Topic: Considering a Tube Amp

[JojoD818]

Ok lang yan ding, ako nga license chemical engineer doing room treatments, kung ano talaga interests mo doon ka hahaha

Ganyan daw talaga ang mga engineers pare, hindi mapakali kung saan-saan nagsusuot hahaha

[geriboy]

I think I have one, gift ni Rony sa akin many moons ago. It's a very nice book with lots of modern approach to a rather old technology. Although it's something more applicable to would be tube builders rather than users.

Yun RCA Receiving Tube Manual diba may online copy? Yun na lang basahin mo Ding, kadali pa intindihin kahit baguhan.

eto ba iyon? http://www.tubebooks.org/tubedata/RC30.pdf

[JojoD818]

Nice triode mode, meaning single ended triode?good rin na upgraded na rin ang tubes ng unit

Triode mode doc pero push-pull pa din, hindi single ended triode. FYI.

[JojoD818]

eto ba iyon? http://www.tubebooks.org/tubedata/RC30.pdf

Yan nga Doc, basahin niyo na. Madami mapupulot na aral diyan.

[geriboy]

Triode mode doc pero push-pull pa din, hindi single ended triode. FYI.

ok, thanks!

[geriboy]

Yan nga Doc, basahin niyo na. Madami mapupulot na aral diyan.

sinimulan ko... nahilo ako... at least may kopya na ako. hehe. maraming salamat!

[JojoD818]

sinimulan ko... nahilo ako... at least may kopya na ako. hehe. maraming salamat!

pinaprint at bookbind ko pa nga ganyan ko.

masarap basahin yan sa madaling araw habang nagkakape...

[balarila]

Sir ding I have a tubelab SSE power amp, it could accept kt88, el34, 6550 variants of tubes

http://tubelab.com/designs/tubelab-sse/

It is not for sale but could be heard, I am near Unciano Hospital. I will be back home 1st week of January.

I remember we exchanged pms before re woodworking.

Sige.  Will contact you then.  Malapit ka lang sa akin pala.

[tony]

marami pa nyan dito sa site ni Pete Millett.......enjoy....http://www.pmillett.com/
http://www.tubebooks.org/technical_books_online.htm

sinimulan ko... nahilo ako... at least may kopya na ako. hehe. maraming salamat!

[tony]

this is the biggest tube datasheet source...http://www.tubedata.org/

[balarila]

Sir Ding, I am glad you are enjoying the experience.
Please do try switching from ultralinear & triode mode to determine what type of AMP will suit your music preference.
The switch is on the left of the front panel.

Tried this briefly tonight.  I seem to prefer Ultralinear than Triode. Tried it on vocals and large orchestra.  Seems that, for me, mas makapal ang tunog ng ultralinear.  Do I make sense?

I'm not an audiophile so can't really express what I hear in the correct words.

[balarila]

The FH has a longer horn length than the ON, however the ON has a wider horn mouth than the FH. For the novice it is going to be a nightmare choosing which one. But personally, I'd vote for the Frugel build. Or, being a master woodworker, why not build both? Just teasing.

Mind elaborating more about your preference?

I don't know which one to build and will probably have time to build only one so appreciate any info on which one I should choose.  I also posted in the Speaker forum but not getting much activity there so far.

Frankly, I do not know what advantages there are on a longer horn nor on a wider mouth.

[JojoD818]

Mind elaborating more about your preference?

I don't know which one to build and will probably have time to build only one so appreciate any info on which one I should choose.  I also posted in the Speaker forum but not getting much activity there so far.

Frankly, I do not know what advantages there are on a longer horn nor on a wider mouth.

The FH has a single, corner loaded, constant expansion horn while the ON has split, symmetrical chambers (I think they call it manifolds in the speaker community) that has an increasing size. On a builder's point of view, the ON is much harder to build, though this may not be the case for you (more woodwork=more exciting).

I vote for the FH because it is easier to fine tune with stuffing as it only has one horn mouth, you do this twice on an ON build plus it may prove to be impossible since the many chambers may not be accessible anymore.

[balarila]

The FH has a single, corner loaded, constant expansion horn while the ON has split, symmetrical chambers (I think they call it manifolds in the speaker community) that has an increasing size. On a builder's point of view, the ON is much harder to build, though this may not be the case for you (more woodwork=more exciting).

I vote for the FH because it is easier to fine tune with stuffing as it only has one horn mouth, you do this twice on an ON build plus it may prove to be impossible since the many chambers may not be accessible anymore.

Thanks!

You're right.  I'm a masochist when it comes to woodworking.

