Topic: Bi-Wiring

[Courage]

there are so many debates about biwiring. some said there were improvements in biwiring.  IMO only the cable manufacturer believes in biwiring - just to increase sales.  

to achieve biwiring effect, without buying additional runs of cables, is to change your jumper (your link between high & low) with the same speaker cable you use from the receiver to speaker.  Most jumpers are made of brass - and this could be the weakest link in your system.

Bi-amping is another story...  

Why does the speaker manual says that to improve speaker perpormance u could either bi-wire or bi-amp?

[killer_eyes]

cc6 s2 alam ko pwede ding i bi-wire for a center speaker

nde ko pa sya na tatry siguro pag may time ako mag kalikot ulit ng system eh try ko mag bi wiring...

jason
nag try ka na ba?

[Courage]

Ill buy another set of wires and ill try it..maybe next week..tingan ko kung mag iimprove..pag hinde..nasayang ang 500 ko ehehehe

[killer_eyes]

sige ikaw muna mag try tapos after mo saka na ako mag tatry hehehe mayaman ka naman eh

[Courage]

sige ikaw muna mag try tapos after mo saka na ako mag tatry hehehe mayaman ka naman eh

Hehe langya ka talaga ruben ehehehehe

[levi]

bump

[rtsy]

There is only one sure way to find out if your system is worth bi-wiring and that is to try it.

Many speaker manufacturers such as Dynaudio and Sonus Faber took out bi-wiring in their models because it merely complicates things for their customers.

For those w/ bi-wireable speakers, if you have the $$$, then by all means, go ahead and try then buy if you like the effect, likely yes.

Replacing the jumper with cables similar to the single run you'll use as suggested earlier seems to more cost effective.  A trusted ear swears this methid gets you to 90% of the effect of bi-wiring.

Remember, a single run + jumper of good cables will beat a double run of mediocre cable.  Put your money where it matters more.

[av_phile]

What would be the threshold for quality speaker wires for bi-wiring purposes? Are those "oxygen-free" see-through speaker wires from  SM good enough? Or should I get the more exotic P70/meter wires from specialty hifi stores?   Have read that thicker gauge wires are bad for high frequencies.  In a bi-wiring configuration, should I just use thinner wires for the tweeter?

[rtsy]

What would be the threshold for quality speaker wires for bi-wiring purposes?

Alas, this depends on your budget.  My first set of good cables were Ixos 6003.  Don't know how much that is now.

Suggest you strike up a conversation with the number of Pinoydiophiles who've turned to Cat5 or el cheapo Radio Shack magnet wire for use as speaker cables.  Go to http://www.wiredstate.com/pinoydiophiles .

Thin cables don't necessarily mean bad sound.  Look at Audio Note silver cables.  If you buy on looks alone, there is no what on earth you'd choose this even against those Handyman or True Value interconnect specials.  But the sound, oh me oh my...

[av_phile]

What would be the threshold for quality speaker wires for bi-wiring purposes?

Alas, this depends on your budget.  My first set of good cables were Ixos 6003.  Don't know how much that is now.

Suggest you strike up a conversation with the number of Pinoydiophiles who've turned to Cat5 or el cheapo Radio Shack magnet wire for use as speaker cables.  Go to http://www.wiredstate.com/pinoydiophiles .

Thin cables don't necessarily mean bad sound.  Look at Audio Note silver cables.  If you buy on looks alone, there is no what on earth you'd choose this even against those Handyman or True Value interconnect specials.  But the sound, oh me oh my...

Hi rtsy,

Am not  really into budgets,  If something is worth owning, I'd beg, steal, borrow, whatever to get it.

So thin wires are OK too.  But wait, you said "silver cables."  Based on my scant chemistry knowhow, silver and all those "noble" metals like gold and platinum are excellent current conductors way above the base metals like copper.  That's why a thin silver wire is better than a thick copper wire.  Right?

Talk about category 5 cables, will check the site you referred to.  Offhand, I know that a cat5 is a bundle of 4 pairs of stranded solid wire.  They would seem to match the 4 terminals in a bi-wireable speaker using only one cable run.  Interesting.

