Author Topic: Vintage Speaks better than New/Expensive ones  (Read 60589 times)

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Offline Nelson de Leon

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Re: Vintage Speaks better than New/Expensive ones
« Reply #240 on: Oct 12, 2012 at 06:38 PM »
How low and loud can an 8 inch woofer 30 years ago can go ? Now compare that to modern 8 inch woofers of today.


Ganun pa din. May basket, magnet, surround, cone, voice coil pa din. So nothing new na.  O0

Unless ang pag-usapan natin yun blade/rotary type servo motor subwoofer. Ayan. Walang cone yan.

Eminent Technology's TRW-17




http://www.rotarywoofer.com/howitworks_files/trwanimate.gif
« Last Edit: Oct 12, 2012 at 06:44 PM by Nelson de Leon »

Offline sientobente

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Re: Vintage Speaks better than New/Expensive ones
« Reply #241 on: Oct 12, 2012 at 06:47 PM »
Ganun pa din. May basket, magnet, surround, cone, voice coil pa din. So nothing new na.  O0

Unless ang pag-usapan natin yun blade/rotary type servo motor subwoofer. Ayan. Walang cone yan.

master, yung electromagnetic woofer design ng focal, hindi ba modern advancement yun? anyway, kapag 8-inch woofer ang pinaguusapan, i always remember this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoxfFsid3qs
8-inch sundown sub does 150.2db O0
« Last Edit: Oct 12, 2012 at 06:47 PM by sientobente »

Offline qguy

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Re: Vintage Speaks better than New/Expensive ones
« Reply #242 on: Oct 12, 2012 at 06:51 PM »
If I am not mistaken, the earlier speaker  were using electromagnets like what focal is using in some of their current models, basically old school yung  walang magnet  :D

master, yung electromagnetic woofer design ng focal, hindi ba modern advancement yun? anyway, kapag 8-inch woofer ang pinaguusapan, i always remember this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoxfFsid3qs
8-inch sundown sub does 150.2db O0

« Last Edit: Oct 12, 2012 at 06:52 PM by qguy »

Offline rascal101

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Re: Vintage Speaks better than New/Expensive ones
« Reply #243 on: Oct 12, 2012 at 06:59 PM »
No question about the accuracy of measurements, my point is, does this really apply in real world??? Or just in computer tralala world...

Let us not forget that many speaker manufacturers are competing with one another. Only the strong survive. Any incremental improvement is an improvement. The summation of these incremental improvements over a period of time becomes a big improvement. No company wants to have its competition having better product specs or measurements (and looks) if it wants to survive.
« Last Edit: Oct 12, 2012 at 07:09 PM by rascal101 »

Offline bass_nut

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Re: Vintage Speaks better than New/Expensive ones
« Reply #244 on: Oct 12, 2012 at 07:21 PM »
<snp>
You're welcome, Doc. As with the field of medicine, technology is a great enabler.

right you are, brother Stagea !!  ;)
off topic: while x-ray was one of the most used diagnostic imaging route decades ago we now have high res high speed ultrasound, CT-scan and MRIs. i can cite more of the recent advancement but would limit myself to said imaging machines only. cheers !!  :D

I think people are just saying that with the advent of measuring equipment and simulation tools, modern speakers have advantage over vintage speakers in the sense that signal reproduction is more accurate. Is this a major leap? Depends on how you look at it.

brother Mel, the title of this thread contains a generalized word ["better"], which is NOT specific nor adequately descriptive. comparative differences, subtle or nigh and day ?


on topic: subtle SQ difference may be important to some and not to others. at my end anything that improves SQ is welcome as long as my wallet can afford.. hehehe
 
Let us not forget that many speaker manufacturers are competing with one another. Only the strong survive. Any incremental improvement is an improvement. The summation of these incremental improvements over a period of time becomes a big improvement. No company wants to have its competition having better product specs or measurements (and looks) if it wants to survive.

+ 1 !!

