Author Topic: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers  (Read 19053 times)

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Offline JojoD818

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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #90 on: Sep 17, 2004 at 07:45 PM »
'OLALA!!---I now feel that m inside the amp--tryin to figure what is causing what  ::)

Your not even touching the surface.

Offline av_phile1

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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #91 on: Sep 17, 2004 at 08:18 PM »
I wouldn't be correcting you anymore because knowing is far from understanding. I just hope that your belief or shall I say knowledge of audio power amplifiers is as accurate so that others can benefit from your informative posts.

Have a nice one,
JojoD

Well , my apologies if I gravely misunderstood your post.  Pardon me for  thinking you were referring to the 1% THD amp.  But you are right if you meant the ROTEL amp.  It is a lot superior, no doubt as its THD across the entire bandwidth as published IS the highest.  But, like I said, do correct me if I am in error.  I'd miss your corrections if you abandon that.     

Offline JojoD818

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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #92 on: Sep 17, 2004 at 08:18 PM »


Well my statements of understanding are there for people to scrutinize and weigh for themselves. I really don't have to impose my understanding on them.  I don't know about your kind of understanding.  I simply try to figure out the logic of your statements using your kind of understanding.

I would leave the scrutiny and weighing of your understandings to others. I'm sure others are more than happy to do that.

My kind of understanding is the understanding that came from research, experiments and actual applications. I donot copy and paste my understanding if that's what you mean.

Offline av_phile1

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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #93 on: Sep 17, 2004 at 08:22 PM »
Well too bad you got my earlier post which I regretted posting and changed accordingly, after re-reading your earlier posts.   But, the die is cast.  Notwithstanding this, my apologies remain. So are my statements about the topic in this thread.
« Last Edit: Sep 17, 2004 at 08:25 PM by av_phile1 »

Offline JojoD818

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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #94 on: Sep 17, 2004 at 08:32 PM »
Well too bad you got my earlier post which I regretted posting and changed accordingly, after re-reading your earlier posts.   But, the die is cast.  Notwithstanding this, my apologies remain.

No need for apologies, we all make mistakes.  ;)

JojoD

Offline aHobbit

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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #95 on: Sep 18, 2004 at 01:49 PM »
Medyo nakakahilo na nga bro jerix ano? But ganyan talaga when you search for knowledge, medyo masakit...... sa ulo. When we strive to grow, pain is always the result. Again, Growing Pains nga, di ba? I'm just an observer here hoping na maambunan naman ako ng katalinuhan ng mga taong ito. Thanks, mga bro.

There you are guys!!!  ;D

And to think, this is just the tip of the iceberg  :P

Care for more???

Those THD measurement these amp manufacturer does are all made using bogus speakers - just load resistors - not real speakers.  >:D

And real world speakers don't have fixed impedance!  :o   Your 6 ohms and 8 ohms etc etc, are again just the average. It has dips and peaks. And amp power and THD also varies (notwithstanding, the frequency as well) as these impedance varies - from frequency to frequency.  :-[

ANd here is the bomb!  ;D

Your amp reacts on the kind of speaker you are using - those cable / cross-over / driver impedance combination - do wreak havoc on those paper measurement.  ;D

Now you learn more - and you learn better. The value of an amp is in listening with it on your speaker setup. The paper specs will not bring you anywhere closer to what you want to happen - high-end sound.   ;). But I got one  ;D  - read my lips !!!

The higher power of hyped amps will not guarantee you good sound.  :P  Those published hyped low THD will give you indeed good sound ?? IF and ONLY IF you use plain resistor as your speakers !! ;D

Now you know who really shot his foot?   8)

Merry Christmas!
« Last Edit: Sep 19, 2004 at 03:53 PM by aHobbit »
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Offline JojoD818

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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #96 on: Sep 19, 2004 at 02:28 PM »
Absolutely. I do believe that tests are done using resistive loads, unfortunately we live in a real world where speakers are seen by our amps as reactive loads.  ;D

That's life I guess, where theory and reality meets.  ;)

Offline jerix

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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #97 on: Sep 20, 2004 at 08:07 AM »
Your amp reacts on the kind of speaker you are using - those cable / cross-over / driver impedance combination - do wreak havoc on those paper measurement.  ;D


I know that a significant amount of THD causes the phenomenon called "listening fatigue." It seems then that other factors may also bring this listening fatigue--  ::)  So among all the factors you know, including this THD, what should be the factor we have to look into foremost and the factor we look into as the least maybe? ;)

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Offline lance

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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #98 on: Sep 20, 2004 at 09:08 AM »
 ::) ahhh yun pala yung 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers.  ;D  ;D  ;D

Thanks to JojoD818 & av_phile1 and to many contributors to this thread. Dami ko natutunan dito ah. Now I know what to do when i decided to buy new amp.  :)
This link might help you with your kids.

