Topic: Are your speakers analytical/hyperdetailed? List them here!

[Kevlar]

As usual, price is not an indicator of performance!     

I agree, price is not necessarily an indicator of performance.   
It can be, however, for some speakers, especially those
from the same brand. 

Anyway, I just read an article from the internet that some notable high end speakers
(very expensive ones like those manufactured by Wilson Audio), actually
have deviations by as much as +/- 8dB from the ideal 'flat' frequency response
to bring out a desired effect like a larger soundstage, a stronger bass, extended trebles
or more detail or probably, hyperdetail. 

It also went on to say that there are only a few speaker manufacturers
left out there that really strive for a 'flat' frequency response in speaker
design because most speaker manufacturers would want to make their
speakers stand out/sound different  from the rest and reproduce specific
recordings with startling realism (frequently better than what was really
recorded on the CD if the speaker were ruler flat/accurate). 

They don't care if other music genres sound mediocre so long as their
speakers sound incredibly live and real for the specific music genre they are
targetting at, it's ok for them.  Their credo here seems to be to 'customize'
speaker response for optimum music reproduction of specific music genres,
and deviate from the flat response as they will have to, in order to favor
certain speaker traits which will bring out the best of their speakers in a
specific genre of music they are targetting at.

Hmmm... I think I get their point... I think they don't want to be a 'jack of all trades',
'master of none' when it comes to music reproduction.  They'd rather be excellent
in some music genres, never mind mediocrity in the rest, rather than sound very good
in all music genres but never really excellent in any one of them.

- Kevlar

[aHobbit]

I agree, price is not necessarily an indicator of performance.   
It can be, however, for some speakers, especially those
from the same brand. 

Anyway, I just read an article from the internet that some notable high end speakers
(very expensive ones like those manufactured by Wilson Audio), actually
have deviations by as much as +/- 8dB from the ideal 'flat' frequency response
to bring out a desired effect like a larger soundstage, a stronger bass, extended trebles
or more detail or probably, hyperdetail. 

It also went on to say that there are only a few speaker manufacturers
left out there that really strive for a 'flat' frequency response in speaker
design because most speaker manufacturers would want to make their
speakers stand out/sound different  from the rest and reproduce specific
recordings with startling realism (frequently better than what was really
recorded on the CD if the speaker were ruler flat/accurate). 

They don't care if other music genres sound mediocre so long as their
speakers sound incredibly live and real for the specific music genre they are
targetting at, it's ok for them.  Their credo here seems to be to 'customize'
speaker response for optimum music reproduction of specific music genres,
and deviate from the flat response as they will have to, in order to favor
certain speaker traits which will bring out the best of their speakers in a
specific genre of music they are targetting at.

Hmmm... I think I get their point... I think they don't want to be a 'jack of all trades',
'master of none' when it comes to music reproduction.  They'd rather be excellent
in some music genres, never mind mediocrity in the rest, rather than sound very good
in all music genres but never really excellent in any one of them.

- Kevlar

Nice touch here kevlar! 

This should help newbie that in buying speakers (and other audio gear for that matter) - dont read the hypes (recommendations)
- know what you want to hear (your music materials)
- know how you want it to be heard (your subjectivity in listening)

AUDITION!!!

[bumblebee]

...
Anyway, I just read an article from the internet that some notable high end speakers
(very expensive ones like those manufactured by Wilson Audio), actually
have deviations by as much as +/- 8dB from the ideal 'flat' frequency response
to bring out a desired effect like a larger soundstage, a stronger bass, extended trebles
or more detail or probably, hyperdetail. 

Wilson Maxx? They took quite a beating from the Audio Perfectionist.

It also went on to say that there are only a few speaker manufacturers
left out there that really strive for a 'flat' frequency response in speaker
design because most speaker manufacturers would want to make their
speakers stand out/sound different  from the rest and reproduce specific
recordings with startling realism (frequently better than what was really
recorded on the CD if the speaker were ruler flat/accurate). 

Canadian speakers try to attain a certain standard when it comes to frequency responses. If one looks for "engineered" speakers, one should start w/ them. Unfortunately, we only have PSB's.

[rascal101]

This should help newbie that in buying speakers (and other audio gear for that matter) - dont read the hypes (recommendations)
- know what you want to hear (your music materials)
- know how you want it to be heard (your subjectivity in listening)

AUDITION!!!