OMG Kahit ganito na lang Doc, Pwede na sa akin.



brother June, sleepless nights tayo when a pair of those speakers land on your abode.. more coffee.. more audio bliss !! :D ;D

===================

IF there will be side by side comparo, set parameters would lessen confusion and vague results. say a live performance piano piece and then recorded in high-res quality. utilizing the actual live performance as reference, said recorded piano piece played back through a known (highly regarded) digital playback system. which one would each listener prefer ? one that is so accurate as near live performance  quality or an SQ which has slight recess/dips on some of the peaks ?
« Last Edit: Oct 12, 2012 at 08:33 PM by bass_nut »

Offline bb3

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Re: Vintage Speaks better than New/Expensive ones
« Reply #245 on: Oct 12, 2012 at 11:00 PM »
To those who loved those musical sounding vintage speakers, dont worry we still have modern designers that still incorporate those colorations into their current design. We do have all the tools to make "accurate" sounding speakers, but if all the speakers were accurate, they would all sound the same and life would be boring, We add some coloration into the picture, some likes it flat, some likes it piercing and some (a lot ???) likes it warm and fuzzy... enjoy

I agree. Most makers build to address a market, and the market is filled with people of varied preference.

They also understand the colorations that cause certain perceptions more than ever, so they can easily incorporate the intended sound to a design. What's good is that even vintage-flavored modern speakers often exhibit lower distortion levels, as they can measure and address imperfections that do not contribute to the intended goal.

I'd also like to make it clear that I'm not saying that new speakers are always better than old ones. I'm saying that the science in developing and building speakers has moved forward, and this allows for better speaker designs. Whether a certain speaker is better or not, I leave that upto each individual. I just completely disagree with the thread title.

So are we now saying that these colorations are intentionally added by the designers?
If that’s the case, then the manufacturers are misleading us into believing that their preferred/perceived sound is the “correct” one.

The measuring tools available now to modern technology have pushed the envelope further in that pursuit of fidelity – accuracy to the source.
I agree.
But if designers, after achieving that accuracy, will then infuse additional colorations (for whatever reason), wouldn’t that outcome result back to a colored sound? – a supposedly flaw in vintage speakers they were trying to eliminate in the first place.

Sorry, it may just be me, but I can’t seem to get the logic here.
« Last Edit: Oct 12, 2012 at 11:22 PM by bb3 »

Offline Stagea

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Re: Vintage Speaks better than New/Expensive ones
« Reply #246 on: Oct 12, 2012 at 11:36 PM »
So are we now saying that these colorations are intentionally added by the designers?
If that’s the case, then the manufacturers are misleading us into believing that their preferred/perceived sound is the “correct” one.

The measuring tools available now to modern technology have pushed the envelope further in that pursuit of fidelity – accuracy to the source.
I agree.
But if designers, after achieving that accuracy, will then infuse additional colorations (for whatever reason), wouldn’t that outcome result back to a colored sound? – a characteristic in vintage speakers they were trying to improve in the first place.

Sorry, it may just be me, but I can’t seem to get the logic here.

You are absolutely correct. There are makers that go after a certain "sound" so as not to abandon its loyal customer base.  Many people buy certain brands because they like how they sound. Makers with a strong brand following tend to incorporate improvements without changing the character too much with every model change, unless they feel the need to do so. We see bold moves every now and then, but big makers seem to choose to keep the changes incremental in the majority of cases.

Design and engineering for consumer electronics incorporate a lot of inputs from the marketing team, from the desired cost envelope, to how the product should look like, and even to how it should sound/perform. Some companies put more focus on being correct, while others put more focus on addressing market demand. A lot of buyers buy because they like a certain sound, they're used to a certain sound, and/or they think that a certain sound is the correct sound. Marketing also tends to stratify customers, recommending a different character for different model lines to appeal to the desires of different target segments.

Marketing inputs skew design results in many cases, but it's often a necessary evil for consumer products to sell. Cars having a certain "look" and "feel" for example may detriment outright performance, but car makers still go after this because it makes the product desirable to customers. It's a balancing act as technical advancements are just as sellable, but it makes economic sense to not alienate a potentially big group of customers who expect a certain thing about a product.
« Last Edit: Oct 12, 2012 at 11:41 PM by Stagea »

Offline bb3

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Re: Vintage Speaks better than New/Expensive ones
« Reply #247 on: Oct 13, 2012 at 01:12 AM »

You are absolutely correct. There are makers that go after a certain "sound" so as not to abandon its loyal customer base.  Many people buy certain brands because they like how they sound. Makers with a strong brand following tend to incorporate improvements without changing the character too much with every model change, unless they feel the need to do so. We see bold moves every now and then, but big makers seem to choose to keep the changes incremental in the majority of cases.