Offline aHobbit

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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #99 on: Sep 20, 2004 at 10:36 AM »


I know that a significant amount of THD causes the phenomenon called "listening fatigue." It seems then that other factors may also bring this listening fatigue--  ::)  So among all the factors you know, including this THD, what should be the factor we have to look into foremost and the factor we look into as the least maybe? ;)


Jerix,

did not get your questions - what should be the factor we have to look into  WHAT?

Listening fatigue is caused by a number of factors. too much into bass, or your listening area is not tweaked to avoid frequency bounces, so many drivers making bass frequency, your source or your source materials are not recorded (equalized) accordingly or your speaker is not matched tonally with amp, too high listening level bombarding your ear - I may never end.

Some of these things are not true on other people - as listening is too subjective a discussion - and depends on each likings, exposure in music or sound, type of sound, etc etc.

If you can clarify the above question, I will try to answer you.

If it is about how to buy your gear in a practical way, perhaps we should open a new thread. Buying based on published specs will only entail you to compare their papers on your PC, and voila - you have your decision!  :P


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Offline av_phile1

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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #100 on: Sep 20, 2004 at 10:39 AM »
Those paper specs as some twerp call them are precisely what defines the product it describes.  Afterall, it is specs that made the product in the first place. They have NOTHING to do with your personal listening preferrences.  You can get your kicks listening to an amp rated at 10% THD/IM for all I care.  And while it is so much easier to say: do your own listening, the ears are unfortunately the most inaccurate piece of measuring device on earth.  No set of ears will yield you the same measure consistently across any condition.

SO those specs provide the basic description of a product that have been arrived at using common measurements conditions made by dispassionate measuring devices to allow consumers to compare on a level playing field which equipment they will audition.  Much like doing an elimination process where applicant biodata for employment is concerned.  And like biodata, product specs are often hyped to gain market acceptance.  Those gears measured to extract the most numbers in power rating are exactly that - overhyped.  Period.  And like employmnet procedures, your auditioning will yield your own personal assessment of the product in question as a job interview will.  

Too bad people in the HR department knows an overhyped biodata when they see one.  Same with people in the know in this hobby. So if they discard amp with specs measured under non-audophile grade conditions, then down the wastebasket they go.  Not worth wasting their time auditioning.  

You can pooh pooh aper specs to kingdom come. But that doesn't change the fact that there are excellent products measured under conservative conditions that are preffered among serious audiophiles. And there are overhyped specs made by overly anxious manufacturers for inadequate products that will never deliver on the promise made eir specs.  The choice in entirely yours.
« Last Edit: Sep 20, 2004 at 10:43 AM by av_phile1 »

Offline av_phile1

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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #101 on: Sep 20, 2004 at 11:04 AM »
Absolutely. I do believe that tests are done using resistive loads, unfortunately we live in a real world where speakers are seen by our amps as reactive loads.  ;D

That's life I guess, where theory and reality meets.  ;)

That's right. Knowing that speakers have varying reactive loads to frequencies ABOVE their minimum resistive value, and that one speaker brand would have different reaction plots from another brand, , a RESISTIVE load is used as the common practice to terminate an amp when measuring in order to obtain a more CONSISTENT data and to preclude uncontrollable variances in their measuring conditions. 

And speakers themslves, across any price point,  have their own THDs to add and contribute to your ears. Hence, from the standpoint of measuring ONLY amps, reactive speakers would be a poor choice for isolating the performance of an amp.  And because speakers do add their own THDs, that makes considering only amps with the least possible distortion products even more compelling.
« Last Edit: Sep 20, 2004 at 11:05 AM by av_phile1 »

Offline jerix

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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #102 on: Sep 20, 2004 at 11:07 AM »


Jerix,

did not get your questions - what should be the factor we have to look into  WHAT?