Mahirap pa rin para sa akin itong audition, audition, audition lalo na sa speakers. Bakit:

1. Iyung set-up sa shop ibang ibang sa set-up ko
2. After some time, nagmumukhang pare-parehas ang tunog
3. Kailangan gumuhol ng mahabang panahon para makuha iyung "character" nung speakers

Kaya para hindi ako mahirapan:

1. Double check sa specs at graphs
2. Tingin sa budget
3. Magbasa pero huwag padala sa mga iba't ibang pahayag ng sinuman
    - Hindi porke British, American o Japanese maganda na
4. Kung posible bumili ng gawang Pilipino
5. Masiyahan kung ano man ang nabili

Iyung lang po ...

Rascal101

[H a n $]

Consider room accoustic like my setup heard it in other room/house and notice ibang iba.

[H a n $]

bumblebee,

Canadian made ang Paradigm sir..

[bumblebee]

bumblebee,

Canadian made ang Paradigm sir..

I checked their site. Yes. Paradigms and PSBs Thanks, Sir Hans

[H a n $]

I agree, price is not necessarily an indicator of performance.   
It can be, however, for some speakers, especially those
from the same brand. 

Anyway, I just read an article from the internet that some notable high end speakers
(very expensive ones like those manufactured by Wilson Audio), actually
have deviations by as much as +/- 8dB from the ideal 'flat' frequency response
to bring out a desired effect like a larger soundstage, a stronger bass, extended trebles
or more detail or probably, hyperdetail. 

It also went on to say that there are only a few speaker manufacturers
left out there that really strive for a 'flat' frequency response in speaker
design because most speaker manufacturers would want to make their
speakers stand out/sound different  from the rest and reproduce specific
recordings with startling realism (frequently better than what was really
recorded on the CD if the speaker were ruler flat/accurate). 

They don't care if other music genres sound mediocre so long as their
speakers sound incredibly live and real for the specific music genre they are
targetting at, it's ok for them.  Their credo here seems to be to 'customize'
speaker response for optimum music reproduction of specific music genres,
and deviate from the flat response as they will have to, in order to favor
certain speaker traits which will bring out the best of their speakers in a
specific genre of music they are targetting at.

Hmmm... I think I get their point... I think they don't want to be a 'jack of all trades',
'master of none' when it comes to music reproduction.  They'd rather be excellent
in some music genres, never mind mediocrity in the rest, rather than sound very good
in all music genres but never really excellent in any one of them.

- Kevlar

Try to notice Bristish made speaker di ba more in the mid band ( vocals ) sya compare to US made speaker but i maybe wrong..

[bruno]

detailed as a euphemism? are bright speakers that unpleasant?

They can impress you for a while but after extensive listening bright speakers cause listener's fatigue.

[aHobbit]

Consider room accoustic like my setup heard it in other room/house and notice ibang iba.

You may also note (if you experiment) that placing your speaker at different location in the same room can also yield different sonic performance. I encounter one post of arnoldc in that HE ROTATED HIS LISTENING ROOM because he has a bass hole in the middle     

I appreciated the post because I did the same with mine. I can not do much with my room acoustics (no time, dont want to fight for WAF), and have limited space to position my sub - but I walk around while placing my speakers/sub at feasible positions - and then PRESTO!!!

Got good mid-hi resolution  - with that glorious LOW, and I mean the LOW that creeps and send shivers to your body - and shake the picture frames in the wall even at low volume! 

acoustic can help, but in typical homes - speaker placement can do the magic!

[av_phile1]

Anyway, I just read an article from the internet that some notable high end speakers
(very expensive ones like those manufactured by Wilson Audio), actually
have deviations by as much as +/- 8dB from the ideal 'flat' frequency response
to bring out a desired effect like a larger soundstage, a stronger bass, extended trebles
or more detail or probably, hyperdetail. 

It also went on to say that there are only a few speaker manufacturers
left out there that really strive for a 'flat' frequency response in speaker
design because most speaker manufacturers would want to make their
speakers stand out/sound different  from the rest and reproduce specific
recordings with startling realism (frequently better than what was really
recorded on the CD if the speaker were ruler flat/accurate). 

They don't care if other music genres sound mediocre so long as their
speakers sound incredibly live and real for the specific music genre they are
targetting at, it's ok for them.  Their credo here seems to be to 'customize'
speaker response for optimum music reproduction of specific music genres,
and deviate from the flat response as they will have to, in order to favor
certain speaker traits which will bring out the best of their speakers in a
specific genre of music they are targetting at.

Hmmm... I think I get their point... I think they don't want to be a 'jack of all trades',
'master of none' when it comes to music reproduction.  They'd rather be excellent
in some music genres, never mind mediocrity in the rest, rather than sound very good
in all music genres but never really excellent in any one of them.