Design and engineering for consumer electronics incorporate a lot of inputs from the marketing team, from the desired cost envelope, to how the product should look like, and even to how it should sound/perform. Some companies put more focus on being correct, while others put more focus on addressing market demand. A lot of buyers buy because they like a certain sound, they're used to a certain sound, and/or they think that a certain sound is the correct sound. Marketing also tends to stratify customers, recommending a different character for different model lines to appeal to the desires of different target segments.

Marketing inputs skew design results in many cases, but it's often a necessary evil for consumer products to sell. Cars having a certain "look" and "feel" for example may detriment outright performance, but car makers still go after this because it makes the product desirable to customers. It's a balancing act as technical advancements are just as sellable, but it makes economic sense to not alienate a potentially big group of customers who expect a certain thing about a product.

Thanks stagea. I share your sentiments and find your argument to be  pragmatic in this discussion.
Likewise, I do not agree with the title of thread.

But if you could bear with me just a bit more.
So far, both of us are in agreement that present technology in speaker design have helped advance the pursuit of fidelity. Again, accuracy to the source.
We also agree that vintage speakers have that colored (musical, as some would put it) characteristic at the expense of accuracy. An attribute that was hard to achieve prior to modern measuring tools.
But while vintage speakers were striving for accuracy, modern speaker designs, whose precision is without question, are “looking back” to mimic some of the colorations of vintage products for reasons of marketability.
One steps forward while the other backward.
Is there a halfway point? I don’t know.

If there is such a thing as this half way point, could this disprove the title of the thread that vintage speakers are better than newer/expensive ones?
But likewise disprove that the newer ones are none the better than their older brothers.
Where is the direction of High Fidelity then?




"A lot of systems don't sound like music.
They sound like hi-fi.
When I go to Carnegie Hall, I sometimes close my eyes and try to pretend I'm listening to a hi-fi system, so I can see what I'm missing.
Some of the great designers continued to issue great gear even as their hearing declined with age, because they were designing to what they heard in the concert hall.
Hence the importance of a life reference, the experience of acoustic music performed in an excellent acoustic.”

Harry Pearson
(Rocky Mountain Audio Fest 2009)


Offline Stagea

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Re: Vintage Speaks better than New/Expensive ones
« Reply #248 on: Oct 13, 2012 at 04:27 AM »
We also agree that vintage speakers have that colored (musical, as some would put it) characteristic at the expense of accuracy. An attribute that was hard to achieve prior to modern measuring tools.
But while vintage speakers were striving for accuracy, modern speaker designs, whose precision is without question, are “looking back” to mimic some of the colorations of vintage products for reasons of marketability.
One steps forward while the other backward.
Is there a halfway point? I don’t know.
I don't think of it as stepping backward in most cases, but the steps forward are made with smaller strides to ensure that all the eggs remain in the basket. Little children and the elderly are also a part of the family -- when walking together, the pace of progress is sometimes dictated by the need to keep everyone onboard. Most people have some resistance to change in one form or another, and marketers make sure that they are attuned to that. 

If there is such a thing as this half way point, could this disprove the title of the thread that vintage speakers are better than newer/expensive ones?
But likewise disprove that the newer ones are none the better than their older brothers.
Where is the direction of High Fidelity then?
I truly believe that analog electromechanical transducer technology is still moving forward, and would continue to do so in coming years. Even if some companies are now developing digital audio reproduction using either multilayered coil motors or dedicated drivers per significant bit, I think they are still a long way from getting that technology to the mainstream consumer (the former being much closer to production). And even if they do get the technology out, a big chunk of the technology used in these designs are derived from the current understanding of analog tech.

Technology is trickling down. I could see distortion numbers dwindling in newer speakers, especially amongst entry level models (numbers that were only possible with high-end speakers years ago). Bandwidth and linearity continue to improve in the high end. Many new speakers incorporate more and more adaptations to integrate better with typical room acoustics, as the understanding of this is also progressing.