On the stuffing/finetuning, I guess I can leave the front panel unglued, just clamped, while I adjust the filling, gluing only when I'm sure it sounded good.

If I could construct both FH3 and ON properly, which one would you think have better bass (as I think the small drivers trickle off in low freqs)?  Or bottom-line which one would produce better sound quality?  I know this could be subjective but I appreciate even opinions.  I could not find any comparisons of the two.

[tony]

Tried this briefly tonight.  I seem to prefer Ultralinear than Triode. Tried it on vocals and large orchestra.  Seems that, for me, mas makapal ang tunog ng ultralinear.  Do I make sense?

I'm not an audiophile so can't really express what I hear in the correct words.

of course you do....that is you....
i always tell people, i can explain the technical details but in the end
it is all up to you, i can not tell you how to enjoy your music...

let me try to give you an insight as to why you found ultralinear more
to your liking....for one it has more power and so can provide more spl...it has a local feedback to the screen grids that lowers plate resistance to make it mimic a triode.....

pentodes are much easier to drive than triodes,
voltage swing to a pentode grid is much smaller than for a triode...
so that when you switch from an ultraliner to a triode,
there is a shift in operating points, and it is not optimal
for a triode, surely it will work nevertheless...
a triode is a like a thevenin source, a pentode a norton source...
in the future, i hope you can get to listen to a pure pentode amp
and that will add another dimension to your experience...

[ricky]

If you are going to build your own speakers , lagyan mo na ng 8"-12" drivers sa side for that oooomph hahaha

Try mo din audition kef ls50 , small footprint, also Qacoustic speakers(maganda na mura)

[balarila]

If you are going to build your own speakers , lagyan mo na ng 8"-12" drivers sa side for that oooomph hahaha

Try mo din audition kef ls50 , small footprint, also Qacoustic speakers(maganda na mura)

Kulam alert!

Haaay, BI ka talaga, pare.

[balarila]

let me try to give you an insight as to why you found ultralinear more
to your liking....for one it has more power and so can provide more spl...it has a local feedback to the screen grids that lowers plate resistance to make it mimic a triode.....

pentodes are much easier to drive than triodes,
voltage swing to a pentode grid is much smaller than for a triode...
so that when you switch from an ultraliner to a triode,
there is a shift in operating points, and it is not optimal
for a triode, surely it will work nevertheless...
a triode is a like a thevenin source, a pentode a norton source...
in the future, i hope you can get to listen to a pure pentode amp
and that will add another dimension to your experience...

Thanks for explaining.  I can understand voltage swings and grids.  But thevenin and norton are alien to me.  Or, perhaps this senile mind chose to forget it.

Will have to read up som more...

[JojoD818]

Thanks!

You're right.  I'm a masochist when it comes to woodworking.

On the stuffing/finetuning, I guess I can leave the front panel unglued, just clamped, while I adjust the filling, gluing only when I'm sure it sounded good.

If I could construct both FH3 and ON properly, which one would you think have better bass (as I think the small drivers trickle off in low freqs)?  Or bottom-line which one would produce better sound quality?  I know this could be subjective but I appreciate even opinions.  I could not find any comparisons of the two.

Aren't we all?

Yes you may want to do that first while your tuning it to your liking. Take note though that overstuffing will actually decrease bass response due to coefficient of absorption and the fact that it does take valuable space, hence reduction in internal volume occurs.

I have always always always (many times over in this very forum) reminded builders not to rely on stuffing, the box should be spot on as is, the very first time, as close to what's published on paper or either the design is flawed or you did not do your homework properly.

Naku Ding, it's a compromise eh. Both will exhibit excellent bass response so long as it is within the bounds of confined space. The ON however will sound bigger IF you have a larger room, but unfortunately, a loose driver compliance due to the propagating chambers will/may unload the drivers at lower frequencies. The FH otoh will have a more controlled driver compliance (again because of the single, constant expansion horn) and will exhibit a more reinforced bass response even below the driver's free-air resonant frequency.

I hope I did not lose you in there. In simplest terms, the FH will have a smarter bass management than the ON for the same amount of acoustic energy, The latter will unload far earlier and rolloff the low frequency as a consequence.

Finally, as you have already said, this is a subjective matter. However, I have tried (my best) to be rather intuitive and based my opinions from personal experience. And yes, "nanorotot" din ako dati, wala na nga lang ako space ngayon kaya in the future na lang ulit ako mag horn speakers.

[balarila]

I think I got the gist of it, Jojo.

Those too many bends in the ON could scrape off bass.  I just like the looks of the ON much more than the FH3, though.

