Topic: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?

[Johnmarc0]

Good question, if C is played and C# was resultant can be dissected several ways, but again it goes back to human psychology......

A purist would say...... I only wanna hear C...I dont like ur system

A rationalist person would say.....dammit that is C....Cminor C major and C# are all Cs, so what is the fuss

A clueless person would say....it does not really matter, I dunno what C sounds like anyways

An avoider person would say ...... it is C but not quite

A blamer ignorant bloke would say ..... C was in there damn coloration got in the way

A delusional person would say ..... I don not care about C all I wanna hear is the coloration

A newbie would say .... yup it is C and C# but what can I do, this is the best system I have for now

A dead ender would say ...... As far as I am concerned all Cs I hear is C next level categories of C is esoteric socially snobbish crap.

Either way, as I said when people listen to SS and tubes and then they make a decision for preference. What ever type they fall on to sure got my respect ... bec they made a fair choice.  

On Cheap amps, check this guy arnoldC he built an amp for 10K including tubes, or check corrsty he has really good entry level gear or hypertriode he can custom make one for you on the budget you got. It aint expensive it just our egos (as I ask permission from the gracious moderators for the indulgence) that makes it unreachable. But the path to good tube gear is not that exhobirant.  

JM
 

[Johnmarc0]

Russ,

I always believe people are born good and reasonable but life molds them otherwise, it is our moral obligation to try and help reason prevail else we are par unreasonable.

You see, people hide intention behind opinion and opinion can sometimes be pretty convincing. We should always look at what intent was meant before we consider opinion delivered.

Thus if opinion delivered has inconsistent intentions, then the real intent is to create havoc. Everything else is just thrash talk. And that is the credibility you gain not sense of fairness.

Not much different from a high school kid shaving his head and joining the neo nazis. He will be fighting for patriotism today, racism tomorrow. They all deserve to attend the nuremberg trials.

Then if such intent is the case, then it is a fair fight between good and evil. Be steadfast you have the moral higherground. Reason someday in some f***ed-up way will prevail.

JM

[rtsy]

I always believe people are born good and reasonable but life molds them otherwise, it is our moral obligation to try and help reason prevail else we are par unreasonable.

Pare, bibili muna ako ng scuba gear then I'll re-read your post.  And lalim, pare.  Ano ba ininom ninyo kagabi.

Oh, belated happy birthday.  

Too bad I couldn't join you guys.  I was playing foreman to the repairs being done at my place.  I think cement hardened inside my ear canal.

I took the chance to audition S*k*r* amps and B*s* speakers instead of listening to your 300b & Voigts.  I still didn't like them.  Kidding.  

[H a n $]

No knowledge.....I thought SS and tubes are the same but thanks to website like this and pinoydiophiles and frequent visit to Hyperaudio shop have learn a little..  

Money budget..

Just started with my HT setup... up next stereo setup naman tube amp next target but budget budget muna target pala    

[audio_tyro]

Whoa, in some extreme comparisons, tube and SS are like Day and Night. If you say you like only one over the other, you're missing fifty percent of life!

Thus I like both, as much as I like day and night. I like the lushness, liquidity, warmth of tubes. But no question, I prefer the slam, speed, tunefull and deep (subterranean) bass of most solid states. Remedy? I look for a solid state that also also has the virtues of tubes. For why not enjoy the best of both worlds!

Afterall, a very good tube amp (if ever there was one) will sound equal to a very good solid state amp. Let me show you a bit of simple arithmetic to elucidate that:

Let's say a live recording of say, Norah Jones is 100%. With a plethora of brands/models of both SS and Tube amps around, it will no longer be difficult to find a very good tube amp that can deliver 99.9% performance of that live event. In the same manner, it is not impossible to find a very good SS amp also delivers 99.9% performance to the singing of Norah Jones as you hear it live.

If 99.9% is equal to 99.9%, then a very good tube amp is equal in sonic performance to a very good SS amp. So what's the fuss all about?

Both tubes and SS amps have their inherent disadvantages too. I hope you are well aware of these. Some tubes will sound wooly and too lush, a clear departure from the real thing. Or worse good tubes will sound bad once it reaches their end-of-life (say after 2,000+ hours for power tubes). So if you listen 1,000 hours a day, your tubes will only last for 2 days! hehehe (pano kaya mangyari yon?) Such departure from the live recording will make it far from high fidelity repro, not to mention you have to buy new tubes again (if you can still find that model!). SS amps on the other hand is known to exhibit even ordered harmonics (which is ear fatiguing). But, it's ear fartiguing if you listen loud all the time. For folks like me having some war-freak neighbors, my listening sessions at nights is quite soft... hence not much ear fatigue really! Lucky for tubes they mostly make lots of odd ordered harmonics, which is pleasing to the ears, yet still they are bloody fake, hence low-fi. Now, you're tell me, if I play a tube amp loud even at midnight, my horrible neighbors will not attack me? You tell that to the dead marines in Iraq.