A modern Rolls-Royce and a modern Ferrari both undeniably perform better than their vintage siblings. They just took different routes of development, and retained certain qualities that endear them to their customer base.

Offline qguy

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Re: Vintage Speaks better than New/Expensive ones
« Reply #249 on: Oct 13, 2012 at 06:00 AM »
So are we now saying that these colorations are intentionally added by the designers?

Yes, One VERY popular speakers that had coloured sound was the LS3/5a, it had a boost in the 50-60 hz range to make it sound fuller. This bass boost was named the "BBC hump". A lot of smaller speakers used this concept to make the bass response sound "fuller"

When we compared the B&W 805d and the CM1, the CM1 had "better" bass response. Both of these speakers would have different markets, The target market for the 805d would ideally be users who prefer the accurate sound, whereas the CM1 would cater to the "mass" market crowd.  Its a market driven industry, different markets will require different designs.


« Last Edit: Oct 13, 2012 at 07:31 AM by qguy »

Offline ATJr.

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Re: Vintage Speaks better than New/Expensive ones
« Reply #250 on: Oct 13, 2012 at 07:21 AM »
If I am not mistaken, the earlier speaker  were using electromagnets like what focal is using in some of their current models, basically old school yung  walang magnet  :D


true, the electromagnetic speakers used field coils to seve as electromagnets and filtering chokes, that is hitting 2 birds with one stone....;D
That's OK, you can like or dislike anything you choose. That's the wonderful thing about the freedom

Offline qguy

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Re: Vintage Speaks better than New/Expensive ones
« Reply #251 on: Oct 13, 2012 at 07:42 AM »
You mean aside from serving as the magnets it also served as a filter removing the need for a passive crossover for the woofer ?


true, the electromagnetic speakers used field coils to seve as electromagnets and filtering chokes, that is hitting 2 birds with one stone....;D

Offline Dilbert7

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Re: Vintage Speaks better than New/Expensive ones
« Reply #252 on: Oct 13, 2012 at 10:49 AM »

Technology is trickling down. I could see distortion numbers dwindling in newer speakers, especially amongst entry level models (numbers that were only possible with high-end speakers years ago). Bandwidth and linearity continue to improve in the high end. Many new speakers incorporate more and more adaptations to integrate better with typical room acoustics, as the understanding of this is also progressing.


You are right if you are talking about high end (before) to high end (now), entry before and entry now.

But what I want to point out here is this (noting the title: vintage [regarless of price points?] IS BETTER than new [or expensive ones - good and crap] = = = the high end of yester years can be had cheaply nowadays - versus high end of today  8).

So to all of you out there - why buy expensive 'high end' now when vintage quality [high end] speakers abound in our place in same prices as new entry "no review - no track record" speakers? much more with expensive "market-hyped high-end" speakers?

Also speaking of high end - I hope you are not refering to price also - because price is not a determinant of good sonic characteristics.
« Last Edit: Oct 13, 2012 at 10:54 AM by Dilbert7 »

Offline Dilbert7

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Re: Vintage Speaks better than New/Expensive ones
« Reply #253 on: Oct 13, 2012 at 11:04 AM »

If there is such a thing as this half way point, could this disprove the title of the thread that vintage speakers are better than newer / expensive ones?

But likewise disprove that the newer ones are none the better than their older brothers.
Where is the direction of High Fidelity then?




Indeed!

This is the problem with the thread - the halfway point.  ;D

You lump all the vintage speakers (both the 'high ends' [that abounds today at cheap prices] and their entry level counterparts that hardly exist) to compare side by side with newer models (price category???). If the price is not a determinant of sonic quality, then at what point are they being compared?

I compare them based on their market value at present! Get same priced speakers - vintage and new ones, then compare (all facets if you want, build, sonic characteristics, technology applied)

Want to get the taste of heil speakers at PHP 1.5k? 47kg each  :o , putek - baka mas mahal pa ang shipping! IMHO, Heil has its own short coming - but my brod loves it!




brother Mel, the title of this thread contains a generalized word ["better"], which is NOT specific nor adequately descriptive. comparative differences, subtle or nigh and day ?



