Topic: Do i need to recap? (or: Where can i get my amp refurbished/reconditioned?)

[newbieforever]

hello all!

what's the general rule regarding recapping an amplifier? when should you do it, if at all? the reason i ask is i recently purchased an onkyo integra a-917f integrated amp from the 90s.  specs  looks good on paper and it was on the higher end of the lineup... but the sound is just... meh.... i really don't know if there's something wrong with the unit or it just really sounds like that. sound is veiled and muffled, especially on more complex tracks. treble can get harsh and bass is lacking (contrary to the few reviews i've encountered). overall lack of instrument separation and detail.

i guess what i really want to know is, is there any shop or amp tech who can do a thorough check of old amps to determine whether or not it is performing as well as it should? someone who could do a complete diagnostic check of the amp to ensure all capacitors, resistors, etc. are up to snuff? the repair shop i go to will not accept the unit unless there's something wrong with it (ie. no power, distorted sound etc.) any feedback/advise would be most appreciated.

thanks!

edit:  upon further research on other sites, it seems that capacitors and other components do tend to deteriorate over time (as in decades), which could explain the degradation in sound. still would want to have it tested though. where can i have this done?

[newbieforever]

follow up...


can i do the diagnostics myself? is there a guide to do this?

[darkangel69]

follow up...


can i do the diagnostics myself? is there a guide to do this?

Good day! What you might want to ask yourself is, would it be worth the trouble to do a recap? Speaking from experience where I've recap a Pioneer sx-838 I would say it's too costly but the end result was pretty good so I am happy. When I got the unit there where scratchy sound and the would turn on and off. Good thing I have a recap list from audiokarma.org and some guide that forum. Never had any issues from then on

[newbieforever]

Good day! What you might want to ask yourself is, would it be worth the trouble to do a recap? Speaking from experience where I've recap a Pioneer sx-838 I would say it's too costly but the end result was pretty good so I am happy. When I got the unit there where scratchy sound and the would turn on and off. Good thing I have a recap list from audiokarma.org and some guide that forum. Never had any issues from then on

thanks for the reply sir!

i've been doing a bit of reading myself and the general consensus is that as long as it works properly, don't touch it.  i haven't had any issues with mine other than a general sense of sound degradation (i don't know for sure though).  i'll probably give it a more detailed look to see exactly what components are in there and whether any show tell tale signs of failure (ie. bloating, bad solder joints, etc.)... and yes, it would seem a bit costly given that i would have to invest in decent tools.

i was just hoping that, at the very least, there was a shop/technician who could give it (and any future purchases) a thorough inspection with the proper measuring tools. kind of like how we would normally have a car thoroughly inspected after 50,000 or 100,000km, even if it still runs without issue.  on a side note, i was thinking of purchasing another, much older amp but had to stop myself precisely because i wouldn't know where to bring it in case anything went wrong.

[tony]

Sansui Dan is the man....seek him out, i will ask his permission to post his cell number...

[darkangel69]

Most old amps and receiver suffer from capacitor breakdown and leaks due to old age. The units that i have acquired over the years have been recapped because either they sound awful or have reliability issues. For a start try to recap the power supply section first. That's were the common issues usually stars. And some sections do need their transistors to be replaced with new ones or model iteration if in any case they're already obsolete. That's another issue to deal with, finding suitable replacements for parts that are no longer available.

[darkangel69]

Sansui Dan is the man....seek him out, i will ask his permission to post his cell number...

Never met Sansui Dan but I've spoken to him years ago and he seemto know very well when it comes to amp rebuilding. Sir tony too..
Kamusta po sir Tony, nasa Mangaldan ako a few weeks ago. Taga dun kasi si misis.

Sorry for the ot TS.. :-)

[tony]

Never met Sansui Dan but I've spoken to him years ago and he seemto know very well when it comes to amp rebuilding. Sir tony too..
Kamusta po sir Tony, nasa Mangaldan ako a few weeks ago. Taga dun kasi si misis.

Sorry for the ot TS.. :-)

thanks, i am good....
Sansui Dan is a frequent visitor, i supply him with parts for his repairs and exchange notes with him...

[newbieforever]

thanks for all the input! keep em coming. :-)

ive been doing a bit more reading and it seems more and more certain that i DO NOT need a recap.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/signs-that-you-need-to-recap.287093/

maybe my amp just doesn't pair well with my speakers?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tony]

yours is an 80 watt per channel amp, what is the sensitivity of your speakers in db?

