baka magkasunog. kaya dapat ay lakihan ang mga wires para SAFE". i followed her sensible advise and i was thankful she was diligent being our city electrical engineer.

=======================================

poorly designed equipment can suffer this fate...<snp>

possible. but NOT ALWAYS the case.
repeat: the 3 units of LD mk II (not japanese amps nor onkyo amp) worked properly before and after the supplied oem cables burnt. inexpensive (~P85/meter sa suking hardware store) DIY power cords made these 3 amps sing again 

[ATJr.]

i have said my piece.....i leave you to your opinion.....use the proper cable for the job and you will have no problem.....i fully understand the issues involved with undersized wires, i apply the principle on a daily basis.....i have yet to lose a traffo due to undersized wire.....hindi pa ako nasunugan ng transformer in normal use, i would like to think that i must be doing something right.....

[ATJr.]

sa power cord ba eh opinyon pa din ang nag drive eh di ba mesureable ang properties ng mga yan?

on another note, ngayon ko lang na realize dudugo pala ilong ko kung intindihin ko lahat ng usapan tungkol sa power cord

siguro kung nagandahan ako sa itsura ng power cord at plugs at safe naman gamit mo, ok na yun sa akin, kung gusto ko magandang tunog, palit na lang ako ng mga gamit, mahirap naman yatang maglabas ng baka ang kalabaw.

everything you read here are opinions.....it is up to you find out which are facts....

[odyopayl]

will aftermarket power cables make any difference? I was just thinking that the ones provided by the manufacturer of amps,avrs,subs etc should be sufficient to what their equipment requires.

Is there a rule of thumb lets say "x watts = y gauge"

Stock cables especially manufactured in China  (most) really underrated and crap. The effect is not directly on the audio side but reliability and safety. Power Cable structures doesn't end on the thickness of wires but also the quality of Termination and Built.  Answering the original post, for me yes it makes a difference.
There are cable manufacturer makes a ridiculous claims and break the bank prices which are really over kill. However, as I read the replies here, we are not talking about the exotic cables but a real DIY option to make a   BETTER alternative on power cables.
For me, the main reason why I replaced and build all my Audio Gears Power Cables is for Reliability and Safety. When it comes to connectors I have my own Philosophy "Connect and Forget". I'm sure some of our Friends here when they connect their gears it will take them years to unplug them because they are not changing their gears often.
To some will not agree but if you spend on audio upgrade why not the POWER cables??

[JojoD818]

Sino ang kumakain ng tamales dito? 







Noon bata pa ako, isang piraso lang di ko maubos kasi ang laki laki ng laman sa loob! SARAP!!!

Ngayon, parang power cord na ang tamales... ang kapal-kapal ng balot, ang liit liit ng laman... 


 

[odyopayl]

Sino ang kumakain ng tamales dito? 







Noon bata pa ako, isang piraso lang di ko maubos kasi ang laki laki ng laman sa loob! SARAP!!!

Ngayon, parang power cord na ang tamales... ang kapal-kapal ng balot, ang liit liit ng laman... 


 

Ginutom akong Bigla sa Post mo brother Jo! exact analogy!

[rascal101]

Sino ang kumakain ng tamales dito? 







Noon bata pa ako, isang piraso lang di ko maubos kasi ang laki laki ng laman sa loob! SARAP!!!

Ngayon, parang power cord na ang tamales... ang kapal-kapal ng balot, ang liit liit ng laman... 


 

Sarap niyan Sir. Samahan niyo na lang ng inumin solve na.

[JojoD818]

Ginutom akong Bigla sa Post mo brother Jo! exact analogy!

Manyaman! Tama ba? Sensiya na yun lang alam ko Kapangpangan...

Sarap niyan Sir. Samahan niyo na lang ng inumin solve na.

Sir,

Minsan lusubin natin si Odyopayl nasa Pampanga siya madami tamales at puto seko dun...

[Onkyo606]

everything you read here are opinions.....it is up to you find out which are facts....

naku sir tony babasahin ko na lang di na kaya ng powers ko alamin ang facts

[Nelson de Leon]

Sir,
Minsan lusubin natin si Odyopayl nasa Pampanga siya madami tamales at puto seko dun...

Sama ako jan.

[dodie]

Theres your rule of thumb, thick wallet + psychological "improvement" + porma = "better" cables

not applicable to me though hehe, thin wallet eh

Sir ernest, walang may  thin wallet na nakatira sa gitna ng eastwood(literally)!
Dapat sayo shunyata cables at hydra line conditioner!

[at_sunset_blvd]

Forgive for my egg-norance ano ito filipino pizza? Looks tasty ah 

[JojoD818]

Forgive for my egg-norance ano ito filipino pizza? Looks tasty ah 

It's a Kapampangan version of the Mexican Tamales sir. Medyo spicy siya and the banana leaves used to make them are supposed to also add some flavor to the Tamales.

The banana leaves are more like the "insulating covers" of our power cords, tthn, thwn, tw, thw, etc etc etc.

[bass_nut]

off topic:

original Suman and Tamales Cabalatian Pampanga 


on topic:
we use properly sized THHN wires for our home electrical wiring that feed all electrically powered appliances, including audio and HT gears 

[karloff]

^di yata maluluto yan kung wala ito

[JojoD818]

off topic:

original Suman and Tamales Cabalatian Pampanga 


on topic:
we use properly sized THHN wires for our home electrical wiring that feed all electrically powered appliances, including audio and HT gears 

As long as they are more than rated to carry our electrical loads... I am more concerned about the suman! I love the suman with fresh and ripe mangos!

I miss our Budol Fight at my cousin's house there at Villa Angela... the sugpo, the burong kanin with fish, the original sisig and chicharon with laman... oh the cholesterol!!!

^di yata maluluto yan kung wala ito

hhmmm... pwedeng magpalambot ng buto-buto or bulalo using that sir... or laman loob for papaitan... whew!