Author Topic: Speaker DIY'ers  (Read 308043 times)

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Offline deist

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1140 on: Sep 03, 2014 at 01:10 PM »
Pa-share naman ng number ng lawyer mo master, I might need a "creative' thinking lawyer someday  ;D >:D


yan din sabi lawyer ko eh... know and follow the rules before you break them! ;D ;D ;D

Offline JojoD818

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1141 on: Sep 03, 2014 at 01:15 PM »
Pa-share naman ng number ng lawyer mo master, I might need a "creative' thinking lawyer someday  ;D >:D



hahaha sure! anong forte ang gusto mo brader? pang criminal o civil case? sabihan mo lang ako which rules you want to break hahaha! ;D ;D ;D


Offline deist

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1142 on: Sep 03, 2014 at 01:17 PM »
This is what I'm talking about, the calculators/simulators will be a big help as a starting point of a project. Without a solid starting point you will be shooting aimlessly. Thanks sir.


Tama kayo brader, kailangan ang science dito at mathematics aside from endless research form infonet (Internet ). Dinaanan ko yan dagdag bawas ng values kahit meron na value sa calculation. Values are just the starting point pero the actual result depende sa drivers actual performance at integration or blending between drivers. Kahit fixed na ang cut-off freq. kailangan din extended listening session of different genre ng music. Took me almost a year to fine tune and finalized the design. I also accumulated a box of x-over parts dahil sa daming kinahoy na speakers.  The added toroid is part of a circuit for bass driver..




Thanks for sharing the details sir. It shows na talagang malaking panahon ang ginugol mo from research to execution.

Thank you sir.... It's my weekend & holidays project ...

Yes, the 3 drivers mounted at flat panel. Woofer w/ H frame enclosure, open at the back but front form like Bandpass type. Originally, it's 12" woofer but found 15" which matches well with the configuration. So, it's now version 2 w/ 15" woofer. Midrange is 6.5" vintage wharfedale coated paper cone (very open in vocal). Twt-1 1" seas & Twt-2 kenwood horn.

Cut-off freq. bass- 80hz/12db, mid- 130hz/6db (low) - 3.5khz/12db (high), T1- 3.5khz/12db~ 22khz(max), T-2- 16khz/12db~ 50khz(max). Mid,T1&T2 are fixed attenuated to not use L-pad. Used same notch filter and impedance equalization from driver original crossover. If you notice freq. gap bet woofer & mid, in theory and number there's freq. hole but in real world of dipole environment our ears will not hear it. I also made the BP low 6db, @ 1 octave it covers down to 65hz. Fine tuning were done by extended listening sessions and opinions from friends who have different sound quality perceptions...
« Last Edit: Sep 03, 2014 at 01:56 PM by deist »

Offline deist

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1143 on: Sep 03, 2014 at 01:17 PM »
CRIMINAL!!!!!  >:D >:D >:D


hahaha sure! anong forte ang gusto mo brader? pang criminal o civil case? sabihan mo lang ako which rules you want to break hahaha! ;D ;D ;D

Offline JojoD818

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1144 on: Sep 03, 2014 at 01:18 PM »
Ang layo mo pala! Magpapa book muna ko.

Compared sa total cost of passive parts for a complicated xover, di na rin lalayo sa presyo ng active. I use MiniDsp 2x8 @ $300. Though me additional processing, one would not notice kung di mo lang ipapaalam sa nakikinig. But you have tons of flexibility naman like delay, different types of filters and slopes, EQ, etc.


Delay is very important imho, plus the passive solution also causes phase angle deviations. The best yan naging solution mo brader.

Can you please tell us more about this MiniDSP?


Offline JojoD818

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1145 on: Sep 03, 2014 at 01:19 PM »
CRIMINAL!!!!!  >:D >:D >:D



Hahaha! Somehow, I knew it! >:D

Offline deist

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1146 on: Sep 03, 2014 at 01:23 PM »
Been hearing a lot of good experience with MiniDSP from many users over at DIYaudio, maybe in my next build will try to incorporate it. Also eager to hear your experience with it sir Larry.


Delay is very important imho, plus the passive solution also causes phase angle deviations. The best yan naging solution mo brader.