Listening fatigue is caused by a number of factors. too much into bass, or your listening area is not tweaked to avoid frequency bounces, so many drivers making bass frequency, your source or your source materials are not recorded (equalized) accordingly or your speaker is not matched tonally with amp, too high listening level bombarding your ear - I may never end.

Some of these things are not true on other people - as listening is too subjective a discussion - and depends on each likings, exposure in music or sound, type of sound, etc etc.

If you can clarify the above question, I will try to answer you.

If it is about how to buy your gear in a practical way, perhaps we should open a new thread. Buying based on published specs will only entail you to compare their papers on your PC, and voila - you have your decision!  :P


i mean here bro that since listening fatigue after all, may not only be caused by a high level of THD but other factors like cables, speakers, source materials, and even the way you operate the sound system i supposed, and knowing the nature of THD (at least from what we gather from the discussions here...) now, is it really something that we have to be concerned the most to attain good listening?  thnx ;)

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Offline av_phile1

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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #103 on: Sep 20, 2004 at 11:27 AM »


I know that a significant amount of THD causes the phenomenon called "listening fatigue." It seems then that other factors may also bring this listening fatigue--  ::)  So among all the factors you know, including this THD, what should be the factor we have to look into foremost and the factor we look into as the least maybe? ;)



THD's in most respectable gears are low enough at their rated power.    But according to most experts who can correlate what they hear with what was measured, TIM, as I discussed above, are more objectionable.   Often the amp circuit designer has to make a balance. Using excessive negative feedbacks are said to decrease THDs to near unmeasurable levels, but at the expense of increasing other more serious distortion products called TIMs.

This is actually one of the reasons why getting a very powerful amp, usually above 250wpc, with even relatively substantial distortion products in the 0.1% range, are sometimes prefered, budget and main home line permitting, since you would never really reach that level at your comfortable listening levels.   So, effectively, you get no TIM and harmonic distortion products.  But crossover or switching distortion, a non-harmonic distortion product,  is another to consider at low listening levels using high powered amps.   Seems you rarely can win in this hobby. 

But having said that, there are some exquisite amps with exceptionally low THDs that have almost unmeasureable IMs and TIMs at their rated power as well.

Offline JojoD818

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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #104 on: Sep 20, 2004 at 12:37 PM »
I would just offer industry solutions to TIM and CD:

TIM: Is caused by overdriving the input stage of an amp causing it to slew and which has high NFB (negative feedback) for lower THD. Solution is to use higher gain/linear devices in the input stage to improve slew rate and of course, donot overdrive the input.

CD: This is simply caused by the switching if the output trasnsistos from the positive cycle to the negative cycle of the signal (it's a sine wave and everyone likes it  ;D). A momentary off-period during zero-crossing casuses crossover distortion. This only happens in several classes of amps but never in Class A, and you guessed it right, because there the output is already on but at the expense of efficiency wherein the amp dissipates heat even without an input signal. Solutions for this problem is the amp's idle-current setting. Setting it to a fairly high value should remove crossover distortion problems below listening levels if not completely.

Offline james16

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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #105 on: Sep 20, 2004 at 01:25 PM »
matindi na usapan dto di ko na maiintindihan?????

mag -gulaman na lang tayo!!!!  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline jerix

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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #106 on: Sep 20, 2004 at 01:51 PM »
Matindi nga ang discussion dito --  ;D many of the terms are highly technical -- but all is worth reading- ;)

But maybe it is best if you start with the first post so you will have a grasp on how the issues and discussions slowly developed--  ;)
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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #107 on: Sep 20, 2004 at 01:54 PM »
Matindi nga ang discussion dito --  ;D many of the terms are highly technical -- but all is worth reading- ;)

