Author Topic: Are your speakers analytical/hyperdetailed? List them here!  (Read 15181 times)

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Offline obey

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Re: Are your speakers analytical/hyperdetailed? List them here!
« Reply #150 on: Nov 23, 2005 at 11:53 AM »
I agree that most of us learn so much from discussions here but maybe it is better reading the good points of concerned members if we try using more friendly words. Most of the time good arguments loses its value because of the words used to convey..  ;)

This is just a friendly reminder ..  :)



Tumpak!  This is supposed to be a friendly forum.  We are all here to share whatever we know about audio.  Hindi naman ito contest kung sino ang pinakamagaling, kung sino ang tama, o kung sino ang pinakamaraming alam.  Lahat tayo ay may natututunan sa bawat isa.  Yun lang po :)
« Last Edit: Nov 23, 2005 at 11:53 AM by obey »

Kevlar

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Re: Are your speakers analytical/hyperdetailed? List them here!
« Reply #151 on: Nov 23, 2005 at 02:00 PM »
I agree that most of us learn so much from discussions here but maybe it is better reading the good points of concerned members if we try using more friendly words. Most of the time good arguments loses its value because of the words used to convey..  ;)

This is just a friendly reminder ..  :)


Tumpak!  This is supposed to be a friendly forum.  We are all here to share whatever we know about audio.  Hindi naman ito contest kung sino ang pinakamagaling, kung sino ang tama, o kung sino ang pinakamaraming alam.  Lahat tayo ay may natututunan sa bawat isa.  Yun lang po :)

Ok.  Ayoko na mag-discuss further dito kay I seem to lack 'friendly words'
and that I am perceived as contesting for 'sino ang pinakamagaling'. ;D

I'm outta here. 

But before that, let me explain para may 'due process' before you petition me out
of this thread...  ;D

1. 'distorted' is a relatively friendly word for a 'heated' discussion like in this thread.
I could have used the word 'nasty' if I wanted 'less friendly'...  ;D

2. I am not contesting for 'sino ang pinakamagaling'.  I am willing to 'eat my words'
if my viewpoints are clearly 'faulty' or 'misleading'.

Having said both, I'm outta here...
I will just go back to where I belong... the B&W 600 series thread.  ;D

Thank you for your comments.  I'll keep them in mind in my future posts.

 ;D Kevlar


Offline bumblebee

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Re: Are your speakers analytical/hyperdetailed? List them here!
« Reply #152 on: Nov 23, 2005 at 02:03 PM »
This is like comparing apples and oranges. Hindi ko na maalala kung ano yung unang pinagtatalunan.

Offline bumblebee

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Re: Are your speakers analytical/hyperdetailed? List them here!
« Reply #153 on: Nov 23, 2005 at 02:08 PM »
Tumpak!  This is supposed to be a friendly forum.  We are all here to share whatever we know about audio.  Hindi naman ito contest kung sino ang pinakamagaling, kung sino ang tama, o kung sino ang pinakamaraming alam.  Lahat tayo ay may natututunan sa bawat isa.  Yun lang po :)


Ok.  Ayoko na mag-discuss further dito kay I seem to lack 'friendly words'
and that I am perceived as contesting for 'sino ang pinakamagaling'. ;D

I'm outta here. 

But before that, let me explain para may 'due process' before you petition me out
of this thread...  ;D

1. 'distorted' is a relatively friendly word for a 'heated' discussion like in this thread.
I could have used the word 'nasty' if I wanted 'less friendly'...  ;D

2. I am not contesting for 'sino ang pinakamagaling'.  I am willing to 'eat my words'
if my viewpoints are clearly 'faulty' or 'misleading'.

Having said both, I'm outta here...
I will just go back to where I belong... the B&W 600 series thread.  ;D

Thank you for your comments.  I'll keep them in mind in my future posts.

 ;D Kevlar



No need to go, Kevlar. Lahat tayo nadadala ng emotions natin. I'm sure Sir Jerix posted that as a reminder for all of us.