At least I am not the only one trying to point this kind of generalities that leads to nowhere! So I gave my halfway point above - BUY TODAY with your money, one new & one vintage (same price level)!
« Last Edit: Oct 13, 2012 at 11:15 AM by Dilbert7 »

Offline qguy

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Re: Vintage Speaks better than New/Expensive ones
« Reply #254 on: Oct 13, 2012 at 11:25 AM »
True,  there are Vintage speakers that can go low and loud and with SQ that can rival that of modern speakers, but at what cost...that cost is SIZE.  TECHNOLOGY allows us to make things smaller and smaller. Take for example the Infinity IRS with multiple 12 inch woofers in its own enclosure, I am pretty sure, that the same SPL and quality can be achieved today with less drivers and smaller enclosures.

LARGE Vintage Cellphones can make phone call, the same way your tiny Nokia does. The basic Cell phone feature is the same, Can we say that Cell phone Technology did not move forward, because the older phones can do what the modern phones does ?


Offline qguy

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Re: Vintage Speaks better than New/Expensive ones
« Reply #255 on: Oct 13, 2012 at 11:29 AM »
There is no argument with prices of old gears vs new gears of the same quality. Vintage gear will "always" be cheaper, given the fact that it is used, no longer supported by the manufacturer and parts may be obsolete and no longer available.

* Some highly collectible Vintage gears are still expensive....Value really depends on the availability and market demand

Offline Dilbert7

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Re: Vintage Speaks better than New/Expensive ones
« Reply #256 on: Oct 13, 2012 at 11:32 AM »
True,  there are Vintage speakers that can go low and loud and with SQ that can rival that of modern speakers, but at what cost...that cost is SIZE.  TECHNOLOGY allows us to make things smaller and smaller. Take for example the Infinity IRS with multiple 12 inch woofers in its own enclosure, I am pretty sure, that the same SPL and quality can be achieved today with less drivers and smaller enclosures.

LARGE Vintage Cellphones can make phone call, the same way your tiny Nokia does. The basic Cell phone feature is the same, Can we say that Cell phone Technology did not move forward, because the older phones can do what the modern phones does ?



Again, you diverted the comparison to size - is this your halfway point sir?
If this is your case, I accept your point.
But I have a sepaker I bought P800 - Teac S300 - this is small and better than any that you can buy on the same (MY halfway point) PRICE! But will figure out in YOUR (halfway point) size issue.

As I have said, my halfway point is the price.


The CELLPHONE technology made improvement in transmission - now 3G going 4G. However, including camera, organizer, etc etc into the cellphone case is just an integration - not to improve celphone but to improve your gear far from being a cellphone - and all these integration are old tech! It is already way way advanced in other gears that you can get (say PC). In other words - vanilla features!
« Last Edit: Oct 13, 2012 at 11:37 AM by Dilbert7 »

Offline qguy

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Re: Vintage Speaks better than New/Expensive ones
« Reply #257 on: Oct 13, 2012 at 11:55 AM »
Buying vintage gears is like a treasure hunt, bargains can be had if you know where to look.

What if someone buys a vintage system costing 150,000 system with Cerwin Vega speakers, Sony power amp and Pioneer AVR and EQ. This same person would be pissed for buying crappy Vintage gear for 150,000. He would say I should have gotten NEW modern speakers and amplifiers.. MAS MURA PA :) He would say KALOKOHAN YAN mga vintage gears na yan, napamahal pa ako  >:D

My point is.. comparing vintage vs modern  with regard to price is not something we can measure unlike SIZE and Quality as prices for vintage gears is dictated by the seller and the buyer

But I have a sepaker I bought P800 - Teac S300 - this is small and better than any that you can buy on the same (MY halfway point) PRICE! But will figure out in YOUR (halfway point) size issue.

« Last Edit: Oct 13, 2012 at 11:57 AM by qguy »

Offline qguy

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Re: Vintage Speaks better than New/Expensive ones
« Reply #258 on: Oct 13, 2012 at 11:58 AM »
btw.. The gears I mentioned above are not crappy,  it becomes crappy when overpriced.  I love Cerwin Vega, Sony and Pioneer !!! I still dream of having a CV D9

Offline Nelson de Leon

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Re: Vintage Speaks better than New/Expensive ones
« Reply #259 on: Oct 13, 2012 at 12:15 PM »

My point is.. comparing vintage vs modern  with regard to price is not something we can measure unlike SIZE and Quality as prices for vintage gears is dictated by the seller and the buyer


Agree. It cannot be quantified kasi naguguluhan na ako kung price, technology, materials, or data from test ang reference ng TS.