But maybe it is best if you start with the first post so you will have a grasp on how the issues and discussions slowly developed--  ;)

cge, cgurado maganda diskusyon dto  ;D

Offline audi0slave

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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #108 on: Sep 20, 2004 at 04:06 PM »
eto pala yung nabalitaan kong mainit na thread dito ngayon. ganda pala ng talakayan nyo dito.... ngayon ko lang nabasa... sana nakisawsaw din ako!! he he he   ::)

wala namang kwenta yang THD... THD na yan bakit nyo pinag-aawayan?   ;D ;D

CD Players na lang pag-usapan natin... pare-pareho lang tunog, di ba?  :o ;D
« Last Edit: Sep 20, 2004 at 04:09 PM by audi0slave »

Offline aHobbit

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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #109 on: Sep 20, 2004 at 04:09 PM »


i mean here bro that since listening fatigue after all, may not only be caused by a high level of THD but other factors like cables, speakers, source materials, and even the way you operate the sound system i supposed, and knowing the nature of THD (at least from what we gather from the discussions here...) now, is it really something that we have to be concerned the most to attain good listening?  thnx ;)



I don’t belong to the old school. I am familiar with what avphile1 is discussing. I did in the past what avphile is doing presently – to mention all those technos and try to find the best amplifier that my imagination created. I salivated on those  - what his term – exquisite? – amps. But not anymore.

See his part of post:

“…This is actually one of the reasons why getting a very powerful amp, usually above 250wpc, with even relatively substantial distortion products in the 0.1% range, are sometimes prefered, budget and main home line permitting, since you would never really reach that level at your comfortable listening levels…”


You will do this if you do not know what you are reading. A power amp rated 250wpc with no headroom will be surpassed by amp rated 150wpc with 3dB headroom – musically and theoretically. And to think that that 250watter will just sound only twice as loud as my 25watter. But theoretical things will just remain in the mind. So I put his summary in this statement – you can not buy amps knowing all those techno things he is trying to teach the newbies/non-techno audiophile in this thread.  :P

To answer you Jerix, be reminded of the following basic concepts:

(1) You need 10 times power to double loudness (volume) of a sound. This means if you want to double the loudness you are hearing from your 10watt stereo – you will have to upgrade to 100watt stereo – or perhaps upgrade your speaker with +3dB more sensitivity. See, the 250watter is not even twice as loud as a 30watter or more.

(2) What is your speaker – does it has soft dome / metal dome / or no dome at all – is it boomy / no bass / hard to drive – hi sensitivity.

(3) Are you using expensive speaker cable that are normally high in capacitance – or ordinary audio-grade speaker cable.

(4) Some of my research indicated that amps basically will sound the same because their goal is typically the same – to reproduce the audio frequency as faithfully as possible (theoretically). However, this is contrary to reality (practical terms), thus, some audiophile tended to prefer an amp over the other – thinking that is a better amp. But the real crux of the matter is that amplifiers react to different speakers (plus speaker cable - this being inductive, resistive and capacitive variables). Actual testing reveal real performance.


So in my case, I have an 8.3 at fairly 86dB sensitivity rated at 100W – textile (soft dome). I use ordinary audio-grade cable. Thus at 10Watt level, I have my 8.3 at half level loudness already. Would I want to drive it more than that? Perhaps. I will not attempt to load it close to 100W as it is the rated capacity of the speaker. Typically, a 25-watter up to about 75watts is enough for this type of speaker. How much less will it be if it is a 95-dB speaker that you have.

Also, it is the speaker that should dictate what amp to use, not the other way around. Meaning, choose your speaker first – siyempre yung gusto mo na. And when you bought one, find the amp suitable for your speaker. You have the above that gave you guidelines. This time, the amp.

Check amplifier rating – how many watt at what impedance and at what distortion. If an amplifier has published THD of less than 1% in 25Watt minimum – then this is a candidate for audition (power wise). So take for example my RX-V630 – 75wpc at .06% THD into 8 ohms. So the Pioneer, 100Wpc at 1%THD into 8ohms – what I do here is get the half (so it is 50watt), and this is safe assumption this gear is less than 1%THD in 50W – so is also a candidate. Some gears do publish specs like my Kenwood – 68Wpc at .1% THD (yata) and 80wpc at 10%THD into 6ohms. From this, you may note that the power with less 1%THD is higher than the half power point of 40watt (in fact 68watts). So Pioneer would arrive in about 85wpc with less than 1%THD.