Can you please tell us more about this MiniDSP?
« Last Edit: Sep 03, 2014 at 01:27 PM by deist »

Offline deist

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1147 on: Sep 03, 2014 at 01:25 PM »
malapit na  ;) >:D


Hahaha! Somehow, I knew it! >:D

Offline JojoD818

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1148 on: Sep 03, 2014 at 01:29 PM »
malapit na  ;) >:D



magtimpi ang unang payo sa akin eh... but if all else failes, naka speed dial naman ang number sa cell ko... >:D




Been hearing a lot of good experience with MiniDSP from many users over at DIYaudio, maybe in my next build will try to incorporate it. Also eager to hear your experience with it sir Larry.


Yes seriously, this may have a big difference when in the right place.

Offline deist

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1149 on: Sep 03, 2014 at 01:35 PM »
Kaya pa naman magtimpi, sabi nga ni Martin Lawrence - "wooooossssaaaaaa"  ;)

magtimpi ang unang payo sa akin eh... but if all else failes, naka speed dial naman ang number sa cell ko... >:D

Offline majoe

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1150 on: Sep 03, 2014 at 01:35 PM »
Been hearing a lot of good experience with MiniDSP from many users over at DIYaudio, maybe in my next build will try to incorporate it. Also eager to hear your experience with it sir Larry.


meron na bang avr may ganitong capability?  ito ang matagal ko ng hinahanap na feature sa avr. kaya mag tri amp using active cross over. sayang naman kasi dsp ng avr.

Offline camoteque

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1151 on: Sep 03, 2014 at 04:06 PM »

Delay is very important imho, plus the passive solution also causes phase angle deviations. The best yan naging solution mo brader.

Can you please tell us more about this MiniDSP?



Ang maganda sa DSP, expert ka agad. :) :) :)

Kidding aside, the minidsp 2x8 requires a separate dc supply. Also, a plugin that can be purchased from minidsp.com. Yung sakin, nilagay ko lang sa wooden box but I'm sure mas maganda kung magawan ng magandang aluminum enclosure ito. You need a pc to be able to use the plugin, ofcourse. There is where you do the adjustments and settings.

Digital domain ang processing ng minidsp unlike other active crossovers. Mas flexible siya at mas maraming features. I was able to try a Sony Esprit active analog crossover which is very much expensive compared to the minidsp but I still like the resulting SQ from the minidsp. Mas kapit ika nga. Mas marami pa yatang brand na mas mahal pa sa minidsp pero ok na ko dito.

Importante sakin ang delay kasi if you will see my speakers, nakaforward ang woofers at nasa likod ang compression drivers and compression tweeters. Physically, I have no way anymore of adjusting the vertical alignment of my drivers because of physical constraints. With dsp, I can put some delay sa woofers. Malaking improvement sa integration ng bawat drivers and sa imaging. With dsp also, I was able to EQ bass sa aking system. Me certain frequencies na na-eexcite ng room ko. I cut a few db sa problem freq and ok na. What I don't do is add. I'd rather cut. But it's just me. No equalization sa mids and highs akong ginawa.

Picture of my present speakers


You have the option to use Butterworth, Linkwitz Riley, Bessel. Up to 48db/oct pwede. You can also cut the frequencies where you think your drivers work at their best and can even introduce holes in the frequencies between where two drivers operate para walang masyadong sapawan. Mataas pa sampling rate @96khz. Napakahirap gawin sa passive crossover ng magagawa nito and it will surely cost a lot.

Ang ayaw lang ng mga purists is the additional processing. Pero sa totoo lang, they will not even notice kung di mo lang sasabihin. Maganda pa rin magpatugtog ng plaka! Ang isang compromise solution is to mimic in passive when one had already tuned the settings in digital.



« Last Edit: Sep 03, 2014 at 04:14 PM by camoteque »

Offline audiojunkie

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1152 on: Sep 03, 2014 at 06:12 PM »
Nose bleed ako ngayon sa MiniDSP....  ;D
Anthem CD1
Anthem Pre1
Audio Linear TT
Ortofon Rondo Red
Theta Dac
GTA SE-40 Amp
JBL L7
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Offline audiojunkie

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1153 on: Sep 03, 2014 at 06:27 PM »
This is what I'm talking about, the calculators/simulators will be a big help as a starting point of a project. Without a solid starting point you will be shooting aimlessly. Thanks sir.

Thanks for sharing the details sir. It shows na talagang malaking panahon ang ginugol mo from research to execution.


Isang pa nakalimutan ko, in the process of fine tuning I installed variable L-pad to be easily adjusted either I have to reduce or increase value. From there I have to start listening again.