[rochie]

thanks for all the input! keep em coming. :-)

ive been doing a bit more reading and it seems more and more certain that i DO NOT need a recap.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/signs-that-you-need-to-recap.287093/

maybe my amp just doesn't pair well with my speakers?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

what speaker are you using? I also owned an Onkyo integra 917 before and it drives all my speaker to full power even my 4inches fullrange speaker sounds nicely on that amp. not just capacitors, you may want to check the potentiometers.

[newbieforever]

apologies for the late reply...

using a pair of precise acoustic labs monitor 5 large bookshelves. very little is known about the brand, other than the fact that it was developed by onkyo to compete with the likes of KEF in the U.S. market. they really didn't do well although it was more of a marketing issue than quality. there's a thread on audiokarma about these. that's where you can get about all the info (which isn't much) on these. they sound great when paired with my NAD 304 though, which is why i figured there might be something wrong with the amp.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[newbieforever]

while i seriously doubt i'll have the time and/or the courage to actually undergo such a task...

theoretically, exactly how does one go about doing a recap? is it a matter of just changing ALL electrolytic caps (as per service manual) to either newer/better ones or to film caps?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tony]

your NAD 304 is way less powerful than your integra,
just goes to show that amplifier power is not everything...
perhaps the topology made the difference...

to me recapping means replacing ecaps used as coupling caps with film types where practical..
esr meters are a must to ensure that you are not replacing the old cap with new lemons...

[newbieforever]

your NAD 304 is way less powerful than your integra,
just goes to show that amplifier power is not everything...
perhaps the topology made the difference...

to me recapping means replacing ecaps used as coupling caps with film types where practical..
esr meters are a must to ensure that you are not replacing the old cap with new lemons...

yup, it would seem so. i actually got the Onkyo thinking that it would perform "better" than the NAD given the latter's output vis a vis my speakers' rated input. furthermore, the fact that both amp and speakers were made by the same manufacturer should theoretically provide better synergy. oh well...

so you're saying that it's not necessary to replace ALL electrolytic caps?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tony]

yup, it would seem so. i actually got the Onkyo thinking that it would perform "better" than the NAD given the latter's output vis a vis my speakers' rated input. furthermore, the fact that both amp and speakers were made by the same manufacturer should theoretically provide better synergy. oh well...

so you're saying that it's not necessary to replace ALL electrolytic caps?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

maybe better to sell that amp than go thru the trouble of recapping...
and then get an amp that will mate well with your speakers...
there are no hard and fast rules when it comes to synergy,
it is either there or it is not...
and it is not the fault of the gears, just that the actual environment is not favorable.....

[newbieforever]

maybe better to sell that amp than go thru the trouble of recapping...
and then get an amp that will mate well with your speakers...
there are no hard and fast rules when it comes to synergy,
it is either there or it is not...
and it is not the fault of the gears, just that the actual environment is not favorable.....

that would seem to be the case sir tony...

btw, would you happen to know if Sansui Dan is still active? just in case i come across a "restoration worthy" amp. saw a few online but i'd like to make sure first that i'd have someone to hand it off to for proper servicing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tony]

that would seem to be the case sir tony...

btw, would you happen to know if Sansui Dan is still active? just in case i come across a "restoration worthy" amp. saw a few online but i'd like to make sure first that i'd have someone to hand it off to for proper servicing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

yes, and he comes to the house once in a while to get power trannies from me, also exchange notes...

[newbieforever]

yes, and he comes to the house once in a while to get power trannies from me, also exchange notes...

ok great... would you accept jobs like this as well? ;-)

p.s. my speaker project (with your crossovers) didn't go so well. tweeter didn't match woofer/full range. hunting for a more suitable woofer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tony]

ok great... would you accept jobs like this as well? ;-)

p.s. my speaker project (with your crossovers) didn't go so well. tweeter didn't match woofer/full range. hunting for a more suitable woofer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

sorry, i do not do those kinds of job anymore, your other option is markrenz....pm mo sya...

[fantom_mayonaise]

Ang natatandaan ko lang re: recapping ay yung power supply caps. Kung magrerecap ka ng vintage amp, start ka sa power supply kasi pag bumigay yung power caps (lalo na kung natuyo na) di lang recap ang magiging problema. 80's amplifiers are good candidates for PS recapping.