- Kevlar

This is precisely why some serious audiophiles have speakers meant for small band jazz and chamber music.  And a separate set for large orchestral music.  This is already old knowledge for most audiophiles - that some speakers sound better in certain musical genres.  And even amplifers, I must add.  

Manufacturers have long considered it a great design and production challenge to achieve true anechoic FLAT frequency response speakers.  The design goals and cost involved to overcome the laws of physics in sound propagation can be overwhelming.  That is why very few speakers can really be considered FLAT in an anechoic environment.   It is almost a correct generalization to say that ALL speakers have their respective sound coloration.  OR what is called sound signature. OR timbre (that's why there's such a thing as timber matching in multiple speaker set-ups)  A speaker that has FLAT FR does not have TIMBER, because it has no sonic coloration.  

Designing speakers the market can afford has always been a product of COMPROMISES in this or that aspect or a combination (apart from freqeuncy response curves you have  time and phase alignment of multiple drivers, cabinet diffractive qualities, on and off axis dispersion trait, cabinet and driver material resonances, crossover phase shifts, beaming qualities, etc, etc., all of which determine the coloration or timbre of speakers.)  

And knowing this, many brands have adopted a design philosophy that doesn't aim for flat frequency response, but rather on a more easily attainable EUPHONIC approach where the untameable  characteristic peaks and valleys of a speaker are deliberately harnessed to give the speaker its unique sonic signature.  Sonus Faber and other big names in speakers have adopted this philosophy.

[av_phile1]

They can impress you for a while but after extensive listening bright speakers cause listener's fatigue.

Depends on your age.  Audiophiles in their 40s can benefit from bright speakers. 

[bruno]

Depends on your age. Audiophiles in their 40s can benefit from bright speakers.

he-he-he 

Anu 'ka mo?

[aHobbit]

he-he-he 

Anu 'ka mo?

este ... tatang! 

[ricky]

Kevlar very nice explanation indeed,natumbok mo  Different persons have different taste bec they have different ears thus a lot of speaker types and models  so what may be unpleasant,tiring or irritating to some can be perfect to others,and vice versa.Its good that we have these healthy discussions once in a while so we can voice out our experiences but i hope it does not come to a point that we're  already forcing our fellow member to consider what we want and NOT WHAT THEY WANT.Lets just encourage and support each other with our same hobby without giving any incosiderate comments  to be honest medyo offensive lalo na kung pati brands ay minemention.sorry guys ha medyo tinamaan kasi ako he he he.Sir avphile bata pa po ako kahit mukha na akong lolo 

[Kevlar]

ricky,

You have a Sonus Faber? 

  Kevlar

[H a n $]

Sir Avphile,

Ganun ba?? naku po pero early 30's pa naman ako.

[Kevlar]

I'm in my early 30's also. 32 to be exact. 
Although sometimes I sound a lot older in my posts.

  Kevlar

[ricky]

kevlar, not sonus faber but sinus fiber na sticky pa lol.35yrs old here pwede pala tayo magbabarkada eh. Come to think of it, ok na din na ma judge as bright yung speakers ko without really hearing it kasi atleast matalino pala ito ha ha ha. joke lang po. have a nice day guys.

[av_phile1]

Sir Avphile,

Ganun ba?? naku po pero early 30's pa naman ako.

People start to haved diminished hearing accuity by mid 20s, starting at 19khz.    By late 30s, they'll have greater difficulty hearing above 18khz.  I think this has been discussed elsewhere.  So enjoy your music while still in your prime. 

[Kevlar]

And knowing this, many brands have adopted a design philosophy that doesn't aim for flat frequency response, but rather on a more easily attainable EUPHONIC approach where the untameable  characteristic peaks and valleys of a speaker are deliberately harnessed to give the speaker its unique sonic signature.  Sonus Faber and other big names in speakers have adopted this philosophy.

Actually, it's not that many notable speaker companies can't attain reasonable flat response given the
ultimate driver limitation.  Dips as big as +/- 10 dB can easily be avoided or reduced further during the
design stage.   But why are they present in very expensive speakers like the Wilson WATT?  
It is not because they can't do better in crossover design, or that it is the ultimate driver limitation,
rather, it is because they deliberately want their speakers to sound that way; to highlight a saleable
trait like 'hyperdetail', 'expansive soundstage', powerful bass, sparkling highs etc.  

To them, the ultimate goal is not to make the speaker reproduce the recording accurately,
but to reproduce excellent, palpably real sound, that is not limited by the fidelity
of the recording.  They want to go beyond what was recorded and 'simulate' a beautiful
live performance even if the live performance really sounded crappy.