So like I said, despite everything - I like both (SS and tubes). I have a tube sounding SS amp (with all the slam, dynamics, speed and tuneful deep bass as well as the lovely liquidity that many tube amps struggle to achieve!). Next I might get a tubed DAC, if not a tubed output cd player; a living testament to the fact that I like day and night (work like hell in the day, see the sun, enjoy traffic, meet people, audition and buy audio gears, etc. etc), then... f**k the night away! Now if you tell me to give up one over the other, I will just smile at you

[av_phile]

Both tubes and SS amps have their inherent disadvantages too. I hope you are well aware of these. Some tubes will sound wooly and too lush, a clear departure from the real thing. Or worse good tubes will sound bad once it reaches their end-of-life (say after 2,000+ hours for power tubes). So if you listen 1,000 hours a day, your tubes will only last for 2 days! hehehe (pano kaya mangyari yon?) Such departure from the live recording will make it far from high fidelity repro, not to mention you have to buy new tubes again (if you can still find that model!). SS amps on the other hand is known to exhibit even ordered harmonics (which is ear fatiguing). But, it's ear fartiguing if you listen loud all the time. For folks like me having some war-freak neighbors, my listening sessions at nights is quite soft... hence not much ear fatigue really! Lucky for tubes they mostly make lots of odd ordered harmonics, which is pleasing to the ears, yet still they are bloody fake, hence low-fi. Now, you're tell me, if I play a tube amp loud even at midnight, my horrible neighbors will not attack me? You tell that to the dead marines in Iraq.

Points well taken,  but I think you got it mixed-up.  SS generate odd-order harmonics and tubes have even order harmonics.  Not the other way around.  

[Blade]

"What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?"
BUDGET...

for less than 15k, what tube amp could i get? recommendations are welcome...
since i have my existing HT setup, would love to have a tube amp for audio para i can get the best of both worlds...
i can switch from SS to tubes depending on my mood and musical preference...
but luckily we were able to audition Doc's great setup wherein you can use both your tube and SS simul (just have to make certain adjustments depende sa listening preference)...

imho, kanya kanya pa rin talaga diskarte...tutal ikaw naman ang makikinig...
at least you have both tubes & SS at your house...


blade.

[audio_tyro]

Hey, thanks man for correcting me kung baliktad nga. Kakahiya ah! hehehe. Mabuti na nga lang talaga I like tubes and SS, kaya ayos lang.

[audio_tyro]

"What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?"
BUDGET...
for less than 15k, what tube amp could i get? recommendations are welcome...
since i have my existing HT setup, would love to have a tube amp for audio para i can get the best of both worlds...
i can switch from SS to tubes depending on my mood and musical preference...
but luckily we were able to audition Doc's great setup wherein you can use both your tube and SS simul (just have to make certain adjustments depende sa listening preference)...

imho, kanya kanya pa rin talaga diskarte...tutal ikaw naman ang makikinig...
at least you have both tubes & SS at your house...
blade.

Hi Blade, well first of all, I hope your speakers have a sensitivity rating somewhere in the 90s dB. Then you have have two options:

1. Contact ArnoldC on how to build a 2A3 single ended tube amp.
2. Save up some more (add a few thousand bucks) and get Corrtsy's TS Audio tube amps (around P18K more or less). Kunting tumbling na lang naka TS Audio amp ka na. Galing din tumunog yon for the price!

If your speakers are around 88dB only (or below), you should get used to listening to it at 3PM volume position of the TS Audio (for instance). No sound can be had at 11 o' clock volume position. hehe.

[jofkevski]

SS have its merits so does tubes but if you really have not tried tubes then how can you comparatively say tubes are worse than SS. Try it (using a good cheap one, not using a bad expensive one or even worse a bad cheap one) then give me your verdict then I will not argue. You can never argue with preference. Else you don not know a F*** about what you are saying.

 

Well said. Problem kasi sa thread na ito, binabago yung tema ng usapan - reason why YOU dont ... then they insist their tubes are better than SS. Hindi lamang ito ang thread about this discussion, and such discussion existed even long before with hardcore audiophiles. If you want to declare in a thread that tube is better than SS, then create another thread to that effect.

