Topic: Question on the Holy Trinity

[jerix]

PTrader talk layman please...i dont get your answer 

[pTrader]

PTrader talk layman please...i dont get your answer 

eto yung buong storya:

Luke 16:

19“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
 
22“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
 
25“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
 
27“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family,28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
 
29“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
 
30“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
 
31“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

Based from the verse below, yung tao will not have any good things to experience puro bad things:

25“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony

no happiness, no joy, puro sorrow, sa madling salita walang kabuhay buhay, miserable, walang enjoyment (this is my own opinion)...

naghahanap ka ng comfort walang comfort, naghahanap ka ng kapahingahan walang rest, wlang katapusang paghihirap ng kalooban...

[bumblebee]

Nasabi ko na inde ka maniawala. Isinama ko na rin yung verse na sinabe sa aken inde ka rin maniwala.

Ito lang naman ang kakahinatnan ng inde naniniwala sa Dios at may Dios:

Rev 21:8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Eto lang naman ang sinabe ni Jesus Christ "29Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”"

Ayaw kang maniwala dito punta mo "—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”"

At inde ako mag-aalinlangang sabihin iyan.

sabi ni Jesus Christ "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

maniniwala naman akong nakausap mo si god basta ma prove mo e. Kung ayaw mong panotaryo, kahit post ka na lang ng pics.

Btw, those verses you cited, they assume free will. Pano na predestination nyan?

[pTrader]

maniniwala naman akong nakausap mo si god basta ma prove mo e. Kung ayaw mong panotaryo, kahit post ka na lang ng pics.

Btw, those verses you cited, they assume free will. Pano na predestination nyan?

pahiramin mo muna ako ng camera na kayang i-capture yung unseen, tapos ipadala ko sa iyo yung pics.

[pTrader]

^ the good news is this "blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

basta ba may ipapahiram kang  camera na makaka-capture ng inde nakikita.

[pTrader]

To all who believes:

If the Holy Trinity postulates 3 equal Gods which existed co-equally even prior to creation, and Jesus Christ, the God with flesh, is supposed to be God the son, then who was God the son before the birth of Christ?

Thanks to anybody who will respond.

Balik sa tanong about Jesus:

before the birth of Christ ito yung sinabe ng AMA :

Hebrew 1 NIV

8But of the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
 9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
 
10And,

“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
 11they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment,
 12like a robe you will roll them up,
like a garment they will be changed.a
But you are the same,
and your years will have no end.”

After the birth:
Eto naman yung pinahayag nag isang tao ngalan ay Tomas.

John 20:28Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”


Very much consistent kung sino ang Anak  before and after the birth.

Jesus is the Son, who is God and who is Lord.

[barrister]

After the destruction of the soul in that lake of burning sulfur, what will happen to the soul that was created by God into his likeness and image, will it cease to be soul? meaning will it turn into something else, as in another matter or entity?

They die, they are consumed, they become ashes.  They cease to exist.  They do not transform into a new entity.

“Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2 But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves. 3 Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the Lord Almighty. (Mal. 4:1-3)

[bumblebee]

^ the good news is this "blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Narinig ko na yan e. Last resort ka na ba?

[panzimus]

nagegets ko point ni sir bumblebee. paano mo nga naman papatunayan ang existence ni God (christian god) or legitimacy ng Bible by using the Bible itself.

Halimbawa, ang pagpapatunay ng mga mormons sa book of mormon by stating na totoo sya kasi isinasaad na totoo sya sa book of mormon itself. and for sure may mga verses din sa book na yun about those who do not believe will be punished and blessing those who believe.

[barrister]

Ilang beses ko na ring sinabi yan.  That is called the fallacy of circular reasoning:

 

This is circular reasoning: "The bible says God exists. Therefore, God exists."

To prove that God exists, the statement starts with the premise that the bible is the word of God. The premise already presumes that God exists, then the conclusion says God exists.

The starting point is the same as the end result. Circular reasoning.

But in this thread, nobody is proposing to prove the existence of God by evidence.
 
The title of this thread is "Question on the Holy Trinity."  Therefore, the existence of God is a premise that is already agreed.  Otherwise, how can you even begin to discuss the Holy Trinity if you don't believe that God exists. 
 
 
===================================
 
 
Dito lang naman nag-umpisa ang topic na proof of God:
 

Wala namang proof na may God nga e. Belief lang natin yun.

yup. and i am not proving that God exist sa ni post ko. i am simply declaring my belife that the BIble is the Word of God, vice versa.

 
=================================
 
 
As I have repeatedly stated, I do not believe it is possible to prove the existence of God:
 

I believe God exists, but I don't believe it's possible to prove God exists. Therefore, my belief in the existence of God is based on faith, not evidence.

That is why I never attempt to prove that God exists.
 
If I say I believe in the bible and I believe God exists, that is not circular reasoning, because I am not attempting to prove anything.  I am merely declaring my beliefs.
 
Nasabi ko na rin yan ---
 

You mean having faith in the existence of God first before having faith that the bible is the word of God is circular reasoning?