Perhaps I'll go for the FH3 then.  A much simpler build.

BTW, my room is about 16' x 12'.  Not sure if that's a factor.

[JojoD818]

Another factor to consider is time alignment, since the bulk of the lower frequencies will emanate from the horn mouth, this will be delayed more in the ON's maze-like chambers.

I would suggest the FH too for the room size.

[tony]

Thanks for explaining.  I can understand voltage swings and grids.  But thevenin and norton are alien to me.  Or, perhaps this senile mind chose to forget it.

Will have to read up som more...

i never forget lesson learned in college, it makes it easier to grasps
the concepts.....medyo kinakalawang na rin sa math, but if you understand the principles behind it math follows naturally....
said another way, a norton is like a current source while thevenin is a voltage source....if you look at the tube datasheets for pentodes and
triodes this will be so easy to see if you want to learn it...
finally, the same tube like the EL34 will have different set of curves
for triode or pentode....
tubes are a joy to learn....

[balarila]

Another factor to consider is time alignment, since the bulk of the lower frequencies will emanate from the horn mouth, this will be delayed more in the ON's maze-like chambers.

I would suggest the FH too for the room size.

Thanks, Jojo.

Using the distance of my planned speaker location to my listening position plus the distance sound would travel from back of driver to the mouth of the speaker and applying speed of sound (340m/s), sound from the horn mouth would be delayed by 0.02 seconds vs the ones from the front of the driver.  Is that significant?  I can only calculate but have no knowledge of how much the delay would affect listening experience.

[balarila]

...but if you understand the principles behind it math follows naturally....

Completely agree.  When I used to teach high school physics, I always made it a point to be more graphical and experiential than mathematical.  If the kids can understand and visualize the mechanics and have some good math foundation, easier for them to grasp and apply.

[tony]

Completely agree.  When I used to teach high school physics, I always made it a point to be more graphical and experiential than mathematical.  If the kids can understand and visualize the mechanics and have some good math foundation, easier for them to grasp and apply.

very true, in the facebook groups where i post, i tell
young kids, do not ask for formulas that you will soon forget,
ask instead the principles and the reasoning behind those,
if they do that, formulas will be very easy...

[balarila]

Thanks, Jojo.

Using the distance of my planned speaker location to my listening position plus the distance sound would travel from back of driver to the mouth of the speaker and applying speed of sound (340m/s), sound from the horn mouth would be delayed by 0.02 seconds vs the ones from the front of the driver.  Is that significant?  I can only calculate but have no knowledge of how much the delay would affect listening experience.

Oops. Mali ang math. I should have calculated using only the delta between front and back paths. So baka 0.01 sec difference lang or less.

[JojoD818]

Thanks, Jojo.

Using the distance of my planned speaker location to my listening position plus the distance sound would travel from back of driver to the mouth of the speaker and applying speed of sound (340m/s), sound from the horn mouth would be delayed by 0.02 seconds vs the ones from the front of the driver.  Is that significant?  I can only calculate but have no knowledge of how much the delay would affect listening experience.

Oops. Mali ang math. I should have calculated using only the delta between front and back paths. So baka 0.01 sec difference lang or less.

The delay will exponentially increase because of the difference in frequency. But fwiw, it would not be something that we should worry about. Besides, these delay phenomenon is more pronounced in wide area auditoriums and theaters.

[F. Dandy]

hello everyone,  just share the one time setup of our diy amplifier stuff

1. Class A (vacuum tube), Class AB and Class-D  diy AMP  music test  (wala lang magawa during the 2016 christmas holiday)
 
https://youtu.be/hCYUxS_z36o


2.  Class AB  +  Tube pre-amplifier   (Hybrid)

https://youtu.be/8PaWhCTECzc


PS:
youtube video may not play correctly on your device/country due to copyrighted , well I hope  youtube release the ban  as  we're just diyer's who used music to spice up our diy  amplifiers, we love their music.

[audiojunkie]

An error occurred when I play...

[F. Dandy]

See it on Youku  (cencia na lang kung di maintindihan at mabasa)

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjQ4NTA3OTA0MA==.html


2.  Class AB  +  Tube pre-amplifier   (Hybrid) ---------- should work well on youtube wala naman ban ito

youtube :      https://youtu.be/8PaWhCTECzc

if not OK, see it here  in Youku :       http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTgzMjU5MzA4MA==.html

@ TS,
you might like to have the 3 classes of Amp (Class A, AB and D, not sure you want the Class "H") in your critical listening pleasure, its more fun to have 3 (some).... the more the merrier.