You may have heard some people say when they audition the amp – it is forward, laid back, makalansing, mabass – pero they did not describe the condition of their ears. This is short of saying – you must audition your amp with your speaker – torture test it with varied frequency (using your favorite familiar CD using different tracts and different genre of music that you are listening to) and make sure your ears are wide open to note that what you are hearing is in fact what you wanted to hear in an amp.

The THD thingie should have its consideration at an acceptable typical listening power only – 25w to about 75w. If you develop deafness or angry at your neighbor – go ahead, indulge in 100Watts or more. Of course, 100watts or more has some reason – if your speaker is low sensitivity or hard to drive – but then again, high power may not always be the trick for hard-to-drive speakers – the right choice of an amplifier is, THD will not help you here – and this is gained by experience – not much reading the specs. Nowadays, the hard-to-drive speakers are the one sounding very good – but some have rather low sensitivity. THD does not matter at all if you are already enjoying the sound from the synergy of your system.

Do you believe rockers are serious audiophiles? They are usually the ones demanding for high power! You don’t need distortion issue on their amp IMHO. I think their music is basically it.

I hope this helps you doing amplifier hunting the practical way – theoretical specs reading is also good – at least for my comfort room activity.  ;D

My advise – don’t shoot your feet.  :o




« Last Edit: Sep 20, 2004 at 04:15 PM by aHobbit »
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Offline av_phile1

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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #110 on: Sep 20, 2004 at 04:18 PM »
eto pala yung nabalitaan kong mainit na thread dito ngayon. ganda pala ng talakayan nyo dito.... ngayon ko lang nabasa... sana nakisawsaw din ako!! he he he   ::)

wala namang kwenta yang THD... THD na yan bakit nyo pinag-aawayan?   ;D ;D

CD Players na lang pag-usapan natin... pare-pareho lang tunog, di ba?  :o ;D

It's really a non-issue with todays gears.  Except that a few items in the market would like to advertise and shout 100 watts per channel to attract consumers.  When it was measured at an unlistenable 1% THD.  Just a question of conservative or over-hyped power rating on specs.  The choice in entirely on the consumer. 

And don't say pare-pareho lang and mga CD players.  While I tend to agree to a certain extent, baka maraming magalit.  ;D
« Last Edit: Sep 20, 2004 at 04:19 PM by av_phile1 »

Offline audi0slave

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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #111 on: Sep 20, 2004 at 04:27 PM »

And don't say pare-pareho lang and mga CD players.  While I tend to agree to a certain extent, baka maraming magalit.  ;D

sir, i'm just echoing a famous quote from one of our more prominent PDVD member here... i myself would like to dispute that, that's why i'm going out of my way just to hear different brands, makes and production models of CDPs.  ;D

on the THD topic, (para di tayo OT), i think only NAD and Rotel are truthful when in comes to their THD claims or most of their specs, for that matter.... all the rest... hopia, mani, pop corn at siopao na lang yan....  ;D ;D ;D

gulaman na lang tayo, mas maganda usapan....
« Last Edit: Sep 20, 2004 at 04:30 PM by audi0slave »

Offline av_phile1

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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #112 on: Sep 20, 2004 at 04:36 PM »

on the THD topic, (para di tayo OT), i think only NAD and Rotel are truthful when in comes to their THD claims or most of their specs, for that matter.... all the rest... hopia, mani, pop corn at siopao na lang yan....  ;D ;D ;D


My thoughts as well.  But rather than say truthful, I'd say conservative.  By being conservative in their measurement methodology, their claims are more realistic and judiciouly descriptive of the product they sell, without making the consumer expect more than what the product can deliver.  Unlike others. 

Offline aHobbit

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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #113 on: Sep 20, 2004 at 04:57 PM »


sir, i'm just echoing a famous quote from one of our more prominent PDVD member here... i myself would like to dispute that, that's why i'm going out of my way just to hear different brands, makes and production models of CDPs.  ;D

on the THD topic, (para di tayo OT), i think only NAD and Rotel are truthful when in comes to their THD claims or most of their specs, for that matter.... all the rest... hopia, mani, pop corn at siopao na lang yan....  ;D ;D ;D

gulaman na lang tayo, mas maganda usapan....