Offline bb3

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Re: Vintage Speaks better than New/Expensive ones
« Reply #260 on: Oct 13, 2012 at 01:32 PM »
Hindi na muna ako makikisawsaw dito sa Good. Better, Best – baka lalong gumulo pa usapan.
I have learned quite bit though through this thread.
Most especially, I have learned that after 40 years in this hobby, there are still a lot of twists and turns and new realizations to discover.
I still have some questions but will reserve it for later. Have some weekend errands to do now.




A modern Rolls-Royce and a modern Ferrari both undeniably perform better than their vintage siblings. They just took different routes of development, and retained certain qualities that endear them to their customer base.
This though put a smile on my face and reminded me of the link below.

http://bb3blog.wordpress.com/2012/07/25/why-i-still-prefer-my-vinyls-over-digitized-music/

Offline ATJr.

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Re: Vintage Speaks better than New/Expensive ones
« Reply #261 on: Oct 13, 2012 at 07:25 PM »
You mean aside from serving as the magnets it also served as a filter removing the need for a passive crossover for the woofer ?



serves to smooth out the power supply as well...
That's OK, you can like or dislike anything you choose. That's the wonderful thing about the freedom

Offline bb3

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Re: Vintage Speaks better than New/Expensive ones
« Reply #262 on: Oct 14, 2012 at 02:32 AM »
I truly believe that analog electromechanical transducer technology is still moving forward, and would continue to do so in coming years. Even if some companies are now developing digital audio reproduction using either multilayered coil motors or dedicated drivers per significant bit, I think they are still a long way from getting that technology to the mainstream consumer (the former being much closer to production). And even if they do get the technology out, a big chunk of the technology used in these designs are derived from the current understanding of analog tech.

Technology is trickling down. I could see distortion numbers dwindling in newer speakers, especially amongst entry level models (numbers that were only possible with high-end speakers years ago). Bandwidth and linearity continue to improve in the high end. Many new speakers incorporate more and more adaptations to integrate better with typical room acoustics, as the understanding of this is also progressing.


Yes, One VERY popular speakers that had coloured sound was the LS3/5a, it had a boost in the 50-60 hz range to make it sound fuller. This bass boost was named the "BBC hump". A lot of smaller speakers used this concept to make the bass response sound "fuller"

When we compared the B&W 805d and the CM1, the CM1 had "better" bass response. Both of these speakers would have different markets, The target market for the 805d would ideally be users who prefer the accurate sound, whereas the CM1 would cater to the "mass" market crowd.  Its a market driven industry, different markets will require different designs.

I agree and recognize the fact that even as we discuss this now, there are newer tools being developed aside from those that you have mentioned, for this purpose.
But the question I’m asking is -  what is the objective of all these measurements?
It seems that the pursuit of fidelity is not one of them since the end result is still highly dependent on the market and not the “truth” (for lack of a better word).
qguy mentioned the LS/35a*. This is a perfect example. That midbass hump is a coloration that has been present in this speaker for close to 40 years!
But in spite of all the modern measuring tools available, it seems this coloration will remain, simply because the market demands it.
Are we at the mercy of speaker designers/manufacturers who produce present products driven more by marketability rather than the pursuit of what this hobby was originally intended for?

I’d hate to walk up to a Dyn owner and tell him – “pare, alam mo ba na yung C4 mo masmalinis dapat tumunog pero dinagdagan nung manufacturer ng coloration para makabenta lang”

Why do they do this? Is the “correct” sound so unlistenable that they would have a difficult time finding a market for this?

I understand that there may be improvements in other areas.
But if modern manufacturers continue to “taint the truth”, then modern speakers do not impart the sound of what we should hear but rather mere products of what manufacturers want us to hear.

How then could we absolutely conclude that newer is "better" (sorry, but again for lack of a better term) if the product is based on the manufacture's perception of what the market will buy and not what the measuring tools dictate?


