Author Topic: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players  (Read 20356 times)

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Offline nels76

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #60 on: Dec 01, 2004 at 10:41 PM »
Ayon at na-convince din si Mr. AudioSlave. ;D

It was really impossible a mid end dedicated CDp beats SACD output.

Mr. AudioSlave,

try to find the "Introduction to SACD" album. magaganda laman.
My favorite - Spanish Harlem is included in this album.

The Mysterious Gamma Ray Burst

Offline Narayan

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #61 on: Dec 02, 2004 at 10:29 AM »

try to find the "Introduction to SACD" album. magaganda laman.
My favorite - Spanish Harlem is included in this album.


nels,

where did you get your copy and how much...thanks
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Offline av_phile1

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #62 on: Dec 02, 2004 at 03:52 PM »
Saw that SACD at Montage and Music One a few months back.  If I recall right, that Spanish Harlem track is by Rebecca Pidgeon, among the many Chesky SACDs that include Ana Caram.  I think they're around P1,075 or P1250 each. 

Offline Narayan

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #63 on: Dec 02, 2004 at 06:18 PM »
thanks av_phile...will check it out ;)
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Offline JT

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #64 on: Dec 02, 2004 at 06:53 PM »
try to find the "Introduction to SACD" album. magaganda laman.
My favorite - Spanish Harlem is included in this album.


Hmm, ganda nga ayon sa review.  Makahanap nga dito.

http://www.audiorevolution.com/music/revs/introtosacd.shtml

 


Offline jmigs

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #65 on: Dec 07, 2004 at 09:42 AM »
Are you guys saying that it is not recommended to get a universal player if your into SACD titles? Anyways what's your recommended unviersal dvda/sacd palyer?

Offline JT

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #66 on: Dec 07, 2004 at 10:01 AM »
Are you guys saying that it is not recommended to get a universal player if your into SACD titles? Anyways what's your recommended unviersal dvda/sacd palyer?

I say, universal players are not recommended if you are a purist.


Offline av_phile1

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #67 on: Dec 07, 2004 at 12:36 PM »
Are you guys saying that it is not recommended to get a universal player if your into SACD titles? Anyways what's your recommended unviersal dvda/sacd palyer?

Nope, a player dedicated to SACD is better than most universal players.  Unless the universal has discrete circutry for SACD and other formats.  A bass management and channel delay compensation in the digital domain for SACD is preferred.  This is often available only in flagship universals costing above 50T. 

What's my recommended universal? I think I just indicated above the minimum price points.   ;D
« Last Edit: Dec 09, 2004 at 10:19 AM by av_phile1 »

Offline Bogsle

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #68 on: Dec 08, 2004 at 09:32 PM »
Question lang po.

I've learned that proprietary ng Sony ang SACD technology (please correct me if wrong).

Does this mean mas better ang SACD products or implementation ng Sony than, let say, yung bago ng Denon 3810 or 2910, yung Philips SACD1000, even Onkyo DV-SP1000?

What would be the difference of Sony's SACD, is it the chips ba?

I need more education on this. Thank you.


Offline av_phile1

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #69 on: Dec 09, 2004 at 10:12 AM »
While DSD is a patented Sony technology and the SACD is the format jointly developed by Sony and Philips, they have licensed the technology to other brands like Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo, Pioneer, etc.  So even the chip used is often shared and every brand is free to put in enhancements of its own to differentiate its products.  Some brands don't use the DSD chips and elect to convert the DSD bitstreams to LPCM prior to the DAC to lower the cost.  That is why you can see some ads of some brands banner "genuine or true SACD decoding," to differentiate their products from those that do PCM conversion.

DVD-A is a whole lot simpler as it is just a more dense implementation of PCM technology.  OTH, the circuitry for DSD decoding is admitedly quite complex as the algorythms to process the huge stream of data can be very elaborate.  Forget about the 1-bit word-length, it's the 2.83 MEGA hertz sampling rate that is too much for most  DACs.   Let alone using DSPs to process such enourmous data for bass management and channel delay compensations that are required for proper SACD playback.  Now the landscape is changing, thanks to newer faster chips. But even those expensive Denon universals convert to PCM when bass management is engaged.  And their proprietary D-link digital interface doesn't even pass digital SACD datastreams, though I read that's also being addressed.   I am not even sure if SOny universals have the proper bass management for SACD without resorting to PCM,  maybe their flagships. 

It isn't a rule that SONY alone makes good SACD players,  their entry SACD and mid-level models are often as limited in bass management and channel delay features as other models of the same price range.  I won't even say that going SONY is the safest route to SACD, though there was some justification to that in the past. 

Perhaps some new more affordable universals with proper SACD bass management and other features will come out next year. 
« Last Edit: Dec 09, 2004 at 10:26 AM by av_phile1 »

Offline Bogsle

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #70 on: Dec 10, 2004 at 10:51 PM »
Thanks for the education.