So like audio tyro - I just smile at them. So if you insist tubes is better, then I quote johnmarco on this again ... You can never argue with preference. Else you dont know a F*** about what you are saying.

Taking this hobby is not only acquiring SARS. This is in fact a bottomless pit. After acquiring the tube, you acquire high sensitive speaker, and on and on and on. Well at least you enjoy the fall to the pit.

[rtsy]

Well said. Problem kasi sa thread na ito, binabago yung tema ng usapan - reason why YOU dont ... then they insist their tubes are better than SS.

It's one thing to stay clearly on topic about why folks don't go into tubes.  And I agree with you that we should stay the course.

However, it's another thing to make sweeping general statements THAT ARE FALSE or at least not true in all instances about tubes that will then be used to answer the question about why not go into tubes.

Peace!

[john5479]

its all the same whether you go ss or tubes or hybrid, as the goals are the same, get the sound you want. choose your poison as one would say  

[Superman]

i agree with you, adrian...depends on the mood and the taste of whoever listens...some people want the "speed" of solid state sound...some people prefer the "lambing" and "hagod" of tubes (which i prefer)...some people want hybrid...

the best part is...whatever we want, whatever is our taste, we can always claim that it's the best...what other people say won't matter...it's YOU who matters (tama ba grammar??? ) ...thanks!  

pero siyempre, ako tubes pa rin...even the re-sale value of tubes mas OK...but again, that's me...

[Johnmarc0]

Well,

Good points made guys, I do agree, again I respect preference over religion (that's why audio tyro is still a good friend of mine though he did not show up in me b-day bash, lagot cya!). On speed and attack of SS. I certainly agree that most SS amps have fast decay and ascension, but it is a fact that speed and decay/ascension is caused by negative feedback thresholds implemented in most SS amps. Not bec it is only inherent in SS. If you have access to let us say a VTL50 or an ST70, decay and attack iis also inherent to these amps because of the negative feedback mechanism they utilize.

It is a fact that negative feedback can be used in any active device tube or SS it just so happen that SS amps utilize them more while most tube designs do not use feedback at all.

Feedback is especially important for SS as thermal runaway can be a huge problem (just imagine the look i a guy's face who recently got his krell toasted, I have seen one). Negative feedback is needed to put SS devices in steady state, sonic consequence is decay and attack. Now, that sound is heavily colorated (even darth hansen will not disagree with this) as negative feedback is a deliberate reintroduction of off phase controlled distortion in the earlier driver stages of an amp to bring the SS operating properties within a predetermined power/thermal ratio envelope.

Also, as another note, you can design a 300B with feedback and get the same results or maybe better, all takes is a cap and a resistor and do the math to determine the feedback roll on and roll off points and there you are.

That is why CJs have been popular, some SS guys who wants to move into tubes but can not let go of fast attack and decay would definitely get CJ for their liking.

Again it boils down to preferred distortion, coloration and harmonics.

Whatta ya think?

JM
   

[Johnmarc0]

Rsty,

We downed beer, bourbon, cognac and liquer. It was a pop up gig so everyone had a good time, u should have been there lotsa fun and alaskahan.

JM

[audio_tyro]

Pareng JM, thanks that you still consider me as your friend, at least I can still look forward to the day that I borrow one of your 9mm parabellums (with silencer ha?). Hehehe.

Sabi ko nga I love both SS and tubes. Hayaan mo, if I win in next year's election, I will have Mark Levinson and CJ ART systems driving seven sets of different speakers (palit-palit kada araw!).

Pare I text you that I will come if you will invite me, kakahiya pumunta hindi naman invited. Is this still your cp# or nagbago ka na to Smart? ==> 0917-535-___4 ? Ikaw ang lagot. (lusot?)

[Johnmarc0]

prolema partner did not know it was a party, these guys surprised me nalaman ko lang 6pm na, tapos 11pm na nagumpisa, sir racio did all the invites not me. Tinanong ko nga cya why u n russ were not around.

JM

[Johnmarc0]

Re on speaker sensitivity,

If your speaker is a ployprop type then most prbobably you need a high output amp (tube or SS) if not ur ok with the low wattage amps. I particularly like paper coned speakers mas consistent and performance.


JM

[jofkevski]

Hi johnmarco!

I am about to make that observation - so far, whats the papercone driver speaker you may recommend - I mean medyo within the wharf/mission budget perimeter.

[Garp]

What's holding me from experimenting with tubes? I'm a newbie to electronics and even more so to tubes. I want to build my own (simple 2a3) and this might sound idiotic to some but I don't know where to get transformers! Where can I get cheap ones (meaning not Tamura or Magnaquest). Shipping is SO expensive for transformers. Ok na sana presyo ng Hammond but can't stomach shipping costs. Any suggestion where I can have cheap ones made?  Thanks.