*Don't get me wrong. I love the LS/35a.
I had a pair for quite a while and derived my passion for focus and soundstage imaging because of these speakers.



« Last Edit: Oct 14, 2012 at 02:54 AM by bb3 »

Offline Stagea

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Re: Vintage Speaks better than New/Expensive ones
« Reply #263 on: Oct 14, 2012 at 04:38 AM »

I agree and recognize the fact that even as we discuss this now, there are newer tools being developed aside from those that you have mentioned, for this purpose.
But the question I’m asking is -  what is the objective of all these measurements?
It seems that the pursuit of fidelity is not one of them since the end result is still highly dependent on the market and not the “truth” (for lack of a better word).
qguy mentioned the LS/35a*. This is a perfect example. That midbass hump is a coloration that has been present in this speaker for close to 40 years!
But in spite of all the modern measuring tools available, it seems this coloration will remain, simply because the market demands it.
Are we at the mercy of speaker designers/manufacturers who produce present products driven more by marketability rather than the pursuit of what this hobby was originally intended for?

I’d hate to walk up to a Dyn owner and tell him – “pare, alam mo ba na yung C4 mo masmalinis dapat tumunog pero dinagdagan nung manufacturer ng coloration para makabenta lang”

I'm sure that today's sporty and exotic cars could go even faster if they didn't go after a certain look, feel and sound, but makers make them so to make them sellable. They make some compromises to make the product competitive, as performance numbers don't always get the money. Despite this, the modern iterations still perform significantly better than their predecessors.

The "correct" sound has a market, but not a very big one it seems. There had been speakers that measure beautifully in the past years, but very few became sales successes (despite some coming in at relatively affordable price points). Part of the blame may be because most recordings are voiced to sound good in typical systems, plus the fact that most people are not attuned to a neutral sound. The term HiFi has been used and abused for an ever widening variety of systems/gear, many of which aren't of utmost fidelity from a measurement standpoint. I prefer the generic term "music system," and reserve the term HiFi for a small subset of this. HiFi is that subset that still puts emphasis on faithfulness to the source.

Why do they do this? Is the “correct” sound so unlistenable that they would have a difficult time finding a market for this?

I understand that there may be improvements in other areas.
But if modern manufacturers continue to “taint the truth”, then modern speakers do not impart the sound of what we should hear but rather mere products of what manufacturers want us to hear.

Dynamics is normally compressed during recording/mastering, and reproducing it as-is creates a fairly dull representation of the performance. Mainstream and vintage recordings especially suffer when played back in an "accurate" system. Some common applied colorations are meant to "bring life" to these otherwise dull recordings. In such a case, what the listener therefore hears is not truthful to the source, but it seems closer to his/her recollection of a live sound. I don't think a lot are ready to accept that a new system will render his/her music collection unlistenable (especially since he/she is able to enjoy it with other equipment). A lot of the "sounds like hifi" rhetoric comes from this, as in many cases that is probably close to what the recording really sounds like.

Even with an excellent recording though, many would likely choose a colored system because they might find an accurate system too forward-sounding, too-bright, or lacking in scale or authority. Most recordings are close-miked, and they do not sound anywhere close to how the instrument would sound from the normal listening distance in a live performance. These recordings (unlike ambient miked recordings) do not have much room reverberations to "envelop" the listener with sound (unless it's been synthesized during post-processing). They also do not sound "laid back" at all.

Oftentimes, what sells is what the buyer finds pleasant or enjoyable. In the majority of cases, that translates to emphasized bass, some form of cut in the midrange and a slight downward tilt in overall FR. Some makers intentionally allow for some oscillation to add "richness" to the sound (aka introduce resonance and harmonics). This shouldn't surprise us, as vacuum tube audio gear continue to sell despite them trailing solid state components in most measurements. I've never questioned these choices, as it's just like choosing a painting over a photograph... these choices are made due to merits other than fidelity.

How then could we absolutely conclude that newer is "better" (sorry, but again for lack of a better term) if the product is based on the manufacture's perception of what the market will buy and not what the measuring tools dictate?

Despite the varied mix that we have in the present market, I think that on average, music systems available now are of a higher fidelity than what we had two decades ago. Even colored speakers nowadays usually have good decay and transient characteristics.