The result of these frequency response manipulations can actually make the reproduced sound
'larger than life' much like 'drama' can move you more into tears than 'real life'.  
Of course it is not what is really accurate, and many purists will argue that the practice
is not hi-fi, but if it achieves the ultimate goal of 'touching lives' or 'touching the soul',
like what a 'live performance' is supposed to do, then why not?  

If you can make an MP3 sound like a high quality recording by having deviations as big as
+/-10 dB from the ideal flat frequency response, then why not?  It's what sells for them.
It is also why only a few speaker manufacturers out there still stick to the 'flat response'
is best or 'accurate' is best philosophy.

- Kevlar

[av_phile1]

Actually, it's not that many notable speaker companies can't attain reasonable flat response given the
ultimate driver limitation.  Dips as big as +/- 10 dB can easily be avoided or reduced further during the
design stage.   But why are they present in very expensive speakers like the Wilson WATT?  
It is not because they can't do better in crossover design, or that it is the ultimate driver limitation,
rather, it is because they deliberately want their speakers to sound that way; to highlight a saleable
trait like 'hyperdetail', 'expansive soundstage', powerful bass, sparkling highs etc.  

That's exactly my point.  By adopting a design philosophy that puts greater emphasis on putting "drama" to the sonic signature, many brands can concentrate on other aspects of speaker production without having to bother with the difficult, expensive and  often frustrating effort at getting FLAT FR.  Moreover, they believe that if ALL speaker brands start to come out with really FLAT FR speakers, there'd be no sonic distinction between these speaker brands. A marketing nightmare.   Because a really FLAT FR speaker has no sonic signature, no timber.  In short, it would have no defining sonic characteristic to distinguish it from other equally FLAT FR speakers.  Timber matching would no longer exist, as brand A and brand B, being identically FLAT would have the same sonic trait.

To them, the ultimate goal is not to make the speaker reproduce the recording accurately,
but to reproduce excellent, palpably real sound, that is not limited by the fidelity
of the recording.  They want to go beyond what was recorded and 'simulate' a beautiful
live performance even if the live performance really sounded crappy.

The result of these frequency response manipulations can actually make the reproduced sound
'larger than life' much like 'drama' can move you more into tears than 'real life'. 
Of course it is not what is really accurate, and many purists will argue that the practice
is not hi-fi, but if it achieves the ultimate goal of 'touching lives' or 'touching the soul',
like what a 'live performance' is supposed to do, then why not? 

You echoe the design philosophy of Franco Serblin of Sonus Faber almost to a T.   To him, crafting a speaker is like crafting a Stradivarius violin.  It is more an ART than a science. His philosophy is aimed at pleasing the ears through ART.  Not to the science-based Hi-fi standards.  And that is why Sonus goes to great lengths to make their products not only pleasing to the ears, but also pleasing to the eye.  The result is as much a wonderful piece of furniture as it is a musical instrument that together make them heirloom-grade.

I have nothing against such design philosophies in speakers.  As anywhere else, the hobby  is divided between subjectivists and objectivists.  Between the Euphonic and the Hi-Fi.  True Hi-Fi aims for fidelity to the recorded information with nothing added or subtracted along the audio chain all the way to the speakers and room accoustics.  And that means FLAT frequency response to begin with.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Hi-fidelity aims to minimize or control as much as possible the many VARIABLES that enter the playback chain so that the end result is pure fidelity to the recorded information. 

OTH, aiming to be Euphonic, then you can manipulate the signals to whatever the designer feels give "drama" and "larger then life" attributes to the signal.  The philosophy certainly caters to the ears and the subjective biases of the listener on what he personally considers as giving him emotional highs when listening.  There is nothing Hi fidelity about this philosophy.  By manipulating the FR performance of a speaker to give it oomph or drama  the speakers create another VARIABLE in the home playback and reproduction process.   It's guaranted you'll never hear exactly how the recorded information was meant to sound.  Aiming to be euphonic by emphasizing or de-emphasing this or that part of the audio spectrum has it limits as you can never be euphonic for all types of musical genre.  As a result there's a good chance that this design philosophy will result in speakers that sound good in Jazz, but sound not as good as another with a different emphasis/de-emphasis elsewhere in heavy classics.  Which is why using such speakers, you could end up with one set for each musical genre you like to hear.  If you can afford it, why not?  It's just another road to your sonic nirvana. 

[aHobbit]

To them, the ultimate goal is not to make the speaker reproduce the recording accurately,
but to reproduce excellent, palpably real sound, that is not limited by the fidelity
of the recording.  They want to go beyond what was recorded and 'simulate' a beautiful
live performance even if the live performance really sounded crappy.

...it achieves the ultimate goal of 'touching lives' or 'touching the soul',
like what a 'live performance' is supposed to do, then why not?  