[newbieforever]

Ang natatandaan ko lang re: recapping ay yung power supply caps. Kung magrerecap ka ng vintage amp, start ka sa power supply kasi pag bumigay yung power caps (lalo na kung natuyo na) di lang recap ang magiging problema. 80's amplifiers are good candidates for PS recapping.

thanks for the tip sir! will consider that, although probably with another unit...

i actually set this one up again but paired it with a different cd player. hooked up my turntable as well. HUGE difference! apparently, my other cdp (NAD C542) had the synergy issues. the amp itself sounds great when paired with my Denon cdp. even better with my turntable. in conclusion, there apparently isn't anything wrong with the amp after all. hindi lang siya bumagay sa cd player. has anyone else paired their jap gear (onkyo, sansui, pioneer, denon, etc.) with non-jap gear (NAD, Cambridge, Arcam, etc.)?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[newbieforever]

im inclined to think that in general, japanese designs vary greatly from non-japanese ones... and that the two MIGHT not mix well together.... just my thoughts, at least.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tony]

i am partial to British made gears....

[innocent]

You do the recap if :
1. The amp has good SQ potentials. 
2. For keeps.
3. If you have budget for real good quality capacitors.

Remember, there's always a good reason why some capacitors are really expensive.  It depends on your capacity to buy.  Jensen or Mundorf or Nichicon KG...depends on you.

[tony]

@newbie, when someone tells you this or that, ask them what happened to their gears
and ask them what gears they kept after modding...that will speak for itself....

[newbieforever]

just a quick update...

i just recapped my cheapo generic USB DAC.  while the difference was VERY noticeable (much "cleaner" sound with better instrument separation and a more realistic presentation all around), it would seem that one would need a more solid base (ie. a better unit) as sir innocent stated.  while i do acknowledge that my amp has some potential, i really might be better off just getting a better amp (as advised by sir tony).  here're my take-aways for this particular discussion...

1.  while recapping does provide some benefit sonically, a lot of it would depend on the base unit.  a 5,000 peso amp simply can't be made to sound like a 20,000 peso amp with just a simple recap.

2.  as sir innocent points out, recapping would benefit more vintage models which are truly for keeps.  my unit isn't.

3.  recapping should be left to professionals. it took me 2 hours to replace 4 caps! hahahaha!!! chinese manufacturers really love their soldering paste.



p.s. i did manage to take a look inside the A917F and i saw quite a few Nichicon MUSE (green) caps.  all caps seem to be intact (no bulging). it seems Onkyo didn't skimp on caps for this particular model.

[innocent]

just a quick update...

i just recapped my cheapo generic USB DAC.  while the difference was VERY noticeable (much "cleaner" sound with better instrument separation and a more realistic presentation all around), it would seem that one would need a more solid base (ie. a better unit) as sir innocent stated.  while i do acknowledge that my amp has some potential, i really might be better off just getting a better amp (as advised by sir tony).  here're my take-aways for this particular discussion...

1.  while recapping does provide some benefit sonically, a lot of it would depend on the base unit.  a 5,000 peso amp simply can't be made to sound like a 20,000 peso amp with just a simple recap.

2.  as sir innocent points out, recapping would benefit more vintage models which are truly for keeps.  my unit isn't.

3.  recapping should be left to professionals. it took me 2 hours to replace 4 caps! hahahaha!!! chinese manufacturers really love their soldering paste.



p.s. i did manage to take a look inside the A917F and i saw quite a few Nichicon MUSE (green) caps.  all caps seem to be intact (no bulging). it seems Onkyo didn't skimp on caps for this particular model.

Just remember do not go for exotic or high end capacitors if you cannot hear the difference of it from standard caps.  I would suggest to get Arcam Alpha 2 post for sale.  It is a very nice amp and has many potentials esp.if upgraded to better caps.

Actually better SQ is not just recapping and replacing it with High End Caps.  You must know some secrets of how high end amps are made.  How its audio signals are processed...  Power supply is the foundation of high end amps.  Next is the audio processors used.  The caps will just unleashed the true potentials of the amp design.  Nevertheless, you can't really hear the difference a good sounding amp from bad if you don't have the ears for real music.  Choose what is preferable to your listening taste.
 
A good sounding amp means its maker has  a good listening taste.  How can you properly tune your amp if you really doesn't know what real music is,what is the actual sound of instruments compared to the sound of it during playback with your amp?  That is why a Mark Levinson Amp sounded different from Nelson Pass Amp. Though their SQ have something in common.  The difference in SQ of Japanese, Italian, American, British amps from one another defines its manufacturer's listening taste.  You choose what kind of amp is nice to your ears.

[dts_hdma]

@newbie, when someone tells you this or that, ask them what happened to their gears
and ask them what gears they kept after modding...that will speak for itself....

Minod taz bilib na bilib sa SQ... sabay benta din naman after.   

[tony]

Minod taz bilib na bilib sa SQ... sabay benta din naman after.   

LOL....daming ganyang kuwento dito......