Author Topic: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?  (Read 69377 times)

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Offline JojoD818

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #390 on: Apr 12, 2016 at 12:26 PM »
Actually, one of the most common misconceptions newbies face is the misconception they get from other misconceptions.  ;D

It's really hard and I admire you for your interest and willingness to study vacuum tubes. ;)

One of the most common misconceptions by tube newbies and those caught up in the "audiophile" marketing hype is that certain tubes are "audio tubes" while others are "TV tubes", etc.  When they were first designed, vacuum or electron tubes were created as general purpose tubes.  Depending upon their unique characteristics, raw materials availability, manufacturing costs, etc., some tubes were later assigned to specific purposes.  For example, a popular preamp tube - the RCA JAN CRC 12sx7gt - was originally used for radar and avionics by the US military.  However and because of its unique characteristics, it later found contemporary use as an audio preamp tube.  JAN (Joint-Army-Navy) tubes are particularly sought after now since quality is more consistent in light of the US military's more stringent manufacturing and technical specifications for these. 




So if they were all the same then why did they made a 12SX7 variation if the 12SN7 already exist? Why not use the 12SN7 instead? Was RCA making a new variation so that it can ask for more funding from the military?

The answer in the datasheet was so it can survive greater G and a longer service life. Back then, a longer service life correlates to reliability. We all know how crazy the military can get when it comes to reliability.



Quote
Technically speaking, there is no such thing as an "audio tube" or a "TV tube", etc since electron tubes do nothing more than amplify ANY electrical signal.  Later on, certain tubes were designated as transmission tubes due to their high amplification properties or as audio tubes due to low microphonics. 

Most of the so-called audio tubes now are nothing more than general purpose tubes that were later designated for audio use for marketing reasons. Mostly because of high demand from audio enthusiasts from Japan, Taiwan, etc. who wanted to soften the hardness of digital music from CD, etc, vacuum tubes that used to cost mere cents and were later designated through marketing hype as "audio tubes" (such as the NOS 300B, 2A3, etc.) have skyrocketed in price due to market speculation.  Once an unknown general purpose tube gains popularity as an "audio tube" and speculation again drives the price up (a Taiwanese once bought up tens of thousands of a particular unknown tube when it gained popularity as an "audio tube" among the DIY community), DIYers who are mostly seasoned electrical engineers like Tony who have been exposed to both the analog and digital side of the technology then search for other tubes to use.  You'll see this phenomenon happen often on DIY audio sites. 

Once a tube becomes expensive, Tony and the other DIYer's then search for other unknown but still relatively-cheap tubes which can be used for audio and then design and build customized circuits for these.  At the end of the day, what truly counts in tube audio is the sound and not the marketing hype surrounding certain tubes since this only serves to fatten those in the business of milking money out of those who don't know any better.


Ah... there may not be an official designation for "audio tubes" and "TV tubes" but there exists a "classification" that most tend to overlook. Especially those who believe that all tubes were made to do the same thing.

Tube designations were given by virtue of "application", transmitting tubes were designated transmitting tubes because they were designed to be one, just like receiving tubes, mixing tubes, amplifying tubes, switching tubes, rectifying tubes (and the list goes on) does.

"Technically speaking" is a big word to use so excuse me if I would not want to apply that here now, why?

Simple.

Audio amplification operates on a certain frequency. So does FM, VHF, UHF, radar and yup, TV circuits as well. If you don't consider this in your designs then you'll have linearity problems that ultimately lead to other problems such as distortion among others.

You may not hear it (good for you), but it's there.

Finally, any "seasoned carpenter" can use a pair of pliers to drive a nail and it won't matter much... as long as the carpenter understands the difference between a plier and a hammer.

Oh well, just my two cents. Everybody have a nice day. :)

« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2016 at 12:27 PM by JojoD818 »

Offline tony

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #391 on: Apr 13, 2016 at 02:04 PM »
good post JojoD, attorney Tetablanco is busy right now i suppose with the senatorial run of Sen Dick Gordon, he being a law partner and all....i am sure he will reply when he have the time...

i know about the 12sx7 but it was not me who gave him the idea, he discovered it himself, i guess his training as a lawyer was a factor, he would like to find out more about things....i merely gave him pointers...

in fact he never ceases to amaze me at the information he is able to dig up....lawyers van be techies too...
Just like Stuart Yaniger at diyaudio, he is a chemical physicist by education, but he sure knows a lot about tubes...