 From my reading in countless DIY forums, I found the best or suggested distance between drivers for easy integration. Unfortunately, I forgot to save the link.
Anthem CD1
Anthem Pre1
Audio Linear TT
Ortofon Rondo Red
Theta Dac
GTA SE-40 Amp
JBL L7
AudioQuest

Offline camoteque

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1154 on: Sep 03, 2014 at 10:25 PM »
Nose bleed ako ngayon sa MiniDSP....  ;D


Basa basa na lang sa net Sir! Mas magaling sila mag explain.

Offline JojoD818

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1155 on: Sep 03, 2014 at 11:54 PM »
Ang maganda sa DSP, expert ka agad. :) :) :)

Kidding aside, the minidsp 2x8 requires a separate dc supply. Also, a plugin that can be purchased from minidsp.com. Yung sakin, nilagay ko lang sa wooden box but I'm sure mas maganda kung magawan ng magandang aluminum enclosure ito. You need a pc to be able to use the plugin, ofcourse. There is where you do the adjustments and settings.

Digital domain ang processing ng minidsp unlike other active crossovers. Mas flexible siya at mas maraming features. I was able to try a Sony Esprit active analog crossover which is very much expensive compared to the minidsp but I still like the resulting SQ from the minidsp. Mas kapit ika nga. Mas marami pa yatang brand na mas mahal pa sa minidsp pero ok na ko dito.

Importante sakin ang delay kasi if you will see my speakers, nakaforward ang woofers at nasa likod ang compression drivers and compression tweeters. Physically, I have no way anymore of adjusting the vertical alignment of my drivers because of physical constraints. With dsp, I can put some delay sa woofers. Malaking improvement sa integration ng bawat drivers and sa imaging. With dsp also, I was able to EQ bass sa aking system. Me certain frequencies na na-eexcite ng room ko. I cut a few db sa problem freq and ok na. What I don't do is add. I'd rather cut. But it's just me. No equalization sa mids and highs akong ginawa.

Picture of my present speakers


You have the option to use Butterworth, Linkwitz Riley, Bessel. Up to 48db/oct pwede. You can also cut the frequencies where you think your drivers work at their best and can even introduce holes in the frequencies between where two drivers operate para walang masyadong sapawan. Mataas pa sampling rate @96khz. Napakahirap gawin sa passive crossover ng magagawa nito and it will surely cost a lot.

Ang ayaw lang ng mga purists is the additional processing. Pero sa totoo lang, they will not even notice kung di mo lang sasabihin. Maganda pa rin magpatugtog ng plaka! Ang isang compromise solution is to mimic in passive when one had already tuned the settings in digital.






Hi Larry,

Thanks for the concise info brader, parang masarap paglaruan yan. How about EQ'ing? Natuwa ako sa Behringer Ultra Curve, very useful basta wag lang abusive ang use. Oh well, kanya-kanya din yan eh.

Anyway, wala naman siguro problema sa akin ang separate power supply, marunong pa naman ako siguro gumawa nun hahaha! ;D Kaya ko na din gawan ng wood casing yan pero parang mas gusto ko yata kung aluminum brader.

Last question, hindi kaya ako mabaliw sa mga pag ayos ng plugins? I mean, user friendly naman ba siya?

Thanks!

PS: Nice speaker setup bro!

Offline camoteque

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1156 on: Sep 04, 2014 at 01:38 AM »

Hi Larry,

Thanks for the concise info brader, parang masarap paglaruan yan. How about EQ'ing? Natuwa ako sa Behringer Ultra Curve, very useful basta wag lang abusive ang use. Oh well, kanya-kanya din yan eh.

Anyway, wala naman siguro problema sa akin ang separate power supply, marunong pa naman ako siguro gumawa nun hahaha! ;D Kaya ko na din gawan ng wood casing yan pero parang mas gusto ko yata kung aluminum brader.

Last question, hindi kaya ako mabaliw sa mga pag ayos ng plugins? I mean, user friendly naman ba siya?

Thanks!

PS: Nice speaker setup bro!

Thanks bro.

Parang driverack PA+ din ang Behringer di ba? Kays lang parang may tweak pa yata ginagawa sa Behringer para gumanda SQ. Baka di na lalayo yan sa Minidsp kasi pareho halos function. Advantage ng Behringer ay may monitor na agad itong kasama whereas kailangan pa ng PC ng minidsp kung me adjustment ka.