I would not even touch who's who in telling truth or lies - they are consumer products under compliance to the product standards law.

anyway, NAD and Rotel could be the exotic food and the rest mani pop corn etc - they could have 0% THD - they may have the best THD in the world. So it is just THD to their load resistors. If they are so good performer in the real world - then perhaps majority of serious audiophiles own and brag about them. Can you usher me in a forum of serious crazy audiophiles that use these brands and say they have high-end sound?

THD=performance is true - at least in theory. Want to enjoy imagined music?
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Offline audi0slave

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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #114 on: Sep 20, 2004 at 05:09 PM »

Can you usher me in a forum of serious crazy audiophiles that use these brands and say they have high-end sound?

THD=performance is true - at least in theory. Want to enjoy imagined music?

"How to Become An Audiophile?" perhaps, this is a better topic for discussion here... you might want to start it coz I don't exactly know what an "audiophile" means and perhaps if you could define it with authority, I might have an idea on where to lead you...  ;D
« Last Edit: Sep 20, 2004 at 05:11 PM by audi0slave »

Offline RU9

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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #115 on: Sep 20, 2004 at 05:15 PM »
Quote


 Except that a few items in the market would like to advertise and shout 100 watts per channel to attract consumers.  When it was measured at an unlistenable 1% THD.  Just a question of conservative or over-hyped power rating on specs.  The choice in entirely on the consumer. 


Sorry, you are trying to put  an issue over published specs.  Actually it all boils down to this:

Anytime you see a power rating that says “x watts @ 1 kHz,” look out. That rating tells you very little about the amp's ability to really deliver the low frequency goods. Yes, these “1 kHz” ratings may be legitimate in that they adhere to the DIN standard popular in Europe, but the fact remains that the DIN (“Deutsche Industrie Normen” or German Industrial Standard) is far less demanding than our FTC-originated spec.


http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/Pioneer/Files/14022.pdf

Offline Philander

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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #116 on: Sep 20, 2004 at 05:18 PM »


"How to Become An Audiophile?" perhaps, this is a better topic for discussion here... you might want to start it coz I don't exactly know what an "audiophile" means and perhaps if you could define it with authority, I might have an idea on where to lead you...  ;D

One must be serious and crazy....  ::)
« Last Edit: Sep 20, 2004 at 05:24 PM by Philander »

Offline av_phile1

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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #117 on: Sep 20, 2004 at 05:22 PM »


"How to Become An Audiophile?" perhaps, this is a better topic for discussion here... you might want to start it coz I don't exactly know what an "audiophile" means and perhaps if you could define it with authority, I might have an idea on where to lead you...  ;D

A very civil, if not sarcastic way of putting it.  I've not really responded to his posts as I find it too demeaning and a waste of time to even consider.  I really don't mind him attacking me at every turn, as if he had the monopoly of what is right in this hobby.  Like a mad dog barking at the wrong tree. 

Offline av_phile1

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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #118 on: Sep 20, 2004 at 05:27 PM »


Sorry, you are trying to put  an issue over published specs.  Actually it all boils down to this:

Anytime you see a power rating that says “x watts @ 1 kHz,” look out. That rating tells you very little about the amp's ability to really deliver the low frequency goods. Yes, these “1 kHz” ratings may be legitimate in that they adhere to the DIN standard popular in Europe, but the fact remains that the DIN (“Deutsche Industrie Normen” or German Industrial Standard) is far less demanding than our FTC-originated spec.


http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/Pioneer/Files/14022.pdf

The issue is entirely about published specs.  I have no quarrel with your observation about those power ratings made at 1Khz.  They're another way of extracting power numbers that are higher than would be obtained under conservative conditions, like full bandwidth and all channels driven.  Measuring the power at higher THD levels also yield higher power numbers.  This crass commercialism do look like just a numbers game.  The higher they are, the more unwary customers to capture.  But they all fly in the face of judicious rating for a more level-playing field of competing products for the benefit of consumers. 

Offline akyatbundok

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Re: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers
« Reply #119 on: Sep 20, 2004 at 05:30 PM »
maybe its just a question of following their country's respective regulations, the requirements for disclosure are different between japan's EIAJ and the US FTC.... japanese manufacturers are only required to disclose max power ratings at 1khz while american manufacturers have to follow more stringent rules?