And since the title says new/expensive, there are many current flagship speakers that deliver outstanding numbers and are much better objectively. If the topic is about what's subjectively better, then that question had been answered many times... it depends on the person.
« Last Edit: Oct 14, 2012 at 08:05 AM by Stagea »

Offline bb3

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Re: Vintage Speaks better than New/Expensive ones
« Reply #264 on: Oct 15, 2012 at 02:28 AM »
I'm sure that today's sporty and exotic cars could go even faster if they didn't go after a certain look, feel and sound, but makers make them so to make them sellable. They make some compromises to make the product competitive, as performance numbers don't always get the money. Despite this, the modern iterations still perform significantly better than their predecessors.

The "correct" sound has a market, but not a very big one it seems. There had been speakers that measure beautifully in the past years, but very few became sales successes (despite some coming in at relatively affordable price points). Part of the blame may be because most recordings are voiced to sound good in typical systems, plus the fact that most people are not attuned to a neutral sound. The term HiFi has been used and abused for an ever widening variety of systems/gear, many of which aren't of utmost fidelity from a measurement standpoint. I prefer the generic term "music system," and reserve the term HiFi for a small subset of this. HiFi is that subset that still puts emphasis on faithfulness to the source.

Dynamics is normally compressed during recording/mastering, and reproducing it as-is creates a fairly dull representation of the performance. Mainstream and vintage recordings especially suffer when played back in an "accurate" system. Some common applied colorations are meant to "bring life" to these otherwise dull recordings. In such a case, what the listener therefore hears is not truthful to the source, but it seems closer to his/her recollection of a live sound. I don't think a lot are ready to accept that a new system will render his/her music collection unlistenable (especially since he/she is able to enjoy it with other equipment). A lot of the "sounds like hifi" rhetoric comes from this, as in many cases that is probably close to what the recording really sounds like.

Even with an excellent recording though, many would likely choose a colored system because they might find an accurate system too forward-sounding, too-bright, or lacking in scale or authority. Most recordings are close-miked, and they do not sound anywhere close to how the instrument would sound from the normal listening distance in a live performance. These recordings (unlike ambient miked recordings) do not have much room reverberations to "envelop" the listener with sound (unless it's been synthesized during post-processing). They also do not sound "laid back" at all.

Oftentimes, what sells is what the buyer finds pleasant or enjoyable. In the majority of cases, that translates to emphasized bass, some form of cut in the midrange and a slight downward tilt in overall FR. Some makers intentionally allow for some oscillation to add "richness" to the sound (aka introduce resonance and harmonics). This shouldn't surprise us, as vacuum tube audio gear continue to sell despite them trailing solid state components in most measurements. I've never questioned these choices, as it's just like choosing a painting over a photograph... these choices are made due to merits other than fidelity.

Despite the varied mix that we have in the present market, I think that on average, music systems available now are of a higher fidelity than what we had two decades ago. Even colored speakers nowadays usually have good decay and transient characteristics.

And since the title says new/expensive, there are many current flagship speakers that deliver outstanding numbers and are much better objectively. If the topic is about what's subjectively better, then that question had been answered many times... it depends on the person.

So far, this is what I gather.
Modern technology is a useful tool in present day speaker design.
This is an industry, similar to cars and cellphones, that is primarily market-driven.
To be able to sell, manufacturers, including the HiFi subset with their entry to mid level products, add certain colorations that would make their speakers enjoyable to listen to.
Most do not endeavor correctness.

On the other end, there are the flagship models.
With the aid of modern technology, designers of these strive for accuracy resulting in excellent measurement numbers and are much better objectively.

But due to the “limitations” (intentional or otherwise) of the recording process, the listening experience is rendered less enjoyable in these accurate systems.

If my record collection was limited to Jazz at the Pawnshop, Cantate Domino, and Amanda McBroom, et al, striving for these flagship models for the purpose of pleasurable listening is still something to dream about.
But since these (audiophile) recordings comprise less than 1% of my collection . . . managinip pa kaya ako?

To be able to experience the pleasure of driving your Ferrari, you would have to drag yourself out of bed early Sunday morning and take her for a spin at the SLEX Skyway. Then head back home.

For a daily driver, a Toyota just fits the bill.