Madali lang ang mga Plugins. Very user friendly. Napakadali magpalit ng cutoff freq and slope. And you can change them even while listening to the speakers. Very minimal lang ang EQ ko at sa woofers lang. Kelangan kong attenuate konti a certain freq na problem sa room ko. Mainly ang adjustment ko ay sa volume control na ng amplifiers sa final blending ng drivers at di na sa minidsp.

Offline JojoD818

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1157 on: Sep 04, 2014 at 01:53 PM »
Thanks bro.

Parang driverack PA+ din ang Behringer di ba? Kays lang parang may tweak pa yata ginagawa sa Behringer para gumanda SQ. Baka di na lalayo yan sa Minidsp kasi pareho halos function. Advantage ng Behringer ay may monitor na agad itong kasama whereas kailangan pa ng PC ng minidsp kung me adjustment ka.

Madali lang ang mga Plugins. Very user friendly. Napakadali magpalit ng cutoff freq and slope. And you can change them even while listening to the speakers.



Yup mismo brader, it's like the driverack PA+, plus some more bells and whistles. No problem sa SQ management, may experience na ako diyan. Some of the mods at diyaudio owns the Behringer and I did the mods on the Behringer of diyaudio's big boss so I already got my feet wet sabi nga nila.

I tried reading through minidsp site and medyo naintindihan ko naman, akala ko kasi yun mga plugin parang machine language pa. ;D


Quote
Very minimal lang ang EQ ko at sa woofers lang. Kelangan kong attenuate konti a certain freq na problem sa room ko. Mainly ang adjustment ko ay sa volume control na ng amplifiers sa final blending ng drivers at di na sa minidsp.


Ito ang maganda sa Behringer/driverack/minidsp, just enough EQ to flatten the response, may PEQ for correcting room response or kung tinatamad may AEQ (auto eq) using the RTA/Mic input for real-time compensation.

Offline camoteque

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1158 on: Sep 04, 2014 at 03:02 PM »
Jojo,

Grabe pala naman. Ikaw pala ang nagmomodify ng behringer eh! Op amp ba ang pnapalitan?

Di ko gusto ang kinalalabasan sa auto-EQ sa experience ko sa mga gumamit ng driverack. Parang sobrang bright ang tunog. Mas maganda, IME, sa driverack (ewan ko sa behringer) is to flatten ung mga peaks na dinagdag sa auto-EQ. Un namang mga binawasan, as is na lang.

Offline JojoD818

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1159 on: Sep 04, 2014 at 03:31 PM »
Jojo,

Grabe pala naman. Ikaw pala ang nagmomodify ng behringer eh! Op amp ba ang pnapalitan?




Silent worker lang brad... ;D May options na opamp bypass, or straight bypass ng output section. Yun kasi output section niya may DAC/ADC section pa for the balanced output, what we do is go straight and take the signal right off the DAC and either put an onboard opamp section OR (ito bagay sa atin mga tubero) feed that to a vacuum tube voltage amplifier.

Parang MiniDSP lang din, madami nasisira ulo sa diyaudio sa pag improve - the good thing is maganda naman at may proper foundation ang mods at may improvement talaga, hindi snake oil.

Quote
Di ko gusto ang kinalalabasan sa auto-EQ sa experience ko sa mga gumamit ng driverack. Parang sobrang bright ang tunog. Mas maganda, IME, sa driverack (ewan ko sa behringer) is to flatten ung mga peaks na dinagdag sa auto-EQ. Un namang mga binawasan, as is na lang.

IMHO, dito panalo ang MiniDSP, user-defined lahat via plugins. Unlike sa Behringer at Driverack may pre-programmed na sa UI ang AEQ although pwede naman i-manual select/adjust after the AEQ process, yun nga lang tedious experience.

But like you said, may monitor na sila behringer/driverack unlike si minidsp need pa ng host pc. Small trade-off lang naman so it's going to be somewhat subjective na, per user preference na kung baga.

Naku medyo na side-track na yata ang thread, pero di pa naman OT kasi about multi-drivers pa din naman usapan hehehe... :P Healthy discussion nonetheless.

Offline xbase

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1160 on: Sep 04, 2014 at 04:23 PM »
keep it coming mga master about minidsp/behringer mods. interestedto learn that for proper tuning of our DIY speakers! if ever na gumawa kayo ng ibang thread pa share link. thanks...