Facebook is where the action is right now....there are two pages dedicated to pinoy audio enthusiasts, Audio Philippines, https://www.facebook.com/groups/audiophilippines/ and another page Audio Filipinas...https://www.facebook.com/groups/audiopilipinas/ the two are evolving and generating excitement, glad to be a part of it...
those who are strictly into solid state amps, there are many, this is just a sample...https://www.facebook.com/groups/301399146708263/
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline JojoD818

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #392 on: Apr 13, 2016 at 04:11 PM »
Well I wasn't really waiting for a reply, my intentions were merely to straighten some of the "misconceptions" and share what I believe is right. It would be prudent for other members reading the topic to read the reasons behind the who and the why with regards with vacuum tubes. It's costly to prove later that what you read and thought was right was in fact flawed.

I built the very first Aikido Tube Preamp in the country (second in Asia) using the 12SN7, so I guess I can say I also did my homework with regards to that particular tube. Though I never said you gave him the idea, but him being a lawyer means we both share the same passion for the truth. I'm sure attorney Tetablanco knows the saying that if you repeat a lie often, people will believe it and you will come to believe it too. It's the very reason I challenge the "misconception" so others won't believe it and learn what is right.

Thanks for the FB links, DA already fulfills my techie fix. The passion and lust to build projects and the love for good music is what's keeping me from retiring in this field.



Offline tony

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #393 on: Apr 13, 2016 at 05:45 PM »
there are many tube type numbers that few people know about...
for example, the 12ax7 has an equivalent in the 6.3v filament type, the russian 6H2...
the 12at7 likewise have a 6.3volt filament equivalent, the 6dt8, i know this tube from the RCA
tube manual, but it is only when Edrel delivered to me 1800 tubes last year
that i saw this tube in person... it looked very much like the 6201 that i have....
in the tube world, there can be many tube types, but in reality they can be more the same...
one only needs to be patient in searching them out...

so it makes you wonder. different tube type numbers but look at them up close and they look
almost the same....

btw, the AIKIDO it seems is on the wane, i built several of those and gave them to those who
bought my bulilit preamps, and guess what, they liked the small amp better....
but of course the aikido will continue to appeal to people regardless...
« Last Edit: Apr 13, 2016 at 05:46 PM by tony »
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline tony

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #394 on: Apr 13, 2016 at 05:51 PM »
Quote
if you repeat a lie often, people will believe it and you will come to believe it too. It's the very reason I challenge the "misconception" so others won't believe it and learn what is right.

i have since moved on from that one, people choose the lie anyway...
i am tired tilting windmill, i do not care anymore,
i just want to make tube amps....:D
« Last Edit: Apr 13, 2016 at 07:25 PM by tony »
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline JojoD818

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #395 on: Apr 13, 2016 at 10:52 PM »
In terms of "many", I guess there's a houseful of tubes still out there to be discovered. But I'd be happier if they'd come with a datasheet. Even if they look totally the same to my eyes, I'd still be interested about certain parameters such as transconductance, plate resistance, etc. Besides, I wouldn't know when the plate voltage is already too much (or too little). Spending several loadline nights is in order.


so it makes you wonder. different tube type numbers but look at them up close and they look
almost the same....



True, but I'd still be careful even if they look alike. I once put my arms around a woman whom I honestly thought was my wife. I swear she really looked a lot like my wife looking from behind. I was lucky I only got a weird smile from her and not a slap in the face.



btw, the AIKIDO it seems is on the wane, i built several of those and gave them to those who
bought my bulilit preamps, and guess what, they liked the small amp better....
but of course the aikido will continue to appeal to people regardless...

The Aikido remains to be the mainstay preamp of my system, even after building, owning, repairing other tube preamps. Besides, not ALL Aikidos are the same. But I consider a person's choice (including mine) as a subjective matter, popularity plays no role in my enjoyment. There's a lot to choose from anyway, I guess as long as we enjoy it.


Offline JojoD818

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #396 on: Apr 13, 2016 at 10:57 PM »
i have since moved on from that one, people choose the lie anyway...
i am tired tilting windmill, i do not care anymore,
i just want to make tube amps....:D

diba meron kasabihan "the only thing needed for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"...

though I guess it's understandable why you are isolating yourself and not caring anymore, mahirap din kasi magturo minsan...

