Topic: ICs matter

[resident_evil]

I used to believe that any discernible difference from using ICs will be subtle to the point that you can ignore them completely.

I am currently assembling my office set up using the following:

Vintage Fisher KX200 Tube Integrated Amplifier
Goldring Lenco GL75 Turntable

I could not eliminate the static/noise that the the turntable was producing no matter where I place the ground wire or change the outlets where the components were plugged. I cleaned everything. Re seated the tubes. Changed speaker cables. Change power cables. Pulled my hair and cursed at the world.

I then decided to change the ICs. ICs A and B produced static. ICs C and D did not. Now very happy.
I do not know how this happened but I think ICs really matter.

[Tempter]

Or just plain bad luck... 

[mbtorn]

I used to believe that any discernible difference from using ICs will be subtle to the point that you can ignore them completely.

I am currently assembling my office set up using the following:

Vintage Fisher KX200 Tube Integrated Amplifier
Goldring Lenco GL75 Turntable

I could not eliminate the static/noise that the the turntable was producing no matter where I place the ground wire or change the outlets where the components were plugged. I cleaned everything. Re seated the tubes. Changed speaker cables. Change power cables. Pulled my hair and cursed at the world.

I then decided to change the ICs. ICs A and B produced static. ICs C and D did not. Now very happy.
I do not know how this happened but I think ICs really matter.

Atty., may we know the ICs C and D you used?

[JojoD818]

Atty., may we know the ICs C and D you used?

It would be more interesting to know A, B, C, and D altogether rather than just C and D don't you think?

[mbtorn]

It would be more interesting to know A, B, C, and D altogether rather than just C and D don't you think?

Puede Sir Jojo. Not sure though if Atty. will be willing to disclose ICs A and B.

[Hammerheart]

very interesting topic atty.

[audiojunkie]

I'm not sure of this, but it could be how the cable was terminated.... ? 

naisip ko kasi bago pa dumating ang itong mga exotic cables that  costs $$$$, gamit noon lamp cord lang ok naman....     

[JojoD818]

I used to believe that any discernible difference from using ICs will be subtle to the point that you can ignore them completely.

I am currently assembling my office set up using the following:

Vintage Fisher KX200 Tube Integrated Amplifier
Goldring Lenco GL75 Turntable

I could not eliminate the static/noise that the the turntable was producing no matter where I place the ground wire or change the outlets where the components were plugged. I cleaned everything. Re seated the tubes. Changed speaker cables. Change power cables. Pulled my hair and cursed at the world.

I then decided to change the ICs. ICs A and B produced static. ICs C and D did not. Now very happy.
I do not know how this happened but I think ICs really matter.

I'm curious if ABC and D would still produce static if they were disconnected from your TT. Some cartridges are more sensitive to capacitive loading than others, couple this with the high gain of a phono preamp (~40dB or so) and you effectively have an oscillator. This is the same reason why most TTs have their ICs directly soldered/connected to the cart because connectors can add a few picofarads themselves.

[JojoD818]

Puede Sir Jojo. Not sure though if Atty. will be willing to disclose ICs A and B.

All in the interest of science sir mb, though I agree that some things are best left unknown.

[Timithekid]

It would be more interesting to know A, B, C, and D altogether rather than just C and D don't you think?

I agree with you master Jo, wag lang sana maging out of hand at maging bashing session about other ic's.

[mbtorn]

I'm curious if ABC and D would still produce static if they were disconnected from your TT. Some cartridges are more sensitive to capacitive loading than others, couple this with the high gain of a phono preamp (~40dB or so) and you effectively have an oscillator. This is the same reason why most TTs have their ICs directly soldered/connected to the cart because connectors can add a few picofarads themselves.

+100 totally agree with the observation of sir jojo.

[resident_evil]

C and D na lang bros Marlon and Jojo.  Although I'm not saying A and B are bad because I use them for my other components. It's just that the Turntable and amp are  probably very sensitive to static/noise.

C- Furutech Alpha Line
D- VDH the Bay

[resident_evil]

I have C right now and I tried it again against A and B. Same result. Will bring D tomorrow since it's at home but I tried it before bringing the gears to the office and it had no noise also.

Guys, please note that this thread is not intended to create a competition or debate on the best ICs out there. It is just an observation that I wanted to share since this forum is all about sharing experiences so that others may learn.

[JojoD818]

C and D na lang bros Marlon and Jojo.  Although I'm not saying A and B are bad because I use them for my other components. It's just that the Turntable and amp are  probably very sensitive to static/noise.