Offline Philander

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #71 on: Mar 06, 2005 at 10:14 AM »
Universal DVD players price and availability update.


Marantz 6500 - Php 31K (5% disc) available at 5th Ave.

Onkyo DVSP 502 - 18.9K available at Sound Dimension, it supports DivX (please chek if DSD is being converted to LPCM)

Pioneer DVS 733A - 22K no box available at Sound Dimension

Offline Philander

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #72 on: Mar 07, 2005 at 03:00 PM »
Any reviews if the Onkyo DVSP 502 decodes DSD correctly?



To add Sony NSP700 (SACD player) is on sale for 14,000 at Abenson Galleria.
« Last Edit: Mar 07, 2005 at 03:48 PM by Philander »

Offline av_phile1

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #73 on: Mar 07, 2005 at 03:38 PM »
That's DVD-NS700 right?  Hope it's still there this weekend. 

Offline Philander

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #74 on: Mar 07, 2005 at 03:47 PM »
That's DVD-NS700 right?  Hope it's still there this weekend. 

Ooops av_phile1,

my bad, i think its Php 14,000.00, 24K previouly, naoverlooked ko lang yung notes sa cellphone ko.. sorry.

I'll correct my post.
« Last Edit: Mar 07, 2005 at 03:49 PM by Philander »

Offline av_phile1

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #75 on: Mar 08, 2005 at 10:17 AM »
bummer  :(  kala ko jackpot na.   Would have gone there this afternoon.  Thanks Philander. 

Offline krets pulpol

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #76 on: Mar 08, 2005 at 10:35 AM »
Any reviews if the Onkyo DVSP 502 decodes DSD correctly?

phil, what do you mean by this?
what?! are you talkin' to me!!!

Offline Philander

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #77 on: Mar 08, 2005 at 10:57 AM »
phil, what do you mean by this?

Some Universal player or SACD player converts raw DSD signal/format (Direct Stream Digital) to LPCM. Meaning, you are not hearing the actual DSD signal.

High-end SACD player does not need reprocessing and has DSD chip onboard to decode native DSD format. Some cheap SACD players on the other hand passes through the DSD signal to LCPM DAC and reporcess it in order to produce sound


AV_phile help me here.

Offline krets pulpol

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #78 on: Mar 08, 2005 at 11:35 AM »
uhm ok, at first i was reading all the info about the dv-sp502 and couldn't find anything.  but page 49 of the manual indicates that dvd-audio and sacd formats are not converted to lpcm or pcm at all.  only the dts/dolby cds are downmixed or converted.  i hope my understanding is correct about this model.  you can ask anyone more knowledgeable about this which i found frustrating because i've been waiting for months if the 502 still has burr-brown dac chips like the 501.
what?! are you talkin' to me!!!

Offline Philander

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #79 on: Mar 08, 2005 at 11:46 AM »
... at first i was reading all the info about the dv-sp502 and couldn't find anything.  but page 49 of the manual indicates that dvd-audio and sacd formats are not converted to lpcm or pcm at all.  only the dts/dolby cds are downmixed or converted. 

I think the info in the manual is not correct.

DVD-Audio format is LPCM (in high resolution: 2ch 192/24, 2ch/5ch 96/24). Therefore, it does not need for conversion.

With SACD, yes it can be converted to LPCM first.
« Last Edit: Mar 08, 2005 at 12:22 PM by Philander »

Offline av_phile1

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #80 on: Mar 08, 2005 at 02:54 PM »
This issue of converting SACD's DSD bitstreams to LPCM can be tricky as not all players will publish their processing path for all to see.   Many are revealed by professional reviewers who go through the trouble of validating the claims of manufacturers directly.  There are some brands who claim "genuine" SACD decoding in their brochures so I would be more comfortable with such brands of universal players.  Denon uses a mix.  They convert to LPCM when engaging the player's bass management.   Another cost cutting effort.  Otherwise, it's straight DSD all the way.  I am not so sure about Onkyo.  If the manual says it doesn't, then I'd rest on such a claim.  Though I hope they didn't make the mistake of saying DVD-Audio is not converted to PCM.  Because as Philander pointed out, DVD-A  IS  PCM (at higher sampling rates). 

Offline levi

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #81 on: Mar 10, 2005 at 02:33 AM »
If I want a two channel audio how will I connect these players?

Offline krets pulpol

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #82 on: Mar 10, 2005 at 10:41 AM »
i think left and right lang na anologue yung connections from the dvd player and check the set-up for stereo only audio for sacd playback.  onkyo 502 has an option to play the stereo portion of the sacd disc in default settings instead of the 5.1.
what?! are you talkin' to me!!!

Offline av_phile1

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #83 on: Mar 10, 2005 at 02:12 PM »
If I recall right, the first generation SACD players only had stereo analog out for audio.

And many early SACD discs only have high resolution DSD tracks in stereo.  Many still do.  THose Patricia Barber SACDs were remized from PCM masters to DSD only in stereo.  If not mistaken, SACD was initially targeting the high end stereo buffs as a replacement for stereo CDs.   But because of the medium's huge storage size, it went multichannel in competition with DVD-Audio. 