Offline tetablanco

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #397 on: Apr 14, 2016 at 01:44 AM »
Well I wasn't really waiting for a reply, my intentions were merely to straighten some of the "misconceptions" and share what I believe is right. It would be prudent for other members reading the topic to read the reasons behind the who and the why with regards with vacuum tubes. It's costly to prove later that what you read and thought was right was in fact flawed.

I built the very first Aikido Tube Preamp in the country (second in Asia) using the 12SN7, so I guess I can say I also did my homework with regards to that particular tube. Though I never said you gave him the idea, but him being a lawyer means we both share the same passion for the truth. I'm sure attorney Tetablanco knows the saying that if you repeat a lie often, people will believe it and you will come to believe it too. It's the very reason I challenge the "misconception" so others won't believe it and learn what is right.

Thanks for the FB links, DA already fulfills my techie fix. The passion and lust to build projects and the love for good music is what's keeping me from retiring in this field.




Sorry just got to read this thread. Tony was correct when he said that I've been very busy between the recent Voter's Receipts case which we had argued and won before the Supreme Court, the ongoing campaign of Sen. Dick Gordon, and my other professional work.

Thanks for the points you raised. As a lawyer, I never claimed to be an expert on vacuum tubes. Whatever little knowledge I may have culled from various sources was solely due to my growing interest in this new passion of mine. Rest assured that I am not aware of having lied about any of the points I had posted.  Your insinuation that I may have done so is grossly uncalled for and absolutely baseless.

In any event, my rather impassioned defense of those brave enough to adopt radical but technically-sound contrarian views about tubes may have raised some eyebrows, apparently including yours.  My simple point is that no one should simply dismiss another's personal and technical views, most especially on the basis of ill-conceived notions and marketing hype surrounding certain tubes. Ever since Tony had taught me to judge a tube on the basis of my own ears and not on sheer herd mentality, I consider myself truly fortunate for having Tony as my first and foremost Sensei on tubes.
« Last Edit: Apr 14, 2016 at 01:51 AM by tetablanco »

Offline tony

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #398 on: Apr 14, 2016 at 06:39 AM »
i am honored tetablanco......after all, who am i to tell you how you should enjoy your hobby...?
there are members here who call me and ask me about things, "me mga bumubulong daw sa kanila"
so i give the technical explanations and then ask him, you decide....after a while he calls me back
and tell me he is thankful he talked to me, he saved a lot of money......;)

if you recall, that like a lawyer, you tried to grill me asking me which amplifiers i made is the best sounding...;)
now i can say, if an amp i made is not to my liking, i tear it down and start over again...
i am proud to say, i do not look at people coming to me as an opportunity to make money,
money has never been a motivation for me, i am a pensioner and i have enough
so money is no issue to me....
this hobby should be stress free and a therapy, in all an enjoyment, if not, then you are probably in the wrong hobby...

lastly, i would like to congratulate you and the good senator Richard Gordon for the voter receipt affirmation by the SC....in a country where compliance to the laws seems almost optional to borrow Duterte, that decision by the SC gives us hope.....
« Last Edit: Apr 14, 2016 at 06:40 AM by tony »
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline at_sunset_blvd

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #399 on: Apr 14, 2016 at 07:01 AM »
Because i love solid state. It rocks!!!!

Rock ON!  8)
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Offline tetablanco

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #400 on: Apr 14, 2016 at 07:46 AM »
i am honored tetablanco......after all, who am i to tell you how you should enjoy your hobby...?
there are members here who call me and ask me about things, "me mga bumubulong daw sa kanila"
so i give the technical explanations and then ask him, you decide....after a while he calls me back
and tell me he is thankful he talked to me, he saved a lot of money......;)

if you recall, that like a lawyer, you tried to grill me asking me which amplifiers i made is the best sounding...;)
now i can say, if an amp i made is not to my liking, i tear it down and start over again...
i am proud to say, i do not look at people coming to me as an opportunity to make money,
money has never been a motivation for me, i am a pensioner and i have enough
so money is no issue to me....
this hobby should be stress free and a therapy, in all an enjoyment, if not, then you are probably in the wrong hobby...

lastly, i would like to congratulate you and the good senator Richard Gordon for the voter receipt affirmation by the SC....in a country where compliance to the laws seems almost optional to borrow Duterte, that decision by the SC gives us hope.....

Thank you too Tony for generously giving your time and effort to mentor me and countless others on tubes.  As for the Voter Receipts case, all credit goes to the good Senator for his masterful arguments before the Supreme Court and his untiring defense of voter rights.