C- Furutech Alpha Line
D- VDH the Bay

Ok so I looked them up and those two ICs have two things in common... they are heavily shielded types and have relatively high capacitance (110pf/M). That is a tell-tale sign of noise cancelling properties.

Guys, please note that this thread is not intended to create a competition or debate on the best ICs out there. It is just an observation that I wanted to share since this forum is all about sharing experiences so that others may learn.

Of course sir, totally agree. Let's keep it technical at the moment so that we can find the reason behind why a piece of wire can give you headaches when setting up what is supposed to be a stress reliever.

[resident_evil]

yeah. haha. thanks for the research sir Jojo. I was actually relieved that the problem was solved by changing ICs since I do not really know much about electronics. i'm just a fan of good music.

[JojoD818]

yeah. haha. thanks for the research sir Jojo. I was actually relieved that the problem was solved by changing ICs since I do not really know much about electronics. i'm just a fan of good music.

On the contrary sir, there was not supposed to be a problem that needed solving in the first place. But as the title of the thread says, ICs matter, especially how and what they are made of.

Using A and B produced static because they were not able to fulfill the need of the TT > Phono Preamp transmission line specification. The sad part for most people who don't know about electronics will be to dispense A and B as inferior than C and D. Kudos to you for you did not.

Anyway, this can get a little bit techie but this is where the fun starts, or sometimes headaches.



Consider the image above where the signal from the cart is represented by a voltage source (Vc) and and inductor and resistor Lc and Rc. Another source of resistance would be the interconnect but since it would only account for a meter or so then it is dispensed as 0 already. The load resistance and interconnect ideal impedance is lumped as Ra.

Now, notice Ca, it is in fact the sum of the capacitance of the interconnect and the input capacitance of the phono preamp. For most electronics buffs, they will say that Rc and Ca actually forms a low pass filter, quite correct indeed but not noticing the effects of Lc is where they fail! These conditions actually forms an LC resonant tank and from the word resonant, it means something resonates... and we don't want something in front of a +40dB phono preamp resonating don't we?

[ATJr.]

sometimes the pins gets tarnished, the fitting get's loose...these things impacts the ic....

[resident_evil]

Thank you sir Jojo for the enlightenment. I enjoy this hobby primarily because of the sense of self fulfillment that it gives me and because of the nuggets of wisdom that I get from guys like you.

[JojoD818]

Thank you sir Jojo for the enlightenment. I enjoy this hobby primarily because of the sense of self fulfillment that it gives me and because of the nuggets of wisdom that I get from guys like you.

Your passion for good music will give you endless hours of enjoyment, a really essential part of this hobby in my opinion.

Always a pleasure.

[JojoD818]

sometimes the pins gets tarnished, the fitting get's loose...these things impacts the ic....

oh yeah, that's why they coined that the best connector is actually no connector at all... those oxidized pins can surely give a headache...

[sientobente]

Ok so I looked them up and those two ICs have two things in common... they are heavily shielded types and have relatively high capacitance (110pf/M). That is a tell-tale sign of noise cancelling properties.

great info master Jojo i also have D, i bought it mostly because of how it was built, i didn't know that they would also provide noise cancelling properties.

oh yeah, that's why they coined that the best connector is actually no connector at all... those oxidized pins can surely give a headache...

this is very true, i actually read from an interview from AJ Van Den Hul that the best connector is the shortest one or no connector at all, and that comes from a guy who sells ICs for a living 

[JojoD818]

great info master Jojo i also have D, i bought it mostly because of how it was built, i didn't know that they would also provide noise cancelling properties.

I meant that passively as it forms an "unintentional" low pass filter in conjunction with the other properties surrounding it's own specification.

this is very true, i actually read from an interview from AJ Van Den Hul that the best connector is the shortest one or no connector at all, and that comes from a guy who sells ICs for a living 

cool. maybe sir for some people, honesty is still a policy.

[Timithekid]

I meant that passively as it forms an "unintentional" low pass filter in conjunction with the other properties surrounding it's own specification.

cool. maybe sir for some people, honesty is still a policy.

Master Jo, would it then be safe to say that C & D are more "versatile" because of the passive properties that they have?  As you explained, they are not necessarily better but does it also follow that whatever purpose A & B can serve, so too can C & D?

[JojoD818]

Master Jo, would it then be safe to say that C & D are more "versatile" because of the passive properties that they have?  As you explained, they are not necessarily better but does it also follow that whatever purpose A & B can serve, so too can C & D?