That's not circular reasoning. Both of them are declarations of belief, not proof. Interchange them and they're still two declarations of belief, not proof.

=================================


What do I say to someone who does not believe in God?  I say bahala ka sa gusto mong paniwalaan.  I will not even attempt to convince him otherwise:

--- kung ayaw nilang maniwala, e di wag.     

... kung ayaw nilang maniwala, problema na nila yon.

Walang circular reasoning diyan...

[RU9]

If I say I believe in the bible and I believe God exists, that is not circular reasoning, because I am not attempting to prove anything.  I am merely declaring my beliefs.

Let us take the case of a person who has no preconceived notion of a god. When he reads the bible, he can say that the bible is fiction,  While a person who had been fed with ideas about god throughout his life, he will consider the bible as a reinforcement to the belief in God. Is this what you call "faith".

I am trying to understand what faith is.  Is Barisster, dpogs, ptrader predestined to have faith? They all have faith but different understanding of the bible. Only one could be correct or also possible all of them are are wrong. But 2 of the have said that they are sure that they will go to heaven:)

There were instances that I am forcing myself to believe in the bible/god. It does not work, the magic is not there.

[dpogs]

When it comes to salvation: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit work together as one.

God the Father plans the salvation or set the standard of salvation
God the Son (Jesus Christ) fulfill the will of God, execute plan of salvation, the only one who met God's standard of salvation
and how the Holy Sprit works...

first let me present few facts/truth according to the Bible

Truth No.1: Human can't understand the Bible unless he/she is a true believer (or son of God). > see Footnote 1
Truth No.2: If unbeliever can't understand the Bible, there is no way he can understand the Gospel. > see Footnote 1
Truth No.3: Without understanding of the Gospel, they will always choose to reject the salvation offered by God. Because they were blinded by the god of this world (the "enemy"). see Footnote 1
Truth No.4: The heart of man is exceedingly wicked that it will always choose to reject God. Still free will exist though man will always choose to reject God because of his heart that is exceedingly wicked. > see Footnote 3

How can they believe if on the first place they cant understand the Bible? How can they believe the Bible if on the first place they will always choose to reject God. Even with the revelation from God's creation they deny the existence of God. Dito na po papasok ang gawa ng God the Holy Spirit.

God the Holy Spirit will give faith and understanding to those who are elect/predestined. > see Footnote 2

The Holy Spirit is the one responsible giving each man's heart understanding of God's salvation.

in summary, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit works together to lead elect's soul unto salvation that he will always choose to believe in God.

In this way, knowing that it is all by God's grace and knowing that it is God's who work unto us to obtain salvation, that we can only glorify God to the fullest.

and i can say this with all my heart: "To God be the glory for all the things He hath done. He showed me that I am a sinner not worthy of His glory. He led me unto repentance. He saved my soul, He let me understand His Words/Bible. He changed my life from being spiritually wicked to being spiritually righteous. He gave me power over my old self. Though I sinned from time to time here on earth while in my physical body or corruptible body - Jesus washed it by His own blood and became my mediator to God the Father, thus God the Father instead of seeing my sins He sees the Blood of Jesus as redemption of my sins."

Footnote 1:

That is because the word of God is not intended to be understood by everyone.  It is intended to be understood only by those who believe.  That is why the bible says the Gospel is veiled to those who refuse to believe:

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Cor. 4:3-4)

I'm sure you have experienced it many times.  Evangelize all you want, until you are blue in the face, and they still won't believe.  That's why Jesus explained:

31 He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ (Luke 16:31)

Footnote 2:

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesian 2:8-9

Even "faith" is a gift from God.

Footnoe 3:

The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?Jeremiah 17:9 KJV

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. Romans 3:10-18 KJV

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Romans 1:21 KJV

Note:
a. Unless you realize that you alone can't save your soul from hell you will come unto repentance nor seek Jesus for salvation.
b. If you still believe that by joining a religion, or by reading a Bible, or by doing good works is necessary for obtaining salvation, you will never come unto repentance nor seek Jesus for salvation.

[bumblebee]

There were instances that I am forcing myself to believe in the bible/god. It does not work, the magic is not there.

Me naman, the deeper I get (while taking the Bible literally), the sillier it gets. More questions than answers.

Anyway, trinity. I tried to reconcile this when I was young. One God, Father became the Son, God is a Spirit, a holy one. Can't say it works for me as well as it did before.

[dpogs]

Me naman, the deeper I get (while taking the Bible literally), the sillier it gets. More questions than answers.

Anyway, trinity. I tried to reconcile this when I was young. One God, Father became the Son, God is a Spirit, a holy one. Can't say it works for me as well as it did before.

May I ask:

Kung naniniwala ka na may impiyerno (literally burning fire) at doon mapupunta ang tao, what is your belief kung paano maliligtas ang tao?

[bumblebee]

May I ask:

Kung naniniwala ka na may impiyerno (literally burning fire) at doon mapupunta ang tao, what is your belief kung paano maliligtas ang tao?

Hindi kasi ako naniniwalang by default mapupunta sa impyerno ang tao. Kawawa naman yung mga pumanaw right after they are born. Walang kalaban-laban di ba?