[rtsy]

av_phile,

if you have an open budget, your best bet is to listen to as many cables as you can and decide which is worth it for you.

it isn't just the material that matters.  it also matters how it is constructed, what connectors were used, etc.

in www.wiredstate.com/pinoydiophiles, mozilla and arnoldC have made silver interconnects worthy of commercial cables in the US$200 range, maybe higher.

CAT5 cable used as speaker cable is several legs braided together, not the 4 wires (kung 4 nga, I'm not sure eh) so there is one wire per binding post in a bi-wired set-up.  I think TNT-Audio has these DIY cables.  Also search for web for DIY cables by Jon Risch.

Coax is another material.

The best commercially available cables I've heard are those from Audio Note Japan.  But be warned, prices range from US$200 per meter pair all the way to US$1.2k per meter pair.  If you hvae multiple sources, separate components, bi-wire speaker cable runs, it's gonna be $$$!

[arnoldc]

av_phile, about CAT 5

not all CAT 5 cables will sound good. the recommended cable for this is Belden 89259 and is NOT available in the Philippines (no TFE insulated Belden appeared here according to some sources that i asked). most CAT5 cables here are PVC insulated (bad, due to dielectric coefficient and dielectric absorption).

do you know how to braid?

the other issue is capacitance, the cable must be below 0.1uF for best results.

DIY interconnects, yes, i've done different flavors too, from copper (Belden military grade) to magnet wire (Radio Shack) to 4N silver. in my experience, the best RCA terminator is Eichmann Bullet Plugs (this is not a shameless plug, as i said this is my experience and many other pinoydiophiles do concur).

want to make your own? i have the complete step-by-step guide with pictures at www.wiredstate.com/pinoydiophiles

[av_phile]

rtsy,

You're right, it will be very costly.  And though I said I'm not into budgets, that doesn't mean the sky's the limit.   I calculate replacing my speakers cables with Audio Note would come out more expensive than  a Sunfire Theater Grand III pre/pro!!!! I don't  think it's worth it for a mere rotel-integra-b&w/wharfedale combo.  

My more pedestrian concern is just to use the best possible  short of going high end.  I subscribe to the idea that you get what you pay for.  But I'm not totally convinceed that spending almost 100 times the cost of ordinary cables for exotic ones would yield sonic improvements commensurate to the investment difference. (I think that's because I've read more internet articles against it than for it.)   I repeat the key word there is "commensurate."  Maybe there is sonic improvement, but is it commensurate to the price difference? Don't get me wrong I have nothing against designer cables.  Just their commercial prices.  So if there are cheaper DIY alternative that come close to these, I am all ears.  

arnooldc

Yup, I can braid my kid sister's hair if that's what you mean.  Why, will braiding wires make a sonic difference?  What spec of wires should I braid?

How do you measure capacitance of wires  from a multitester?  How about inductance?  I read somewhere it attenuates high frequencies when uisng thick gauge wire.  So maybe I should use a thinner gauge wire for the tweeter, right?

Am just starting out in wiredstate and will eventually read your articles there, but offhand, what is an Eichmann Bullet plug if I may? And why do you say it's shameless?  Is it compatible with the typical RCA phono jacks?  Is it available in eletronics shops? Thanks.

[arnoldc]

Am just starting out in wiredstate and will eventually read your articles there, but offhand, what is an Eichmann Bullet plug if I may? And why do you say it's shameless?  Is it compatible with the typical RCA phono jacks?  Is it available in eletronics shops? Thanks.

"shameless plug (advertisement)" for a product which i distribute. in our quest for better sounding and yet cheaper products, i decided to bring in the Bullet Plugs from www.eichmanncables.com which some of the pinoydiophile DIYers have used, and preferred in their system.

in my experience and based on listening tests, braiding a silver wire for interconnects sounds better, clearer.

[rtsy]

I subscribe to the idea that you get what you pay for.  But I'm not totally convinceed that spending almost 100 times the cost of ordinary cables for exotic ones would yield sonic improvements commensurate to the investment difference. (I think that's because I've read more internet articles against it than for it.)   I repeat the key word there is "commensurate."  Maybe there is sonic improvement, but is it commensurate to the price difference?