Offline majoe

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1161 on: Sep 04, 2014 at 10:37 PM »
keep it coming mga master about minidsp/behringer mods. interestedto learn that for proper tuning of our DIY speakers! if ever na gumawa kayo ng ibang thread pa share link. thanks...

ito lang yata talaga solution sa multi drivers configuration para matapatan o mahigitan ang may pinaka magandang full range performance. baka in the near future, ang speaker system natin ay parang midi channels na rin. iba iba ang drivers per instrument at vocals :D 
di ko lang alam kung papatok ito sa mga audio purist. hehe.

Offline audiojunkie

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1162 on: Sep 04, 2014 at 11:06 PM »
ito lang yata talaga solution sa multi drivers configuration para matapatan o mahigitan ang may pinaka magandang full range performance. baka in the near future, ang speaker system natin ay parang midi channels na rin. iba iba ang drivers per instrument at vocals :D 
di ko lang alam kung papatok ito sa mga audio purist. hehe.

IMHO, FR in a box also has it own way of equalization by volume of stuffing inside. This way it controls any unwanted resonance of the driver and also what frequency you want to tame or highlight to suit your taste.

I had a chance to hear AN at friend's place, it was ok, or may be it just need more tweaking in the stuffing to sound best.

Anthem CD1
Anthem Pre1
Audio Linear TT
Ortofon Rondo Red
Theta Dac
GTA SE-40 Amp
JBL L7
AudioQuest

Offline camoteque

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1163 on: Sep 05, 2014 at 06:05 AM »
ito lang yata talaga solution sa multi drivers configuration para matapatan o mahigitan ang may pinaka magandang full range performance. baka in the near future, ang speaker system natin ay parang midi channels na rin. iba iba ang drivers per instrument at vocals :D 
di ko lang alam kung papatok ito sa mga audio purist. hehe.
Di lang naman ito ang solution sa multi-driver speakers. Nandyan din ang passive line-level xover o PLLXO. You can google it. Me thread pa yata ito sa DIYAUDIO.

Gaya nga nang sabi ko sa mga nauna kong posts, kung blind testing, mas malaki possibility na di man malalaman ng nakikinig na gumamit ka ng digital /analog active xover kung di mo lang sasabihin. I think the advantages outweighs the disadvantages (as compared to passive xover ha). Parang naka-fullrange din ang coupling ng drivers sa amplifiers kaya full control ang amps sa drivers.

Di man siguro OT ito kasi speaker DIYers naman ang thread.


Offline camoteque

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1164 on: Sep 05, 2014 at 06:27 AM »
May solusyon pala sa "audio purists" - bumili ng dalawang system.  :)

Actually yan ang plano ko in the future. Maybe a simple full range para kapag uugod-ugod na ko, isa o dalawang switch na lang ang i-oopen ko  may music na ko. Ngayon kasi, I have to turn-on 9 switches including 2 AVRs para makinig ng plaka, 7 switches naman pag digital. Ha ha!

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1165 on: Sep 05, 2014 at 07:33 AM »
May solusyon pala sa "audio purists" - bumili ng dalawang system.  :)

Actually yan ang plano ko in the future. Maybe a simple full range para kapag uugod-ugod na ko, isa o dalawang switch na lang ang i-oopen ko  may music na ko. Ngayon kasi, I have to turn-on 9 switches including 2 AVRs para makinig ng plaka, 7 switches naman pag digital. Ha ha!

Larry,
yung sa akin isa lang ang switch tutunog na, parang radyo....:D
we are lucky to be in a changing world, no more shyness about using DACs
and active cross-overs which are SS and then using tubes to connect to speakers...
this can only mean more enjoyment for the audio enthusiast,
the diy'ers never ending quest for that magical sound without
nescessarily breaking the bank goes on unimpeded....:D
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline camoteque

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1166 on: Sep 05, 2014 at 07:46 AM »
Tony,

Correct ka Sir!. Sa akin lang, the moment you said to yourself na Game Over na dahil nakuha mo na gusto mo tunog is the time you also stop na sa audio and concern yourself with other hobbies. Never ending kasi ang audio.

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1167 on: Sep 05, 2014 at 02:29 PM »
the day it ends is the day I die... I'm desperately trying other hobbies but I end up where I started...


Offline timber715

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1168 on: Sep 05, 2014 at 03:17 PM »
the day it ends is the day I die... I'm desperately trying other hobbies but I end up where I started...


Ako naman, when i die... I will try something new. Hehehe

Offline Gino

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Re: Speaker DIY'ers
« Reply #1169 on: Sep 05, 2014 at 03:57 PM »
The coffin you will make must be awesome.