[dpogs]

Hindi kasi ako naniniwalang by default mapupunta sa impyerno ang tao. Kawawa naman yung mga pumanaw right after they are born. Walang kalaban-laban di ba?

with the exception of children and those who are/were born mentally incapable of course

edited:
Kung naniniwala ka na ang may kasalanan ay mapupunta sa impiyerno, what is your belief kung papaano maliligtas ang may kasalanan?

[bumblebee]

with the exception of children and those who are/were born mentally incapable of course

Aba swerte. Diretsong langit. Are they still babies or mentally ill when they get there?

[bumblebee]

edited:
Kung naniniwala ka na ang may kasalanan ay mapupunta sa impiyerno, what is your belief kung papaano maliligtas ang may kasalanan?

Repent, not because you want to be saved, but because it's the right thing to do.

[dpogs]

Aba swerte. Diretsong langit. Are they still babies or mentally ill when they get there?

it will be the age of complete and total perfection.

Kung naniniwala ka na ang may kasalanan ay mapupunta sa impiyerno, what is your belief kung papaano maliligtas ang may kasalanan?

Repent.

thank you.

follow up questions

Did you repent already?
If yes? Are you sure now that you will be saved?

[jerix]

Balik sa tanong about Jesus:

before the birth of Christ ito yung sinabe ng AMA :

Hebrew 1 NIV

8But of the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
 9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
 
10And,

“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
 11they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment,
 12like a robe you will roll them up,
like a garment they will be changed.a
But you are the same,
and your years will have no end.”

After the birth:
Eto naman yung pinahayag nag isang tao ngalan ay Tomas.

John 20:28Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”


Very much consistent kung sino ang Anak  before and after the birth.

Jesus is the Son, who is God and who is Lord.

Based on the holy trinity Jesus is God on flesh, co existent with God the creator and God the spirit. Now, what have become that Jesus when that angel announced to Mary that she will conceive the son of God? Did that Jesus magically transform himself into some kind of a "butiki"or a "palaka" and appeared on the womb of Mary immediately? I asked that because whether we like it or not, that cell on the womb of Mary was that God on the flesh and that God on the flesh whom God the creator was talking with before birth. He could not be different from that God on Mary's womb because if that was the case, there will be 4 Gods during the event.

[bumblebee]

it will be the age of complete and total perfection.

Been there already?

thank you.

follow up questions

Did you repent already?

Many times.

If yes? Are you sure now that you will be saved?

I don't think about life after death. I am here on earth and will focus on this life.

[rexFi]

Christians also focus in this life, thats where the "your kingdom come, Thy will be done" thingie comes in.

[dpogs]

Been there already?

Not Yet. Maybe later or tomorrow. I dont know yet when but I am waiting for that moment.
Becuase that is God's promise to me and I am holding on to that promise.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is. I John 3:2 KJV

Many times.

I don't think about life after death. I am here on earth and will focus on this life.

2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. Col. 2:3

19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful. Mark 4:19

Maybe because you set your focus and attention in this world/Earth that is why the word of God have been choke.

I pray and I hope that the Word of God reaches your heart.

[bumblebee]

^Malinaw naman sa kin teachings ni God. Yung beliefs mo lang yung malabo para sa akin

[dpogs]

^Malinaw naman sa kin teachings ni God. Yung beliefs mo lang yung malabo para sa akin

so, if it is clear, are you sure now that you are going to heaven? based on how you understand the teaching?

[bumblebee]

so, if it is clear, are you sure now that you are going to heaven? based on how you understand the teaching?

That is not for me to decide and like I said, I don't think about it.

[rexFi]

hmm, what I don't think about is Eschatology. Everything else is ok...

[pTrader]

Narinig ko na yan e. Last resort ka na ba?

Naniwala ka naman ba?


For the last resort:

Learn form the woman who was suffering bleeding.

Mark 5:

A large crowd followed and pressed around him. 25And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years. 26She had suffered a great deal under the care of many doctors and had spent all she had, yet instead of getting better she grew worse. 27When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, 28because she thought, “If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed.” 29Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering.
 
30At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, “Who touched my clothes?”
 
31“You see the people crowding against you,” his disciples answered, “and yet you can ask, ‘Who touched me?’ ”
 
32But Jesus kept looking around to see who had done it. 33Then the woman, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell at his feet and, trembling with fear, told him the whole truth. 34He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering.”

[pTrader]

Based on the holy trinity Jesus is God on flesh, co existent with God the creator and God the spirit. Now, what have become that Jesus when that angel announced to Mary that she will conceive the son of God? Did that Jesus magically transform himself into some kind of a "butiki"or a "palaka" and appeared on the womb of Mary immediately? I asked that because whether we like it or not, that cell on the womb of Mary was that God on the flesh and that God on the flesh whom God the creator was talking with before birth. He could not be different from that God on Mary's womb because if that was the case, there will be 4 Gods during the event.

why make the plural more plural?

[bumblebee]

Naniwala ka naman ba?

Naniniwala saan? Wala ka pa namang proof.