Offline audioslave

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Re: Are your speakers analytical/hyperdetailed? List them here!
« Reply #154 on: Nov 23, 2005 at 03:47 PM »
Obviously, some posters coiuldn't carry a decent argument.  I shouldn't have wasted my time dignifying  the post of a cranially destitute poster.  For now, I'll refrain from stooping down to the creature's level.

"cranially destitute poster" - i like the term... sir, hanggang ngayon ba, di ka pa natuto dito sa pdvd?  ;D

Offline jerix

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Re: Are your speakers analytical/hyperdetailed? List them here!
« Reply #155 on: Nov 23, 2005 at 03:52 PM »
No need to go, Kevlar. Lahat tayo nadadala ng emotions natin. I'm sure Sir Jerix posted that as a reminder for all of us.

your correct bumblebee  ;)

Bro Kevlar - no offense meant.. its OK ;)  thnx anyway for clarifying your intentions when u said that word. at least we all know now and concerned people can relax. Because without you explaining it, it is a lil different. You can call my speakers DISTORTED yes got no problem with that because sometimes thats true, but i will feel something else when that word is used to refer to my way of thinking. thats something else...I like your points too. With all the pros and cons being presented, readers are getting two birds with one stone. Most of us cant even participate because they appear too technical. Continue posting --= the reminder is for all us.  :D

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Offline av_phile1

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Re: Are your speakers analytical/hyperdetailed? List them here!
« Reply #156 on: Nov 23, 2005 at 04:33 PM »
"cranially destitute poster" - i like the term... sir, hanggang ngayon ba, di ka pa natuto dito sa pdvd?  ;D

You're right.  Yun ang hirap sa akin.  Di na ako nadala.  I always assume people are level headed in any argument.   ;D  Kaya ayun, I also erupt when the other side can't live up to the challenge and prefers to make insinuations and editorialize on my stand instead .  Kesa patulan ko pa i'll just ignore the offending post.   At least I try to be more "creative" with words when what I really meant could have been better described with those banned 4-letter words.   ;D
« Last Edit: Nov 23, 2005 at 05:01 PM by av_phile1 »

Offline aHobbit

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Re: Are your speakers analytical/hyperdetailed? List them here!
« Reply #157 on: Nov 23, 2005 at 05:12 PM »
You're right.  Yun ang hirap sa akin.  Di na ako nadala.  I always assume people are level headed in any argument.   ;D  Kaya ayun, pag na-inis, I also erupt.  At least I try to be more innovative with words when what I really meant are better described with those 4-letter words.   ;D

 ;) ... and some people think I am pissed off?  ;D


Sabi po niya, isang standard po ang hi-fi, nasusukat, at hindi relative o subjective - in short, may tiyak na sukat at kailangang gumamit ng panukat (siguro gaya ng oscilloscope)!

Kaya may tinatawag na audio gear as (1) hi-fi , (2) mid-fi , (3) lo-fi.

Ang di lang masagot:

(1) kailan ba ang isang audio gear ay tinuturing na hi-fi - ano ang sukat niya ayon sa sinasabi niyang standard na sukatan?

(2) kailan ba ang isang audio gear ay tinuturing na mid-fi - ano ang sukat niya ayon sa sinasabi niyang standard na sukatan?

(3) kailan ba ang isang audio gear ay tinuturing na lo-fi - ano ang sukat niya ayon sa sinasabi niyang standard na sukatan?

Ang BOSE ba ay hi-fi, mid-fi, o lo-fi? at bakit?  ;D
Ang Krell ba ay hi-fi, mid-fi, o lo-fi? at bakit?  ;D  ;D
Ang mga nagtu-tubo ba ay hi-fi, mid-fi o lo-fi? at bakit? o baka kaya none of the above kasi euphonics sila?  ;D  ;D  ;D

Pasensya na po! Ang definition nila ng hi-fi ay subjective pa rin, kasi wala yung sukat na kailangang makita para mataguriang hi-fi ang isang audio gear.