Only your ears can tell if it's worth it.  

Sama ka sa ilang listening sessions that from time to time get announced in Pinoydiophiles.  You'll hear stuff from el cheapo Cat5/coax/magnet wire cables to more elegant silver I/C's DIYed by ArnoldC & Mozilla, to the stuff you've read about that elicits "improvement isn't commensurateto cost" comments.  

Let your ears and wallet, not posts by other so called "audiophiles" decide.  Sama ka sa sessions, libre naman yan, well, kung medyo nahihiya ka, dala ka ng pa-meryenda.  

[av_phile]

rtsy,

Will browse though the thread and try to fit any forthcoming listening sked to my availability. Offhand, can you mention some hifi stores that wouldn't mind a very inquisitve customer?  I've tried Sound and Dimension at the quad car park and they are very helpful.  Upscale is kinda snubbish.  Thanks.

[rtsy]

I started a thread last year I think in the general discussions forum of PinoyDVD.  Do a search for a thread entitled "Your Thoughts On Philippine Audio Stores."

[levi]

bump

[D75C]

Several years ago, I experimented on bi-wiring and bi-amping my Matrix HTM center speaker. Results on my B&Ws were quite surprising. Since my speaker wires were individually insulated (Kimber 8TC). I split the 16 conductors equally into to 2 pairs, testing each conductor to make sure each group goes to the right terminal, after an hour, I wired them to the HF & LF binding posts and played mono music from the XLO test and burn-in CD on it. Got better mids, highs were sweeter and slightly more airy.

To my excitement, I tried redistributing the number of conductors, 10 conductors for the LF, and 6 conductors for the HF, then vice versa, I tried it to the bitter end, 14 conductors and 2. The results really vary. Mid-bass had more punch with more conductors, and the highs loses air with lesser conductors. It felt like I had a detail controller on hand.

Took me a 3 days to complete the experiment. Listened to it only first thing in the morning, and on a late night. Had to make sure if my ears were'nt playing tricks on me.

So which combination did I end up with? Equal. I didn't want to compromise anything. After that I bi-wired my mains. Couldn't bi-amp, had no more spare power amps.

If you have speaker cables with multiple insulated conductors like IXOS and XLO a spare stereo amp or a Yamaha A/V Receiver with 2 Center Outs, you probably can try the bi-amp experiment.

[jerix]

hey guys,

in bi-wiring, is it really necessary to have two speaker wires connected to the speaker terminal of your lets say, front channel, so that one speaker wire will go the woofer and the other one will go to the mid or tweeter..

or it is also possible to have only one speaker wire from the speaker terminal of the receiver and u just have to divide and split the + into 2 and _ into two at the end of that speaker wire so that one set of + and - will go to the woofer and one set of + and - will go to the tweeter and mid?

guys am asking kasi the second option is "mas matipid."  --   thnks

[levi]

The second option is not biwiring anymore. Its changing the jumper. I did that to my speakers.

[jerix]

The second option is not biwiring anymore. Its changing the jumper. I did that to my speakers.

ok, i will try to experiment this option. I would also think this is safe because we are only creating an extension of the receiver's terminal, di ba? in reality there will be two sets of wires that would go each to the woofer and the tweeter or mid.

follow up question:

in bi-wiring, do we have to consider the impedance of  the woofer, mid or tweeter to be connected under the option?

[av_phile]

in bi-wiring, do we have to consider the impedance of  the woofer, mid or tweeter to be connected under the option?

Not necessary.  The manufactuers of bi-wireable speakers see to that.  

[jerix]

hi professor av_phile,

do u mean that the speaker should actually be the type that is already designed by the manufacturer as bi-wirable?

like now i plan to experiment with one of my speakers. meron lang shang  + and - speaker input sa likod. to bi-wire this i will to have a separate line for the woofer and a separate wire sana for the mid and tweeter. will this work? thnks

[av_phile]

hi professor av_phile,

do u mean that the speaker should actually be the type that is already designed by the manufacturer as bi-wirable?

like now i plan to experiment with one of my speakers. meron lang shang  + and - speaker input sa likod. to bi-wire this i will to have a separate line for the woofer and a separate wire sana for the mid and tweeter. will this work? thnks

Firsltly, thanks but i am no professor.  Just another hobbyst like you giving his 2 cents worth.