These days, the newer SACDs carry both stereo and Multi-channel tracks in high resolution.  So you can have a choice.  Users often have a 5.1 multichannel set-up.  If they choose stereo, which they sometimes do, they simply disengage the other channels and select 2-channel format on the player menu. 

BTW, the  high resolution tracks of the SACD can only pass via the analog 5.1 output of the player.  But recently, there's a proprietary digital D-link between Denon sets or I-link between Pioneer sets that enable digital high resolution data to pass through.  Brands like Meridian, Yamaha, Onkyo, etc are increasingly using these digital connections from one or the other.  These links are said to be variants of the firewire standard that are meant to carry both multichannel audio and video signals (replacing DVI) in digital form in one cable. 

Offline levi

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #84 on: Mar 10, 2005 at 09:36 PM »
Im after the high resolution so how do I connect the player for a two channel audio only setup? Do I have to adjust anything under the DVD setup? How about the menu of an SACD, is it the same as the DVD where you can choose what audio you like? What if I dont have a monitor? If I connect it to my HT receiver, I need to connect the 5.1 for the high res and a digital connection for the others? Last question, how different is the DSD to LPCM conversion? Does that mean I cant listen to the high resolution version or is it just some minor degrading of high res audio? How will you know if it is the High res or just a converted signal?

Offline Philander

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #85 on: Mar 11, 2005 at 07:53 AM »
Im after the high resolution so how do I connect the player for a two channel audio only setup? Do I have to adjust anything under the DVD setup? How about the menu of an SACD, is it the same as the DVD where you can choose what audio you like? What if I dont have a monitor? If I connect it to my HT receiver, I need to connect the 5.1 for the high res and a digital connection for the others? Last question, how different is the DSD to LPCM conversion? Does that mean I cant listen to the high resolution version or is it just some minor degrading of high res audio? How will you know if it is the High res or just a converted signal?

There is an option in the SACD player where you can choose which layer to play: Multi-channel Layer, Stereo layer, or CD layer. In most SACD player especially multi-channel, you need a monitor to configure the menu. However there are 2ch SACD player which will automatically play the stereo SACD layer since it cannot play the multichanel. If the SACD is not hybrid and single layer meaning (SACD stereo only), even if you have selected multi-channel in the player, the player will automatically play the stereo SACD since it does not have multichannel layer.

If you have receiver, you can connect by 5.1 analog in or just plain stereo input (if you dont wanr multichannel). SACD does not produce sound through optical and coaxial interface. You may of course have digital connection for DVD-A, DVD-V, VCD, SVCD, etc.


DSD to LPCM conversion is proprietary of the brand of the SACD player, they may have their own way or architecture in converting DSD to PCM.
This is player dependent, if you have player that converts DSD to PCM, then you are listening to the version with some degradation due to conversion. If you have SACD player with true native DSD decoding system, then you are listening to the real high resolution audio.

HTH.
« Last Edit: Mar 11, 2005 at 01:19 PM by Philander »

Offline av_phile1

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #86 on: Mar 11, 2005 at 11:17 AM »
Just to add to what Philander said,  many audiophiles attach a small LCD screen beside the preamp or receiver for navigating through the on screen menu of a DVD-A and SACD player in an audio-only room for high resolution playback.  I think those 6" Nextbase LCD screens will do the job.  Am also thinking of getting one, instead of using the large monitor screen that eats more electricity, or according to some unverified claims, smears the stereo soundstage due to the reflective nature of the large sceen on the center. 

Among many serious audiophiles on the net in some discussion forums, DSD to LPCM conversion is a cost-cutting design that thwarts the benefits of DSD playback - total anathema.  The differences in sonic quality is arguably small and may not even be audible when played in less-revealing consumer systems, according to some gurus.  They are essentially converting SACD bitstreams to DVD-Audio.  Hence, the circuit chips are shared and manufacturing cost is down.   The quality is still superb by any standard.  But the finest universal players have separate DVD-A and SACD circuits.     And just the same, the manufacturer is short-changing the consumer when such conversions are made.  The consumer is supposed to get DSD when playing SACD, not LPCM.   







« Last Edit: Mar 11, 2005 at 11:18 AM by av_phile1 »

Offline levi

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #87 on: Mar 11, 2005 at 11:19 PM »
Thanks, for the info. Im getting my Sony SACD this weekend so Im quite curious what to do with it.

Offline Dracula

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #88 on: Mar 17, 2005 at 12:44 AM »
Thanks, for the info. Im getting my Sony SACD this weekend so Im quite curious what to do with it.

Which Sony SACD did you get?  ???Give us some feedback please ;D

Offline levi

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Re: Integrated SACD/CD/DVD Players
« Reply #89 on: Mar 18, 2005 at 10:55 PM »
From jen. Sony 915