[levi]

To Everyone,

     The reason why this thread was resurrected was to explain the myth and the facts about tubes and SS. We are not doing a slambook where you can just post anything you like. We want everyone to learn and sometimes explanation needs some comparisons but not gear bashing. Again I want to emphasize that we dont want newbies deciding based on misconceptions and wrong informations.

Levi

[Racio]

Hey Lev, I did find it a bit amusing that this thread's been given another lease on life. Anyways, here's my take on this hot hot hot topic again.

If your speakers are around 88dB only (or below), you should get used to listening to it at 3PM volume position of the TS Audio (for instance). No sound can be had at 11 o' clock volume position. hehe.

Please let me just point out pare koi, that to my humble ears, the TS 34.1 could very well drive a pair of 87dB 6ohm monitors to rompin' levels at mere 9 o'clock and can become excruciatingly loud at 12 in an adequately large room. It even reached 2 o'clock on a 35dB gain phonostage w/o clipping. (BTW, I did send you an invite to crash JM's condo that day. hehe.)

Well, I must say that it's a bit disappointing to read all these misconceptions regarding valve amplification. Like what the good ol' prof just reiterated, as there are varying degrees of amplification with sand amps, there are also a good number of tube amps than can knock the socks off most low sens (80-85dB) speakers. Going valve doesn't necessarily mean you also have to go horns.

Now, if we were to talk about the sheer economic practicality of this hobby, unless you turn this into an income generating venture, I'm afraid it's very much non-existent. Hard it may be to accept, lahat ito luho.

But indeed, life is too short to miss out on these pleasures, it's shorter still if we perpetually dwell in this disputes like these. I suggest that if one's truly undecided, yah drag your butt to your fave audio shop, then sit back and have a long good listen. Your own aural taste and distinct level of hearing acuity should have final say w/c medium reproduces the most truthful fidelity.

Ultimately, we should deem these audio equipment, either SS or tubes (or tube sounding SS or SS sounding tubes for that matter), as simply a means to an end, a quite attainable right of passage to bliss, a mere conduit to music... the be all end all of it all. Alrighty then?

[Johnmarc0]

Hi johnmarco!

I am about to make that observation - so far, whats the papercone driver speaker you may recommend - I mean medyo within the wharf/mission budget perimeter.

Here's the joke of it, paper coned driver speakers are expensive way beyond mission class budget but!...... paper cone drivers are cheap and there are good ones too...if you can get a radio shack 500 peso RS1354 driver give me a call I will buy it from you 5 times more (hehehehehe).

Anyways, try this approach, try using fostex drivers, maybe some radio shacks, I use atlas in my homebuilt floor stander and I got it for 900 pesos each. install it in ur mission, make sure they have the same or close Qts (theil-small Q factor) parameters and it should work. Speaker tuning (liters of air and aperture area ) is determined by Qts, if you fit in another driver with the same Qts but using papercones, u should realize a good increase in musicaity. I got to warn u though it is still a hit and miss affair. But be jolly about it.

There is a lot of mission mods that you can do, why not work with that one first.


JM

[Johnmarc0]

What's holding me from experimenting with tubes? I'm a newbie to electronics and even more so to tubes. I want to build my own (simple 2a3) and this might sound idiotic to some but I don't know where to get transformers! Where can I get cheap ones (meaning not Tamura or Magnaquest). Shipping is SO expensive for transformers. Ok na sana presyo ng Hammond but can't stomach shipping costs. Any suggestion where I can have cheap ones made?  Thanks.

Garp,

There is a tamura dealer in town, try hyper triode, he can sell the units to u, he is a tamura dealer. You can also get tangos from him try search the net for local dealers. One approach me and arnoldc did was wind our own spec trannies. I specified the winding form and method and arnold got it winded by a person who wind vacuum tube trannies for the past 40 years. Cost....1200 pesos a pair and it beats the crap out of hammond and magnequest. I do use a lot of tamura and tangos (I got 12 pairs in my repertoire) but this local one is a killer. It will be included in the www.wiredstate.com 10K 2A3 amp project. Check that one out it is a 2A3 kit with pre punched plate and that includes tubes. Play with gourmet parts later once you got it running.


JM

[hyperion]

Did I hear my name mentioned? Lo behold, the tube barbarian is here.