Offline dana

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #401 on: Apr 14, 2016 at 09:21 AM »
"this hobby should be stress free and a therapy, in all an enjoyment, if not, then you are probably in the wrong hobby..."

masterfully said papaT :)

Offline tony

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #402 on: Apr 14, 2016 at 09:29 AM »
Thank you too Tony for generously giving your time and effort to mentor me and countless others on tubes.  As for the Voter Receipts case, all credit goes to the good Senator for his masterful arguments before the Supreme Court and his untiring defense of voter rights.


hindi naman sa pagyayabang, i have assisted at least 7 persons make their own tube amps, some here and the others in other forums...
wrt making their own power traffos, i have assisted countless persons here, and at least 4 persons from india and one in texas....
i have helped two people, a namesake from Hong Kong and another pinoy( a manager working for Vishay) build their own super leach amps...
my reasoning is that if i can help them and in the process they get another source of income, then my efforts were not in vain....
so there is really no reason for people to question my motives.....
if they don't like me for whatever reason, that is not my problem, if they ask for information from me
i will give it to them....simple as that...
enough of this rant....:D
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline tony

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #403 on: Apr 14, 2016 at 09:30 AM »
"this hobby should be stress free and a therapy, in all an enjoyment, if not, then you are probably in the wrong hobby..."

masterfully said papaT :)


glad you got it....thanks Don...;)
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline tony

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #404 on: Apr 14, 2016 at 09:32 AM »
Rock ON!  8)

indeed.....whatever floats your boat is probably the best option for you...
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline JojoD818

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #405 on: Apr 14, 2016 at 04:32 PM »
Sorry just got to read this thread. Tony was correct when he said that I've been very busy between the recent Voter's Receipts case which we had argued and won before the Supreme Court, the ongoing campaign of Sen. Dick Gordon, and my other professional work.

Thanks for the points you raised. As a lawyer, I never claimed to be an expert on vacuum tubes. Whatever little knowledge I may have culled from various sources was solely due to my growing interest in this new passion of mine. Rest assured that I am not aware of having lied about any of the points I had posted.  Your insinuation that I may have done so is grossly uncalled for and absolutely baseless.




I deeply regret the way you understand my posts, obviously in bad taste. I never claimed anything about you being an expert, I admit that my only fault was to merely point out some points that you already have concluded. I never said you lied, I was comparing a lie to a post in the internet, read it many times and it becomes the truth even if it's not. It was never a personal remark. I apologize if it came out as such.



Quote
In any event, my rather impassioned defense of those brave enough to adopt radical but technically-sound contrarian views about tubes may have raised some eyebrows, apparently including yours.  My simple point is that no one should simply dismiss another's personal and technical views, most especially on the basis of ill-conceived notions and marketing hype surrounding certain tubes. Ever since Tony had taught me to judge a tube on the basis of my own ears and not on sheer herd mentality, I consider myself truly fortunate for having Tony as my first and foremost Sensei on tubes.

Rest assured that my eyebrows have nothing to do with it, though I regret you missed the real point that I was trying to raise, probably due to your rather "impassioned defense" of those brave souls.

Radical and technically sound. Using a pair of pliers to drive a nail may be thought of as radical, but a hammer would be more technically sound don't you think? If you still miss the point then please never mind that.

Anyway, since you mentioned your very busy schedule, I would refrain from discussing any further so as not to take anymore of your precious time. I leave you in peace and bid you good luck in whatever future tube endeavors you'll have.

Offline tetablanco

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #406 on: Apr 14, 2016 at 05:32 PM »

I deeply regret the way you understand my posts, obviously in bad taste. I never claimed anything about you being an expert, I admit that my only fault was to merely point out some points that you already have concluded. I never said you lied, I was comparing a lie to a post in the internet, read it many times and it becomes the truth even if it's not. It was never a personal remark. I apologize if it came out as such.



Rest assured that my eyebrows have nothing to do with it, though I regret you missed the real point that I was trying to raise, probably due to your rather "impassioned defense" of those brave souls.

Radical and technically sound. Using a pair of pliers to drive a nail may be thought of as radical, but a hammer would be more technically sound don't you think? If you still miss the point then please never mind that.

Anyway, since you mentioned your very busy schedule, I would refrain from discussing any further so as not to take anymore of your precious time. I leave you in peace and bid you good luck in whatever future tube endeavors you'll have.


Apology accepted.