Hindi po nila makita ano ang sukat ng isang hi-fi, ng isang mid-fi at ng isang lo-fi.

Hindi ko rin po makita!!!  ;D  ;D  ;D
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Offline Garp

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Re: Are your speakers analytical/hyperdetailed? List them here!
« Reply #158 on: Nov 24, 2005 at 12:48 PM »
Para sa akin hifi is objective. Kasi sound is objective, as in the reproduced waveform is as close as possible to the produced waveform. Its not the same as saying "bringing you the experience of live music as close as possible." Experience is subjective, waveforms are not.

The keywords there as mentioned several times are "as close as possible". That's why its not called "exact fidelity" just "high fidelity." The question then is what does "as close as possible" mean? I dunno. Is there a standard? I dunno. But just because we can't put an exact figure on it or that a standard definition exisits (am assumming there isn't),  its no longer objective. As concepts these terms are objective. What's subjective is how people use the terms loosely to descibe their experience.

But really all these debate is moot and academic to me kasi its not the taxonomy that governs my listening enjoyment.

Offline av_phile1

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Re: Are your speakers analytical/hyperdetailed? List them here!
« Reply #159 on: Nov 24, 2005 at 01:57 PM »
Para sa akin hifi is objective. Kasi sound is objective, as in the reproduced waveform is as close as possible to the produced waveform. Its not the same as saying "bringing you the experience of live music as close as possible." Experience is subjective, waveforms are not.

You got it dead on, Garp.  People often confuse the objectives of this hobby with the objectives of High Fidelity.  They're entirely different.  High fidelity leans more towards the objective and measureable.   On the other hand, the hobby deals with personal experience.  The hobby induges your personal experience on what sounds right for you or what sounds closest to your personal perception of real musical sounds, if at all that's what you want to achieve sonic nirvana.    High Fidelity doesn't deal with perceptions.    Its objective of faithfulness to the recording at home reproduction or playback is just another road to your sonic nirvana. In other words,  Hi fi is just an option to take. You can go to the more exotic and subjective Euphonic route if you like. 

Quote
The keywords there as mentioned several times are "as close as possible". That's why its not called "exact fidelity" just "high fidelity." The question then is what does "as close as possible" mean? I dunno. Is there a standard? I dunno. But just because we can't put an exact figure on it or that a standard definition exisits (am assumming there isn't),  its no longer objective. As concepts these terms are objective. What's subjective is how people use the terms loosely to descibe their experience.


I should have said it that way.   "As close as possible" really depends on your own perception.   You cannot put a standard on personal experiences, except your own, which only applies to you and no one else.    Having said that, the definition of high fidelity does imply some measureable " standard" of sorts.  The implicit standard are the conditions that can accomplish faithfulness to the recording.  When you aim to be faithfull to a recording, the only way to attain this is to use players, amplifiers and speakers with performance traits that are neutral, transparent and accurate in the room that is likewise.  To be neutral suggests the smallest db deviation of any frequency from FLAT response across the audio bandwidth, the least % THD, TIMs and IMs and other distrotion products that add or subtract to the original signals across the audio bandwith at any power setting.  To be transparent suggests the widest bandwith for all the recorded music signal to pass through unimpeded from the softest to the loudest.  It also suggests the least interchannel crosstalk conditions and the least phase shifts that hamper the soundstage.  TO be accurate suggests the lowest db noise floors that potentially obscure the weakest details of the signals, the highest slew rates and rise times to allow the fastest signals to reveal itself and a great damping factor to let the bass signals act the way it was recorded.  Actually, the meaning of these three attributes have very slim boundaries that it is very easy to jumble the definitions of each with one another.  It really doesn't matter, for as along as we know what these conditions are in our best efforts to achieve high fidelity.  These condiitons are what we look for in the specs of our gears and some of these also apply and we measure the accoustic qualities of rooms. So they're measureable.  High Fidelity is measureable. 