Feedback is especially important for SS as thermal runaway can be a huge problem (just imagine the look i a guy's face who recently got his krell toasted, I have seen one). Negative feedback is needed to put SS devices in steady state, sonic consequence is decay and attack. Now, that sound is heavily colorated (even darth hansen will not disagree with this) as negative feedback is a deliberate reintroduction of off phase controlled distortion in the earlier driver stages of an amp to bring the SS operating properties within a predetermined power/thermal ratio envelope.

NFB is in short used to make SS sound tonally more linear than they really are. All this while neglecting the consistent sonic effect of NFB which is to introduce dynamic and timing distortions to music, making it sound less fluid, more sterilized and mechanical.

But NFB does have some usefulness if used in moderation. It can be used to lower output impedance, and hence increase damping factor and improve an amplifier's compatibility with a wider variety of typical reactive multi-way speakers. For rock and other hard edged music, NFB can be employed to create that heavily compressed "galit" sound that might otherwise sound too smooth and tame with zero FB designs.

Also, as another note, you can design a 300B with feedback and get the same results or maybe better, all takes is a cap and a resistor and do the math to determine the feedback roll on and roll off points and there you are.

Right on. You should give the idea to Arnie. 300B with NFB might be the proper solution for his apetite for Metallica and Marilyn Manson. (pucha bakit walang twisted emoticon dito?)

That is why CJs have been popular, some SS guys who wants to move into tubes but can not let go of fast attack and decay would definitely get CJ for their liking.

You must be reffering to Audio Research stuff because CJs inherently have blunted rounded sound, fast attacks but extra long decay (in fact longer than some mis-designed directly heated triodes hehehe). Of course CJs because of beam tetrode tubes in ultralinear operation and solid state rectification and regulation still sound harsher and less fluid than good directly heated triodes. OTOH, as you will discover when you finally get to hear my system - that it is the odd combination of subtle refinement and pushy aggression, coyness and authority; and the aggression part is deliberate because some of the music I listen to need that hard edge to sound convincing.

( My system sounds like me of course: maginoo pero medyo bastos hehehe)

Again it boils down to preferred distortion, coloration and harmonics.

Amen. As always.

[audio_tyro]

prolema partner did not know it was a party, these guys surprised me nalaman ko lang 6pm na, tapos 11pm na nagumpisa, sir racio did all the invites not me. Tinanong ko nga cya why u n russ were not around.
JM

It's okay Sir JM. Actually nagpa-inum din kasi ako nung gabing yon, tagal malasing/matulog nung pina-inum ko'ng 3-week old boy! I think 430AM na kami natapos! Hindi masaya yon!

Nice discussion here regarding tubes and solid state. But when making decisions, a lot of aspects goes into consideration.

Maybe, just maybe... when my kids grow up, I will have both (SS and tubes again).

[Garp]

Here's the joke of it, paper coned driver speakers are expensive way beyond mission class budget but!...... paper cone drivers are cheap and there are good ones too...if you can get a radio shack 500 peso RS1354 driver give me a call I will buy it from you 5 times more (hehehehehe).

Anyways, try this approach, try using fostex drivers, maybe some radio shacks, I use atlas in my homebuilt floor stander and I got it for 900 pesos each. install it in ur mission, make sure they have the same or close Qts (theil-small Q factor) parameters and it should work. Speaker tuning (liters of air and aperture area ) is determined by Qts, if you fit in another driver with the same Qts but using papercones, u should realize a good increase in musicaity. I got to warn u though it is still a hit and miss affair. But be jolly about it.

There is a lot of mission mods that you can do, why not work with that one first.


JM

Thanks for the input Prof. Johnmarc0. Like many here, I am eagerly awaiting the 10K 2a3. I've actually gone to Rene but the tamura really is beyond my budget (I've seen Mickey's prices too). Because this will be my first DIY, chances are I'll melt my transformers or blow some of the capacitors. When I can get one running with the right b+ voltage and plate dissipation at negligible hum levels then maybe I can consider saving for a tamura or tango . I do check wiredstate everyday hoping arnoldc is back and provide more updates.

Is it possible though to cherry pick and not get the entire 2a3 set?

[Johnmarc0]

Garp,

Its really up to you, do get in touch with arnold on considerations. I do suggest though that build the amp per spec then modify it the way you want to. It is a direct coupled design so very minimal coloration.

JM

[arnoldc]

garp, you can just look at the schematic posted at wiredstate and just do it   your own parts etc BUT i highly doubt you can go lower than that.  

[Garp]

Arnoldc,

Thanks very much for the schematic (to JM too). Yes I think I can't go any lower than 10K on this so I think I'll just wait for your kit. Question lang sir on the schematic (Mods feel free to strike me down if this is out of topic), what's effect of switching on/off the high voltage CT that's connected to the filter?