Offline tony

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #407 on: Apr 14, 2016 at 06:26 PM »
jojod, why not build yourself a tube power amp?
it has been a long time since i saw you build one, you will surely like it...;)
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline CoolTOYZPH

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #408 on: Apr 14, 2016 at 06:47 PM »
speechless... :o  >:(   :(
« Last Edit: Apr 14, 2016 at 09:17 PM by CoolTOYZPH »
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Offline at_sunset_blvd

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #409 on: Apr 14, 2016 at 08:27 PM »
indeed.....whatever floats your boat is probably the best option for you...

To be honest Master Tony, a little bit of both keeps me SANE  :)
« Last Edit: Apr 14, 2016 at 08:28 PM by at_sunset_blvd »
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Offline tony

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #410 on: Apr 15, 2016 at 07:22 AM »
To be honest Master Tony, a little bit of both keeps me SANE  :)

that is fair...i would normally suggest that to those who seek my advice,
a SET, a push-pull tube amps, and solid state amps.....
the other option is a tube preamp paired with a solid state power amp....

jojod's gainclone baby G's and his babyT is one such fine example....

you can have both tubes and solid state to make good music by...
« Last Edit: Apr 15, 2016 at 08:00 AM by tony »
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline tony

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #411 on: Apr 15, 2016 at 06:22 PM »
for those technically inclined: this is our other hang-out....
Re: Tube amplifier learning while building, all you want to know
http://www.elab.ph/forum/index.php?topic=34991.new#new
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline tony

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #412 on: Apr 18, 2016 at 08:19 AM »
posted this in Audio Pilipinas in facebook....

Quote
unsolicited advice: do not take what is told you by anyone, not even me, hook line and sinker....trust only your ears......some personalities develop a following almost to a culthood, and members tend to believe even if they have no idea, simply that they like the person.....they tend to flock together and will gang up on anyone who happens to have a contrary view, i will consider this to be unfortunate as these folks will never know what they missed by fencing themselves in around a master....so just continue enjoying the music folks...

Quote
i value comments from those who hear my amps, and since it is me who made the amp, i know what went into the amp and so i value criticism from end users, they are priceless gifts to me...the lessons learned gives me more directions in my builds...i have a very good idea as to what works or not.....
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2016 at 08:42 AM by tony »
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline jerrylodi

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #413 on: Apr 18, 2016 at 09:13 AM »
Dedicated rock set-up(super budget meal)    >:D
" no tubes "  ;D


Offline dana

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #414 on: Apr 18, 2016 at 10:21 AM »
niceness. pang harabas, rakrakan.
btw, the rack is pine material, palo china, tama ba?
like na like ng anay yan. treated po ba, what treatment did u use kung meron man?

Offline CoolTOYZPH

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #415 on: Apr 18, 2016 at 10:26 AM »
@jerryidol, I will wait for you to post the "mayaman" tube set-up that you use for Vocals, Jazz, Acoustic. You, Me, Remington, and those who have visited your place know who made the AMP ;) Ha ha ha!
Where is the Love? BEP

Offline remington

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #416 on: Apr 18, 2016 at 10:31 AM »
@jerryidol, I will wait for you to post the "mayaman" tube set-up that you use for Vocals, Jazz, Acoustic. You, Me, Remington, and those who have visited your place know who made the AMP ;) Ha ha ha!

i post na yan hehehe!!!
tube + audio nirvana = beyond...

Offline tetablanco

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #417 on: Apr 18, 2016 at 01:52 PM »
posted this in Audio Pilipinas in facebook....


Just keep on helping and educating others like me, Tony. There will always be people who want to be king of their own small domain.

Offline tony

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #418 on: Apr 18, 2016 at 01:57 PM »
Just keep on helping and educating others like me, Tony. There will always be people who want to be king of their own small domain.

yes Teta, that is the reason for my sticking around......there are people that appreciates me for my posts, and it is for them that i here for.......i am here for those that can use my creations...

btw, i am starting with a new 5894 set and another 12SX7 line amp......
Mandy Marino's OTL is in the works too...
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline tetablanco

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #419 on: Apr 18, 2016 at 02:02 PM »
yes Teta, that is the reason for my sticking around......there are people that appreciates me for my posts, and it is for them that i here for.......i am here for those that can use my creations...

btw, i am starting with a new 5894 set and another 12SX7 line amp......
Mandy Marino's OTL is in the works too...


Can't wait to hear your newest babies, Tony. Thanks again. :)