I envy BOSE! 

As always, it has high WAF -Wife acceptance factor! 

I think BOSE is not alone - what about speaker cable company like monster?   

The WILL-BUY-WHAT-I-WANT buyer from WILL-SELL-WHAT-YOU-WANT seller economics ! 

Hey, we do not look for speaker with flat response! We look for speakers with listenable musical sounds! 

Who needs accurate/flat response? - the recording studio! 

Accurate (or flat if you may) speaker will only have you sell them in a short time after finding that all your music materials were recorded crap!      The best speaker could be the one that makes beautiful music out of all crap recording!

Amplifier just do the same - that's why you have following of tube amps - with its varied signature! Take the amp distortion of your choice!   

[Kevlar]

In short, it would have no defining sonic characteristic to distinguish it from other equally FLAT FR speakers.  Timber matching would no longer exist, as brand A and brand B, being identically FLAT would have the same sonic trait.
 

This is a nightmare!!! I don't want this to happen... 
Surely, nobody wants his speakers to sound the same
as everyone else's speakers!  That would be
audio 'communism'! 

  just kidding!

You echoe the design philosophy of Franco Serblin of Sonus Faber almost to a T. 

Geez! I've never read anything about Franco Serblin (of Sonus Faber)
or any of  his sonic principles... We must be 'soul' mates... 
I guess I should be dumping my B&W's 600 s3's for Sonus Fabers which
can produce lovely music out of my crappy pop/rock CD's! 

[av_phile1]

This is a nightmare!!! I don't want this to happen... 
Surely, nobody wants his speakers to sound the same
as everyone else's speakers!  That would be
audio 'communism'! 

It's good manufacturers can NEVER ever come out with an ideal or truly transparent and neutral speakers.  The design and production effort and cost to do so begins to climb exponentially as you approach it.  And there's always a limit to where they can do that at the same time continue to price itself even within exotic markets.  That is why even among the most notably transparent, accurate and neutral speakers, there's still something left untouched or compromised to distinuish it sonically from the other.  Thus, every speaker brand or model, from the cheapest to the loftiest, still carry its own sonic signature or coloration, in varying degrees. 

[ATJr.]

This is a nightmare!!! I don't want this to happen... 
Surely, nobody wants his speakers to sound the same
as everyone else's speakers!  That would be
audio 'communism'! 

  just kidding!

to me the best speakers would be ones that make us forget that we are listening to the speakers, but to the music instead!

funny, but i have not yet met such a pair of speakers!

[Garp]

If the idea is to build a certain level of coloration to create more 'drama,' what factor then has more weight in the final sound reproduction of a speaker--the design or voicing of the speaker or its interaction with the room its in? Put differently, will an SF always sound 'essentially' an SF regardless of where you put it?

I guess there's no definitive answer but as a rule of thumb?

[av_phile1]

If the idea is to build a certain level of coloration to create more 'drama,' what factor then has more weight in the final sound reproduction of a speaker--the design or voicing of the speaker or its interaction with the room its in? Put differently, will an SF always sound 'essentially' an SF regardless of where you put it?

I guess there's no definitive answer but as a rule of thumb?

Different vendors would have a lot of options from which to choose to color their speakers, deliberately or not.  Speaker design is always the sum of compromises in this or that "factor."  It often depends on what they are willing to spend to design and build their speakers for a certain market price point.  And yes, in addtion to the speaker signature, room accoustics would further add to the coloration.  Any brand of speaker would sound differently in different rooms of different geometry and material, in varying degrees.

Just to illustrate.  The speaker cabinet's diffractive quality is one of the most telling factor that colours its sound.  Almost every designer knows that the more curved the cabinet edges are,  the less diffraction.  But making curved cabinets adds to the cost of production.  But it's also possible that part of the design paramter to attainr a certain frequency response curve require sharp edges to harness the diffractive quality where a certain range of frequencies can peak to give "drama" or emphasis to the driver's natural range.  So you get a speaker with sharp cabinet edges. 

[jerix]

People start to haved diminished hearing accuity by mid 20s, starting at 19khz.    By late 30s, they'll have greater difficulty hearing above 18khz.  I think this has been discussed elsewhere.  So enjoy your music while still in your prime. 

An audiophile listens to the sound, while a music lover listens to the music. If the above-quoted premise is true to the whole universe, then it is better to be a plain music lover. 

[aHobbit]

to me the best speakers would be ones that make us forget that we are listening to the speakers, but to the music instead!

funny, but i have not yet met such a pair of speakers!

he he he 

When I want to be awake, I listen to the speakers!     

When I want to sleep, I listen to the music!