Now if you have the conditions that can attain your hgihest possible fidelity to the recorded music, then your personal perceptions now enter the picture on whether those high fidelity sounds are close enough to the live performance you remember to be in one of your memorable live musical experiences or not.  High Fidleity wouldn't pressume to know how each person perceives that.  It only aims to be faithfull to the ONLY thing the comes closest to a live performance at home.  That is the recording. 

Quote
But really all these debate is moot and academic to me kasi its not the taxonomy that governs my listening enjoyment.

True.  You individual hearing biologies and your listening preferences and bias are what this hobby indulges.  Your pursuit of sonic nirvana is a personal experiential journey that defines what this hobby is about.  Whether you get there through high fidelity or not is up to you.  Standards, if any, can only guide you more easily to your quest.  It can also dictate sometimes.  But you are free to follow or not.

Offline Abad Santos 7

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Re: Are your speakers analytical/hyperdetailed? List them here!
« Reply #160 on: Nov 24, 2005 at 03:27 PM »
Sir Garp,

You got PM.

Cheers.

Offline Garp

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Re: Are your speakers analytical/hyperdetailed? List them here!
« Reply #161 on: Nov 24, 2005 at 04:31 PM »
   "As close as possible" really depends on your own perception.   


Avphile,
I'll take a minor exception to that statement lang. I think the phrase can swing either way and not as implied based merely on perception.

When people make approximations based on perception alone of what is "as close as possible" to a live recording, they are doing so subjectively. Whether that judgement is correct in the sense that the "reproduced waveform is as close as possible to the original waveform" is debatable.  But you can also say that reproduced music comes "as close as possible" in fidelity to a live recording depending on mathematical accuracy using those metrics you mentioned. You said it, high fidelity is measurable.

Of course we all know here that numbers do not necessarily translate to a heightened musical experience nor vice versa. I say vice versa because there are those who deduce that their increased musical enjoyment is a result of using a more "hifi" equipment (occassionally guilty of this). And there are those who can't decide based on either the specs or their ears  ;D ;D ;D. At the end of the day it boils down to what the numbers say vs. what your ears tell you vs. what your friends tell you.  ;D


Offline av_phile1

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Re: Are your speakers analytical/hyperdetailed? List them here!
« Reply #162 on: Nov 24, 2005 at 06:01 PM »
Quote
Of course we all know here that numbers do not necessarily translate to a heightened musical experience nor vice versa. I say vice versa because there are those who deduce that their increased musical enjoyment is a result of using a more "hifi" equipment (occassionally guilty of this). And there are those who can't decide based on either the specs or their ears  ;D ;D ;D. At the end of the day it boils down to what the numbers say vs. what your ears tell you vs. what your friends tell you.  ;D


You're absolutely right..  Numbers have no causal link to a personal experience.  And vice versa.  Technical specs that define whether the conditions for high fidelity is there or is wanting are great as a technical description of an equipment if it can build up your confidence that it can face up to the challenge of high fidelity.   When you start to listen to that gear, those numbers won't mean a thing, unless you have been psychologically conditioned to the powers of suggestion by those numbers.  Which can also happen.  ;D  The subjective can take on a firmer and more compelling hold. 

I leave the factors that influence your purchase decisions to your personal call.  Whether you are influenced by your friends, your ears or what you read on the internet or the brochure specs, that's your call.  Sonic nirvana is supposed to be your goal in this hobby.  And pursuing high fidelity is just one road to it.    Price, budget, WAF, peer acceptance, pride of ownership,  bragging rights, pedigreed or heirloom potential, and factors other than sonic quality can complicate your road or even obscure your objective in this hobby.  That's really what makes this hobby anything but static.    ;D
« Last Edit: Nov 24, 2005 at 06:51 PM by av_phile1 »

Offline oweidah

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Re: Are your speakers analytical/hyperdetailed? List them here!
« Reply #163 on: Jun 24, 2006 at 07:32 AM »
a rather funny/scary? thing happened past midnite. i was listening to FM biglang may umalulong na aso (ng kapitbahay). i rememberd this thread ;D 
« Last Edit: Jun 24, 2006 at 07:50 AM by oweidah »