Secondly, yes, you should have speakers desgined by the manufactuers to be bi-wireable.  That means, the back of the speaker cabinet should have 2 sets of  terminals that are jumpered when new. for a total of 4 terminals per speaker.  One set + and - (red and black, typically) labeled LF (low frequencies) and another set HF (High frequencies).

Thirdly,  if your speakers are not bi-wireable and have only + and - terminals, you will have to open both speaker cabinets, identify where on the crossover circuit to tap for your LFand HF bi-wiring points (respecting true polarity).  And I think you will have to cut some wires or open circuit board connections to separate the LF from the HF (postive points).  Then you will have to buy a speaker terminal designed for bi-wiring, or modify the cabinet to accommodate another pair of terminals and wire them to the HF and LF points on the crossover circuit.

In short, it can be messy modifying your speakers for bi-wiring.  Not that it can't be done, and far be it for me to dampen your experimental urges, for me, the benefits can be just too minimal, if any, for the effort expended.  

Just my 2 cents.

[jerix]

  ganun pala.... maybe ill just hav to abandon it.

btw, m callin u professor kasi para kang teacher and i appreciate the way u explain--   thnks

[tamulmol]

Will bi-wiring improve my 8.3 performance?  Kakabili ko lang kasi almost a month ago and i'm thinking how much improvement will it give sa 8.3....OOngi...tnx.

[Dr. Dre]

Will bi-wiring improve my 8.3 performance?  Kakabili ko lang kasi almost a month ago and i'm thinking how much improvement will it give sa 8.3....OOngi...tnx.

The concept is for optimal performance.  It's worth a try.  But trust your ears.

[kenchix1]

After reading the whole thread, somehow, im still confused. (mahina po siguro intindi ko) Im using m72i and there's -HF and -LF and +LF and +HF at the  back and there's this brass or copper thing that serves as a jumper for both, i guess.

My questions are :

a) the +HF,+LF,-HF and -LF at the back of the speakers, are these the binding post ?

b) Im using an old rxv595 receiver, so there are 4 output for main speakers (A and B). I only want to use the A, should i put the 2 wires in positive (connecting to the  +HF+LF of the speaker) and 2 wires in negative (connecting to the -HF-LF of the speaker)?  if yes, isn't this the same as putting a small cable as a replacement for the old copper jumpers since i'll just put the a separate cable that bind its end and connect it to the same source ?

Or i need to have a receiver that have 4 output (-HF,-LF and +HF,+LF) per channel ?

I don't want to use the speaker B because im planning to put m73i (tama ba eto yung floorstander na model ?) on it so using it is not an alternative.

please enlighten me. napapaisip po kasi ako magbi-wire. thanks in advance.

[iceman90a]

My questions are :

a) the +HF,+LF,-HF and -LF at the back of the speakers, are these the binding post ?

yes  

b) Im using an old rxv595 receiver, so there are 4 output for main speakers (A and B). I only want to use the A, should i put the 2 wires in positive (connecting to the  +HF+LF of the speaker) and 2 wires in negative (connecting to the -HF-LF of the speaker)?

correct again  

 if yes, isn't this the same as putting a small cable as a replacement for the old copper jumpers since i'll just put the a separate cable that bind its end and connect it to the same source ?

technically that is correct - however some people here a difference between just changing the jumper, vs having a wire directly connected to the source.

i personally have tried both ways (Mission M73 & Mission M74) and went with just changing the jumper. Didn't hear a significant difference, plus its cheaper  

Or i need to have a receiver that have 4 output (-HF,-LF and +HF,+LF) per channel ?

nope - not necessarily, although that would be similar to bi-amping. i suggest you try connecting the A to the HF +/- and B to the LF +/- in the meantime. just to see if you like how it sounds