In a manner of speaking, yes.

Unfortunately, in the audiophile world, A and B will most probably be more revealing and C and D will be veiled and in the dark side of things. This is spoken from experience though and must be taken with a grain of salt as it is my personal perception.

Bear in mind that an IC made to sustain constant bombardment of emi and rfi will most likely have interweaving shields and foils and what not. These, coupled with the most often than not teflon insulation can form more than desired capacitance ratings that would otherwise interfere with the natural bandwidth of the transmission line/IC.

Kaya minsan madidinig mo si Pedro na sinasabi kay Juan na yun daw IC niya ay mas mataba tumunog kaysa sa IC ni Juan. The truth being his IC has more capacitance per length unit.

[resident_evil]

In a manner of speaking, yes.

Unfortunately, in the audiophile world, A and B will most probably be more revealing and C and D will be veiled and in the dark side of things. This is spoken from experience though and must be taken with a grain of salt as it is my personal perception.

Bear in mind that an IC made to sustain constant bombardment of emi and rfi will most likely have interweaving shields and foils and what not. These, coupled with the most often than not teflon insulation can form more than desired capacitance ratings that would otherwise interfere with the natural bandwidth of the transmission line/IC.

Kaya minsan madidinig mo si Pedro na sinasabi kay Juan na yun daw IC niya ay mas mataba tumunog kaysa sa IC ni Juan. The truth being his IC has more capacitance per length unit.

This is very interesting sir Jojo. I will try to do an A-B of the 4 ICs without involving the Lenco TT and Fisher amp. Mas maganda if madami makikinig para hindi lang observation ko. I can volunteer my place. Medyo malayo lang sa kabihasnan.

[JojoD818]

This is very interesting sir Jojo. I will try to do an A-B of the 4 ICs without involving the Lenco TT and Fisher amp. Mas maganda if madami makikinig para hindi lang observation ko. I can volunteer my place. Medyo malayo lang sa kabihasnan.

A personal experiment is always a healthy one sir. Though observations in this hobby of ours can vary widely and be subjective, please do update us with your findings.

[gunslinger]

I'd like to revive this thread to help me on some questions/observations on ICs while testing a repaired vintage amp.

We have a vintage AKAI amp that was recently repaired. While testing AUX input, i noticed that the vocals coming from the amp sounded very far but the background music is normal. Tried to remove and reseat the ICs including the speaker wires but it sounded the same. I changed the speaker cables first but got the same result. I cycled through 3 set of speaker cables to no avail. These same speaker cables and speaker worked well with my Marantz and Harman Kardon that are relatively new and a vintage Onkyo amp.
I moved next to the ICs. I have 3 branded ICs and a couple of cheap ones that are included when you buy a TV or CD/DVD players. I cycled through all the branded ones but the sound was still the same. Imagine my surprise when one of the cheap ICs I tested finally worked. Tested the other cheap ICs but only one actually worked and sounded right. Repeated the same cycle for all ICs but got the same result.
To validate my findings, I tested all the ICs in my Marantz and vintage Onkyo and all of them worked. I was just surprised that only one of the ICs worked on the AKAI even if all other ICs worked with other amps.
My question now is what's with the cheap IC that worked with the AKAI amp? Can someone please point me in the right direction on what to check on the IC to find out this characteristic? I already tried google but my understanding on electronics is limited and I'm guessing I don't know the right way to frame my questions that is why I had dismal results.
Thanks in advance.

[ATJr.]

most likely and probably the rca jacks in your old AKAI.....a lot of those cheap ic's also work with old style rca jacks....

even for new ic's sometimes the plug does not mate well with the rca jacks, so what you are actually looking for is a good fit between the jacks and the plugs......

sexual compatibility is a really the key....... kung hindi swak na swak, hindi makakabuo ng magandang music.....

[JoeyGS]

Yes proper contact and interconnection is required to achieve orgasmic music reproduction 

Kidding aside, try cleaning the inner center portion of the RCA at the equipment as there may be corrosion which prevented good contact with your ICs.

[gunslinger]

I guess the explanation from Tony and Joey makes sense. I will check again the RCA jacks but I am pretty sure that they are clean since that was one of the things I did before cycling with the cables.
Anyway, I was hoping that there might be an explanation like resistance or capacitance in case I want to replace the IC that is working. It would also be interesting to know if the other ICs that did not work are either higher or lower in any of the ratings that could have affected the sound quality.